1. I could give two shits if some redneck decides to fly the Betsy Ross, or even the Confederate flag. It's a piece of cloth. They're free to fly their trousers from the flagpole if they really want.
2. I personally don't care if they throw tea on their flags, but giggle like a schoolgirl at the irony of it all. Those who are against burning the flag intend to deface it? Delicious.
2. I personally don't care if they throw tea on their flags, but giggle like a schoolgirl at the irony of it all. Those who are against burning the flag intend to deface it? Delicious.
1. I could give two shits if some redneck decides to fly the Betsy Ross, or even the Confederate flag. It's a piece of cloth. They're free to fly their trousers from the flagpole if they really want.
2. I personally don't care if they throw tea on their flags, but giggle like a schoolgirl at the irony of it all. Those who are against burning the flag intend to deface it? Delicious.
A burning american flag doesn't exactly conjure up the positive connotations a tea-stained one does. So it's not really ironic at all.
No, even for hypocrisy the intent would still have to be there.
The dude has no intention to deface the flag and what he's doing can barely be made out to be as defacement. This is all a bunch of nothing over nothing.
No, even for hypocrisy the intent would still have to be there.
The dude has no intention to deface the flag and what he's doing can barely be made out to be as defacement. This is all a bunch of nothing over nothing.
This is from the party that threw a shitfit over someone not wearing an american flag lapel pin.
Fine, hypocrisy, not irony. I am corrected and admit my wrongness.
...We need a flag for pre-coffee posting.
I don't see how it's hypocritical either. Burning an American flag normally symbolizes either:
A: You're not so sweet on America
B: You're celebrating freedom of speech or something, which can theoretically be a pro-american act. But it's also the least likely explanation for when you see someone burning a flag.
Now I'm an outsider but I can't think of any other explanation for dipping a flag in tea except as a reference to the Boston tea party/parties/whatever.
So there's nothing hypocritical about criticizing the burning of an american flag whilst dipping one in tea, unless you're dipping it in tea to symbolize your support for drowning the nation beneath a tsunami of the stuff.
So there's nothing hypocritical about criticizing the burning of an american flag whilst dipping one in tea, unless you're dipping it in tea to symbolize your support for drowning the nation beneath a tsunami of the stuff.
I'm a service member and I'm ok with people defacing flags. In the end it's just a piece of cloth, and it's the ultimate act of symbolic speech, and freedom of expression is, after all, one of those Constitutional freedoms I swore to protect.
What does really piss me off is non-symbolic defacement. Tattered, faded flags on the people's flagpoles, or flags that have fallen down and are laying on the ground all dirty really piss me off.
Knowing these stupid extremists, they'd probably just pour a pot of tea on their flag instead of actually going about the process of not ruining the flag.
So there's nothing hypocritical about criticizing the burning of an american flag whilst dipping one in tea, unless you're dipping it in tea to symbolize your support for drowning the nation beneath a tsunami of the stuff.
So you're saying the founders can't/shouldn't be invoked, then?
Invoking our founding fathers, especially when they are invoked as some kind of homogeneous prophetic hive-mind whole, always smacked of great naivety to me. While certainly some of the ideas and ideals espoused by the individuals who helped found our country are things we should strive for, they were people of their time and place and many of their views on the world and how government should be operated are no longer applicable in the world we live in.
As for this whole flag business seems rather silly to me. Still, the choice in some of the flags are... interesting to say the least. This doesn't seem just like a ploy to revitalize some of our cultural heritage. The Gadsden Flag for example was a flag used commonly in some areas during the revolution against Britain. And the snake on that flag was apparently derived from the snake form this political cartoon Benjamin Franklin:
I say we switch out our flags with pirate flags. And when our neighbors ask what's up we swing on ropes to their houses and pillage the fuck out of them.
I don't see how it's hypocritical either. Burning an American flag normally symbolizes either:
A: You're not so sweet on America
B: You're celebrating freedom of speech or something, which can theoretically be a pro-american act. But it's also the least likely explanation for when you see someone burning a flag.
It is usually used to protest the current government and not necessarily the country as a whole.
Flags can be destroyed by burning or can be defaced with slogans or daubed with excrement, etc. Flags can be walked upon, spat upon, or dragged through the dirt. Flags may simply be used unconventionally: they may be hung upside down or reversed (in some countries, however, this is also conventional protocol to indicate a problem). Toilet paper, napkins, doormats, and other such items may also be manufactured bearing the image of the flag, so that the flag's image will be destroyed or dirtied in the course of everyday activities. It is increasingly common to see clothing with the image of flags forming a substantial part of the piece. Opinion is split as to whether this is an act of national pride or is disrespectful. Such actions may be undertaken for a variety of reasons:
* As a protest against a country's foreign policy.
* To distance oneself from the foreign or domestic policies of one's home country.
* As a protest at the very laws prohibiting the actions in question.
* As a protest against nationalism.
* As a protest against the government in power in the country, or against the country's form of government.
* A symbolic insult to the people of that country.
* To demonstrate one's rights.
In common usage, the phrase 'flag burning' refers only to burning a flag as an act of protest. However the United States Flag Code states that "the flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning," ideally by an authorized organization with a suitable ceremony accompanying.[1]
So you're saying the founders can't/shouldn't be invoked, then?
Invoking our founding fathers, especially when they are invoked as some kind of homogeneous prophetic hive-mind whole, always smacked of great naivety to me. While certainly some of the ideas and ideals espoused by the individuals who helped found our country are things we should strive for, they were people of their time and place and many of their views on the world and how government should be operated are no longer applicable in the world we live in.
As for this whole flag business seems rather silly to me. Still, the choice in some of the flags are... interesting to say the least. This doesn't seem just like a ploy to revitalize some of our cultural heritage. The Gadsden Flag for example was a flag used commonly in some areas during the revolution against Britain. And the snake on that flag was apparently derived from the snake form this political cartoon Benjamin Franklin:
Yeah which is all fine, but all I'm seeing in Preacher's post is "between them the founders held racist and sexist ideals and/or were insufficiently supportive of abolition, therefore citing the founders as an authority on American values is racist and dumb".
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DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
edited September 2009
I think I'll show my support for the country by flying a flag. Maybe something with Gas Pump and a Hamburger on it.
Going back to said Boy Scouts, the flag disposing ceremony is a bit ridiculous. You have to fold the flag like you normally would fold one but you have to set it in the fire so the stars burn first. It's also a completely silent ceremony, like a funeral, until after the flag is gone.
I don't see how it's hypocritical either. Burning an American flag normally symbolizes either:
A: You're not so sweet on America
B: You're celebrating freedom of speech or something, which can theoretically be a pro-american act. But it's also the least likely explanation for when you see someone burning a flag.
It is usually used to protest the current government and not necessarily the country as a whole.
Flags can be destroyed by burning or can be defaced with slogans or daubed with excrement, etc. Flags can be walked upon, spat upon, or dragged through the dirt. Flags may simply be used unconventionally: they may be hung upside down or reversed (in some countries, however, this is also conventional protocol to indicate a problem). Toilet paper, napkins, doormats, and other such items may also be manufactured bearing the image of the flag, so that the flag's image will be destroyed or dirtied in the course of everyday activities. It is increasingly common to see clothing with the image of flags forming a substantial part of the piece. Opinion is split as to whether this is an act of national pride or is disrespectful. Such actions may be undertaken for a variety of reasons:
* As a protest against a country's foreign policy.
* To distance oneself from the foreign or domestic policies of one's home country.
* As a protest at the very laws prohibiting the actions in question.
* As a protest against nationalism.
* As a protest against the government in power in the country, or against the country's form of government.
* A symbolic insult to the people of that country.
* To demonstrate one's rights.
In common usage, the phrase 'flag burning' refers only to burning a flag as an act of protest. However the United States Flag Code states that "the flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning," ideally by an authorized organization with a suitable ceremony accompanying.[1]
I know I'm not an american but you really seem to be stretching here. If I see someone burning a flag on TV, 9/10 times it's going to be someone who dislikes america regardless of who's in power. There's absolutely no question that a the image of a burning american flag is primarily associated with anti-american sentiment. Dipping a flag in tea has no such connotations. Therefore the average person would regard a tea stained flag as a patriotic image, and a burning one as...whatever the opposite of patriotism is.
Suggesting to cover one in tea stains is absolutely defacing a flag. You might as well be burning or ripping it apart.
Even if some doofus doesn't realize it's defacement according to the flag code, staining a flag with tea is tacky and ignorant as all hell. Right up there with flag boxer shorts.
Also, nothing shows your love for the flag like the accrued jizz-stains.
Dipping a flag in tea has no such connotations. Therefore the average person would regard a tea stained flag as a patriotic image, and a burning one as...whatever the opposite of patriotism is.
Dipping a flag in tea has no such connotations. Therefore the average person would regard a tea stained flag as a patriotic image, and a burning one as...whatever the opposite of patriotism is.
Seriously, just....just please stop.
I can't believe I have to explain to an American why a flag dipped in tea is meant as a patriotic act, and a flag set on fire isn't.
Citing the founding fathers is usually just a form of ancestor worship.
Citing the "Founding Fathers" can be pretty useful in dissecting exactly what they meant when writing, say, the Declaration of Independence or the powers of the executive in the Constitution. Problem is, most people spouting "Founding Fathers" crap on Fox News don't exactly have a copy of the Federalist Papers in their back pocket, if you know what I mean.
Dipping a flag in tea has no such connotations. Therefore the average person would regard a tea stained flag as a patriotic image, and a burning one as...whatever the opposite of patriotism is.
Seriously, just....just please stop.
I can't believe I have to explain to an American why a flag dipped in tea is meant as a patriotic act, and a flag set on fire isn't.
When our current president gets cast in the leading role of King George, complete with effigy?
Well, you're going to have to, cause right now you're making my head hurt.
I've laid out my explanation twice now, and each time you respond by quoting it and making some snide remark. Guess what, these:
Seriously?
Seriously, just....just please stop.
are not convincing responses.
That's because your "explanations" are utter trash.
I appreciate the input.
When our current president gets cast in the leading role of King George, complete with effigy?
Huh? We're talking about a different issue from dipping a flag in tea now. I'm not defending any effigy-burning or whatever, though I don't think it's been mentioned at any point in this thread so far.
Regardless of whether or not he thinks dipping a flag into tea is supposed to represent the tea parties and isn't flag defacement, it is defacement and it is hypocrisy. He's also an idiot for misrepresenting the actual tea parties. He has representation, he just fucking lost.
Regardless of whether or not he thinks dipping a flag into tea is supposed to represent the tea parties and isn't flag defacement, it is defacement and it is hypocrisy. He's also an idiot for misrepresenting the actual tea parties. He has representation, he just fucking lost.
Except I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that their first thought when seeing a someone dipping a flag in tea would be "boston tea party" - i.e. a patriotic act, whereas when coming across someone burning a flag they'd assume the guy doing the burning was not a big fan of america. It's not hypocritical to criticize someone burning a flag in protest because it's widely regarded to symbolize something completely different.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Regardless of whether or not he thinks dipping a flag into tea is supposed to represent the tea parties and isn't flag defacement, it is defacement and it is hypocrisy. He's also an idiot for misrepresenting the actual tea parties. He has representation, he just fucking lost.
Except I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that their first thought when seeing a someone dipping a flag in tea would be "boston tea party" - i.e. a patriotic act, whereas when coming across someone burning a flag they'd assume the guy doing the burning was not a big fan of america. It's not hypocritical to criticize someone burning a flag in protest because it's widely regarded to symbolize something completely different.
No, when I see someone dipping a flag into tea, I think "What the fuck are they doing to the flag"
Then I fantasize about beating the everliving shit out of them
Same as if they took a crap, or burned, or intentionally dropped it, or treated the flag as anything else besides the utmost respect it deserves
Posts
2. I personally don't care if they throw tea on their flags, but giggle like a schoolgirl at the irony of it all. Those who are against burning the flag intend to deface it? Delicious.
The rank hypocrisy is my problem with it
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
A burning american flag doesn't exactly conjure up the positive connotations a tea-stained one does. So it's not really ironic at all.
edit: beat'd
...We need a flag for pre-coffee posting.
The dude has no intention to deface the flag and what he's doing can barely be made out to be as defacement. This is all a bunch of nothing over nothing.
Instead of ruining good flags.
This is actually pretty nice looking.
This is from the party that threw a shitfit over someone not wearing an american flag lapel pin.
This is blatant hypocrisy.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
I don't see how it's hypocritical either. Burning an American flag normally symbolizes either:
A: You're not so sweet on America
B: You're celebrating freedom of speech or something, which can theoretically be a pro-american act. But it's also the least likely explanation for when you see someone burning a flag.
Now I'm an outsider but I can't think of any other explanation for dipping a flag in tea except as a reference to the Boston tea party/parties/whatever.
So there's nothing hypocritical about criticizing the burning of an american flag whilst dipping one in tea, unless you're dipping it in tea to symbolize your support for drowning the nation beneath a tsunami of the stuff.
edit: damnit Hoz stop doing that
Seriously?
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
What does really piss me off is non-symbolic defacement. Tattered, faded flags on the people's flagpoles, or flags that have fallen down and are laying on the ground all dirty really piss me off.
It seems pretty obvious that it is defacement.
and Boy Scouts!
Respecting the flag is one the things drilled into your head as a Boy Scout.
Suggesting to cover one in tea stains is absolutely defacing a flag. You might as well be burning or ripping it apart.
Although, from my googling, I guess making a flag look like it has been tea stained is a decoration piece because it makes it look old.
http://theoldesaltboxstore.com/americana.html
Knowing these stupid extremists, they'd probably just pour a pot of tea on their flag instead of actually going about the process of not ruining the flag.
No I'm totally fucking with you.
Invoking our founding fathers, especially when they are invoked as some kind of homogeneous prophetic hive-mind whole, always smacked of great naivety to me. While certainly some of the ideas and ideals espoused by the individuals who helped found our country are things we should strive for, they were people of their time and place and many of their views on the world and how government should be operated are no longer applicable in the world we live in.
As for this whole flag business seems rather silly to me. Still, the choice in some of the flags are... interesting to say the least. This doesn't seem just like a ploy to revitalize some of our cultural heritage. The Gadsden Flag for example was a flag used commonly in some areas during the revolution against Britain. And the snake on that flag was apparently derived from the snake form this political cartoon Benjamin Franklin:
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
Yeah which is all fine, but all I'm seeing in Preacher's post is "between them the founders held racist and sexist ideals and/or were insufficiently supportive of abolition, therefore citing the founders as an authority on American values is racist and dumb".
I know I'm not an american but you really seem to be stretching here. If I see someone burning a flag on TV, 9/10 times it's going to be someone who dislikes america regardless of who's in power. There's absolutely no question that a the image of a burning american flag is primarily associated with anti-american sentiment. Dipping a flag in tea has no such connotations. Therefore the average person would regard a tea stained flag as a patriotic image, and a burning one as...whatever the opposite of patriotism is.
Even if some doofus doesn't realize it's defacement according to the flag code, staining a flag with tea is tacky and ignorant as all hell. Right up there with flag boxer shorts.
Also, nothing shows your love for the flag like the accrued jizz-stains.
Seriously, just....just please stop.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
I can't believe I have to explain to an American why a flag dipped in tea is meant as a patriotic act, and a flag set on fire isn't.
Citing the "Founding Fathers" can be pretty useful in dissecting exactly what they meant when writing, say, the Declaration of Independence or the powers of the executive in the Constitution. Problem is, most people spouting "Founding Fathers" crap on Fox News don't exactly have a copy of the Federalist Papers in their back pocket, if you know what I mean.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
When our current president gets cast in the leading role of King George, complete with effigy?
I've laid out my explanation twice now, and each time you respond by quoting it and making some snide remark. Guess what, these:
are not convincing responses.
That's because your "explanations" are utter trash.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
I appreciate the input.
Huh? We're talking about a different issue from dipping a flag in tea now. I'm not defending any effigy-burning or whatever, though I don't think it's been mentioned at any point in this thread so far.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Except I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that their first thought when seeing a someone dipping a flag in tea would be "boston tea party" - i.e. a patriotic act, whereas when coming across someone burning a flag they'd assume the guy doing the burning was not a big fan of america. It's not hypocritical to criticize someone burning a flag in protest because it's widely regarded to symbolize something completely different.
you seem to think this is a qualitatively different reply to what you previously said.
do you have an argument to back up your emotional response, preferably with logical premises?
or are you going to respond to every post disagreeing with you with "my ego demands you stop because i feel like it"
No, when I see someone dipping a flag into tea, I think "What the fuck are they doing to the flag"
Then I fantasize about beating the everliving shit out of them
Same as if they took a crap, or burned, or intentionally dropped it, or treated the flag as anything else besides the utmost respect it deserves