That wouldnt happen in the U.S. well at least it isnt legal to do that (deny access to lawyer). Any defense would get that confession thrown out in a heartbeat.
Even in Italy, the confession WAS thrown out. The problem is Italian juries aren't sequestered, so they learned all about it anyway.
IANAL but for knox to be sent back to italy a few things would have to happen:
1) Italy's supreme court would have to essentially order a retrial or overturn the appeal, as the supreme court is the next level the case can go to, and like with the U.S. Supreme court the Itailian Supreme Court would only look at the procedure followed in the appeals court. IE they dont really care about the facts of the case. So amanda wouldnt have to be present for such a hearing. So if the supreme court overturns the appeals court, or orders a retrial, then they may go to step 2.
2) Italian governement would have to request the us goverment send amanda knox over to face punishment/trial.
3) State department does a quick review of the documents sent by the italian government. If the case has enough probable cause its then eventually handed down to the FBI to arrest amanda.
4) Amanda is then before a U.S. magistrate judge before being sent, who does a more careful review of the evidence, charges brought against her, and make sure that what she is charged of is also illegal where she lives in the United States.
5) if she is unlucky she gets sent back.
I dont think we get past step 1 though.
I think there's a real double jeopardy argument to be made if Italy wanted her extradited to stand trial again. Since she's now been found innocent of the crime in question, the US Constitution should not allow her to stand trial again for the same crime, regardless of what Italian law might allow.
And I didn't know the State Department had the authority to issue arrest warrants. Wouldn't that have to go through a US judge in the first place?
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
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Alfred J. Kwakis it because you were insultedwhen I insulted your hair?Registered Userregular
I think part of her confession came from interogation made with the italian police, in italian... a language she had been studying for 2 months.
Though I would crow if was American. If the case was reversed and happend in Texas, she would still be in jail. And by Jail I mean death row with no hope for appeal.
This is because Texas is an awful place (in regards to it's criminal justice system, and how people view justice overall)
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
I think part of her confession came from interogation made with the italian police, in italian... a language she had been studying for 2 months.
Though I would crow if was American. If the case was reversed and happend in Texas, she would still be in jail. And by Jail I mean death row with no hope for appeal.
This is because Texas is an awful place (in regards to it's criminal justice system, and how people view justice overall)
I don't know if Italy has the equivalent of a right to remain silent, but that right does exist in the US. Here, she could have simply have kept her mouth shut and asked for a lawyer, and questioning would have stopped.
Seriously, I'd rather be on trial in any part of the US rather than almost any other country in the world. Our system provides a level of protection to the accused that is almost unheard of in the rest of the world.
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
I think there's a real double jeopardy argument to be made if Italy wanted her extradited to stand trial again. Since she's now been found innocent of the crime in question, the US Constitution should not allow her to stand trial again for the same crime, regardless of what Italian law might allow.
And I didn't know the State Department had the authority to issue arrest warrants. Wouldn't that have to go through a US judge in the first place?
There is no double jeopardy arguement here really. If the ISC throws out the appeal then she is back to 'guilty' on the first jeopardy. If you are found to be innocent on appeal, and the appeal is overturned you are in fact back to guilty.
And the state department isn't the issuant of the warrent. Thats why I said it goes down through the chain. Warrent is issued before you are arrested, there is a process for this but I didnt want to get into the details because they wern't important, when each step is basically 'is paperwork in order, y? next step, n? return to step above to get paperwork in order'.
Anyway back to that video, the biggest takeaway for me is this...
paraphrasing here:
Nothing you say to a cop can be used FOR you in court, only against you. So you stand to gain absolutely nothing saying anything.
You guys are forgetting the whole suspicion of her by the Italian police came from a photo.
Because when I look at that image, I think some super horny American student had a violent sex game with her unwilling roomate and then tortured and killed her.
There is no double jeopardy arguement here really. If the ISC throws out the appeal then she is back to 'guilty' on the first jeopardy. If you are found to be innocent on appeal, and the appeal is overturned you are in fact back to guilty.
Not in the US, though. The government can't appeal a finding of not-guilty, due to double jeopardy, AFAIK. Foreign laws can't override Constitutional protections. In the unlikely case that Italy wanted to extradite her, her attorneys could point to the finding of innocence in this last trial and invoke the double jeopardy rule. If the US government only gets one bite at the apple when it comes to seeking a conviction, I can't see US courts giving foreign governments more latitude.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
I think part of her confession came from interogation made with the italian police, in italian... a language she had been studying for 2 months.
Though I would crow if was American. If the case was reversed and happend in Texas, she would still be in jail. And by Jail I mean death row with no hope for appeal.
This is because Texas is an awful place (in regards to it's criminal justice system, and how people view justice overall)
I don't know if Italy has the equivalent of a right to remain silent, but that right does exist in the US. Here, she could have simply have kept her mouth shut and asked for a lawyer, and questioning would have stopped.
Seriously, I'd rather be on trial in any part of the US rather than almost any other country in the world. Our system provides a level of protection to the accused that is almost unheard of in the rest of the world.
Italy has the right to silence implicitly under the European Convention on Human Rights.
Yeah, in the U.S. the state can't appeal an acquittal. Apparently in italy it can, although it sounds like that's only because the appellate court's disagreement with the lower is over evidentiary procedure? It's hard to tell from the general news articles you read.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I think part of her confession came from interogation made with the italian police, in italian... a language she had been studying for 2 months.
Though I would crow if was American. If the case was reversed and happend in Texas, she would still be in jail. And by Jail I mean death row with no hope for appeal.
This is because Texas is an awful place (in regards to it's criminal justice system, and how people view justice overall)
I don't know if Italy has the equivalent of a right to remain silent, but that right does exist in the US. Here, she could have simply have kept her mouth shut and asked for a lawyer, and questioning would have stopped.
Seriously, I'd rather be on trial in any part of the US rather than almost any other country in the world. Our system provides a level of protection to the accused that is almost unheard of in the rest of the world.
Italy has the right to silence implicitly under the European Convention on Human Rights.
Maybe she never asked for a lawyer while she was interrogated overnight without sleep, but I doubt it. Right to silence becomes kind of irrelevant if they can just imprison you until you talk.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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Alfred J. Kwakis it because you were insultedwhen I insulted your hair?Registered Userregular
Italy has the right to silence implicitly under the European Convention on Human Rights.
Maybe she never asked for a lawyer while she was interrogated overnight without sleep, but I doubt it. Right to silence becomes kind of irrelevant if they can just imprison you until you talk.
Again, she would have the right to a legal representation and they wouldn't be able to imprison you until you talk either, again under the European Convention on Human Rights.
@Modern Man Protocol 7 provides a double jeopardy law (Ne bis in idem, which incidentally is from Roman Civil Law). As I understand it, in Italy the prosecution may appeal an acquittal to a higher court, which counts as a continuation of the original trial, so she has not been 'finally acquitted'.
I've just read the "Monster of Florence" book mentioned earlier in the thread and found in fascinating. Does anyone have anymore recommendations for books detailing inept police investigations? I get the feeling this is an area of literature with many interesting stories to tell.
I've just read the "Monster of Florence" book mentioned earlier in the thread and found in fascinating. Does anyone have anymore recommendations for books detailing inept police investigations? I get the feeling this is an area of literature with many interesting stories to tell.
I've just read the "Monster of Florence" book mentioned earlier in the thread and found in fascinating. Does anyone have anymore recommendations for books detailing inept police investigations? I get the feeling this is an area of literature with many interesting stories to tell.
I've just read the "Monster of Florence" book mentioned earlier in the thread and found in fascinating. Does anyone have anymore recommendations for books detailing inept police investigations? I get the feeling this is an area of literature with many interesting stories to tell.
Italy has the right to silence implicitly under the European Convention on Human Rights.
Maybe she never asked for a lawyer while she was interrogated overnight without sleep, but I doubt it. Right to silence becomes kind of irrelevant if they can just imprison you until you talk.
Again, she would have the right to a legal representation and they wouldn't be able to imprison you until you talk either, again under the European Convention on Human Rights.
@Modern Man Protocol 7 provides a double jeopardy law (Ne bis in idem, which incidentally is from Roman Civil Law). As I understand it, in Italy the prosecution may appeal an acquittal to a higher court, which counts as a continuation of the original trial, so she has not been 'finally acquitted'.
Those are things that might be perfectly true, the point is that Italy's legal system is so corrupt, they pretty much ignored all of those things.
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
I've just read the "Monster of Florence" book mentioned earlier in the thread and found in fascinating. Does anyone have anymore recommendations for books detailing inept police investigations? I get the feeling this is an area of literature with many interesting stories to tell.
Looks for anything involving the Satanic Panic of the 80s, especially anything involving the McMartion pre-school trial - AKA 'We'll blow $15 million and keep innocent people in jail for 7 years, concealing the fact that it was all kicked off by the accusations of a crazy bitch who drank herself to death before year 1 of this mess is out."
Italy has the right to silence implicitly under the European Convention on Human Rights.
Maybe she never asked for a lawyer while she was interrogated overnight without sleep, but I doubt it. Right to silence becomes kind of irrelevant if they can just imprison you until you talk.
Again, she would have the right to a legal representation and they wouldn't be able to imprison you until you talk either, again under the European Convention on Human Rights.
@Modern Man Protocol 7 provides a double jeopardy law (Ne bis in idem, which incidentally is from Roman Civil Law). As I understand it, in Italy the prosecution may appeal an acquittal to a higher court, which counts as a continuation of the original trial, so she has not been 'finally acquitted'.
Its my understanding that the European Convention on Human Rights is fairly toothless though. Like they can go "You can't do that!" and everyone nods gravely and ignores them. Are people ever freed after appealing to the European Court of Human Rights?
Italy has the right to silence implicitly under the European Convention on Human Rights.
Maybe she never asked for a lawyer while she was interrogated overnight without sleep, but I doubt it. Right to silence becomes kind of irrelevant if they can just imprison you until you talk.
Again, she would have the right to a legal representation and they wouldn't be able to imprison you until you talk either, again under the European Convention on Human Rights.
@Modern Man Protocol 7 provides a double jeopardy law (Ne bis in idem, which incidentally is from Roman Civil Law). As I understand it, in Italy the prosecution may appeal an acquittal to a higher court, which counts as a continuation of the original trial, so she has not been 'finally acquitted'.
Those are things that might be perfectly true, the point is that Italy's legal system is so corrupt, they pretty much ignored all of those things.
Then take your appeal to Strasbourg and rid yourself of the Italian legal system entirely?
Italy has the right to silence implicitly under the European Convention on Human Rights.
Maybe she never asked for a lawyer while she was interrogated overnight without sleep, but I doubt it. Right to silence becomes kind of irrelevant if they can just imprison you until you talk.
Again, she would have the right to a legal representation and they wouldn't be able to imprison you until you talk either, again under the European Convention on Human Rights.
@Modern Man Protocol 7 provides a double jeopardy law (Ne bis in idem, which incidentally is from Roman Civil Law). As I understand it, in Italy the prosecution may appeal an acquittal to a higher court, which counts as a continuation of the original trial, so she has not been 'finally acquitted'.
Its my understanding that the European Convention on Human Rights is fairly toothless though. Like they can go "You can't do that!" and everyone nods gravely and ignores them. Are people ever freed after appealing to the European Court of Human Rights?
Italy has the right to silence implicitly under the European Convention on Human Rights.
Maybe she never asked for a lawyer while she was interrogated overnight without sleep, but I doubt it. Right to silence becomes kind of irrelevant if they can just imprison you until you talk.
Again, she would have the right to a legal representation and they wouldn't be able to imprison you until you talk either, again under the European Convention on Human Rights.
@Modern Man Protocol 7 provides a double jeopardy law (Ne bis in idem, which incidentally is from Roman Civil Law). As I understand it, in Italy the prosecution may appeal an acquittal to a higher court, which counts as a continuation of the original trial, so she has not been 'finally acquitted'.
Its my understanding that the European Convention on Human Rights is fairly toothless though. Like they can go "You can't do that!" and everyone nods gravely and ignores them. Are people ever freed after appealing to the European Court of Human Rights?
A very useful lecture, even in countries without explicit laws like the 5th.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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Element BrianPeanut Butter ShillRegistered Userregular
So her family now has over a million dollars in legal debts to pay off...shouldn't like...Italy be the ones who have to pay that, since she was found guilty and so they basically caused her family to be bankrupt for no reason..
Italy has the right to silence implicitly under the European Convention on Human Rights.
Maybe she never asked for a lawyer while she was interrogated overnight without sleep, but I doubt it. Right to silence becomes kind of irrelevant if they can just imprison you until you talk.
Again, she would have the right to a legal representation and they wouldn't be able to imprison you until you talk either, again under the European Convention on Human Rights.
@Modern Man Protocol 7 provides a double jeopardy law (Ne bis in idem, which incidentally is from Roman Civil Law). As I understand it, in Italy the prosecution may appeal an acquittal to a higher court, which counts as a continuation of the original trial, so she has not been 'finally acquitted'.
Those are things that might be perfectly true, the point is that Italy's legal system is so corrupt, they pretty much ignored all of those things.
Then take your appeal to Strasbourg and rid yourself of the Italian legal system entirely?
I'm sure that solution was made abundantly clear by the apparently horribly corrupt Italian Prosecutors and legal system to the American tourist with 2 months worth of Italian under her belt. It's almost like she was denied counsel for extended periods and thrown in prison after a laughably corrupt trial in which there was almost no real evidence against her...
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
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Magus`The fun has been DOUBLED!Registered Userregular
So her family now has over a million dollars in legal debts to pay off...shouldn't like...Italy be the ones who have to pay that, since she was found guilty and so they basically caused her family to be bankrupt for no reason..
You're cute, this is cute.
It's very rare that police will pay off in cases of things like this. Also, Italy sounds like a really dickish place, so it's kind of a two-fer no-fer.
Whilst I wouldn't like to be tried in Italy, I find it amusing that the Americans amongst us are playing high and mighty when we consistently hear about them sending people accused under dubious evidence to their deaths, though of course these people are often poor and black.
That said, all countries have certain flaws in their judicial systems. The UK system for example, you do not have a right to silence, as certain inferences can be taken from a suspects decision to remain silent. In addition much has been made of our various treaties in which we extradite people to certain countries without looking at the evidence for extradition.
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Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
Whilst I wouldn't like to be tried in Italy, I find it amusing that the Americans amongst us are playing high and mighty when we consistently hear about them sending people accused under dubious evidence to their deaths, though of course these people are often poor and black.
That said, all countries have certain flaws in their judicial systems. The UK system for example, you do not have a right to silence, as certain inferences can be taken from a suspects decision to remain silent. In addition much has been made of our various treaties in which we extradite people to certain countries without looking at the evidence for extradition.
How often do you hear that a Judge and Prosecutor on a major case in America are under investigation for corruption and for tampering with evidence and an investigation, and then none of them being replaced, at any point.
I mean, if that ever happened, I can't remember it.
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
Italy has the right to silence implicitly under the European Convention on Human Rights.
Maybe she never asked for a lawyer while she was interrogated overnight without sleep, but I doubt it. Right to silence becomes kind of irrelevant if they can just imprison you until you talk.
Again, she would have the right to a legal representation and they wouldn't be able to imprison you until you talk either, again under the European Convention on Human Rights.
@Modern Man Protocol 7 provides a double jeopardy law (Ne bis in idem, which incidentally is from Roman Civil Law). As I understand it, in Italy the prosecution may appeal an acquittal to a higher court, which counts as a continuation of the original trial, so she has not been 'finally acquitted'.
Its my understanding that the European Convention on Human Rights is fairly toothless though. Like they can go "You can't do that!" and everyone nods gravely and ignores them. Are people ever freed after appealing to the European Court of Human Rights?
I agree that the Court of Human rights is generally a very powerful body. The only exception I might take to info in this quote tree is that the under the convention the right to silence is only implied under article 6, that of a fair trial. It assumes a common standard that everyone regards a right to silence as necessary for a fair trial
Has the Monster of Florance been mentioned... because yea, same character assassination job, same judge/lawyer (accused of planting of evidence in both cases, not a widely reported aspect to this case), same crazy Italian "sex cult" media obsession.
That is a fantastic book, and it certainly colored my opinion of the Italian judicial system.
Whilst I wouldn't like to be tried in Italy, I find it amusing that the Americans amongst us are playing high and mighty when we consistently hear about them sending people accused under dubious evidence to their deaths, though of course these people are often poor and black.
That said, all countries have certain flaws in their judicial systems. The UK system for example, you do not have a right to silence, as certain inferences can be taken from a suspects decision to remain silent. In addition much has been made of our various treaties in which we extradite people to certain countries without looking at the evidence for extradition.
How often do you hear that a Judge and Prosecutor on a major case in America are under investigation for corruption and for tampering with evidence and an investigation, and then none of them being replaced, at any point.
I mean, if that ever happened, I can't remember it.
How often do you hear about Italy killing its prisoners or torturing foreign nationals?
I mean, if that ever happened, I can't remember it.
(I know I'm being a bit of a silly goose, but it does annoy me sometimes when people seem to assume America is 'home of the free')
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Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
Whilst I wouldn't like to be tried in Italy, I find it amusing that the Americans amongst us are playing high and mighty when we consistently hear about them sending people accused under dubious evidence to their deaths, though of course these people are often poor and black.
That said, all countries have certain flaws in their judicial systems. The UK system for example, you do not have a right to silence, as certain inferences can be taken from a suspects decision to remain silent. In addition much has been made of our various treaties in which we extradite people to certain countries without looking at the evidence for extradition.
How often do you hear that a Judge and Prosecutor on a major case in America are under investigation for corruption and for tampering with evidence and an investigation, and then none of them being replaced, at any point.
I mean, if that ever happened, I can't remember it.
How often do you hear about Italy killing its prisoners or torturing foreign nationals?
I mean, if that ever happened, I can't remember it.
(I know I'm being a bit of a silly goose, but it does annoy me sometimes when people seem to assume America is 'home of the free')
You say this like it hasn't been pointed out, numerous times, BY AMERICANS, that the American system is deeply flawed in many ways. People aren't saying the American system is flawless, they're saying that in general the Italian system seems worse.
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
You say this like it hasn't been pointed out, numerous times, BY AMERICANS, that the American system is deeply flawed in many ways. People aren't saying the American system is flawless, they're saying that in general the Italian system seems worse.
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
If you are willing to judge the Italian system based on this one case, you should also be willing to judge the American system based on a small number of cases. You can't seriously think that the American system comes out ahead in that comparison. I know which country I'd rather be tried in and it sure isn't America.
How about this one: The American legal system is terrible in many ways. The Italian legal system is ALSO terrible in many ways. They are just terrible for different reasons.
Agreed. I'd add that, if your understanding of a country's legal system is based on one case and the (frequently sensationalistic) media coverage thereof, that understanding is always going to be horribly flawed, no matter which country we're talking about.
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Even in Italy, the confession WAS thrown out. The problem is Italian juries aren't sequestered, so they learned all about it anyway.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
And I didn't know the State Department had the authority to issue arrest warrants. Wouldn't that have to go through a US judge in the first place?
Rigorous Scholarship
that certainly was interesting, thanks
This is because Texas is an awful place (in regards to it's criminal justice system, and how people view justice overall)
My favorite part of that video is that the police chief agrees with the lawyer, just from the cop's perspective.
Seriously, I'd rather be on trial in any part of the US rather than almost any other country in the world. Our system provides a level of protection to the accused that is almost unheard of in the rest of the world.
Rigorous Scholarship
And the state department isn't the issuant of the warrent. Thats why I said it goes down through the chain. Warrent is issued before you are arrested, there is a process for this but I didnt want to get into the details because they wern't important, when each step is basically 'is paperwork in order, y? next step, n? return to step above to get paperwork in order'.
Anyway back to that video, the biggest takeaway for me is this...
paraphrasing here:
Nothing you say to a cop can be used FOR you in court, only against you. So you stand to gain absolutely nothing saying anything.
Because when I look at that image, I think some super horny American student had a violent sex game with her unwilling roomate and then tortured and killed her.
Rigorous Scholarship
Italy has the right to silence implicitly under the European Convention on Human Rights.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Maybe she never asked for a lawyer while she was interrogated overnight without sleep, but I doubt it. Right to silence becomes kind of irrelevant if they can just imprison you until you talk.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Again, she would have the right to a legal representation and they wouldn't be able to imprison you until you talk either, again under the European Convention on Human Rights.
@Modern Man Protocol 7 provides a double jeopardy law (Ne bis in idem, which incidentally is from Roman Civil Law). As I understand it, in Italy the prosecution may appeal an acquittal to a higher court, which counts as a continuation of the original trial, so she has not been 'finally acquitted'.
Not a book, but rent "The Thin Blue Line."
The film, not the TV series right?
Hahaha I had completely forgotten about the TV show. I mean really either of them will give you the scoop on incompetent police.
Those are things that might be perfectly true, the point is that Italy's legal system is so corrupt, they pretty much ignored all of those things.
Its my understanding that the European Convention on Human Rights is fairly toothless though. Like they can go "You can't do that!" and everyone nods gravely and ignores them. Are people ever freed after appealing to the European Court of Human Rights?
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Then take your appeal to Strasbourg and rid yourself of the Italian legal system entirely?
Your understanding is off.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I think your understanding is wrong, it get's laws changed in countries when they're found in contravention of the charter. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudgeon_v_United_Kingdom for example)
A very useful lecture, even in countries without explicit laws like the 5th.
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
I'm sure that solution was made abundantly clear by the apparently horribly corrupt Italian Prosecutors and legal system to the American tourist with 2 months worth of Italian under her belt. It's almost like she was denied counsel for extended periods and thrown in prison after a laughably corrupt trial in which there was almost no real evidence against her...
You're cute, this is cute.
It's very rare that police will pay off in cases of things like this. Also, Italy sounds like a really dickish place, so it's kind of a two-fer no-fer.
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That said, all countries have certain flaws in their judicial systems. The UK system for example, you do not have a right to silence, as certain inferences can be taken from a suspects decision to remain silent. In addition much has been made of our various treaties in which we extradite people to certain countries without looking at the evidence for extradition.
How often do you hear that a Judge and Prosecutor on a major case in America are under investigation for corruption and for tampering with evidence and an investigation, and then none of them being replaced, at any point.
I mean, if that ever happened, I can't remember it.
That is a fantastic book, and it certainly colored my opinion of the Italian judicial system.
How often do you hear about Italy killing its prisoners or torturing foreign nationals?
I mean, if that ever happened, I can't remember it.
(I know I'm being a bit of a silly goose, but it does annoy me sometimes when people seem to assume America is 'home of the free')
You say this like it hasn't been pointed out, numerous times, BY AMERICANS, that the American system is deeply flawed in many ways. People aren't saying the American system is flawless, they're saying that in general the Italian system seems worse.