I also know that is not so widely accepted in American society at large who according to Gallup at least oppose closing Gitmo.
Cite this, or stop repeating it.
It contradicts clear evidence in the election of Obama. If such a poll with these results exists, I'd be very curious to see the wording and sample size.
There's a vocal minority who oppose closing gitmo. That doesn't mean anything.
Not Gitmo, but we're fans of torture (towards the bottom). Which says a few things about our view of justice.
Good thing we have that eighth amendment.
Since, you know, we're trying to parallel JUDICIAL systems.
Wasn't Palin arguing the constitution only applied to US citizens a couple of weeks ago? Something about the terrorist trial in New York or something iirc.
I also know that is not so widely accepted in American society at large who according to Gallup at least oppose closing Gitmo.
Cite this, or stop repeating it.
It contradicts clear evidence in the election of Obama. If such a poll with these results exists, I'd be very curious to see the wording and sample size.
There's a vocal minority who oppose closing gitmo. That doesn't mean anything.
Not Gitmo, but we're fans of torture (towards the bottom). Which says a few things about our view of justice.
Good thing we have that eighth amendment.
Since, you know, we're trying to parallel JUDICIAL systems.
Wasn't Palin arguing the constitution only applied to US citizens a couple of weeks ago? Something about the terrorist trial in New York or something iirc.
Yes. There are people who think the protections only apply to citizens, which is amazingly stupid and I'm pretty sure not what the founders wrote or meant.
As an American, I'm sorry about Gitmo. It is a travesty of traditional justice, on a quasi-personal level, as I hold a degree is criminal justice. That said, I do wonder sometimes about its anti-terror effectiveness, as we haven't had another terrorist attack on American soil since 9/11, which is rather astounding when you think about it.
Not really. Quick, name every foreign terrorist attack on US soil.
There are only two!
Actually, there have been quite a bit more, especially if you count political assasinations and/or FALN (though I wouldn't argue if you consider that domestic). Also, you should be looking at the number of attempted attacks in addition to the number of successful ones.
Knuckle Dragger on
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
I also know that is not so widely accepted in American society at large who according to Gallup at least oppose closing Gitmo.
Cite this, or stop repeating it.
It contradicts clear evidence in the election of Obama. If such a poll with these results exists, I'd be very curious to see the wording and sample size.
There's a vocal minority who oppose closing gitmo. That doesn't mean anything.
Not Gitmo, but we're fans of torture (towards the bottom). Which says a few things about our view of justice.
Good thing we have that eighth amendment.
Since, you know, we're trying to parallel JUDICIAL systems.
Wasn't Palin arguing the constitution only applied to US citizens a couple of weeks ago? Something about the terrorist trial in New York or something iirc.
Some one attempting to argue a thing doesn't make them right.
Keep in mind that the american public chose NOT to elect her.
You know Phoenix Wright?
Yeah, there's a reason for that.
Only via internet meme.
It's a Japanese game based on the work of a defense attorney who has to acquit those who are innocent. The game play works primarily because Phoenix Wright has a hell of a time acquitting those who are innocent. He has a hell of a time primarily because the system is stacked against him, in that he must poke holes repeatedly in the prosecution's case in order to keep the judge from calling the case immediately. Furthermore, even after significant holes have been made Wright has to prove innocence, generally doing so by finding the real culprit at the actual scene of the crime.
Granted, the game is nowhere near reality (it uses spirit mediums, for example), but the game works primarily because the Japanese court system is geared towards conviction, meaning that even the innocent have trouble getting away.
A friend of mine is a Federal prosecutor. He spent some time in Europe working on some interpol-related stuff. He notes that European legal systems tend to have less protection for the accused, while also having lesser punishments for crimes. On the other hand, the US has more protection for the accused, but heavier punishment.
It's a different mindset, I think- The US system is more geared towards keeping the innocent out of jail.
As for this case- I tend to think this girl is probably guilty of something, at the very least she was an accessory after the fact. But this case was such a royal clusterfuck, I wouldn't have convicted her if I was on the jury. "Probably" guilty isn't enough.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
Can we just all agree that Gitmo sucks, and move on from this tangent?
Bad cases make bad law. The situation at Gitmo is so far outside of the norm of American jurisprudence as to be meaningless.
The Amanda Knox case is a pretty run-of-the-mill murder trial. If the fuckups in this case are in any way representative of Italian jurisprudence, that's a really bad situation.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
At the urging of Senator Maria Cantwell (Dem: Washington), it looks like Hillary will be getting involved on some level. This might lead to a prisoner transfer, or maybe a swap if we're holding any Italian nationals. Which could, conceivably, pave the way for a domestic (re)trial of the case, as I doubt she would be outright pardoned due to prosecutorial misconduct (which I'm sure wouldn't be hard to prove).
In the interest of (finally) conducting a fair and impartial trial, I think that would be a Good Thing. Anyone want to postulate how this might shake out?
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BarcardiAll the WizardsUnder A Rock: AfganistanRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
case would take about a day to be acquitted, probably at the request of the prosecution
As an American, I'm sorry about Gitmo. It is a travesty of traditional justice, on a quasi-personal level, as I hold a degree is criminal justice. That said, I do wonder sometimes about its anti-terror effectiveness, as we haven't had another terrorist attack on American soil since 9/11, which is rather astounding when you think about it.
Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol is working like a charm!
At the urging of Senator Maria Cantwell (Dem: Washington), it looks like Hillary will be getting involved on some level. This might lead to a prisoner transfer, or maybe a swap if we're holding any Italian nationals. Which could, conceivably, pave the way for a domestic (re)trial of the case, as I doubt she would be outright pardoned due to prosecutorial misconduct (which I'm sure wouldn't be hard to prove).
In the interest of (finally) conducting a fair and impartial trial, I think that would be a Good Thing. Anyone want to postulate how this might shake out?
It's funny that this is what tips off American's to Italy's corruption, rather than the head of state has made it illegal to investigate his misconduct.
If this wasn't a hot white chick, would there be as much coverage about it? Would we even have a thread?
Yes.
I don't know that we would. There are plenty of young black males who have been railroaded into US prisons. They don't have threads, because we never hear about them.
I don't know that we would. There are plenty of young black males who have been railroaded into US prisons. They don't have threads, because we never hear about them.
Given the international nature of these proceedings and especially the notoriety of the Italian judicial players, I'd say it'd be a fair shot that that even a poor black man would've garnered SOME attention.
Granted, though, it DID help that the defendant was a young, attractive white woman (with some screws loose). Females, especially pretty ones, tend to get far more press time in these situations, whether they be murder suspects, abductees, or involved in other things of a nefarious nature. Men are expected to suck it up. Look at the Nigel Brennan and Amanda Lindhout abduction, which was (thankfully) finally resolved with their release after an unimaginable 15 months in captivity. If it had just been Nigel, there would not've been nearly the same amount of coverage. The same would probably have held true in the Ling/Lee affair (what if it had been Mitch Koss that had been dragged back to the DPRK while the girls got away?).
Still, all it takes is a few news outlets to pick up and run with a story of this type, gender and race being immaterial.
The severity is different, but I will bring up that kid that got caught vandalizing in Singapore and got caned.
That was huge over here.
Oh, yes, I remember the flurry of news that caused. Didn't he wind-up getting a "light" caning, though, as a result of the news coverage that the sentence was barbaric in Western terms?
The severity is different, but I will bring up that kid that got caught vandalizing in Singapore and got caned.
That was huge over here.
Oh, yes, I remember the flurry of news that caused. Didn't he wind-up getting a "light" caning, though, as a result of the news coverage that the sentence was barbaric in Western terms?
Something like that. So, this isn't the first time that people have been up at arms at a foreign judicial system.
The severity is different, but I will bring up that kid that got caught vandalizing in Singapore and got caned.
That was huge over here.
Oh, yes, I remember the flurry of news that caused. Didn't he wind-up getting a "light" caning, though, as a result of the news coverage that the sentence was barbaric in Western terms?
Something like that. So, this isn't the first time that people have been up at arms at a foreign judicial system.
Except that was a completely different matter, because nobody was questioning the kid's guilt, or if he got a fair trial, which is the issue here. As I've said before in this thread, a better example was the Corby case in Indonesia, where there were some serious questions regarding whether or not her drug possession trial was being driven less on the evidence and more on a desire by Indonesian authorities to make an example of her.
If this wasn't a hot white chick, would there be as much coverage about it? Would we even have a thread?
Yes.
If this post already exists, would someone else post it again?
Am I really here?
And yes, AngelHedgie, that is another good example. Just trying to provide other examples that come to mind so that it's not a given that the people in this thread who are appalled by this case are simply appalled because the alleged perp is a "pretty white girl". The US media has been up in arms about other foreign legal decisions.
On a side note, I don't find Amanda Knox that pretty to be honest.
It's funny that this is what tips off American's to Italy's corruption, rather than the head of state has made it illegal to investigate his misconduct.
It's funny that this is what tips off American's to Italy's corruption, rather than the head of state has made it illegal to investigate his misconduct.
Elaborate?
It is somewhat different. This case deals with a potentially innocent American citizen get convicted of a murder in proceedings that could charitably be described as "dysfunctional."
The endemic corruption of the Italian political class isn't putting anyone in jail wrongfully, on the other hand. It's letting people who should probably in jail get away with their crimes, but that's a less severe problem.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
It's funny that this is what tips off American's to Italy's corruption, rather than the head of state has made it illegal to investigate his misconduct.
Elaborate?
It is somewhat different. This case deals with a potentially innocent American citizen get convicted of a murder in proceedings that could charitably be described as "dysfunctional."
The endemic corruption of the Italian political class isn't putting anyone in jail wrongfully, on the other hand. It's letting people who should probably in jail get away with their crimes, but that's a less severe problem.
I was more curious about how he's managed to make it illegal to investigate him.
And I don't think it's possible to weight these two things against each other in terms of severity, different as they are.
I was more curious about how he's managed to make it illegal to investigate him.
He made a law that makes it illegal to investigate previous activities of the current head of state until he retires. He said it wasn't in the best interest of the country to destabilize the government with investigating the illegal shit the president did...
I was more curious about how he's managed to make it illegal to investigate him.
He made a law that makes it illegal to investigate previous activities of the current head of state until he retires. He said it wasn't in the best interest of the country to destabilize the government with investigating the illegal shit the president did...
Berlusconi is awesome.
Didn't that not pass?
I know he made the statute of limitations really short on financial crimes, so that all his pending court cases would suddenly be over because it had expired or something.
Berlusconi is absolutely hilarious in a "at least he's not close to home, jesus" kind of way. Kind of like that BNP dude.
I was more curious about how he's managed to make it illegal to investigate him.
He made a law that makes it illegal to investigate previous activities of the current head of state until he retires. He said it wasn't in the best interest of the country to destabilize the government with investigating the illegal shit the president did...
Berlusconi is awesome.
Didn't that not pass?
I know he made the statute of limitations really short on financial crimes, so that all his pending court cases would suddenly be over because it had expired or something.
Berlusconi is absolutely hilarious in a "at least he's not close to home, jesus" kind of way. Kind of like that BNP dude.
Oh I dunno about whether it passed actually. The fact that he tried it is already hilarious.
And he's better than the BNP dude. Berlusconi got wit and charm, he's loved by many because he makes for an excellent show even when he's being a criminal.
I really think this trial will be decided, in the end, by whoever the media sides with.
First it was the brave Italian prosecutor throwing this she-devil, this corrupting American temptress in prison. Now, it could be about the downfall of a lunatic prosecutor who has thrown a sweet innocent girl in jail to satisfy his mad lust for power.
Either way, everyone actually involved in the case (the Knox family, Knox, her boyfriends family, her boyfriend, and the victim's family) all lose. The victim's family will know they only saw the justice of a kangaroo court, and possibly saw an innocent girl and guy sent to jail for decades. Hardly the solace of a guilty verdict they were hoping for. Heh, now I'm sounding as dramatic as the Italian media.
I was more curious about how he's managed to make it illegal to investigate him.
He made a law that makes it illegal to investigate previous activities of the current head of state until he retires. He said it wasn't in the best interest of the country to destabilize the government with investigating the illegal shit the president did...
Berlusconi is awesome.
Didn't that not pass?
I know he made the statute of limitations really short on financial crimes, so that all his pending court cases would suddenly be over because it had expired or something.
Berlusconi is absolutely hilarious in a "at least he's not close to home, jesus" kind of way. Kind of like that BNP dude.
Oh I dunno about whether it passed actually. The fact that he tried it is already hilarious.
And he's better than the BNP dude. Berlusconi got wit and charm, he's loved by many because he makes for an excellent show even when he's being a criminal.
And, you know, owning most of the media. He's basically President Rupert Murdoch.
Posts
Wasn't Palin arguing the constitution only applied to US citizens a couple of weeks ago? Something about the terrorist trial in New York or something iirc.
Yes. There are people who think the protections only apply to citizens, which is amazingly stupid and I'm pretty sure not what the founders wrote or meant.
Actually, there have been quite a bit more, especially if you count political assasinations and/or FALN (though I wouldn't argue if you consider that domestic). Also, you should be looking at the number of attempted attacks in addition to the number of successful ones.
- John Stuart Mill
Some one attempting to argue a thing doesn't make them right.
Keep in mind that the american public chose NOT to elect her.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
It's a different mindset, I think- The US system is more geared towards keeping the innocent out of jail.
As for this case- I tend to think this girl is probably guilty of something, at the very least she was an accessory after the fact. But this case was such a royal clusterfuck, I wouldn't have convicted her if I was on the jury. "Probably" guilty isn't enough.
Rigorous Scholarship
The Amanda Knox case is a pretty run-of-the-mill murder trial. If the fuckups in this case are in any way representative of Italian jurisprudence, that's a really bad situation.
Rigorous Scholarship
In the interest of (finally) conducting a fair and impartial trial, I think that would be a Good Thing. Anyone want to postulate how this might shake out?
annnnnd her bf would still be in jail
"Lisa, I want to buy your rock."
Thank the (non-existant) God!
Well we did conquer Italy without serious resistance once as I recall
If this wasn't a hot white chick, would there be as much coverage about it? Would we even have a thread?
Yes.
I don't know that we would. There are plenty of young black males who have been railroaded into US prisons. They don't have threads, because we never hear about them.
Granted, though, it DID help that the defendant was a young, attractive white woman (with some screws loose). Females, especially pretty ones, tend to get far more press time in these situations, whether they be murder suspects, abductees, or involved in other things of a nefarious nature. Men are expected to suck it up. Look at the Nigel Brennan and Amanda Lindhout abduction, which was (thankfully) finally resolved with their release after an unimaginable 15 months in captivity. If it had just been Nigel, there would not've been nearly the same amount of coverage. The same would probably have held true in the Ling/Lee affair (what if it had been Mitch Koss that had been dragged back to the DPRK while the girls got away?).
Still, all it takes is a few news outlets to pick up and run with a story of this type, gender and race being immaterial.
That was huge over here.
Something like that. So, this isn't the first time that people have been up at arms at a foreign judicial system.
Except that was a completely different matter, because nobody was questioning the kid's guilt, or if he got a fair trial, which is the issue here. As I've said before in this thread, a better example was the Corby case in Indonesia, where there were some serious questions regarding whether or not her drug possession trial was being driven less on the evidence and more on a desire by Indonesian authorities to make an example of her.
If this post already exists, would someone else post it again?
Am I really here?
And yes, AngelHedgie, that is another good example. Just trying to provide other examples that come to mind so that it's not a given that the people in this thread who are appalled by this case are simply appalled because the alleged perp is a "pretty white girl". The US media has been up in arms about other foreign legal decisions.
On a side note, I don't find Amanda Knox that pretty to be honest.
Elaborate?
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
The endemic corruption of the Italian political class isn't putting anyone in jail wrongfully, on the other hand. It's letting people who should probably in jail get away with their crimes, but that's a less severe problem.
Rigorous Scholarship
I was more curious about how he's managed to make it illegal to investigate him.
And I don't think it's possible to weight these two things against each other in terms of severity, different as they are.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
Berlusconi is awesome.
Didn't that not pass?
I know he made the statute of limitations really short on financial crimes, so that all his pending court cases would suddenly be over because it had expired or something.
Berlusconi is absolutely hilarious in a "at least he's not close to home, jesus" kind of way. Kind of like that BNP dude.
He's still a fucking despot though.
Oh I dunno about whether it passed actually. The fact that he tried it is already hilarious.
And he's better than the BNP dude. Berlusconi got wit and charm, he's loved by many because he makes for an excellent show even when he's being a criminal.
In the modern world, pretty = not fat.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
also, knowing that [allegedly] stabbed a chick in the neck makes her hotter.
those sparkly, murderous eyes...
update: no dna in the room, none found...
and they will appeal, they have 90 days to do so.
First it was the brave Italian prosecutor throwing this she-devil, this corrupting American temptress in prison. Now, it could be about the downfall of a lunatic prosecutor who has thrown a sweet innocent girl in jail to satisfy his mad lust for power.
Either way, everyone actually involved in the case (the Knox family, Knox, her boyfriends family, her boyfriend, and the victim's family) all lose. The victim's family will know they only saw the justice of a kangaroo court, and possibly saw an innocent girl and guy sent to jail for decades. Hardly the solace of a guilty verdict they were hoping for. Heh, now I'm sounding as dramatic as the Italian media.
And, you know, owning most of the media. He's basically President Rupert Murdoch.
10 bucks says he'll try to blame this on the leftist media painting him as a jackass instead of the Moral Saviour that he is.