The main issue is ya'll are not seeing the same levels of "trash" I am. I can assure you from the way you talk about it.
I have been in numerous games where playing a support is basically supporting soldiers who do not land shots, at all. Supporting tanks who never make their way onto the point. Supporting defense who are trying (and failing) to flank. Supporting all of the above who dive into the enemy team alone trying to make something happen, which the whole team needs to do, and then dying and they are the only one you really needed to "support" for most of the game. The main thing being, sustainability is awesome and is often what the teams I lose on LACK, but also you can't always fix it if they don't allow themselves to BE sustained.
The assumption the other team is trash is also a point that keeps being made. You keep missing the fact that, at these low of rankings, the TYPE of trash they are varies so greatly sometimes they are the right kind of trash to win and your team is not. There might be teams that just aren't good at FPS but at least perform the fundamentals. That will win over teams that might shit all over them, but just flat out refuse to do it in the right situations needed to win that map.
I extend the offer for anyone to queue with me for a fair number of games, if you would like to show me what you mean
I guess I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. Are you persistently hovering at a low rank with no hope of ever going higher? Is that because your win/loss ratio at this ranking is 50% or lower? If so then you should entertain the possibility that you're at the correct rank. Either that or you haven't played that many comp games, in which case you're just expecting too much from a small sample size. All the unfair things you've pointed out are valid, but they aren't slanted against you, it's the same for everyone. So you're going to lose some bad games, and you're going to win some bad games - it's the ones that are actually fair that dictate what your final rank is, and there's where you should focus your introspection so you can raise your rank as quickly as possible. And be careful not to assume that you're in a hopeless game too soon and stop trying, because it might actually be a fair game in disguise.
In any case I really don't think you should play competitive if you're going to become so frustrated with hopeless games. I don't like it either, that's why I play QM these days. It's just less stressful.
If you are better than your rank, than the law of averages is on your side. It's as simple as that, and is true for any game with an Elo system, team-based or not. If you really want to climb, ignore your rank and focus on self improvement. The only time your teammate's actions should come into your consideration is when you're trying to figure out how best to respond to them in-game. If you play every game constantly thinking "my teammates are all trash" then you dilute your focus and ignore any responsibility you had for the outcome of the game, and your own contribution is the only part you can really control.
If you actually want to improve your own play, I very much recommend Skyline's youtube channel. This guy puts out by far the most useful Overwatch content that I've seen, and his advice has helped me improve my own play significantly.
Also, as Zek said, if your teammates in ranked really upset you that much, I would strongly consider taking a break. Give yourself some time to reset your mentality and come back fresh. A negative attitude in-game will just make you have less fun and play worse.
I've faced those 3 on Kings row defense. We managed to stop them at the last corner with Rein, Orisa .... and bastion. a real meatgrinder where shields uptime was 2-3 seconds max.
If you are better than your rank, than the law of averages is on your side. It's as simple as that, and is true for any game with an Elo system, team-based or not. If you really want to climb, ignore your rank and focus on self improvement. The only time your teammate's actions should come into your consideration is when you're trying to figure out how best to respond to them in-game. If you play every game constantly thinking "my teammates are all trash" then you dilute your focus and ignore any responsibility you had for the outcome of the game, and your own contribution is the only part you can really control.
If you actually want to improve your own play, I very much recommend Skyline's youtube channel. This guy puts out by far the most useful Overwatch content that I've seen, and his advice has helped me improve my own play significantly.
Also, as Zek said, if your teammates in ranked really upset you that much, I would strongly consider taking a break. Give yourself some time to reset your mentality and come back fresh. A negative attitude in-game will just make you have less fun and play worse.
I've done a lot to improve my own play and I've gotten a lot better.
This games seasons are p much whatever games it drags you into during placement, unless you have a solid group of people to play with. If you get stuck with trash in half of your placement games, then most of your season will be spent digging yourself out of it.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Kind of wish it was easy to save and upload matches so advice could be given.
Like I said, I may have just been getting the short end of the matchmaking stick lately, but I can show a screen shot of the everyone on the other team being around 130-160, and my team being 25-70, with myself being the exception.
You can sometimes deal with bad team comps by backfilling what it is you're missing, but when your comp is reaper/hanzo/genji/mcree/junkrat, I now have to choose whether I am the only tank, or the only healer. Also, people that die constantly like new people tend to just end up feeding ults. It's hard to do anything useful if the enemy hanzo manages to get 4 ults off in 3:30 minutes because people just keep trickling into bridge at the start of dorado
Lately I've been hoping I get the people who instalock bastion like everyone on the overwatch subreddit bitches about, because at least we'll have a sudo-tank and I can try to go healer
In that situation I suggest going healer and asking a few times for someone to go tank. Easier than the other way around. Lucio is your best bet since he can survive fairly well without a tank.
Bad luck happens for sure, sometimes a game is doomed from the start because of a matchmaking snafu or a leaver. But player level doesn't mean anything, it isn't factored into matchmaking at all for good reason. If you're consistently playing at a higher level, the system is designed to average out those discrepancies over time, it just can take a fair number of games if you're really unlucky.
I'm not saying that player level equates to any kind of skill, but playtime.
Like, someone said during a placement match that they had never seen Lijang Tower before. They had 15 total games up to that point.
I also had 5 leavers in 5 games during placement matches, all from accounts with less than 10 hours playtime. Did anyone here who placed in plat/diamond or higher even have 1 leaver game during placements?
There's playing with bad, but at least knowledgeable players, and there's playing with a team of all freshmen who though "hey, throwing that ball looks neat" while walking through the quad.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
The main issue is ya'll are not seeing the same levels of "trash" I am. I can assure you from the way you talk about it.
I have been in numerous games where playing a support is basically supporting soldiers who do not land shots, at all. Supporting tanks who never make their way onto the point. Supporting defense who are trying (and failing) to flank. Supporting all of the above who dive into the enemy team alone trying to make something happen, which the whole team needs to do, and then dying and they are the only one you really needed to "support" for most of the game. The main thing being, sustainability is awesome and is often what the teams I lose on LACK, but also you can't always fix it if they don't allow themselves to BE sustained.
The assumption the other team is trash is also a point that keeps being made. You keep missing the fact that, at these low of rankings, the TYPE of trash they are varies so greatly sometimes they are the right kind of trash to win and your team is not. There might be teams that just aren't good at FPS but at least perform the fundamentals. That will win over teams that might shit all over them, but just flat out refuse to do it in the right situations needed to win that map.
I extend the offer for anyone to queue with me for a fair number of games, if you would like to show me what you mean
I guess I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. Are you persistently hovering at a low rank with no hope of ever going higher? Is that because your win/loss ratio at this ranking is 50% or lower? If so then you should entertain the possibility that you're at the correct rank. Either that or you haven't played that many comp games, in which case you're just expecting too much from a small sample size. All the unfair things you've pointed out are valid, but they aren't slanted against you, it's the same for everyone. So you're going to lose some bad games, and you're going to win some bad games - it's the ones that are actually fair that dictate what your final rank is, and there's where you should focus your introspection so you can raise your rank as quickly as possible. And be careful not to assume that you're in a hopeless game too soon and stop trying, because it might actually be a fair game in disguise.
In any case I really don't think you should play competitive if you're going to become so frustrated with hopeless games. I don't like it either, that's why I play QM these days. It's just less stressful.
I guess I forgot how stubborn people around here are on their opinions of matchmaking here.
Look, you mistake wanting to have a discussion for frustration? I deal with my games pretty much in stride. In fact, like what Drag said if no one wants to actually Queue with me sometime and vouch for my "frustration" I may start recording some games. But the fact of the matter is, blindly trusting the system because it just should work that way is really short sighted. Especially when you are actually getting those fair games that dictate your rank. I have had maybe 2 of those out of 30 and the rest are stomps either way. I have seen those fair games, before placement decided I needed to be dumped 1000 rating lower even though I handled it fine before for a whole season.
And my rating does matter, because I would like to get a gold weapon at this point and since I missed season 2 I am quite far from that right now.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Like I said, I may have just been getting the short end of the matchmaking stick lately, but I can show a screen shot of the everyone on the other team being around 130-160, and my team being 25-70, with myself being the exception.
You can sometimes deal with bad team comps by backfilling what it is you're missing, but when your comp is reaper/hanzo/genji/mcree/junkrat, I now have to choose whether I am the only tank, or the only healer. Also, people that die constantly like new people tend to just end up feeding ults. It's hard to do anything useful if the enemy hanzo manages to get 4 ults off in 3:30 minutes because people just keep trickling into bridge at the start of dorado
Lately I've been hoping I get the people who instalock bastion like everyone on the overwatch subreddit bitches about, because at least we'll have a sudo-tank and I can try to go healer
In that situation I suggest going healer and asking a few times for someone to go tank. Easier than the other way around. Lucio is your best bet since he can survive fairly well without a tank.
Bad luck happens for sure, sometimes a game is doomed from the start because of a matchmaking snafu or a leaver. But player level doesn't mean anything, it isn't factored into matchmaking at all for good reason. If you're consistently playing at a higher level, the system is designed to average out those discrepancies over time, it just can take a fair number of games if you're really unlucky.
I'm not saying that player level equates to any kind of skill, but playtime.
Like, someone said during a placement match that they had never seen Lijang Tower before. They had 15 total games up to that point.
I also had 5 leavers in 5 games during placement matches, all from accounts with less than 10 hours playtime. Did anyone here who placed in plat/diamond or higher even have 1 leaver game during placements?
There's playing with bad, but at least knowledgeable players, and there's playing with a team of all freshmen who though "hey, throwing that ball looks neat" while walking through the quad.
I had 2 games, 2 placement games, 2 separate games with 4 different players, who went Hanzo and Widow.
So our team comp included 2 snipers. In 2 separate goddamned placement matches.
Despite pleading for them to change after being down 0-2 both times, neither changed and, in fact, told us they were carrying the team.
You have to consider how many games it would take to actually shift ranking
If you're averaging a 50% win rate with average SR gains (+25 for a win) and slightly below average SR losses (-20 on loss), it would take you 200 games to hit the next rank
Those calculations change a bit if you have a higher winrate or are gaining more SR when you win than average, but if you're sitting in Gold with a Platinum player's skill, the system is not designed to catapult you into your proper rank like it is for, say, a Masters player in Bronze
If you watch one of those "Bronze to Grandmaster" series, the early ranks go by in just a few games, because the person playing is so significantly better than the average player of that rank that they are able to effectively carry and guarantee wins. It's when that skill difference narrows that their progression slows down, and that slower progression should be what you should expect from the system.
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited March 2017
After 3 clutch Bastion games, I've come to the conclusion that I'm really good with that bastard.
Also, it appears I'm the only one on the entire spreadsheet that actively enjoys playing as B.
Surprising people and never going into turret mode an entire match is wonderful. They keep holding back and waiting to counter something that never happens.
I play a lot with my brother, who is usually low plat. When we group, I end up frustrated fairly frequently because I'm usually the worst or 2nd player on the team, and I know it. Sometimes we get bad comps but at least it's people playing the character well (like a flanker tracer/reaper), they just don't work with the team. The frustration I get is due to me not always being able to cut it at that skill level, magnified by playing a lot of support or tank. At this level of play, I would probably benefit from rewatching games and looking at what I did wrong or could have done better.
At the rank I'm at right now (1900), it's a different kind of frustration. This frustration is basically trying to carry the team and just repeatedly having your back broken by people who instalock hanzo/reaper/genji/tracer, can't get kills, don't use comms, and barely know maps.
If you are better than your rank, than the law of averages is on your side. It's as simple as that, and is true for any game with an Elo system, team-based or not. If you really want to climb, ignore your rank and focus on self improvement. The only time your teammate's actions should come into your consideration is when you're trying to figure out how best to respond to them in-game. If you play every game constantly thinking "my teammates are all trash" then you dilute your focus and ignore any responsibility you had for the outcome of the game, and your own contribution is the only part you can really control.
If you actually want to improve your own play, I very much recommend Skyline's youtube channel. This guy puts out by far the most useful Overwatch content that I've seen, and his advice has helped me improve my own play significantly.
Also, as Zek said, if your teammates in ranked really upset you that much, I would strongly consider taking a break. Give yourself some time to reset your mentality and come back fresh. A negative attitude in-game will just make you have less fun and play worse.
I've done a lot to improve my own play and I've gotten a lot better.
This games seasons are p much whatever games it drags you into during placement, unless you have a solid group of people to play with. If you get stuck with trash in half of your placement games, then most of your season will be spent digging yourself out of it.
I placed in mid to high silver and have had no problem steadily climbing to gold.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
If you are better than your rank, than the law of averages is on your side. It's as simple as that, and is true for any game with an Elo system, team-based or not. If you really want to climb, ignore your rank and focus on self improvement. The only time your teammate's actions should come into your consideration is when you're trying to figure out how best to respond to them in-game. If you play every game constantly thinking "my teammates are all trash" then you dilute your focus and ignore any responsibility you had for the outcome of the game, and your own contribution is the only part you can really control.
If you actually want to improve your own play, I very much recommend Skyline's youtube channel. This guy puts out by far the most useful Overwatch content that I've seen, and his advice has helped me improve my own play significantly.
Also, as Zek said, if your teammates in ranked really upset you that much, I would strongly consider taking a break. Give yourself some time to reset your mentality and come back fresh. A negative attitude in-game will just make you have less fun and play worse.
I've done a lot to improve my own play and I've gotten a lot better.
This games seasons are p much whatever games it drags you into during placement, unless you have a solid group of people to play with. If you get stuck with trash in half of your placement games, then most of your season will be spent digging yourself out of it.
I placed in mid to high silver and have had no problem steadily climbing to gold.
And that's fine, if you're willing to dole out a couple hundred games during the season.
I guess if you're not planning on doing 2-300+ games then you might as well not even bother?
If you are better than your rank, than the law of averages is on your side. It's as simple as that, and is true for any game with an Elo system, team-based or not. If you really want to climb, ignore your rank and focus on self improvement. The only time your teammate's actions should come into your consideration is when you're trying to figure out how best to respond to them in-game. If you play every game constantly thinking "my teammates are all trash" then you dilute your focus and ignore any responsibility you had for the outcome of the game, and your own contribution is the only part you can really control.
If you actually want to improve your own play, I very much recommend Skyline's youtube channel. This guy puts out by far the most useful Overwatch content that I've seen, and his advice has helped me improve my own play significantly.
Also, as Zek said, if your teammates in ranked really upset you that much, I would strongly consider taking a break. Give yourself some time to reset your mentality and come back fresh. A negative attitude in-game will just make you have less fun and play worse.
I've done a lot to improve my own play and I've gotten a lot better.
This games seasons are p much whatever games it drags you into during placement, unless you have a solid group of people to play with. If you get stuck with trash in half of your placement games, then most of your season will be spent digging yourself out of it.
I placed in mid to high silver and have had no problem steadily climbing to gold.
And that's fine, if you're willing to dole out a couple hundred games during the season.
I guess if you're not planning on doing 2-300+ games then you might as well not even bother?
I have played 86 games so far.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
If you actually want to improve your own play, I very much recommend Skyline's youtube channel. This guy puts out by far the most useful Overwatch content that I've seen, and his advice has helped me improve my own play significantly.
Thanks for that suggestion. I have been watching Stylosa's Unit Lost videos which I like and was going to start looking for some others.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
I'm going to do a quick post to try and explain why "MMR Hell" appears to exist.
The blurb is that the lower MMR you get, the more varied the skillsets become, and the harder it is for the matchmaking to pair people together because of their different strengths. By comparison, at high levels, because everyone is roughly similarly capable, it has a much easier time. I have wasted 20 minutes in paint making an awful visual aid:
To put it simply, there are different types of things to be good at. 6 is not an exhaustive number of skills, I just picked it because hexagons are cool and I could easily come up with 6 obvious skills.
Aim is self-explanatory.
Character knowledge indicates your knowledge of all characters and how well they match up. e.g. can a Symmetra beat a Winston, who is a good response to an enemy Pharah, which character is a good pick on this map, etc.
Movement & positioning both include micro-movement (knowing how to mini-strafe to make it harder for enemies to predict your movement) and knowing how to use mobility skills to your advantage.
Map knowledge is knowing which routes are optimal entries (especially with the comp you're running), which chokes are grindiest, which spots are good for certain characters like junkrot, widow, and so on.
Team awareness is things like not trickling, knowing where your healer is, recognising where your team is (or isn't) trying to push through, and generally understanding what your comp is trying to do (or not, at lower levels).
Role knowledge is tied into comp awareness, e.g. what is your character doing for the team. This is a constant hiccup for lower MMR players and is why you see 4-dps comps with Genji, Hanzo, Sombra and Symmetra, +tank&healer. Everyone wants to be the flashy +1 role, not the workhorse.
And you can see from the examples I've given that there are some low MMR players who have good aim, maybe even aim close to as good as a high MMR player. But that is not supported by other skills, and so they'll do things like run in solo and trade, or won't protect healers, etc. Or you've got people who can't really aim, but have good general knowledge (they read/watch a lot of higher MMR play, for example). Ultimately, however, while each player might have something they're good at, they're lacking in other areas. And the matchmaker can't determine this about a player, so what you'll often get is several of these players together who all can't really do well in one particular skill. When they get put in a group like that, where 2 or 3 members are lacking a key skill, their chance of winning is low. But equally the matchmaker might just, by chance, find other players who can cover up the lack of e.g. aim, and the team's chance of winning rises.
You can think of an individual player's MMR as the total light blue area covered, and matchmaking variance as the total light blue area covered when all 6 players are put together. With the much more 'specialised' layouts in low MMR, there's more of a chance that the entire team will be lacking in one or two skills. But by comparison, if you imagine 6 high MMR players, it's much more likely all bases will be covered, because all players above say, 3.5k, are decent at almost everything.
There are obviously other things I didn't include for the sake of simplicity (favoured characters and roles, harmoniousness, use of voice comms and appropriate knowledge, effects of character imbalances, and so on), but the general model of understanding has served me pretty well for the last 7 or so years of try-hard gaming.
Why the fuck are premades allowed in placement games? Was doing wonderful until I kept getting premade idiots refusing to switch and being garbage. Not to mentions randoms vs 4 stack twice. Started off so well though maybe I should just 1 vs 6 while I tank heal dps at the same time.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I've come around to find that a premade of 3, 4, or 5 people is probably a bigger chance of losing than anything else. They reinforce each others' bad decisions or stubborness. But also, more than anything, when there's a pre-made of 4 or 5 people, they are in the party voice comm and not with the rest of us / me. Some 5-sized pre-made groups get mad at ME when we lose asking why I wasn't going along with the team's 'plan'. Well I never heard it in the first place, goose.
Why the fuck are premades allowed in placement games? Was doing wonderful until I kept getting premade idiots refusing to switch and being garbage. Not to mentions randoms vs 4 stack twice. Started off so well though maybe I should just 1 vs 6 while I tank heal dps at the same time.
Because some of us like running placements with friends to lessen the chance of leavers and throwers?
Or, just because we like playing games with friends, because we like our friends and it's good times to game with them. Really that's all the reason needed.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Why the fuck are premades allowed in placement games? Was doing wonderful until I kept getting premade idiots refusing to switch and being garbage. Not to mentions randoms vs 4 stack twice. Started off so well though maybe I should just 1 vs 6 while I tank heal dps at the same time.
Because some of us like running placements with friends to lessen the chance of leavers and throwers?
Or, just because we like playing games with friends, because we like our friends and it's good times to game with them. Really that's all the reason needed.
If that's all the reason that was needed then you would be happy with premades in QP only, right?
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Premades in lower MMR are almost always guaranteed win factories.
Part of the reason MMR hell exists.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
I've come around to find that a premade of 3, 4, or 5 people is probably a bigger chance of losing than anything else. They reinforce each others' bad decisions or stubborness. But also, more than anything, when there's a pre-made of 4 or 5 people, they are in the party voice comm and not with the rest of us / me. Some 5-sized pre-made groups get mad at ME when we lose asking why I wasn't going along with the team's 'plan'. Well I never heard it in the first place, goose.
Yeah. Pre-mades only really work if everyone is on the same page.
I've come around to find that a premade of 3, 4, or 5 people is probably a bigger chance of losing than anything else. They reinforce each others' bad decisions or stubborness. But also, more than anything, when there's a pre-made of 4 or 5 people, they are in the party voice comm and not with the rest of us / me. Some 5-sized pre-made groups get mad at ME when we lose asking why I wasn't going along with the team's 'plan'. Well I never heard it in the first place, goose.
Yeah. Pre-mades only really work if everyone is on the same page.
Otherwise they go south fast.
Depends on MMR.
On the lower MMR levels, especially people who get screwed by the placement matches, teams are more likely to voice chat to each other. Communication is huge, and in all of my losses but 1 it's been absolutely radio silent, or the perpetrators (like the sniper duos I got in placements as mentioned above) used it only to berate people or shit talk their own team.
At those levels, getting a team with voice chat is difficult. Getting them to communicate whats actually happening is damn near miraculous. None of that helps when you're trying to get yourself out of the hole.
One of the reasons I stopped playing Overwatch for a while is I couldn't communicate with my team and felt like a liability. Now I have a headset and I *know* I was a liability.
jungleroomx on
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Hell, last night I had a game where this one guy was flipping out on everyone for not contributing.
What did he do?
Died constantly as McCree for 3 rounds until he managed to get off a POTG-style 4 person kill with his ult and used that as evidence that he was superior.
I really wish I had y'alls matches.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Also I will say being a person who isn't completely terrible I do understand some folks unwillingness to communicate over voice comms while also wanting to play comp.
While there are a lot of folks who are cool and helpful, a lot of toxic asshole who can ruin your day too.
Also I will say being a person who isn't completely terrible I do understand some folks unwillingness to communicate over voice comms while also wanting to play comp.
While there are a lot of folks who are cool and helpful, a lot of toxic asshole who can ruin your day too.
Yeah, but if your team is currently cool and helpful but you're just being a Hanzo Main...
Why the fuck are premades allowed in placement games? Was doing wonderful until I kept getting premade idiots refusing to switch and being garbage. Not to mentions randoms vs 4 stack twice. Started off so well though maybe I should just 1 vs 6 while I tank heal dps at the same time.
Because some of us like running placements with friends to lessen the chance of leavers and throwers?
Or, just because we like playing games with friends, because we like our friends and it's good times to game with them. Really that's all the reason needed.
If that's all the reason that was needed then you would be happy with premades in QP only, right?
No, because quick play isn't the same game as competitive, and its pretty silly to assert they are.
Why the fuck are premades allowed in placement games? Was doing wonderful until I kept getting premade idiots refusing to switch and being garbage. Not to mentions randoms vs 4 stack twice. Started off so well though maybe I should just 1 vs 6 while I tank heal dps at the same time.
I like this post.
I do think, one important wrinkle, is Blizzard does have some idea of your aim and uses it to judge your skill. I think that does color somewhat how the game plays at a few levels. People with good aim but poor other skills are disproportionately likely to end up ranking higher. Then they spend entire games out of position and accomplishing very little.
On the other end, down lower, greater than average number of people can't aim at all. I suspect thats why its so frustrating as support lower down. You can heal and damage boost for ages, but your poor aiming teammates can never take advantage of it.
I think the best attitude to take towards competitive is that you're just there to find more serious games, and to discover in the long run where you fall in the ranks. Don't attribute more importance to winning/losing a given game than you would in QP (other than trying your best to win). If you enter it with the mindset of "I want to increase my rank right away" then every loss is a setback from your goal and you're going to get frustrated when you have a bad luck steak and your night was wasted. Just play the game and have fun. Rank is a nice high level goal but don't make everything about that. Or if you must, focus your energies on how best to improve your play, not just on winning games.
I think the best attitude to take towards competitive is that you're just there to find more serious games, and to discover in the long run where you fall in the ranks. Don't attribute more importance to winning/losing a given game than you would in QP (other than trying your best to win). If you enter it with the mindset of "I want to increase my rank right away" then every loss is a setback from your goal and you're going to get frustrated when you have a bad luck steak and your night was wasted. Just play the game and have fun. Rank is a nice high level goal but don't make everything about that. Or if you must, focus your energies on how best to improve your play, not just on winning games.
All this conversation mostly is making me quite happy about my decision to never touch competitive with a ten foot pole.
If I knew what I know now, I wouldn't have gotten involved with competitive mode. But I was driven to try it because at the time I thought I was a REALLY good player with my win rate and such.
I'm going to do a quick post to try and explain why "MMR Hell" appears to exist.
The blurb is that the lower MMR you get, the more varied the skillsets become, and the harder it is for the matchmaking to pair people together because of their different strengths. By comparison, at high levels, because everyone is roughly similarly capable, it has a much easier time. I have wasted 20 minutes in paint making an awful visual aid:
To put it simply, there are different types of things to be good at. 6 is not an exhaustive number of skills, I just picked it because hexagons are cool and I could easily come up with 6 obvious skills.
Aim is self-explanatory.
Character knowledge indicates your knowledge of all characters and how well they match up. e.g. can a Symmetra beat a Winston, who is a good response to an enemy Pharah, which character is a good pick on this map, etc.
Movement & positioning both include micro-movement (knowing how to mini-strafe to make it harder for enemies to predict your movement) and knowing how to use mobility skills to your advantage.
Map knowledge is knowing which routes are optimal entries (especially with the comp you're running), which chokes are grindiest, which spots are good for certain characters like junkrot, widow, and so on.
Team awareness is things like not trickling, knowing where your healer is, recognising where your team is (or isn't) trying to push through, and generally understanding what your comp is trying to do (or not, at lower levels).
Role knowledge is tied into comp awareness, e.g. what is your character doing for the team. This is a constant hiccup for lower MMR players and is why you see 4-dps comps with Genji, Hanzo, Sombra and Symmetra, +tank&healer. Everyone wants to be the flashy +1 role, not the workhorse.
And you can see from the examples I've given that there are some low MMR players who have good aim, maybe even aim close to as good as a high MMR player. But that is not supported by other skills, and so they'll do things like run in solo and trade, or won't protect healers, etc. Or you've got people who can't really aim, but have good general knowledge (they read/watch a lot of higher MMR play, for example). Ultimately, however, while each player might have something they're good at, they're lacking in other areas. And the matchmaker can't determine this about a player, so what you'll often get is several of these players together who all can't really do well in one particular skill. When they get put in a group like that, where 2 or 3 members are lacking a key skill, their chance of winning is low. But equally the matchmaker might just, by chance, find other players who can cover up the lack of e.g. aim, and the team's chance of winning rises.
You can think of an individual player's MMR as the total light blue area covered, and matchmaking variance as the total light blue area covered when all 6 players are put together. With the much more 'specialised' layouts in low MMR, there's more of a chance that the entire team will be lacking in one or two skills. But by comparison, if you imagine 6 high MMR players, it's much more likely all bases will be covered, because all players above say, 3.5k, are decent at almost everything.
There are obviously other things I didn't include for the sake of simplicity (favoured characters and roles, harmoniousness, use of voice comms and appropriate knowledge, effects of character imbalances, and so on), but the general model of understanding has served me pretty well for the last 7 or so years of try-hard gaming.
Looks like in order to get out of low MMR you have to be really damn good or just not get placed there in the first place. Under this theory, wouldn't that mean that bronze is a chaotic slum with a thin strip of silver and most people gold and up?
This games seasons are p much whatever games it drags you into during placement, unless you have a solid group of people to play with. If you get stuck with trash in half of your placement games, then most of your season will be spent digging yourself out of it.
See, I don't think this is really true. There's a lot going on behind the scenes in the ranking system, especially during placements. The matchmaker knows what matches you 'should' and 'shouldn't win based on the teams in placements, and so losing games with 'trash teammates' really isn't as detrimental to your placement as you probably think it is. Anecdotally, I only won 2 of my placement games this season. I didn't play comp last season. Sounds like I'm totally screwed, right?
I got placed at 3.3k, which was I think a very good estimation of my real rank at that time.
All the people I know who were well and truly placed below their rank and who play consistently have also climbed consistently. Again, I recommend ignoring your rank and just doing your best to improve your own play.
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I guess I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. Are you persistently hovering at a low rank with no hope of ever going higher? Is that because your win/loss ratio at this ranking is 50% or lower? If so then you should entertain the possibility that you're at the correct rank. Either that or you haven't played that many comp games, in which case you're just expecting too much from a small sample size. All the unfair things you've pointed out are valid, but they aren't slanted against you, it's the same for everyone. So you're going to lose some bad games, and you're going to win some bad games - it's the ones that are actually fair that dictate what your final rank is, and there's where you should focus your introspection so you can raise your rank as quickly as possible. And be careful not to assume that you're in a hopeless game too soon and stop trying, because it might actually be a fair game in disguise.
In any case I really don't think you should play competitive if you're going to become so frustrated with hopeless games. I don't like it either, that's why I play QM these days. It's just less stressful.
If you actually want to improve your own play, I very much recommend Skyline's youtube channel. This guy puts out by far the most useful Overwatch content that I've seen, and his advice has helped me improve my own play significantly.
Also, as Zek said, if your teammates in ranked really upset you that much, I would strongly consider taking a break. Give yourself some time to reset your mentality and come back fresh. A negative attitude in-game will just make you have less fun and play worse.
Yeah... Rein and Orissa are a strong combo
I've done a lot to improve my own play and I've gotten a lot better.
This games seasons are p much whatever games it drags you into during placement, unless you have a solid group of people to play with. If you get stuck with trash in half of your placement games, then most of your season will be spent digging yourself out of it.
I'm not saying that player level equates to any kind of skill, but playtime.
Like, someone said during a placement match that they had never seen Lijang Tower before. They had 15 total games up to that point.
I also had 5 leavers in 5 games during placement matches, all from accounts with less than 10 hours playtime. Did anyone here who placed in plat/diamond or higher even have 1 leaver game during placements?
There's playing with bad, but at least knowledgeable players, and there's playing with a team of all freshmen who though "hey, throwing that ball looks neat" while walking through the quad.
I guess I forgot how stubborn people around here are on their opinions of matchmaking here.
Look, you mistake wanting to have a discussion for frustration? I deal with my games pretty much in stride. In fact, like what Drag said if no one wants to actually Queue with me sometime and vouch for my "frustration" I may start recording some games. But the fact of the matter is, blindly trusting the system because it just should work that way is really short sighted. Especially when you are actually getting those fair games that dictate your rank. I have had maybe 2 of those out of 30 and the rest are stomps either way. I have seen those fair games, before placement decided I needed to be dumped 1000 rating lower even though I handled it fine before for a whole season.
And my rating does matter, because I would like to get a gold weapon at this point and since I missed season 2 I am quite far from that right now.
I had 2 games, 2 placement games, 2 separate games with 4 different players, who went Hanzo and Widow.
So our team comp included 2 snipers. In 2 separate goddamned placement matches.
Despite pleading for them to change after being down 0-2 both times, neither changed and, in fact, told us they were carrying the team.
I feel your frustration.
If you're averaging a 50% win rate with average SR gains (+25 for a win) and slightly below average SR losses (-20 on loss), it would take you 200 games to hit the next rank
Those calculations change a bit if you have a higher winrate or are gaining more SR when you win than average, but if you're sitting in Gold with a Platinum player's skill, the system is not designed to catapult you into your proper rank like it is for, say, a Masters player in Bronze
If you watch one of those "Bronze to Grandmaster" series, the early ranks go by in just a few games, because the person playing is so significantly better than the average player of that rank that they are able to effectively carry and guarantee wins. It's when that skill difference narrows that their progression slows down, and that slower progression should be what you should expect from the system.
My Steam
Also, it appears I'm the only one on the entire spreadsheet that actively enjoys playing as B.
Surprising people and never going into turret mode an entire match is wonderful. They keep holding back and waiting to counter something that never happens.
I play a lot with my brother, who is usually low plat. When we group, I end up frustrated fairly frequently because I'm usually the worst or 2nd player on the team, and I know it. Sometimes we get bad comps but at least it's people playing the character well (like a flanker tracer/reaper), they just don't work with the team. The frustration I get is due to me not always being able to cut it at that skill level, magnified by playing a lot of support or tank. At this level of play, I would probably benefit from rewatching games and looking at what I did wrong or could have done better.
At the rank I'm at right now (1900), it's a different kind of frustration. This frustration is basically trying to carry the team and just repeatedly having your back broken by people who instalock hanzo/reaper/genji/tracer, can't get kills, don't use comms, and barely know maps.
I placed in mid to high silver and have had no problem steadily climbing to gold.
And that's fine, if you're willing to dole out a couple hundred games during the season.
I guess if you're not planning on doing 2-300+ games then you might as well not even bother?
I have played 86 games so far.
Thanks for that suggestion. I have been watching Stylosa's Unit Lost videos which I like and was going to start looking for some others.
The blurb is that the lower MMR you get, the more varied the skillsets become, and the harder it is for the matchmaking to pair people together because of their different strengths. By comparison, at high levels, because everyone is roughly similarly capable, it has a much easier time. I have wasted 20 minutes in paint making an awful visual aid:
To put it simply, there are different types of things to be good at. 6 is not an exhaustive number of skills, I just picked it because hexagons are cool and I could easily come up with 6 obvious skills.
Aim is self-explanatory.
Character knowledge indicates your knowledge of all characters and how well they match up. e.g. can a Symmetra beat a Winston, who is a good response to an enemy Pharah, which character is a good pick on this map, etc.
Movement & positioning both include micro-movement (knowing how to mini-strafe to make it harder for enemies to predict your movement) and knowing how to use mobility skills to your advantage.
Map knowledge is knowing which routes are optimal entries (especially with the comp you're running), which chokes are grindiest, which spots are good for certain characters like junkrot, widow, and so on.
Team awareness is things like not trickling, knowing where your healer is, recognising where your team is (or isn't) trying to push through, and generally understanding what your comp is trying to do (or not, at lower levels).
Role knowledge is tied into comp awareness, e.g. what is your character doing for the team. This is a constant hiccup for lower MMR players and is why you see 4-dps comps with Genji, Hanzo, Sombra and Symmetra, +tank&healer. Everyone wants to be the flashy +1 role, not the workhorse.
And you can see from the examples I've given that there are some low MMR players who have good aim, maybe even aim close to as good as a high MMR player. But that is not supported by other skills, and so they'll do things like run in solo and trade, or won't protect healers, etc. Or you've got people who can't really aim, but have good general knowledge (they read/watch a lot of higher MMR play, for example). Ultimately, however, while each player might have something they're good at, they're lacking in other areas. And the matchmaker can't determine this about a player, so what you'll often get is several of these players together who all can't really do well in one particular skill. When they get put in a group like that, where 2 or 3 members are lacking a key skill, their chance of winning is low. But equally the matchmaker might just, by chance, find other players who can cover up the lack of e.g. aim, and the team's chance of winning rises.
You can think of an individual player's MMR as the total light blue area covered, and matchmaking variance as the total light blue area covered when all 6 players are put together. With the much more 'specialised' layouts in low MMR, there's more of a chance that the entire team will be lacking in one or two skills. But by comparison, if you imagine 6 high MMR players, it's much more likely all bases will be covered, because all players above say, 3.5k, are decent at almost everything.
There are obviously other things I didn't include for the sake of simplicity (favoured characters and roles, harmoniousness, use of voice comms and appropriate knowledge, effects of character imbalances, and so on), but the general model of understanding has served me pretty well for the last 7 or so years of try-hard gaming.
Because some of us like running placements with friends to lessen the chance of leavers and throwers?
Or, just because we like playing games with friends, because we like our friends and it's good times to game with them. Really that's all the reason needed.
If that's all the reason that was needed then you would be happy with premades in QP only, right?
Part of the reason MMR hell exists.
Yeah. Pre-mades only really work if everyone is on the same page.
Otherwise they go south fast.
Depends on MMR.
On the lower MMR levels, especially people who get screwed by the placement matches, teams are more likely to voice chat to each other. Communication is huge, and in all of my losses but 1 it's been absolutely radio silent, or the perpetrators (like the sniper duos I got in placements as mentioned above) used it only to berate people or shit talk their own team.
At those levels, getting a team with voice chat is difficult. Getting them to communicate whats actually happening is damn near miraculous. None of that helps when you're trying to get yourself out of the hole.
One of the reasons I stopped playing Overwatch for a while is I couldn't communicate with my team and felt like a liability. Now I have a headset and I *know* I was a liability.
What did he do?
Died constantly as McCree for 3 rounds until he managed to get off a POTG-style 4 person kill with his ult and used that as evidence that he was superior.
I really wish I had y'alls matches.
While there are a lot of folks who are cool and helpful, a lot of toxic asshole who can ruin your day too.
Yeah, but if your team is currently cool and helpful but you're just being a Hanzo Main...
No, because quick play isn't the same game as competitive, and its pretty silly to assert they are.
Yeah I just came back and having my good start go sour so fast is what has me on tilt right now.
Will try thanks.
Looks like in order to get out of low MMR you have to be really damn good or just not get placed there in the first place. Under this theory, wouldn't that mean that bronze is a chaotic slum with a thin strip of silver and most people gold and up?
See, I don't think this is really true. There's a lot going on behind the scenes in the ranking system, especially during placements. The matchmaker knows what matches you 'should' and 'shouldn't win based on the teams in placements, and so losing games with 'trash teammates' really isn't as detrimental to your placement as you probably think it is. Anecdotally, I only won 2 of my placement games this season. I didn't play comp last season. Sounds like I'm totally screwed, right?
I got placed at 3.3k, which was I think a very good estimation of my real rank at that time.
All the people I know who were well and truly placed below their rank and who play consistently have also climbed consistently. Again, I recommend ignoring your rank and just doing your best to improve your own play.