I mean look at that fucking arm. LOOK AT THAT FUCKING ARM. His god damn arm is bigger then his fucking head. Jesus fuckshit.
And yet he's allowed to wear a whole shirt.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Seriously though, video games are pretty egalitarian in their description of the sexes in that there's no unattractive guys, either. Well, except for Mario maybe. Also, I would wonder how many games have featured stripped to the waist guys with rippling pectorals v. women baring it all.
If you think the main character of Planescape: Torment is attractive, you have more issues than just how mainstream gaming reinforces gender stereotypes. :P
Borderlands also has Mordecai, who's not what most folks would call a looker, especially compared to Lilith, who's yet another stereotypical hot chick.
Lilith is 'balanced' by Roland.
I mean if we want to go the "Stereotypical Hot Chick" route why don't we bring up Prince of Persia, where the relatively normally beautiful Elika guided around the frankly impossibly proportioned Prince? Who flashed the most skin in that game again?
You're missing the point that video games aren't all about big tits and big guns anymore, but encompass a whole gigantic category of ridiculous shit that no one would have ever dreamed of in the 80's, and a lot of it targeted to the whole audience or yes, even directly to women. Even direct targeting to girls and women has changed dramatically. No longer is it just ponies and Barbie, and Disney princesses but you have all sorts. Puzzle games, farming sims, The Sims, Professor Layton type puzzle games, all have been directly marketed and successfully at that towards women and the general audience in the past fifteen years.
Seriously though, video games are pretty egalitarian in their description of the sexes in that there's no unattractive guys, either. Well, except for Mario maybe. Also, I would wonder how many games have featured stripped to the waist guys with rippling pectorals v. women baring it all.
If you think the main character of Planescape: Torment is attractive, you have more issues than just how mainstream gaming reinforces gender stereotypes. :P
Borderlands also has Mordecai, who's not what most folks would call a looker, especially compared to Lilith, who's yet another stereotypical hot chick.
Lilith is 'balanced' by Roland.
I mean if we want to go the "Stereotypical Hot Chick" route why don't we bring up Prince of Persia, where the relatively normally beautiful Elika guided around the frankly impossibly proportioned Prince? Who flashed the most skin in that game again?
Edit: Also, name me a videogame with an unattractive female main player character, other than games where you can completely tweak your character's appearance into Uglytown?
So again, comics, pen and paper, videogames and action movies are all sexist in their portrayal of women. I would suggest this is because of their target demographic.
While I am still interested in some comics and games, I don't feel like the target demographic anymore. And perhaps some other members of these boards would agree with me.
But I think pointing out the fucked up portrayals of women in games is old and tired. I wonder what kind of sexist themes you would find in media targeted towards girls of the same age range, say, 14-20.
And beyond the sexism, what can you do about it? I see two ways to approach it, the supply side or the demand side. The demand side would be somehow convincing teenage boys NOT to gravitate towards scantily clad girls with oversized breasts. Good luck with that. The supply side would be to censor media, which is distasteful, or get publishers to take a stand that would possibly lose them money because of the horny teenage boy market.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Duke Nukem is quite possibly the worst fucking example possibly by any stretch of the imagination. Duke Nukem is a parody of beefcake male characters, and is designed not to be attractive to anyone ever. Duke Nukem is specifically the "Look at these male characters in video games, they wear beaters and sunglasses, they will bone anything female in sight, and they will shoot up anything not female in sight" character
That's...sort of the point Angel was making. Duke is characterized by qualities that make him a better action hero (he's big, he's violent, he's got a rude quip for every occasion), while female characters in games (for instance, the females in Duke) are characterized by qualities that make them more desirable.
The issue here is twofold: firstly, when female characters are given a narrower range of expression - when they are a visual first and a personality second.
Secondly, the underlying assumption that the player of the game will be male and will want to emulate the male action hero qualities and ooh and ahh at the attractive female other. And beneath that, the content of the game itself, which is often likely to be aimed directly at adolescent boys and not anyone else.
Rob talks about Dragon Age and Mass Effect; those games are made notable by the degree to which they accommodate potential female characters by giving them their own points of interest (attractive sexualized male characters to gawk at, gameplay elements that might (or might not) be more to their liking, etc.).
I mean look at that fucking arm. LOOK AT THAT FUCKING ARM. His god damn arm is bigger then his fucking head. Jesus fuckshit.
And yet he's allowed to wear a whole shirt.
If a game designer had a woman with FFFF boobs on a 80 pound frame, would that be OK if she wore a whole shirt? Come on.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Body image for men have gone crazy in film and video games, but using that as a deconstruction of gender stereotypes in video games is just patently misleading.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Why are we talking about games as if they're all one unit, anyway? I can think of plenty of games that have sexist undertones, and I can think of plenty that don't. It's akin to asking 'are books sexist? Do TV shows objectify women?' Some do and some don't. Now, if you want to talk about gamer culture as a whole... then you can't make generalisations either, because as many different types of people play games as there are games. Gaming is not this super-macho Duke Nukem bikini-girl pastiche. Some games are. Most, these days, aren't. So let's stop talking about a whole medium as if it's all one thing.
Quite frankly, I think that the idea that sex doll male characters is totally fine and sex doll female characters is SEXIST is more sexist than having sex doll female characters, because it implies that for some reason girls aren't supposed to like sex, and anything remotely sexual obviously portrays sexism against women.
There aren't ugly people in any medium that could remotely be described as 'fantasy'. Which isn't sexist. because the whole point of fantasy is that it's better than reality.
Except that there are different ways of drawing attractive. The issue is that many female characters are drawn to be titillating, while male characters aren't. For example, would you say that Duke Nukem is drawn/rendered in a mannerthat makes him attractive? Or would you say that he's drawn in a manner that emphasizes his stereotypical "masculine" attributes, but not necessarily in a nammer to make him attractive to the opposite gender? Now look at female characters, and look at how they're drawn/rendered.
There is a difference, and it's pretty big.
Duke Nukem is quite possibly the worst fucking example possibly by any stretch of the imagination. Duke Nukem is a parody of beefcake male characters, and is designed not to be attractive to anyone ever. Duke Nukem is specifically the "Look at these male characters in video games, they wear beaters and sunglasses, they will bone anything female in sight, and they will shoot up anything not female in sight" character
Which actually makes him an excellent jumping off point, because (as you pointed out) he hyperaccentuates all the major attributes of your average male video game character. And look at exactly what got emphasized - muscles, virility, promiscuity, a penchant for violence. But what would you get if you hyperaccentuated the attributes of a female video game character? Pretty much boobs mounted on a stick.
Or to put it simply, gamers would want to be Duke. Gamers would want to fuck his female counterpart. Which is the difference rolled up in a nutshell.
Yeah I'm not following your reasoning at fucking all. Who the fuck would want to be a roided out freak looking at a heart attack in a few days, who probably hides awful acne under that shirt and has balls the size of raisins?
Nobody.
EDIT I think if you ran a quick poll about who people would want to be from video game heroes on this board, a loooot of people would say "Gordon Freeman", simply because he isn't a parody of a parody in a parody of a game.
Remind me again how much of a failure Ahnold was in Hollywood? Because that's the same dynamic at play. And while you might say we would want to be Gordon, consider exactly what group of people you're talking about - a self-selected group of well-educated people who enjoy games.
The thing is, the purpose of these posts are to demonstrate how video games are no more sexist then any other medium (not just comics or RPGS, any medium). I don't understand how that's bad logic.
Because those other media are also aimed squarely at, and are to an overwhelming degree patronized by, young men, and find themselves under very similar critical scrutiny. Appealing to them for support is sort of like going "my mom thinks I'm the smartest kid in school too!"
All media is aimed at young men?
really?
Comic books and RPGs. You know, the things that were being discussed in the post you replied to. Jesus, dude.
Quite frankly, I think that the idea that sex doll male characters is totally fine and sex doll female characters is SEXIST is more sexist than having sex doll female characters, because it implies that for some reason girls aren't supposed to like sex, and anything remotely sexual obviously portrays sexism against women.
the point is that most games still subscribe to the female victim needing to be rescued by the strapping male protagonist. The way they are portrayed is just one part of the issue. Fuck, I'm playing Uncharted right now for the PS3 and every mission I go on seems to be me saving the attractive female reporter.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Duke Nukem is quite possibly the worst fucking example possibly by any stretch of the imagination. Duke Nukem is a parody of beefcake male characters, and is designed not to be attractive to anyone ever. Duke Nukem is specifically the "Look at these male characters in video games, they wear beaters and sunglasses, they will bone anything female in sight, and they will shoot up anything not female in sight" character
That's...sort of the point Angel was making. Duke is characterized by qualities that make him a better action hero (he's big, he's violent, he's got a rude quip for every occasion), while female characters in games (for instance, the females in Duke) are characterized by qualities that make them more desirable.
But he ISN'T. He's making fun of that idea. He's "HA HA GAMES ARE ALL ABOUT CHAUVANISTIC PIGS TALKING ABOUT AND ONLY CARING ABOUT SHOOTING SHIT AND BANGING WOMEN"
My band has a song about how frat boys just care about drinking and banging any convenient vagina, but that doesn't mean that that's actually what all frat boys are like, and using it as proof that it is would be laughable at best.
Media which is aimed at young men tend to sexualise the female characters. Media which is aimed at young women tend to sexualise the male characters. There's nothing inherently sexist about either of these things. It's simply a recognition that sexualisation appeals to people. Now, if that sexualisation is done in such a way as to depict the character as in any way less valid then people of the opposite gender, then it's sexist. I think, in most cases, it's generally not.
Quite frankly, I think that the idea that sex doll male characters is totally fine and sex doll female characters is SEXIST is more sexist than having sex doll female characters, because it implies that for some reason girls aren't supposed to like sex, and anything remotely sexual obviously portrays sexism against women.
It's like you're not even reading other posts. Hyper-masculine characters are not "sex dolls". They're escapist fantasies for the men that play the games they're in. They are designed to embody the characteristics men value in themselves, not the characteristics women value in men.
I mean look at that fucking arm. LOOK AT THAT FUCKING ARM. His god damn arm is bigger then his fucking head. Jesus fuckshit.
And yet he's allowed to wear a whole shirt.
If a game designer had a woman with FFFF boobs on a 80 pound frame, would that be OK if she wore a whole shirt? Come on.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Body image for men have gone crazy in film and video games, but using that as a deconstruction of gender stereotypes in video games is just patently misleading.
Really?
Media is loaded with just as many toxic, ridiculous body images for men as women.
Quite frankly, I think that the idea that sex doll male characters is totally fine and sex doll female characters is SEXIST is more sexist than having sex doll female characters, because it implies that for some reason girls aren't supposed to like sex, and anything remotely sexual obviously portrays sexism against women.
It's like you're not even reading other posts. Hyper-masculine characters are not "sex dolls". They're escapist fantasies for the men that play the games they're in. They are designed to embody the characteristic men value in themselves, not the characteristics women value in men.
I wouldn't like Prince of Persia nearly enough if he was a fat neckbeard with sweaty pits.
nuka on
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Duke Nukem is quite possibly the worst fucking example possibly by any stretch of the imagination. Duke Nukem is a parody of beefcake male characters, and is designed not to be attractive to anyone ever. Duke Nukem is specifically the "Look at these male characters in video games, they wear beaters and sunglasses, they will bone anything female in sight, and they will shoot up anything not female in sight" character
That's...sort of the point Angel was making. Duke is characterized by qualities that make him a better action hero (he's big, he's violent, he's got a rude quip for every occasion), while female characters in games (for instance, the females in Duke) are characterized by qualities that make them more desirable.
But he ISN'T. He's making fun of that idea. He's "HA HA GAMES ARE ALL ABOUT CHAUVANISTIC PIGS TALKING ABOUT AND ONLY CARING ABOUT SHOOTING SHIT AND BANGING WOMEN"
My band has a song about how frat boys just care about drinking and banging any convenient vagina, but that doesn't mean that that's actually what all frat boys are like, and using it as proof that it is would be laughable at best.
So you think the 15-year-olds who bought that game in droves were getting ironic jollies handing twenties to a jiggling sprite stripper? If you say so.
Duke Nukem is quite possibly the worst fucking example possibly by any stretch of the imagination. Duke Nukem is a parody of beefcake male characters, and is designed not to be attractive to anyone ever. Duke Nukem is specifically the "Look at these male characters in video games, they wear beaters and sunglasses, they will bone anything female in sight, and they will shoot up anything not female in sight" character
That's...sort of the point Angel was making. Duke is characterized by qualities that make him a better action hero (he's big, he's violent, he's got a rude quip for every occasion), while female characters in games (for instance, the females in Duke) are characterized by qualities that make them more desirable.
But he ISN'T. He's making fun of that idea. He's "HA HA GAMES ARE ALL ABOUT CHAUVANISTIC PIGS TALKING ABOUT AND ONLY CARING ABOUT SHOOTING SHIT AND BANGING WOMEN"
My band has a song about how frat boys just care about drinking and banging any convenient vagina, but that doesn't mean that that's actually what all frat boys are like, and using it as proof that it is would be laughable at best.
So you think the 15-year-olds who bought that game in droves were getting ironic jollies handing twenties to a jiggling sprite stripper? If you say so.
Since fucking when is the audience or the reaction of the audience means to judge the art?
I guess Stravinsky was the worst composer ever to live by your definition?
EDIT I think if you ran a quick poll about who people would want to be from video game heroes on this board, a loooot of people would say "Gordon Freeman", simply because he isn't a parody of a parody in a parody of a game.
Remind me again how much of a failure Ahnold was in Hollywood? Because that's the same dynamic at play. And while you might say we would want to be Gordon, consider exactly what group of people you're talking about - a self-selected group of well-educated people who enjoy games.
A lot of people would want to be a mute physicist who spends his time moving boxes around? Really?
You seem to be radically underestimating the appeal of stereotypical adolescent male power fantasies (like Duke Nukem) to, say, adolescent boys. Who tend to be the target demographic for most videogames.
Quite frankly, I think that the idea that sex doll male characters is totally fine and sex doll female characters is SEXIST is more sexist than having sex doll female characters, because it implies that for some reason girls aren't supposed to like sex, and anything remotely sexual obviously portrays sexism against women.
It's like you're not even reading other posts. Hyper-masculine characters are not "sex dolls". They're escapist fantasies for the men that play the games they're in. They are designed to embody the characteristic men value in themselves, not the characteristics women value in men.
I wouldn't like Prince of Persia nearly enough if he was a fat neckbeard with sweaty pits.
Anyways I think looking at the evolution of Louis and Francis through the L4D product development cycle is much more interesting then posting pictures of extreme examples. There, you can see right before your very eyes a black man and a biker becoming sanitized for mass-audience appeal.
I mean look at that fucking arm. LOOK AT THAT FUCKING ARM. His god damn arm is bigger then his fucking head. Jesus fuckshit.
And yet he's allowed to wear a whole shirt.
If a game designer had a woman with FFFF boobs on a 80 pound frame, would that be OK if she wore a whole shirt? Come on.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Body image for men have gone crazy in film and video games, but using that as a deconstruction of gender stereotypes in video games is just patently misleading.
Really?
Media is loaded with just as many toxic, ridiculous body images for men as women.
Again, how they are portrayed is only half the story. What they are doing in media and games is the other half.
Also what Grid System said. And, for future reference, you posting random images is not going to suddenly make me see the light, because again, those mean absolutely nothing without context, which I contend is more important then the image itself.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
One of the bigger divides in media in general is that sexualizing imagery is mostly focused on women. When it's on men, it tends to be used as humor instead of titillation.
You don't see quite as many poses of Duke Nukem looking like he wants to give you a back rub and kiss you softly all over.
Quite frankly, I think that the idea that sex doll male characters is totally fine and sex doll female characters is SEXIST is more sexist than having sex doll female characters, because it implies that for some reason girls aren't supposed to like sex, and anything remotely sexual obviously portrays sexism against women.
It's like you're not even reading other posts. Hyper-masculine characters are not "sex dolls". They're escapist fantasies for the men that play the games they're in. They are designed to embody the characteristics men value in themselves, not the characteristics women value in men.
So no girl ever has found any action movie or game protagonist attractive on a purely sexual level?
You think Johnny Depps only appeal is that he's an escapist fantasy?
Only guys read Twilight?
Khavall on
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
I mean look at that fucking arm. LOOK AT THAT FUCKING ARM. His god damn arm is bigger then his fucking head. Jesus fuckshit.
And yet he's allowed to wear a whole shirt.
If a game designer had a woman with FFFF boobs on a 80 pound frame, would that be OK if she wore a whole shirt? Come on.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Body image for men have gone crazy in film and video games, but using that as a deconstruction of gender stereotypes in video games is just patently misleading.
Really?
Media is loaded with just as many toxic, ridiculous body images for men as women.
Again, how they are portrayed is only half the story. What they are doing in media and games is the other half.
Also what Grid System said. And, for future reference, you posting random images is not going to suddenly make me see the light, because again, those mean absolutely nothing without context, which I contend is more important then the image itself.
Really, posting an endless stream of images that show how males in entertainment are just as equally idealized as the females - taken to even greater extremes in video games - won't convince you that there exist equally powerful physical stereotypes for both males and females? Both stereotypes are dangerous, it's unhealthy to be as heavily muscled as most video game characters, and it's unhealthy to starve yourself down to being a hundred pound waif.
Quite frankly, I think that the idea that sex doll male characters is totally fine and sex doll female characters is SEXIST is more sexist than having sex doll female characters, because it implies that for some reason girls aren't supposed to like sex, and anything remotely sexual obviously portrays sexism against women.
It's like you're not even reading other posts. Hyper-masculine characters are not "sex dolls". They're escapist fantasies for the men that play the games they're in. They are designed to embody the characteristics men value in themselves, not the characteristics women value in men.
So no girl ever has found any action movie or game protagonist attractive on a purely sexual level?
You think Johnny Depps only appeal is that he's an escapist fantasy?
Only guys read Twilight?
I don't think those examples prove what you want them to prove.
Why are we blaming the manifold failings of adolescent boys on the videogame industry, again?
Because it's easy to demonize the evil adolescent boys while ignoring that females have equally strong sexual desires. In fact, it's kind of sexist and subtly patronizing, but meh.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
So you think the 15-year-olds who bought that game in droves were getting ironic jollies handing twenties to a jiggling sprite stripper? If you say so.
Since fucking when is the audience or the reaction of the audience means to judge the art?
I guess Stravinsky was the worst composer ever to live by your definition?
You are soaring to new heights of absurdity with every post. 3D Realms are Stravinsky now, are they? I think the key that you're missing here is that even if Duke Nukem was some clever satire of male power fantasies, it also functioned perfectly well as a male power fantasy and can be profitably critiqued as such.
Why are we blaming the manifold failings of adolescent boys on the videogame industry, again?
Because games are new.
They're a cult not a religion.
:P
Gaming is actually one of the more liberal forms of media, all things told. It has some pretty polarized stuff, but sooooo many games allow you to kick the everliving shit out of things as women these days.
Why are we blaming the manifold failings of adolescent boys on the videogame industry, again?
Because in large part the gaming industry seems to be run by them. Remember the developer's rationale for why Lara Croft was made an attractive female - "if I'm going to be watching an ass for 10+ hours, I want it to be an ass I want to look at."
Really, posting an endless stream of images that show how males in entertainment are just as equally idealized as the females - taken to even greater extremes in video games - won't convince you that there exist equally powerful physical stereotypes for both males and females? Both stereotypes are dangerous, it's unhealthy to be as heavily muscled as most video game characters, and it's unhealthy to starve yourself down to being a hundred pound waif.
No. Because it's not just about body image.
Is there anyway I could be more plain when I say that? What is it about that which you aren't getting?
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Why are we blaming the manifold failings of adolescent boys on the videogame industry, again?
Because it's easy to demonize the evil adolescent boys while ignoring that females have equally strong sexual desires. In fact, it's kind of sexist and subtly patronizing, but meh.
Wait, what?
How does pointing out the examples of how media created by adults reinforces gender stereotypes "demonize" the adolescent boys who are the primary consumers of that media, again?
I'd say that ignoring how depictions of hyper-exaggerated masculine potency pander a lot more to male insecurity than female sexual desire is another head-scratcher.
Really, posting an endless stream of images that show how males in entertainment are just as equally idealized as the females - taken to even greater extremes in video games - won't convince you that there exist equally powerful physical stereotypes for both males and females? Both stereotypes are dangerous, it's unhealthy to be as heavily muscled as most video game characters, and it's unhealthy to starve yourself down to being a hundred pound waif.
Because that's not true. Because you're ignoring how the media can and does repeatedly present unattractive male characters as being heroic, sexual people, and rarely if ever does the same for unattractive female characters. Presenting a sample of images designed only to reinforce the false equivalency you want to impose doesn't make it so.
Because it's not just how the media depicts people who fit into the stereotype of the male or female physical ideal, it's how the media portrays those who fall short of that physical ideal. Do you really think men have as many body image issues as women, for example?
So you think the 15-year-olds who bought that game in droves were getting ironic jollies handing twenties to a jiggling sprite stripper? If you say so.
Since fucking when is the audience or the reaction of the audience means to judge the art?
I guess Stravinsky was the worst composer ever to live by your definition?
You are soaring to new heights of absurdity with every post. 3D Realms are Stravinsky now, are they? I think the key that you're missing here is that even if Duke Nukem was some clever satire of male power fantasies, it also functioned perfectly well as a male power fantasy and can be profitably critiqued as such.
Seriously. I don't see much separation between Duke and the protagonists of Predator and Rambo. If Duke was meant as satire, he's a pretty piss-poor one.
Why are we blaming the manifold failings of adolescent boys on the videogame industry, again?
Because it's easy to demonize the evil adolescent boys while ignoring that females have equally strong sexual desires. In fact, it's kind of sexist and subtly patronizing, but meh.
Wait, what?
How does pointing out the examples of how media created by adults reinforces gender stereotypes "demonize" the adolescent boys who are the primary consumers of that media, again?
I'd say that ignoring how depictions of hyper-exaggerated masculine potency pander a lot more to male insecurity than female sexual desire is another head-scratcher.
This is mostly the myth of the adolescent boy growing out of it.
Posts
And yet he's allowed to wear a whole shirt.
Lilith is 'balanced' by Roland.
I mean if we want to go the "Stereotypical Hot Chick" route why don't we bring up Prince of Persia, where the relatively normally beautiful Elika guided around the frankly impossibly proportioned Prince? Who flashed the most skin in that game again?
Edit: Also, name me a videogame with an unattractive female main player character, other than games where you can completely tweak your character's appearance into Uglytown?
If a game designer had a woman with FFFF boobs on a 80 pound frame, would that be OK if she wore a whole shirt? Come on.
EDIT Lawndart, Warrior Within was just a total shitshow of awful extremes and serves no purpose other then to be mocked.
It's the third hand. :P
While I am still interested in some comics and games, I don't feel like the target demographic anymore. And perhaps some other members of these boards would agree with me.
But I think pointing out the fucked up portrayals of women in games is old and tired. I wonder what kind of sexist themes you would find in media targeted towards girls of the same age range, say, 14-20.
And beyond the sexism, what can you do about it? I see two ways to approach it, the supply side or the demand side. The demand side would be somehow convincing teenage boys NOT to gravitate towards scantily clad girls with oversized breasts. Good luck with that. The supply side would be to censor media, which is distasteful, or get publishers to take a stand that would possibly lose them money because of the horny teenage boy market.
That's...sort of the point Angel was making. Duke is characterized by qualities that make him a better action hero (he's big, he's violent, he's got a rude quip for every occasion), while female characters in games (for instance, the females in Duke) are characterized by qualities that make them more desirable.
The issue here is twofold: firstly, when female characters are given a narrower range of expression - when they are a visual first and a personality second.
Secondly, the underlying assumption that the player of the game will be male and will want to emulate the male action hero qualities and ooh and ahh at the attractive female other. And beneath that, the content of the game itself, which is often likely to be aimed directly at adolescent boys and not anyone else.
Rob talks about Dragon Age and Mass Effect; those games are made notable by the degree to which they accommodate potential female characters by giving them their own points of interest (attractive sexualized male characters to gawk at, gameplay elements that might (or might not) be more to their liking, etc.).
It can be hard enough to find a damn bra in a normal size, she'll be better of with duct tape.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. Body image for men have gone crazy in film and video games, but using that as a deconstruction of gender stereotypes in video games is just patently misleading.
Remind me again how much of a failure Ahnold was in Hollywood? Because that's the same dynamic at play. And while you might say we would want to be Gordon, consider exactly what group of people you're talking about - a self-selected group of well-educated people who enjoy games.
Comic books and RPGs. You know, the things that were being discussed in the post you replied to. Jesus, dude.
the point is that most games still subscribe to the female victim needing to be rescued by the strapping male protagonist. The way they are portrayed is just one part of the issue. Fuck, I'm playing Uncharted right now for the PS3 and every mission I go on seems to be me saving the attractive female reporter.
But he ISN'T. He's making fun of that idea. He's "HA HA GAMES ARE ALL ABOUT CHAUVANISTIC PIGS TALKING ABOUT AND ONLY CARING ABOUT SHOOTING SHIT AND BANGING WOMEN"
My band has a song about how frat boys just care about drinking and banging any convenient vagina, but that doesn't mean that that's actually what all frat boys are like, and using it as proof that it is would be laughable at best.
It's like you're not even reading other posts. Hyper-masculine characters are not "sex dolls". They're escapist fantasies for the men that play the games they're in. They are designed to embody the characteristics men value in themselves, not the characteristics women value in men.
Really?
Media is loaded with just as many toxic, ridiculous body images for men as women.
I wouldn't like Prince of Persia nearly enough if he was a fat neckbeard with sweaty pits.
So you think the 15-year-olds who bought that game in droves were getting ironic jollies handing twenties to a jiggling sprite stripper? If you say so.
Since fucking when is the audience or the reaction of the audience means to judge the art?
I guess Stravinsky was the worst composer ever to live by your definition?
A lot of people would want to be a mute physicist who spends his time moving boxes around? Really?
You seem to be radically underestimating the appeal of stereotypical adolescent male power fantasies (like Duke Nukem) to, say, adolescent boys. Who tend to be the target demographic for most videogames.
No, it's really not.
Get back to me when the female versions of Seth Rogen and Kevin James get cast as the leads in romantic comedies.
That's a wonderful false dichotomy.
Again, how they are portrayed is only half the story. What they are doing in media and games is the other half.
Also what Grid System said. And, for future reference, you posting random images is not going to suddenly make me see the light, because again, those mean absolutely nothing without context, which I contend is more important then the image itself.
You don't see quite as many poses of Duke Nukem looking like he wants to give you a back rub and kiss you softly all over.
So no girl ever has found any action movie or game protagonist attractive on a purely sexual level?
You think Johnny Depps only appeal is that he's an escapist fantasy?
Only guys read Twilight?
It's really the other way around.
Really, posting an endless stream of images that show how males in entertainment are just as equally idealized as the females - taken to even greater extremes in video games - won't convince you that there exist equally powerful physical stereotypes for both males and females? Both stereotypes are dangerous, it's unhealthy to be as heavily muscled as most video game characters, and it's unhealthy to starve yourself down to being a hundred pound waif.
I don't think those examples prove what you want them to prove.
Because it's easy to demonize the evil adolescent boys while ignoring that females have equally strong sexual desires. In fact, it's kind of sexist and subtly patronizing, but meh.
You are soaring to new heights of absurdity with every post. 3D Realms are Stravinsky now, are they? I think the key that you're missing here is that even if Duke Nukem was some clever satire of male power fantasies, it also functioned perfectly well as a male power fantasy and can be profitably critiqued as such.
Because games are new.
They're a cult not a religion.
:P
Gaming is actually one of the more liberal forms of media, all things told. It has some pretty polarized stuff, but sooooo many games allow you to kick the everliving shit out of things as women these days.
The main problem is the goddamn artists.
Because in large part the gaming industry seems to be run by them. Remember the developer's rationale for why Lara Croft was made an attractive female - "if I'm going to be watching an ass for 10+ hours, I want it to be an ass I want to look at."
No. Because it's not just about body image.
Is there anyway I could be more plain when I say that? What is it about that which you aren't getting?
Wait, what?
How does pointing out the examples of how media created by adults reinforces gender stereotypes "demonize" the adolescent boys who are the primary consumers of that media, again?
I'd say that ignoring how depictions of hyper-exaggerated masculine potency pander a lot more to male insecurity than female sexual desire is another head-scratcher.
Because that's not true. Because you're ignoring how the media can and does repeatedly present unattractive male characters as being heroic, sexual people, and rarely if ever does the same for unattractive female characters. Presenting a sample of images designed only to reinforce the false equivalency you want to impose doesn't make it so.
Because it's not just how the media depicts people who fit into the stereotype of the male or female physical ideal, it's how the media portrays those who fall short of that physical ideal. Do you really think men have as many body image issues as women, for example?
Seriously. I don't see much separation between Duke and the protagonists of Predator and Rambo. If Duke was meant as satire, he's a pretty piss-poor one.
This is mostly the myth of the adolescent boy growing out of it.