It would be easier to just say that Video Games are mainstream.
The Sopranos was mainstream.
The problem is all this artsy farts stuff about characters and themes are things that without exception are considered secondary to gameplay, and there's no production or publishing model for projects that want to prioritize anything else. Therefore games are going to be primarily dealing in emotions of survival, brutality, or simply competition and not much else for the near future.
Except you can do both - look at Mirror's Edge, for example. Faith is probably one of the most realistic female characters ever, and that comes from her design, which doesn't veer into stereotypes. And even then, you still had idiots that thought she needed to be "tarted up".
Faith is a size one.
Yes, but with an athletic build and a small bustline that fits into her character as a whole - having to run along the tops of buildings, she's not going to be both lithe and stacked. There's also the fact that's she's very clearly ethnically Asian while avoiding being stereotypically so, which is another thing rather avoided in a lot of games.
And going back to the lists, the typical things that make women physically attractive - a curvy body, large bust, etc. - tend to be things that focus only on the woman's ability to reproduce. In comparison, the things that make men physically attractive - muscles and a well developed body - are things that make them physically capable. Which is a pretty large gulf.
Think about it - if you were shown a picture of a female bodybuilder, what would your reaction be?
I'd imagine similar to how most women would react to this image
Yum yum, there's some male ideal right there. I bet the women will be lining up to accept his sperm.
I also like how you're saying women should be "curvy" and "busty" without defining the terms. Do you mean your average Size 2 with a B cup, Size 3 with a B/C, Size 4+B/C, Size 5+C? Size 7+D? Size 10+FFFFF? Specious, dodgy statement is specious and dodgy.
Why are we blaming the manifold failings of adolescent boys on the videogame industry, again?
Because in large part the gaming industry seems to be run by them. Remember the developer's rationale for why Lara Croft was made an attractive female - "if I'm going to be watching an ass for 10+ hours, I want it to be an ass I want to look at."
See, I don't think that's particularly sexist. All other things being equal, why not make her an attractive woman? Making a female character sexy is not the same as saying she's not as good as a man.
Because it wasn't "well, we have a strong story that calls for a well thought out female character," it was "I'd rather look at a female ass." You can't see why that would be rather sexist?
'I'd rather look at a female ass than a male one, and I think our target audience feels the same way' does not equal 'women are only good for fucking'.
No, but both thoughts come from the same wellspring. Croft's gender didn't come from the concept of her character, it came from a desire to titillate.
Jill Valentine from Resident Evil 3 (A woman who had prepared in advance to escape from a zombie infested city) compared to Carlos Oliveria, the male sidekick in the game.
Leon, the main character from Resident Evil 4, compared to the female secret agent he's competing against.
Frank West, protaganist of Dead Rising, compared to the woman semi-antagonist, Isabella.
Ivy, from Soul Calibur IV, compared to her father, Cervantes
That's off the top of my head. It's about a thousand times easier to find a game wherein the male protaganist is covered and sensibly dressed. So easy, in fact, that I doubt most gamers ever think about it until a particularly ridiculous example like Chris Redfield in RE5 pops up.
Obviously there are examples - Valve, Nintendo, Blizzard games (for the most part), Bioware games... But they're sadly not as common as I might like.
In addition, most male frames are muscular - but not necessarily made for women to gawk and drool over. It makes sense for the Prince of Persia to be ripped and muscular. A woman in a similar platformer game rarely gets those same muscles. There's two-three body types that most video game ladies share, unfortunately.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Unless it's a comedy game (and those are as common as hens' teeth), there's no utility in having a "realistic" character. Games, no matter how much some might protest, aren't dramatic media where realism is dependent. Considering most games' occuring in space or fictional ancient histories, I don't see how realism is even a broad concern, and I would bet many of you would agree.
Being a wish-fulfillment mechanism isn't a get out of jail free card. If exploiting sexuality is tasteless in one context it is still tasteless in a game; if promoting a stereotype is uncool in one medium it is still uncool in a game. And this is, again, without even getting beyond simple questions of how women are depicted within the game to the deeper questions about the degree to which it is just assumed that the player will be a young man between the ages of twelve and thirty.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
Am I the only one who remembers the women from Far Cry 2? Or would they count as outliers.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
No, but both thoughts come from the same wellspring. Croft's gender didn't come from the concept of her character, it came from a desire to titillate.
The thing about this kind of game is that character isn't remotely important. The main character is a cipher with no real personality, and this would be true no matter what gender they were. So her gender couldn't come from the concept of her character, because that's not something that exists in these games. They designed Lara Croft on the basis that they simply needed someone on screen and it didn't matter what they look like, so it might as well look like someone that will increase sales. This may be titillating, but there's nothing inherently sexist about titillation, and that word is beginning to lose all meaning for me.
I see women with less clothes on than Isabella all the time. Besides, everyone knows Frank endsup in his drawers and a teddy bear hat anyway.
Has anyone mentioned Samus? Despite what they've done with her lately, Samus.
Huh? She's always been depicted as having little on under her armor. Seriously, the Zero Suit in many ways is an improvement.
99.9% of the game she's in her armor however. Which is big, bulky, armor that one would logically expect someone to wear in a hostile alien environment.
Edit: I don't think having Samus being beautiful/sexy is necessarily a bad thing. Wouldn't it send a bad message if Samus was I don't know, ugly or something? Sorry women, if you want to be independent and strong than no one will find you attractive. It seems like no matter how Samus was portrayed you guys would say it was a loss.
Edit: I don't think having Samus being beautiful/sexy is necessarily a bad thing. Wouldn't it send a bad message if Samus was I don't know, ugly or something? Sorry women, if you want to be independent and strong than no one will find you attractive. It seems like no matter how Samus was portrayed you guys would say it was a loss.
I don't think Samus is a big deal. I think it's kind of cool that we have a hero whose sex characteristics aren't really an issue at all. They certainly aren't used as marketing fodder.
I do think it's a shame that you preemptively decided what "you people" are going to say and then bemoaned that. Nobody's been sent here from Feminist Central, dude, and we're not comparing notes with each other the better to yell at you with. I think it's kind of sad that, as the very first page of this thread showed, everyone heard the F word and immediately went into holy shit defensive mode.
Edit: I don't think having Samus being beautiful/sexy is necessarily a bad thing. Wouldn't it send a bad message if Samus was I don't know, ugly or something? Sorry women, if you want to be independent and strong than no one will find you attractive. It seems like no matter how Samus was portrayed you guys would say it was a loss.
I don't think Samus is a big deal. I think it's kind of cool that we have a hero whose sex characteristics aren't really an issue at all. They certainly aren't used as marketing fodder.
I do think it's a shame that you preemptively decided what "you people" are going to say and then bemoaned that. Nobody's been sent here from Feminist Central, dude, and we're not comparing notes with each other the better to yell at you with. I think it's kind of sad that, as the very first page of this thread showed, everyone heard the F word and immediately went into holy shit defensive mode.
It wasn't the F-word that put us in defensive mode, it was the thinly veiled insinuation by the op that we were all troglodytes who only think shallowly.
It wasn't the F-word that put us in defensive mode, it was the thinly veiled insinuation by the op that we were all troglodytes who only think shallowly.
Oh, I absolutely agree the OP was moronic. Clearly academia is in need of some stereotype-dispelling itself. But the hurfdurfing for like two pages afterward was all on us.
Really, posting an endless stream of images that show how males in entertainment are just as equally idealized as the females - taken to even greater extremes in video games - won't convince you that there exist equally powerful physical stereotypes for both males and females? Both stereotypes are dangerous, it's unhealthy to be as heavily muscled as most video game characters, and it's unhealthy to starve yourself down to being a hundred pound waif.
Hah. Give it another 15-20 years and the body image pressures on people in the western world will be roughly equally retarded by gender, but we're not there yet. I hate to break it to you, but by any objective measure (incidence of eating disorders, body dysmorphias, depression, etc), women still have it worse. And women pay for not being attractive in ways that men don't - overweight and obese women attract a measurable pay penalty that doesn't hit men in the same jobs, for instance.
That shouldn't detract from a discussion about how to get a more sane range of what's considered attractive into our culture, of course.
I thought this was a thread about feminism, not what videogame characters look like.
Oh well.
Clearly you haven't been paying attention Cat. See, it ONLY matters how they look, not that women always need a short, fat, plumber to rescue them from castle after castle.
That's not important at all.
Sentry on
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wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
I thought this was a thread about feminism, not what videogame characters look like.
Oh well.
Please, feel free to just make a bitchy, shitty comment instead of trying to bring up any legitimate point.
Oh wait looks like you already did.
Fuck off, Khavall. There is so much to talk about with regard to women and gaming, and we're back to the same old sophomoric shit about Lara Croft's tits. Its a distraction, a side issue, and a waste of a thread.
I thought this was a thread about feminism, not what videogame characters look like.
Oh well.
Please, feel free to just make a bitchy, shitty comment instead of trying to bring up any legitimate point.
Oh wait looks like you already did.
Fuck off, Khavall. There is so much to talk about with regard to women and gaming, and we're back to the same old sophomoric shit about Lara Croft's tits. Its a distraction, a side issue, and a waste of a thread.
Then make a statement. How many threads have had a shitty OP that have turned into a good thread? Ok, now how many have done so because people decided to comment "SHIT THREAD" on it?
Look, it's a stupid complex issue. And personally, I think that the idea that gaming is specifically somehow more sexist as an entire field is wrong, though I do admit that gaming will tend to be more exploitative due to its audience. I'm not arguing with anything you said, I'm just saying that showing up to say "FUCK THIS THREAD"? Seriously? What the fuck was the point of that?
I thought this was a thread about feminism, not what videogame characters look like.
Oh well.
Please, feel free to just make a bitchy, shitty comment instead of trying to bring up any legitimate point.
Oh wait looks like you already did.
Fuck off, Khavall. There is so much to talk about with regard to women and gaming, and we're back to the same old sophomoric shit about Lara Croft's tits. Its a distraction, a side issue, and a waste of a thread.
So what issues would you like to talk about, then? Honestly curious.
I thought this was a thread about feminism, not what videogame characters look like.
Oh well.
Please, feel free to just make a bitchy, shitty comment instead of trying to bring up any legitimate point.
Oh wait looks like you already did.
Fuck off, Khavall. There is so much to talk about with regard to women and gaming, and we're back to the same old sophomoric shit about Lara Croft's tits. Its a distraction, a side issue, and a waste of a thread.
So what issues would you like to talk about, then? Honestly curious.
Unless it's a comedy game (and those are as common as hens' teeth), there's no utility in having a "realistic" character. Games, no matter how much some might protest, aren't dramatic media where realism is dependent. Considering most games' occuring in space or fictional ancient histories, I don't see how realism is even a broad concern, and I would bet many of you would agree.
Being a wish-fulfillment mechanism isn't a get out of jail free card. If exploiting sexuality is tasteless in one context it is still tasteless in a game; if promoting a stereotype is uncool in one medium it is still uncool in a game. And this is, again, without even getting beyond simple questions of how women are depicted within the game to the deeper questions about the degree to which it is just assumed that the player will be a young man between the ages of twelve and thirty.
I think we can all agree that there's a difference between "exploiting sexuality" and just liking to see attractive people. Hollywood basically only hires attractive people, the catch is that they typically try to pawn them off as regular joes. In games, you're always "THE GALAXY'S ONLY HOPE!" or something ridiculous.
If a female scientist character is attractive? Meh.
If said scientist is using a microscope in nothing but her thong? Tasteless pandering.
Something that I think is interesting is that something isn't really a 'game for women' unless it's IMAGINE BABY FASHION DESIGNER SHOPPER PRINCESS!! Mass Effect, for instance, could be argued as a 'game for women' - there's deep romances, FemShep is just as developed and in my opinion better voice acted then MaleShep, a large part of the game is based off of dialogue, building relationships, making moral choices and building respect and friendship with a large range of people, the combat can be made pretty easy and is simple to pick up (keep in mind that all of these qualities aren't necessarily female-centric, but they are certainly seen that way) -- and yet it's seen as a game 'for guys' by a lot of people. It's like unless they slap Barbie or a pony on the cover of a game, it's a GUY'S GAME that girls just happen to play. Unisex perceptions don't seem to exist.
I thought this was a thread about feminism, not what videogame characters look like.
Oh well.
Please, feel free to just make a bitchy, shitty comment instead of trying to bring up any legitimate point.
Oh wait looks like you already did.
Fuck off, Khavall. There is so much to talk about with regard to women and gaming, and we're back to the same old sophomoric shit about Lara Croft's tits. Its a distraction, a side issue, and a waste of a thread.
So what issues would you like to talk about, then? Honestly curious.
That shouldn't detract from a discussion about how to get a more sane range of what's considered attractive into our culture, of course.
Just taking a wild swing here buddy. :P
Holy crap, someone who actually read my posts! Wicked.
Lets add to that a smattering of stuff off the top of my head:
* the pinkification of game stuff marketed to girls. Because really, fuck pink, and fuck the way pinkified products are often both crappier and more expensive than the 'normal' base product. You know, the product marketed to people. The fact that a lot of this stuff is marketed to really young kids is even worse.
* Online communities and the way they treat minorities, especially women. Those of you who haven't Gamed While Female might not appreciate this, but the headset is not our friend. Dismissing the tirade of hateful aggression that follows pretty much any female voice on an open XBox channel as meaningless or just "immature" is heavy fail, people. The tone of online environments towards female (and queer, and nonwhite) gamers is a massive problem. If its not acceptable to do it to someone's face, why are you making excuses for cowards and choads who do it at a distance?
* The use of females on gaming TV shows and review sites as token eye candy. Uncool.
None of these things are especially isolated from a broader culture of using women's bodies to sell shit while simultaneously devaluing their presence and input (hi there, PETA!!), but they still deserve discussion.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Something that I think is interesting is that something isn't really a 'game for women' unless it's IMAGINE BABY FASHION DESIGNER SHOPPER PRINCESS!! Mass Effect, for instance, could be argued as a 'game for women' - there's deep romances, FemShep is just as developed and in my opinion better voice acted then MaleShep, a large part of the game is based off of dialogue, building relationships, making moral choices and building respect and friendship with a large range of people, the combat can be made pretty easy and is simple to pick up (keep in mind that all of these qualities aren't necessarily female-centric, but they are certainly seen that way) -- and yet it's seen as a game 'for guys' by a lot of people. It's like unless they slap Barbie or a pony on the cover of a game, it's a GUY'S GAME that girls just happen to play. Unisex perceptions don't seem to exist.
And both of the KOTOR games allowed for female player-characters, with different results in the storyline depending on gender and relationships.
However, I do think we'd be a little remiss to not acknowledge some biological differences in the way men and women enjoy and play games. Women, according to some recent studies, play significantly more video games than men, and across a wider age range. But men tend to play competetive games that are highly dependent on spatial awareness, while women tend to play cooperative or puzzle games.
Something that I think is interesting is that something isn't really a 'game for women' unless it's IMAGINE BABY FASHION DESIGNER SHOPPER PRINCESS!! Mass Effect, for instance, could be argued as a 'game for women' - there's deep romances, FemShep is just as developed and in my opinion better voice acted then MaleShep, a large part of the game is based off of dialogue, building relationships, making moral choices and building respect and friendship with a large range of people, the combat can be made pretty easy and is simple to pick up (keep in mind that all of these qualities aren't necessarily female-centric, but they are certainly seen that way) -- and yet it's seen as a game 'for guys' by a lot of people. It's like unless they slap Barbie or a pony on the cover of a game, it's a GUY'S GAME that girls just happen to play. Unisex perceptions don't seem to exist.
What's also 'interesting' is the way that any game where more than token numbers of women take part is ghettoised as a 'girl game'. The Sims, for instance, has something like a 60/40 gender balance, and I'm pretty sure its still in men's favour, but its considered by a lot of gamers to therefore be a 'women's game'. Just because women players don't stick out like a sore thumb. Its very weird.
I thought this was a thread about feminism, not what videogame characters look like.
Oh well.
Please, feel free to just make a bitchy, shitty comment instead of trying to bring up any legitimate point.
Oh wait looks like you already did.
Fuck off, Khavall. There is so much to talk about with regard to women and gaming, and we're back to the same old sophomoric shit about Lara Croft's tits. Its a distraction, a side issue, and a waste of a thread.
So what issues would you like to talk about, then? Honestly curious.
That shouldn't detract from a discussion about how to get a more sane range of what's considered attractive into our culture, of course.
Just taking a wild swing here buddy. :P
Holy crap, someone who actually read my posts! Wicked.
Lets add to that a smattering of stuff off the top of my head:
* the pinkification of game stuff marketed to girls. Because really, fuck pink, and fuck the way pinkified products are often both crappier and more expensive than the 'normal' base product. You know, the product marketed to people. The fact that a lot of this stuff is marketed to really young kids is even worse.
* Online communities and the way they treat minorities, especially women. Those of you who haven't Gamed While Female might not appreciate this, but the headset is not our friend. Dismissing the tirade of hateful aggression that follows pretty much any female voice on an open XBox channel as meaningless or just "immature" is heavy fail, people. The tone of online environments towards female (and queer, and nonwhite) gamers is a massive problem. If its not acceptable to do it to someone's face, why are you making excuses for cowards and choads who do it at a distance?
* The use of females on gaming TV shows and review sites as token eye candy. Uncool.
None of these things are especially isolated from a broader culture of using women's bodies to sell shit while simultaneously devaluing their presence and input (hi there, PETA!!), but they still deserve discussion.
With the way some PC games are heading, the headset is becoming a necessity, nulling the argument of "Just don't talk!" I need to call an incoming in AB, or let my team know that a Hunter grabbed me in L4D while they run for the safe room and such to get the best results. The head set and voice com are so so crucial to co-op gaming that the argument of "don't use them" is ridiculous.
Something that I think is interesting is that something isn't really a 'game for women' unless it's IMAGINE BABY FASHION DESIGNER SHOPPER PRINCESS!! Mass Effect, for instance, could be argued as a 'game for women' - there's deep romances, FemShep is just as developed and in my opinion better voice acted then MaleShep, a large part of the game is based off of dialogue, building relationships, making moral choices and building respect and friendship with a large range of people, the combat can be made pretty easy and is simple to pick up (keep in mind that all of these qualities aren't necessarily female-centric, but they are certainly seen that way) -- and yet it's seen as a game 'for guys' by a lot of people. It's like unless they slap Barbie or a pony on the cover of a game, it's a GUY'S GAME that girls just happen to play. Unisex perceptions don't seem to exist.
And both of the KOTOR games allowed for female player-characters, with different results in the storyline depending on gender and relationships.
However, I do think we'd be a little remiss to not acknowledge some biological differences in the way men and women enjoy and play games. Women, according to some recent studies, play significantly more video games than men, and across a wider age range. But men tend to play competetive games that are highly dependent on spatial awareness, while women tend to play cooperative or puzzle games.
Women also tend to play the kinds of games that don't require you to be at the computer for more than a few minutes at a time*, leading the obsessive FPS and RTS players to go all 'no true scotsman' on them.
* I could get really snippy as to why that may be here, linking all sorts of studies about male and female leisure time, but there's enough ablooing going on already.
With the way some PC games are heading, the headset is becoming a necessity, nulling the argument of "Just don't talk!" I need to call an incoming in AB, or let my team know that a Hunter grabbed me in L4D while they run for the safe room and such to get the best results. The head set and voice com are so so crucial to co-op gaming that the argument of "don't use them" is ridiculous.
Absolutely - leaving aside that telling a female gamer to just switch off is exactly the same as telling her to not leave the house if she doesn't want to get raped. Really, fuck anyone who tries that. I should be able to play whatever game I want without being abused just for showing up.
Something that I think is interesting is that something isn't really a 'game for women' unless it's IMAGINE BABY FASHION DESIGNER SHOPPER PRINCESS!! Mass Effect, for instance, could be argued as a 'game for women' - there's deep romances, FemShep is just as developed and in my opinion better voice acted then MaleShep, a large part of the game is based off of dialogue, building relationships, making moral choices and building respect and friendship with a large range of people, the combat can be made pretty easy and is simple to pick up (keep in mind that all of these qualities aren't necessarily female-centric, but they are certainly seen that way) -- and yet it's seen as a game 'for guys' by a lot of people. It's like unless they slap Barbie or a pony on the cover of a game, it's a GUY'S GAME that girls just happen to play. Unisex perceptions don't seem to exist.
What's also 'interesting' is the way that any game where more than token numbers of women take part is ghettoised as a 'girl game'. The Sims, for instance, has something like a 60/40 gender balance, and I'm pretty sure its still in men's favour, but its considered by a lot of gamers to therefore be a 'women's game'. Just because women players don't stick out like a sore thumb. Its very weird.
That reminds me of the rallying cry in any comment thread on a blog whenever a woman involved in gaming is profiled - "I WISH I HAD A GIRLFRIEND LIKE HER!" In reality, every couple where both members are heavily into gaming ends up with a bit of strife because they're fighting over the console. What people mean by that is "I wish I had a girlfriend who would be passively okay with my hobby, but not take my time away from it."
Maybe I just don't play very much online, but it seems like stuff like everyone on live being a racist hick is a bit exagerrated. While it does depend on the game (Halo seems more white trash than other games) I've mostly encountered kids and stoners. I wouldn't deny that it happens, but it seems odd to hear about it and never see it.
Maybe I'm just lucky. I haven't had anyone javelin glitch me in call of duty either.
* I could get really snippy as to why that may be here, linking all sorts of studies about male and female leisure time, but there's enough ablooing going on already.
I'd actually be interested in seeing some of those studies. Have you linked to them before?
* I could get really snippy as to why that may be here, linking all sorts of studies about male and female leisure time, but there's enough ablooing going on already.
I'd actually be interested in seeing some of those studies. Have you linked to them before?
Eh, google stuff like "housework gender" and "domestic labour distribution" and a lot of stuff will probably turn up. Guys in western cultures are getting better at pulling their weight at home (once differences in paid work hours are accounted for), and its kind of a generational thing, but women are still stuck with the bulk of the housework and caring duties (including caring for their partner's elderly parents as well as their own), and men still tend to make stupid excuses and rely on the way women are more often trained to be more domestic to get away with a lot more 'me time'.
* I could get really snippy as to why that may be here, linking all sorts of studies about male and female leisure time, but there's enough ablooing going on already.
I'd actually be interested in seeing some of those studies. Have you linked to them before?
Eh, google stuff like "housework gender" and "domestic labour distribution" and a lot of stuff will probably turn up. Guys in western cultures are getting better at pulling their weight at home (once differences in paid work hours are accounted for), and its kind of a generational thing, but women are still stuck with the bulk of the housework and caring duties (including caring for their partner's elderly parents as well as their own), and men still tend to make stupid excuses and rely on the way women are more often trained to be more domestic to get away with a lot more 'me time'.
Ah, that stuff. I've seen that before, yeah.
I thought you meant something more like how the different genders spend their leisure/hobby/'me' time and such, not how it ends up divided.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
edited December 2009
My wife likes video games so much I bought her a little TV she could keep next to the stove.
* the pinkification of game stuff marketed to girls. Because really, fuck pink, and fuck the way pinkified products are often both crappier and more expensive than the 'normal' base product. You know, the product marketed to people. The fact that a lot of this stuff is marketed to really young kids is even worse.
I dunno if you were implying this, but I feel what is far worse is the games that go straight for gender roles. Who can forget Ubisoft's launching of the "Imagine" series as part of their efforts to target females? The whole thing was about cooking and childrearing.
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I'd imagine similar to how most women would react to this image
Yum yum, there's some male ideal right there. I bet the women will be lining up to accept his sperm.
I also like how you're saying women should be "curvy" and "busty" without defining the terms. Do you mean your average Size 2 with a B cup, Size 3 with a B/C, Size 4+B/C, Size 5+C? Size 7+D? Size 10+FFFFF? Specious, dodgy statement is specious and dodgy.
No, but both thoughts come from the same wellspring. Croft's gender didn't come from the concept of her character, it came from a desire to titillate.
Leon, the main character from Resident Evil 4, compared to the female secret agent he's competing against.
Frank West, protaganist of Dead Rising, compared to the woman semi-antagonist, Isabella.
Ivy, from Soul Calibur IV, compared to her father, Cervantes
That's off the top of my head. It's about a thousand times easier to find a game wherein the male protaganist is covered and sensibly dressed. So easy, in fact, that I doubt most gamers ever think about it until a particularly ridiculous example like Chris Redfield in RE5 pops up.
Obviously there are examples - Valve, Nintendo, Blizzard games (for the most part), Bioware games... But they're sadly not as common as I might like.
In addition, most male frames are muscular - but not necessarily made for women to gawk and drool over. It makes sense for the Prince of Persia to be ripped and muscular. A woman in a similar platformer game rarely gets those same muscles. There's two-three body types that most video game ladies share, unfortunately.
Being a wish-fulfillment mechanism isn't a get out of jail free card. If exploiting sexuality is tasteless in one context it is still tasteless in a game; if promoting a stereotype is uncool in one medium it is still uncool in a game. And this is, again, without even getting beyond simple questions of how women are depicted within the game to the deeper questions about the degree to which it is just assumed that the player will be a young man between the ages of twelve and thirty.
Has anyone mentioned Samus? Despite what they've done with her lately, Samus.
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The thing about this kind of game is that character isn't remotely important. The main character is a cipher with no real personality, and this would be true no matter what gender they were. So her gender couldn't come from the concept of her character, because that's not something that exists in these games. They designed Lara Croft on the basis that they simply needed someone on screen and it didn't matter what they look like, so it might as well look like someone that will increase sales. This may be titillating, but there's nothing inherently sexist about titillation, and that word is beginning to lose all meaning for me.
Huh? She's always been depicted as having little on under her armor. Seriously, the Zero Suit in many ways is an improvement.
Still kind of sexualized.
99.9% of the game she's in her armor however. Which is big, bulky, armor that one would logically expect someone to wear in a hostile alien environment.
Edit: I don't think having Samus being beautiful/sexy is necessarily a bad thing. Wouldn't it send a bad message if Samus was I don't know, ugly or something? Sorry women, if you want to be independent and strong than no one will find you attractive. It seems like no matter how Samus was portrayed you guys would say it was a loss.
Is there a dude equivilant to this? (NSFW-ish) http://www.raygunx.com/wp-content/uploads/baio5_erocos4-noscale.jpg
I don't think Samus is a big deal. I think it's kind of cool that we have a hero whose sex characteristics aren't really an issue at all. They certainly aren't used as marketing fodder.
I do think it's a shame that you preemptively decided what "you people" are going to say and then bemoaned that. Nobody's been sent here from Feminist Central, dude, and we're not comparing notes with each other the better to yell at you with. I think it's kind of sad that, as the very first page of this thread showed, everyone heard the F word and immediately went into holy shit defensive mode.
Oh well.
It wasn't the F-word that put us in defensive mode, it was the thinly veiled insinuation by the op that we were all troglodytes who only think shallowly.
Oh, I absolutely agree the OP was moronic. Clearly academia is in need of some stereotype-dispelling itself. But the hurfdurfing for like two pages afterward was all on us.
Please, feel free to just make a bitchy, shitty comment instead of trying to bring up any legitimate point.
Oh wait looks like you already did.
Hah. Give it another 15-20 years and the body image pressures on people in the western world will be roughly equally retarded by gender, but we're not there yet. I hate to break it to you, but by any objective measure (incidence of eating disorders, body dysmorphias, depression, etc), women still have it worse. And women pay for not being attractive in ways that men don't - overweight and obese women attract a measurable pay penalty that doesn't hit men in the same jobs, for instance.
That shouldn't detract from a discussion about how to get a more sane range of what's considered attractive into our culture, of course.
Clearly you haven't been paying attention Cat. See, it ONLY matters how they look, not that women always need a short, fat, plumber to rescue them from castle after castle.
That's not important at all.
Fuck off, Khavall. There is so much to talk about with regard to women and gaming, and we're back to the same old sophomoric shit about Lara Croft's tits. Its a distraction, a side issue, and a waste of a thread.
Then make a statement. How many threads have had a shitty OP that have turned into a good thread? Ok, now how many have done so because people decided to comment "SHIT THREAD" on it?
Look, it's a stupid complex issue. And personally, I think that the idea that gaming is specifically somehow more sexist as an entire field is wrong, though I do admit that gaming will tend to be more exploitative due to its audience. I'm not arguing with anything you said, I'm just saying that showing up to say "FUCK THIS THREAD"? Seriously? What the fuck was the point of that?
So what issues would you like to talk about, then? Honestly curious.
Just taking a wild swing here buddy. :P
I think we can all agree that there's a difference between "exploiting sexuality" and just liking to see attractive people. Hollywood basically only hires attractive people, the catch is that they typically try to pawn them off as regular joes. In games, you're always "THE GALAXY'S ONLY HOPE!" or something ridiculous.
If a female scientist character is attractive? Meh.
If said scientist is using a microscope in nothing but her thong? Tasteless pandering.
Holy crap, someone who actually read my posts! Wicked.
Lets add to that a smattering of stuff off the top of my head:
* the pinkification of game stuff marketed to girls. Because really, fuck pink, and fuck the way pinkified products are often both crappier and more expensive than the 'normal' base product. You know, the product marketed to people. The fact that a lot of this stuff is marketed to really young kids is even worse.
* Online communities and the way they treat minorities, especially women. Those of you who haven't Gamed While Female might not appreciate this, but the headset is not our friend. Dismissing the tirade of hateful aggression that follows pretty much any female voice on an open XBox channel as meaningless or just "immature" is heavy fail, people. The tone of online environments towards female (and queer, and nonwhite) gamers is a massive problem. If its not acceptable to do it to someone's face, why are you making excuses for cowards and choads who do it at a distance?
* The use of females on gaming TV shows and review sites as token eye candy. Uncool.
None of these things are especially isolated from a broader culture of using women's bodies to sell shit while simultaneously devaluing their presence and input (hi there, PETA!!), but they still deserve discussion.
And both of the KOTOR games allowed for female player-characters, with different results in the storyline depending on gender and relationships.
However, I do think we'd be a little remiss to not acknowledge some biological differences in the way men and women enjoy and play games. Women, according to some recent studies, play significantly more video games than men, and across a wider age range. But men tend to play competetive games that are highly dependent on spatial awareness, while women tend to play cooperative or puzzle games.
What's also 'interesting' is the way that any game where more than token numbers of women take part is ghettoised as a 'girl game'. The Sims, for instance, has something like a 60/40 gender balance, and I'm pretty sure its still in men's favour, but its considered by a lot of gamers to therefore be a 'women's game'. Just because women players don't stick out like a sore thumb. Its very weird.
It depends on the person really, not the gender.
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With the way some PC games are heading, the headset is becoming a necessity, nulling the argument of "Just don't talk!" I need to call an incoming in AB, or let my team know that a Hunter grabbed me in L4D while they run for the safe room and such to get the best results. The head set and voice com are so so crucial to co-op gaming that the argument of "don't use them" is ridiculous.
Women also tend to play the kinds of games that don't require you to be at the computer for more than a few minutes at a time*, leading the obsessive FPS and RTS players to go all 'no true scotsman' on them.
* I could get really snippy as to why that may be here, linking all sorts of studies about male and female leisure time, but there's enough ablooing going on already.
Absolutely - leaving aside that telling a female gamer to just switch off is exactly the same as telling her to not leave the house if she doesn't want to get raped. Really, fuck anyone who tries that. I should be able to play whatever game I want without being abused just for showing up.
That reminds me of the rallying cry in any comment thread on a blog whenever a woman involved in gaming is profiled - "I WISH I HAD A GIRLFRIEND LIKE HER!" In reality, every couple where both members are heavily into gaming ends up with a bit of strife because they're fighting over the console. What people mean by that is "I wish I had a girlfriend who would be passively okay with my hobby, but not take my time away from it."
Maybe I'm just lucky. I haven't had anyone javelin glitch me in call of duty either.
I'd actually be interested in seeing some of those studies. Have you linked to them before?
Eh, google stuff like "housework gender" and "domestic labour distribution" and a lot of stuff will probably turn up. Guys in western cultures are getting better at pulling their weight at home (once differences in paid work hours are accounted for), and its kind of a generational thing, but women are still stuck with the bulk of the housework and caring duties (including caring for their partner's elderly parents as well as their own), and men still tend to make stupid excuses and rely on the way women are more often trained to be more domestic to get away with a lot more 'me time'.
Ah, that stuff. I've seen that before, yeah.
I thought you meant something more like how the different genders spend their leisure/hobby/'me' time and such, not how it ends up divided.