Civil Unions are not the same thing as marriage and do not afford the same rights as marriage in most states they exist. There are also many states that will not recognize civil unions or any union between gays either, even if another state does. So if you get a civil union in NJ then more to Arkansas, you're fucked.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
but the whole "separate but equal" thing is still insulting.
Marriage isn't yours, religion! it was around before you and will be around after you! give it back!
This is very true, but that doesn't mean they are wrong for finding the institution of Marriage sacred and therefore finding it necessary to defend it. Within the LDS church, the act of being married in the temple is the highest and most important ordinance you will ever perform in the church. Finding your eternal companion and being "sealed" (aka married but with eternal implications) is the last ordinance you need on this earth to ensure your progression in the next. Why shouldn't the church defend the institution of marriage?
to the church, being sealed in the temple is so so so different from just being married.
the mormon church has their own ceremonies that gays will never touch, they don't even use normal weddings, why not let homosexuals get married like everyone else.
no worries, gays won't become gods, they cannot be sealed, they won't enter the celestial kingdom, so why deny them marriage.
i mean, the mormon church does not even consider you really truly married unless you are sealed in the temple, so all of this is hot air being blown out their asses.
to marry something means to join it, and giving them a different word is beyond petty. it is telling children who take cues on how to treat people from their parents 'these people are worth less'
Yep. And nope. You're right that there are certain ceremonies most people will never be involved in in this life. BUT, the idea of marriage doesn't only contain temple marriage. The traditional family and the idea of marriage is what is trying to be defended here. That extends to those even not of our faith or of any faith at all. The church would LOVE and not lift a finger to fight (not sure if they would/wouldn't support, but I know ALOT of the members would) any law trying to be passed that gave gays/lesbians/transgender people the same rights found within marriage as long as it isn't considered marriage. The family, is found eternally (we believe there is a Heavenly Father and Mother) and as an eternal principle must be defended on the Earth. Its not hateful or anything against the gay community, its a defense of something we find sacred that we feel is being attacked.
this is pretty amusing actually, i had forgotten how mormons mince words to make them sound pleasing when they are actually telling you you are worth less.
traditional family. how amusing. so, where is all the action against divorce being legal? the idea of marriage, good grief, how is letting two people who love each other vow their love to each other in the same way everyone else does against the idea of marriage? try and explain that to me without sounding like a bigoted asshole.
why does the fact that they have the same genitals make their love any less pure, any less worthy of being defined as marriage.
Yay! Giant quote tree! I'm not sure when we need to start trimming this, but whatev.
In answer to the bolded part:
The family, is found eternally (we believe there is a Heavenly Father and Mother) and as an eternal principle must be defended on the Earth. We believe that in the eternities that its "man and woman" (as dictated to Adam and Eve in the garden) that will be partners throughout eternal progression. Since its an eternal principle that God has established and upheld, then it should be defended in order to keep the idea of Marriage in its original form and sacred. If that makes me a bigoted asshole so then so be it.
yeah but in the doctrine and covenants it says that the couples who are just normal-married won't become gods either, why not go hating after every couple not sealed? why just gay marriage? and calling it 'civil unions' won't change the fact that they have no effect on your religion, so why not allow them the same rights, under the same names, as everyone else
"Sealings" are also done for the dead who were married. They will have the ability to choose to accept or reject that as well. They aren't damaging the idea of a family unit. Except for the massive divorce rate, which if you actually look at what the church does you would notice that they offer free marriage counseling for anyone interested. This is done to preserve the family and its eternal foundation.
but all of this is useless masturbation anyways, anything i say won't convince you, because you have your eyes firmly shut, feeling righteous in your cause, and that what you are offering is fair.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
it makes me very very sad.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Civil Unions are not the same thing as marriage and do not afford the same rights as marriage in most states they exist. There are also many states that will not recognize civil unions or any union between gays either, even if another state does. So if you get a civil union in NJ then more to Arkansas, you're fucked.
Well then we need to get a federal law passed that will change that.
The largest defense I've seen concerning Prop 8 has been one concerning language. "Oh, oh! The government's forcing me to accept gays! We'll HAVE to marry them now."
No. Not at- fuck.
Darth, do it.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
but all of this is useless masturbation anyways, anything i say won't convince you, because you have your eyes firmly shut, feeling righteous in your cause, and that what you are offering is fair.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
Yeah, they are voting to deny equal rights to a minority. Which is wrong.
Morally wrong to you but not illegal. Look I think it sucks too but prop 8 passed democratically so unless it contradicts Cali's constitution no "dictating" took place here.
Not illegal, just unconstitutional. So hopefully it gets overturned.
Civil rights should never be left up to vote. The minority will always loose.
Discrimination by majority vote doesn't make discrimination right. It's still discrimination.
Prop 8 should have never ever exsisted.
Except marriage isn't a civil right. You need state approval and a license for it.
I need state approval and license to drive, vote, and teach too, and anyone can do those things.
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MrMonroepassed outon the floor nowRegistered Userregular
It's weird how when the Mormons are doing something that had no real impact on anyone else (postmortem baptism), it was an absolutely fine and dandy thing to do and you're crazy to disagree, but then when the gays want to do something that has no effect on the Mormons, the Mormons fight tooth and claw to deny their right to do it.
Yeah and in this case the Mormons are wrong.
Why can't everyone just stay out of everyone else's harmless shit?
I'll tell you why,
internet forum administrator conspiracy.
Because gay marriage isn't an insult to straight marriage?
And Obifett, wanting to preserve the institution of marriage as it is depicted in the Bible isn't what makes you a bigoted asshole.
It's being so small-minded and fearful that you think other people using the same word to describe something you hold dear in a slightly different way is going to disrupt your observation of that institution that makes you a bigot.
but all of this is useless masturbation anyways, anything i say won't convince you, because you have your eyes firmly shut, feeling righteous in your cause, and that what you are offering is fair.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
it makes me very very sad.
That bolded phrase is an impossibility. :winky:
I personally don't feel like my eyes are shut. I am very much a free thinker (Philosophy major) and welcome any viewpoints. I don't think I have been unreasonable or illogical in my statements so I'm not sure why you are comparing me to sheep, but whatev. Regardless, thanks for the convo and for not getting pissed off. Most people just get all angry when having any sort of debate.
Yeah, they are voting to deny equal rights to a minority. Which is wrong.
Morally wrong to you but not illegal. Look I think it sucks too but prop 8 passed democratically so unless it contradicts Cali's constitution no "dictating" took place here.
Not illegal, just unconstitutional. So hopefully it gets overturned.
Civil rights should never be left up to vote. The minority will always loose.
Discrimination by majority vote doesn't make discrimination right. It's still discrimination.
Prop 8 should have never ever exsisted.
Except marriage isn't a civil right. You need state approval and a license for it.
I need state approval and license to drive, vote, and teach too, and anyone can do those things.
And if we had left it to popular vote, half the country probably wouldn't be allowed to vote.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
Yeah, they are voting to deny equal rights to a minority. Which is wrong.
Morally wrong to you but not illegal. Look I think it sucks too but prop 8 passed democratically so unless it contradicts Cali's constitution no "dictating" took place here.
Not illegal, just unconstitutional. So hopefully it gets overturned.
Civil rights should never be left up to vote. The minority will always loose.
Discrimination by majority vote doesn't make discrimination right. It's still discrimination.
Prop 8 should have never ever exsisted.
Except marriage isn't a civil right. You need state approval and a license for it.
I need state approval and license to drive, vote, and teach too, and anyone can do those things.
You do not need a license to vote you just need to register. Driving and teaching are not rights but privileges that certainly not anyone can do.
but all of this is useless masturbation anyways, anything i say won't convince you, because you have your eyes firmly shut, feeling righteous in your cause, and that what you are offering is fair.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
it makes me very very sad.
That bolded phrase is an impossibility. :winky:
I personally don't feel like my eyes are shut. I am very much a free thinker (Philosophy major) and welcome any viewpoints. I don't think I have been unreasonable or illogical in my statements so I'm not sure why you are comparing me to sheep, but whatev. Regardless, thanks for the convo and for not getting pissed off. Most people just get all angry when having any sort of debate.
Apparently you need to take more argument to back up your philosophy, since this is you retreating. But I understand that gay marriage is horrible, and us bad people are forcing Mormon's to accept it. Oh, God, it's terribibible.
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Yeah, they are voting to deny equal rights to a minority. Which is wrong.
Morally wrong to you but not illegal. Look I think it sucks too but prop 8 passed democratically so unless it contradicts Cali's constitution no "dictating" took place here.
Not illegal, just unconstitutional. So hopefully it gets overturned.
Civil rights should never be left up to vote. The minority will always loose.
Discrimination by majority vote doesn't make discrimination right. It's still discrimination.
Prop 8 should have never ever exsisted.
Except marriage isn't a civil right. You need state approval and a license for it.
I need state approval and license to drive, vote, and teach too, and anyone can do those things.
You do not need a license to vote you just need to register. Driving and teaching are not rights but privileges that certainly not anyone can do.
But it still applies. No where in any constitution does it lay out that marriage is a "right" but by your definition would be a privilege as well.
but all of this is useless masturbation anyways, anything i say won't convince you, because you have your eyes firmly shut, feeling righteous in your cause, and that what you are offering is fair.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
it makes me very very sad.
That bolded phrase is an impossibility.
I personally don't feel like my eyes are shut. I am very much a free thinker (Philosophy major) and welcome any viewpoints. I don't think I have been unreasonable or illogical in my statements so I'm not sure why you are comparing me to sheep, but whatev. Regardless, thanks for the convo and for not getting pissed off. Most people just get all angry when having any sort of debate.
this is a very touchy subject that i am invested in on several fronts, so i get passionate about it, but i don't believe in hating someone just because they have an opposite view. and i grew up mormon so i know how large the stress upon the family is, so i can at least understand where your views are rooted in, even if i think they are very wrong, especially if you attempt to think of it logically and take all faith out of the equation.
and our laws and civil rights should not be based upon matters of faith.
and at least you didn't ask me straight out if i am a baby killer like my friend who just got back from his mission a few months ago did. hahahaha
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
edited February 2009
The real problem here is people getting benefits for being married. Fuck that noise.
but all of this is useless masturbation anyways, anything i say won't convince you, because you have your eyes firmly shut, feeling righteous in your cause, and that what you are offering is fair.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
it makes me very very sad.
That bolded phrase is an impossibility. :winky:
I personally don't feel like my eyes are shut. I am very much a free thinker (Philosophy major) and welcome any viewpoints. I don't think I have been unreasonable or illogical in my statements so I'm not sure why you are comparing me to sheep, but whatev. Regardless, thanks for the convo and for not getting pissed off. Most people just get all angry when having any sort of debate.
Apparently you need to take more argument to back up your philosophy, since this is you retreating. But I understand that gay marriage is horrible, and us bad people are forcing Mormon's to accept it. Oh, God, it's terribibible.
Really? Bel is cool poster (from what I have read of her posts in the past in different threads) and she basically said she was done because we weren't getting anywhere. I respected that and gave her props for being cool. I'm pretty sure we were both done and in no way was it just me retreating.
Yeah, they are voting to deny equal rights to a minority. Which is wrong.
Morally wrong to you but not illegal. Look I think it sucks too but prop 8 passed democratically so unless it contradicts Cali's constitution no "dictating" took place here.
Not illegal, just unconstitutional. So hopefully it gets overturned.
Civil rights should never be left up to vote. The minority will always loose.
Discrimination by majority vote doesn't make discrimination right. It's still discrimination.
Prop 8 should have never ever exsisted.
Except marriage isn't a civil right. You need state approval and a license for it.
I need state approval and license to drive, vote, and teach too, and anyone can do those things.
You do not need a license to vote you just need to register. Driving and teaching are not rights but privileges that certainly not anyone can do.
But it still applies. No where in any constitution does it lay out that marriage is a "right" but by your definition would be a privilege as well.
You seem to view it as a religious institution, making it a First Amendment right of anyone to practice marriage as they see fit.
If you seriously think it's ok to then have a legal institution surrounding it that gives credence to one type of ceremony and not another, then you don't understand or are unaware of the Establishment Clause.
edit: this is all a thought experiment anyway, the aim of which is to kick religion out of the debate, after which homophobes find themselves without a square inch of ground to stand on.
the point is you can't have it both ways. Either you are defending your sacred traditional institution and therefore good for you, we're defending this other progressive one and you can fuck right off trying to legislate otherwise, or you are just a bigot who thinks gay people are gross.
but all of this is useless masturbation anyways, anything i say won't convince you, because you have your eyes firmly shut, feeling righteous in your cause, and that what you are offering is fair.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
it makes me very very sad.
That bolded phrase is an impossibility. :winky:
I personally don't feel like my eyes are shut. I am very much a free thinker (Philosophy major) and welcome any viewpoints. I don't think I have been unreasonable or illogical in my statements so I'm not sure why you are comparing me to sheep, but whatev. Regardless, thanks for the convo and for not getting pissed off. Most people just get all angry when having any sort of debate.
Apparently you need to take more argument to back up your philosophy, since this is you retreating. But I understand that gay marriage is horrible, and us bad people are forcing Mormon's to accept it. Oh, God, it's terribibible.
Really? Bel is cool poster (from what I have read of her posts in the past in different threads) and she basically said she was done because we weren't getting anywhere. I respected that and gave her props for being cool. I'm pretty sure we were both done and in no way was it just me retreating.
Way to be a douche.
Sorry for oppressing you, but this particular opinion frustrates me to no end. Oh, and you guys are still crossing-swords. Look at that.
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Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
Yeah, they are voting to deny equal rights to a minority. Which is wrong.
Morally wrong to you but not illegal. Look I think it sucks too but prop 8 passed democratically so unless it contradicts Cali's constitution no "dictating" took place here.
Not illegal, just unconstitutional. So hopefully it gets overturned.
Civil rights should never be left up to vote. The minority will always loose.
Discrimination by majority vote doesn't make discrimination right. It's still discrimination.
Prop 8 should have never ever exsisted.
Except marriage isn't a civil right. You need state approval and a license for it.
I need state approval and license to drive, vote, and teach too, and anyone can do those things.
I am opposed to Gay Driving.
It is not what God intended when he invented the automobile.
Obi, why should your definition of marriage apply to people who aren't Mormon?
Trying this a 2nd time.
It doesn't have to and if prop 8 were voted down it wouldn't.
well yes but those are just facts, he's asking obi's view on it, what justification does he give himself for removing rights from a group of people based on his faith alone
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
Yeah, they are voting to deny equal rights to a minority. Which is wrong.
Morally wrong to you but not illegal. Look I think it sucks too but prop 8 passed democratically so unless it contradicts Cali's constitution no "dictating" took place here.
Not illegal, just unconstitutional. So hopefully it gets overturned.
Civil rights should never be left up to vote. The minority will always loose.
Discrimination by majority vote doesn't make discrimination right. It's still discrimination.
Prop 8 should have never ever exsisted.
Except marriage isn't a civil right. You need state approval and a license for it.
I need state approval and license to drive, vote, and teach too, and anyone can do those things.
I am opposed to Gay Driving.
It is not what God intended when he invented the automobile.
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Segregation directly contradicted principles in which this country was founded on and the 14th amendment. Striking it down was a bit more cut and dry.
Civil Unions are not the same thing as marriage and do not afford the same rights as marriage in most states they exist. There are also many states that will not recognize civil unions or any union between gays either, even if another state does. So if you get a civil union in NJ then more to Arkansas, you're fucked.
"Sealings" are also done for the dead who were married. They will have the ability to choose to accept or reject that as well. They aren't damaging the idea of a family unit. Except for the massive divorce rate, which if you actually look at what the church does you would notice that they offer free marriage counseling for anyone interested. This is done to preserve the family and its eternal foundation.
it's the same with my extended family, i was furious when they donated money to the yes on 8 campaign, but their church leaders sent down the command, and they, like a nice little flock, go and obey without thinking it out logically. but nothing i say will make them look at it with a fair even view, they are far too skewed.
it makes me very very sad.
Well then we need to get a federal law passed that will change that.
Is is story time? 'Cause I have a story about mormons.
No. Not at- fuck.
Darth, do it.
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Oh yeah tell me more!
For you, buddy, it's always story time
I need state approval and license to drive, vote, and teach too, and anyone can do those things.
Because gay marriage isn't an insult to straight marriage?
And Obifett, wanting to preserve the institution of marriage as it is depicted in the Bible isn't what makes you a bigoted asshole.
It's being so small-minded and fearful that you think other people using the same word to describe something you hold dear in a slightly different way is going to disrupt your observation of that institution that makes you a bigot.
That bolded phrase is an impossibility. :winky:
I personally don't feel like my eyes are shut. I am very much a free thinker (Philosophy major) and welcome any viewpoints. I don't think I have been unreasonable or illogical in my statements so I'm not sure why you are comparing me to sheep, but whatev. Regardless, thanks for the convo and for not getting pissed off. Most people just get all angry when having any sort of debate.
I need state approval and license to drive, vote, and teach too, and anyone can do those things.
And if we had left it to popular vote, half the country probably wouldn't be allowed to vote.
You do not need a license to vote you just need to register. Driving and teaching are not rights but privileges that certainly not anyone can do.
time's up hurf durf
Trying this a 2nd time.
I responded last time with:
"Fair enough.
What's an ideal you find important in your life?"
and to take it a bit further:
Why should your ideals apply to people who aren't you?
It doesn't have to and if prop 8 were voted down it wouldn't.
Apparently you need to take more argument to back up your philosophy, since this is you retreating. But I understand that gay marriage is horrible, and us bad people are forcing Mormon's to accept it. Oh, God, it's terribibible.
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But it still applies. No where in any constitution does it lay out that marriage is a "right" but by your definition would be a privilege as well.
this is a very touchy subject that i am invested in on several fronts, so i get passionate about it, but i don't believe in hating someone just because they have an opposite view. and i grew up mormon so i know how large the stress upon the family is, so i can at least understand where your views are rooted in, even if i think they are very wrong, especially if you attempt to think of it logically and take all faith out of the equation.
and our laws and civil rights should not be based upon matters of faith.
and at least you didn't ask me straight out if i am a baby killer like my friend who just got back from his mission a few months ago did. hahahaha
Really? Bel is cool poster (from what I have read of her posts in the past in different threads) and she basically said she was done because we weren't getting anywhere. I respected that and gave her props for being cool. I'm pretty sure we were both done and in no way was it just me retreating.
Way to be a douche.
True and that's why defense of marriage is discriminatory but it does not deny civil rights. Marriage is not a civil right.
Did you see Milk? Great movie.
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well... yeah
but there do need to be legal provisions vis a vis any offspring
You seem to view it as a religious institution, making it a First Amendment right of anyone to practice marriage as they see fit.
If you seriously think it's ok to then have a legal institution surrounding it that gives credence to one type of ceremony and not another, then you don't understand or are unaware of the Establishment Clause.
edit: this is all a thought experiment anyway, the aim of which is to kick religion out of the debate, after which homophobes find themselves without a square inch of ground to stand on.
the point is you can't have it both ways. Either you are defending your sacred traditional institution and therefore good for you, we're defending this other progressive one and you can fuck right off trying to legislate otherwise, or you are just a bigot who thinks gay people are gross.
Sorry for oppressing you, but this particular opinion frustrates me to no end. Oh, and you guys are still crossing-swords. Look at that.
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i don't disagree with you but what constitutes a civil right? first amendment stuff?
I am opposed to Gay Driving.
It is not what God intended when he invented the automobile.
well yes but those are just facts, he's asking obi's view on it, what justification does he give himself for removing rights from a group of people based on his faith alone
Legal provisions that outline the responsibility of the offspring's parents and/or legal guardians. Not husbands and wives.
That which is identified as such in a constitution at the state for federal level. You want marriage to be a right? Amend the constitution.
we are in agreement