Except that they won't let her put it up for adoption. Did you miss the part where my father wants grandbabies? In addition, and this is the bigger part, is that there will be several months where she really shouldn't work as a waitress, needless to say going to both high school and taking introductory classes at the tech school.
You are saying that the entire pregnancy will not affect her work performance and her education? Because I think it definitely will.
Of course it will. That doesn't mean that I think that her work performance is worth killing a child.
The reason that arguments as to the convenience of the lives of the parents will not sway people who are against abortion is because they believe it is the killing of a human life. At what point is your job or education worth killing a child to protect? Never. So your argument will not sway.
At what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a child? Quite often.
At what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a child? Quite often.
You wouldn't "sacrifice your entire life", don't be melodramatic.
However, if you're actually asking me if I think that your job, or education, is worth killing a child? Never. That you would kill a child for the sake of your own job security or to earn a PHD is appalling, at best. I hope you're simply being inflammatory, because that is a pretty abhorrent mindset.
Do you really think you're going to change my mind by saying something like that?
17th_Knight on
Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence? When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. I am SHODAN.
0
Options
ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
edited January 2010
I find few redeeming qualities in children of this sort:
So in short, I should also be ok with killing toddlers?
Makes sense.
I have like an eight hour school day, starting soon, so I'm going to have to bow out for a bit. Which saddens me greatly. But it's not like my position doesn't have enough support that my points won't be made.
However, if you're actually asking me if I think that your job, or education, is worth killing a child? Never. That you would kill a child for the sake of your own job security or to earn a PHD is appalling, at best. I hope you're simply being inflammatory, because that is a pretty abhorrent mindset.
That you would ask me to change my entire life because of an accident I tried my hardest to prevent is pretty abhorrent. Because, to someone like myself, my job and education ARE my life. In addition, I am making ends meet with my current position, and could not afford a child as it would catipault me into massive debt, this stymieing future plans. not to mention the fact that my fiancee would have to actually gestate and birth this child, and thus take an academic hit when she just got off of academic probation. To us, our future careers ARE what we want our life to be, not a child.
I'm still trying to read this whole thread, but I think abortion should be legal because every act of male masturbation/safe sex kills babies, right? Unless you don't count the sperm as a baby yet, in which case semantics suck.
That you would ask me to change my entire life because of an accident I tried my hardest to prevent is pretty abhorrent. Because, to someone like myself, my job and education ARE my life. In addition, I am making ends meet with my current position, and could not afford a child as it would catipault me into massive debt, this stymieing future plans. not to mention the fact that my fiancee would have to actually gestate and birth this child, and thus take an academic hit when she just got off of academic probation. To us, our future careers ARE what we want our life to be, not a child.
None of that is worth killing a child.
Listen, kid, you're being melodramatic. None of that would occur, your life wouldn't end, you wouldn't be unmade and have no future and nowhere to go. Trust me, you'd do just fine.
But even if that were the case, I still would not condone killing a child to help you get a better job or to not be in debt. Nothing you say is going to change that.
Your bank account, job security, profession, or education are not worth one human life. Your arguments aren't going to convince me otherwise, so why do you bother?
17th_Knight on
Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence? When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. I am SHODAN.
I'm still trying to read this whole thread, but I think abortion should be legal because every act of male masturbation/safe sex kills babies, right? Unless you don't count the sperm as a baby yet, in which case semantics suck.
Y'know, you can criticize it all you want, but I still love Legally Blonde for using this exact argument.
Except that they won't let her put it up for adoption. Did you miss the part where my father wants grandbabies? In addition, and this is the bigger part, is that there will be several months where she really shouldn't work as a waitress, needless to say going to both high school and taking introductory classes at the tech school.
You are saying that the entire pregnancy will not affect her work performance and her education? Because I think it definitely will.
Of course it will. That doesn't mean that I think that her work performance is worth killing a child.
The reason that arguments as to the convenience of the lives of the parents will not sway people who are against abortion is because they believe it is the killing of a human life. At what point is your job or education worth killing a child to protect? Never. So your argument will not sway.
At what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a child? Quite often.
Ooh, that struck a nerve with me. Did you not read where he said he believes it is the killing of a human life? You might as well be saying "at what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a one year old child? Quite often". You see an inherent difference between a fetus and a 1 year old. Pro lifers do not - they're both lives. I sure hope you didn't understand that....
Except that they won't let her put it up for adoption. Did you miss the part where my father wants grandbabies? In addition, and this is the bigger part, is that there will be several months where she really shouldn't work as a waitress, needless to say going to both high school and taking introductory classes at the tech school.
You are saying that the entire pregnancy will not affect her work performance and her education? Because I think it definitely will.
Of course it will. That doesn't mean that I think that her work performance is worth killing a child.
The reason that arguments as to the convenience of the lives of the parents will not sway people who are against abortion is because they believe it is the killing of a human life. At what point is your job or education worth killing a child to protect? Never. So your argument will not sway.
At what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a child? Quite often.
Ooh, that struck a nerve with me. Did you not read where he said he believes it is the killing of a human life? You might as well be saying "at what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a one year old child? Quite often". You see an inherent difference between a fetus and a 1 year old. Pro lifers do not - they're both lives. I sure hope you didn't understand that....
Y'know, my argument still stands even with that statement. A one year old has about the same range of emotion and intellectual development as say, a full grown pig. And people kill those all the time.
Except that they won't let her put it up for adoption. Did you miss the part where my father wants grandbabies? In addition, and this is the bigger part, is that there will be several months where she really shouldn't work as a waitress, needless to say going to both high school and taking introductory classes at the tech school.
You are saying that the entire pregnancy will not affect her work performance and her education? Because I think it definitely will.
Of course it will. That doesn't mean that I think that her work performance is worth killing a child.
The reason that arguments as to the convenience of the lives of the parents will not sway people who are against abortion is because they believe it is the killing of a human life. At what point is your job or education worth killing a child to protect? Never. So your argument will not sway.
At what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a child? Quite often.
Ooh, that struck a nerve with me. Did you not read where he said he believes it is the killing of a human life? You might as well be saying "at what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a one year old child? Quite often". You see an inherent difference between a fetus and a 1 year old. Pro lifers do not - they're both lives. I sure hope you didn't understand that....
Y'know, my argument still stands even with that statement. A one year old has about the same range of emotion and intellectual development as say, a full grown pig. And people kill those all the time.
BUT ITS A CHILD DONT YOU SEE HUMANS ARE NOT ANIMALS BUT WE REALLY ARE ANIMALS BUT WE ARE BETTER THAN ANIMALS WHICH MEANS EVEN THE SLIGHTEST CHILD CASUALTY IS 100% WROOOOONGG LONG LIVE THE CHILD EMPEROR
Yo 17th_knight, I'm real happy that you hate killin' children and imma let you finish but....
this
is not the same as this
at any time. any time.
I decided to go the debate route instead, but seeing as it is (as he admits) impossible to argue with the position of "all abortion is murdering children", I will post it now.
What happens when biomedicine is advanced to the stage that a fetus is viable at almost any point from conception?
I'm actually interested in this question. If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, please share them.
I don't really see it having any legal bearing. Being viable doesn't give it inherent rights. Those pretty much start at the point you first exit a vagina, with the last couple not coming in until after age 20. If we can magically convert all viable fetuses into 18 year olds, then there might be a legal issue.
What happens when biomedicine is advanced to the stage that a fetus is viable at almost any point from conception?
I'm actually interested in this question. If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, please share them.
Sorry, I will bite!
It really depends on what you mean by "viable".
Do you mean able to survive to adulthood? Because I think we are close to that point now. I don't think it changes the game at all. When is the cells at a level where it can interact with its environment beyond being a passive consumer? For humans, this occurs well after the first trimester, which is when most abortions are performed. At that point, the "baby" is barely to the fetal stage, and can do nothing but grow and consume nutrients, much like any other somatic cell. In fact, it is even less useful than other somatic cells, because it cannot even perform its primary function (that is, ensuring the survival of its genetic material).
What happens when biomedicine is advanced to the stage that a fetus is viable at almost any point from conception?
I'm actually interested in this question. If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, please share them.
It occurred to me (before I read your post) that if we could (in early stages) remove the fetus without harming it or the mother and either keep it in stasis or put it in a third party (or artificial) womb, it'd be a nice technological sidestep. No "children" are dying, and effective abortions are plentiful.
Sure, we might have a freezer full of suspended animation kids waiting for barren couples to grow them up, but at least they're not aborted, right? Much better than being aborted.
Ooh, that struck a nerve with me. Did you not read where he said he believes it is the killing of a human life? You might as well be saying "at what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a one year old child? Quite often". You see an inherent difference between a fetus and a 1 year old. Pro lifers do not - they're both lives. I sure hope you didn't understand that
The reason that arguments as to the convenience of the lives of the parents will not sway people who are against abortion is because they believe it is the killing of a human life. At what point is your job or education worth killing a child to protect? Never. So your argument will not sway.
People have answered this and it refuses to stick in other people's heads. Sure those embryonic cells are alive. But so are sloughed-off skin cells, or a yeast culture or a slime mold. Those kinds of life are being extinguished all the time. Everyone here is against the extinguishing of a sapient, conscious entity. But life means jack shit.
What happens when biomedicine is advanced to the stage that a fetus is viable at almost any point from conception?
I'm actually interested in this question. If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, please share them.
Nothing would change, because viability has nothing to do with my position? Difficult as it is to measure and nail down, I care about suffering and happiness. Something that hasn't achieved either is warranted about zero protections.
Except that they won't let her put it up for adoption. Did you miss the part where my father wants grandbabies? In addition, and this is the bigger part, is that there will be several months where she really shouldn't work as a waitress, needless to say going to both high school and taking introductory classes at the tech school.
You are saying that the entire pregnancy will not affect her work performance and her education? Because I think it definitely will.
Of course it will. That doesn't mean that I think that her work performance is worth killing a child.
The reason that arguments as to the convenience of the lives of the parents will not sway people who are against abortion is because they believe it is the killing of a human life. At what point is your job or education worth killing a child to protect? Never. So your argument will not sway.
At what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a child? Quite often.
Ooh, that struck a nerve with me. Did you not read where he said he believes it is the killing of a human life? You might as well be saying "at what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a one year old child? Quite often". You see an inherent difference between a fetus and a 1 year old. Pro lifers do not - they're both lives. I sure hope you didn't understand that....
Y'know, my argument still stands even with that statement. A one year old has about the same range of emotion and intellectual development as say, a full grown pig. And people kill those all the time.
That's beyond abhorrent.
You'd be willing to kill a 1 year old child for your own convenience?
17th_Knight on
Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence? When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. I am SHODAN.
What happens when biomedicine is advanced to the stage that a fetus is viable at almost any point from conception?
I'm actually interested in this question. If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, please share them.
It occurred to me (before I read your post) that if we could (in early stages) remove the fetus without harming it or the mother and either keep it in stasis or put it in a third party (or artificial) womb, it'd be a nice technological sidestep. No "children" are dying, and effective abortions are plentiful.
Sure, we might have a freezer full of suspended animation kids waiting for barren couples to grow them up, but at least they're not aborted, right? Much better than being aborted.
What happens when biomedicine is advanced to the stage that a fetus is viable at almost any point from conception?
I'm actually interested in this question. If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, please share them.
It occurred to me (before I read your post) that if we could (in early stages) remove the fetus without harming it or the mother and either keep it in stasis or put it in a third party (or artificial) womb, it'd be a nice technological sidestep. No "children" are dying, and effective abortions are plentiful.
Sure, we might have a freezer full of suspended animation kids waiting for barren couples to grow them up, but at least they're not aborted, right? Much better than being aborted.
The thing about thinking in terms of "viable" fetuses is that it can quickly lead down a path where every tech at a fertility clinic is a mass murderer.
What happens when biomedicine is advanced to the stage that a fetus is viable at almost any point from conception?
I'm actually interested in this question. If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, please share them.
It occurred to me (before I read your post) that if we could (in early stages) remove the fetus without harming it or the mother and either keep it in stasis or put it in a third party (or artificial) womb, it'd be a nice technological sidestep. No "children" are dying, and effective abortions are plentiful.
Sure, we might have a freezer full of suspended animation kids waiting for barren couples to grow them up, but at least they're not aborted, right? Much better than being aborted.
I decided to go the debate route instead, but seeing as it is (as he admits) impossible to argue with the position of "all abortion is murdering children", I will post it now.
Except that you don't see a difference between them either. You find it just as practical, moral, and acceptable to kill a baby as a fetus, you said so yourself.
17th_Knight on
Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence? When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. I am SHODAN.
I like the Asian philosophy on death much more, it's inevitable, it's a tragedy, and people who murder other people should be punished but preventing death should not be the core obsession of the culture. It's just a part of life.
What happens when biomedicine is advanced to the stage that a fetus is viable at almost any point from conception?
I'm actually interested in this question. If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, please share them.
It occurred to me (before I read your post) that if we could (in early stages) remove the fetus without harming it or the mother and either keep it in stasis or put it in a third party (or artificial) womb, it'd be a nice technological sidestep. No "children" are dying, and effective abortions are plentiful.
Sure, we might have a freezer full of suspended animation kids waiting for barren couples to grow them up, but at least they're not aborted, right? Much better than being aborted.
How is it better than being aborted?
They're still alive. Isn't that the whole point?
What's so great about being alive? Is it a tragedy when I eat a carrot?
Except that they won't let her put it up for adoption. Did you miss the part where my father wants grandbabies? In addition, and this is the bigger part, is that there will be several months where she really shouldn't work as a waitress, needless to say going to both high school and taking introductory classes at the tech school.
You are saying that the entire pregnancy will not affect her work performance and her education? Because I think it definitely will.
Of course it will. That doesn't mean that I think that her work performance is worth killing a child.
The reason that arguments as to the convenience of the lives of the parents will not sway people who are against abortion is because they believe it is the killing of a human life. At what point is your job or education worth killing a child to protect? Never. So your argument will not sway.
At what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a child? Quite often.
Ooh, that struck a nerve with me. Did you not read where he said he believes it is the killing of a human life? You might as well be saying "at what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a one year old child? Quite often". You see an inherent difference between a fetus and a 1 year old. Pro lifers do not - they're both lives. I sure hope you didn't understand that....
Y'know, my argument still stands even with that statement. A one year old has about the same range of emotion and intellectual development as say, a full grown pig. And people kill those all the time.
That's beyond abhorrent.
You'd be willing to kill a 1 year old child for your own convenience?
Do you have anything but appeals to emotion? You have yet to display any logic. In fact, killing you might not even be murder.
What happens when biomedicine is advanced to the stage that a fetus is viable at almost any point from conception?
I'm actually interested in this question. If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, please share them.
It occurred to me (before I read your post) that if we could (in early stages) remove the fetus without harming it or the mother and either keep it in stasis or put it in a third party (or artificial) womb, it'd be a nice technological sidestep. No "children" are dying, and effective abortions are plentiful.
Sure, we might have a freezer full of suspended animation kids waiting for barren couples to grow them up, but at least they're not aborted, right? Much better than being aborted.
How is it better than being aborted?
They're still alive. Isn't that the whole point?
What's so great about being alive? Is it a tragedy when I eat a carrot?
Except that they won't let her put it up for adoption. Did you miss the part where my father wants grandbabies? In addition, and this is the bigger part, is that there will be several months where she really shouldn't work as a waitress, needless to say going to both high school and taking introductory classes at the tech school.
You are saying that the entire pregnancy will not affect her work performance and her education? Because I think it definitely will.
Of course it will. That doesn't mean that I think that her work performance is worth killing a child.
The reason that arguments as to the convenience of the lives of the parents will not sway people who are against abortion is because they believe it is the killing of a human life. At what point is your job or education worth killing a child to protect? Never. So your argument will not sway.
At what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a child? Quite often.
Ooh, that struck a nerve with me. Did you not read where he said he believes it is the killing of a human life? You might as well be saying "at what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a one year old child? Quite often". You see an inherent difference between a fetus and a 1 year old. Pro lifers do not - they're both lives. I sure hope you didn't understand that....
Y'know, my argument still stands even with that statement. A one year old has about the same range of emotion and intellectual development as say, a full grown pig. And people kill those all the time.
That's beyond abhorrent.
You'd be willing to kill a 1 year old child for your own convenience?
Given that they are the intellectual equivalent of adult pigs, why is that abhorrent?
Do people ITT even understand how current abortion laws work? You can't abort if the fetus is viable, it's delivered and stuck in an incubator. The only ways you can abort a fetus are a) if it isn't viable or b) if it will save the mother's life.
I decided to go the debate route instead, but seeing as it is (as he admits) impossible to argue with the position of "all abortion is murdering children", I will post it now.
Except that you don't see a difference between them either. You find it just as practical, moral, and acceptable to kill a baby as a fetus, you said so yourself.
What happens when biomedicine is advanced to the stage that a fetus is viable at almost any point from conception?
I'm actually interested in this question. If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, please share them.
Well, if we hit a certain point of biomedical advancement, every single sperm could be deemed viable and capable of eventually becoming a full grown adult. Would we make it illegal to not store every single sperm for later conception?
Posts
At what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a child? Quite often.
You wouldn't "sacrifice your entire life", don't be melodramatic.
However, if you're actually asking me if I think that your job, or education, is worth killing a child? Never. That you would kill a child for the sake of your own job security or to earn a PHD is appalling, at best. I hope you're simply being inflammatory, because that is a pretty abhorrent mindset.
Do you really think you're going to change my mind by saying something like that?
So in short, I should also be ok with killing toddlers?
Makes sense.
I have like an eight hour school day, starting soon, so I'm going to have to bow out for a bit. Which saddens me greatly. But it's not like my position doesn't have enough support that my points won't be made.
You aren't "killing a child", don't be melodramatic
That you would ask me to change my entire life because of an accident I tried my hardest to prevent is pretty abhorrent. Because, to someone like myself, my job and education ARE my life. In addition, I am making ends meet with my current position, and could not afford a child as it would catipault me into massive debt, this stymieing future plans. not to mention the fact that my fiancee would have to actually gestate and birth this child, and thus take an academic hit when she just got off of academic probation. To us, our future careers ARE what we want our life to be, not a child.
None of that is worth killing a child.
Listen, kid, you're being melodramatic. None of that would occur, your life wouldn't end, you wouldn't be unmade and have no future and nowhere to go. Trust me, you'd do just fine.
But even if that were the case, I still would not condone killing a child to help you get a better job or to not be in debt. Nothing you say is going to change that.
Your bank account, job security, profession, or education are not worth one human life. Your arguments aren't going to convince me otherwise, so why do you bother?
Y'know, you can criticize it all you want, but I still love Legally Blonde for using this exact argument.
Ooh, that struck a nerve with me. Did you not read where he said he believes it is the killing of a human life? You might as well be saying "at what point is sacrificing your entire life worth killing a one year old child? Quite often". You see an inherent difference between a fetus and a 1 year old. Pro lifers do not - they're both lives. I sure hope you didn't understand that....
PSN - sumowot
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
one of us is giving it up. Its not gonna be me. I shouldn't make her give it up.
Fuck the children.
Zed put me in your sig.
Y'know, my argument still stands even with that statement. A one year old has about the same range of emotion and intellectual development as say, a full grown pig. And people kill those all the time.
BUT ITS A CHILD DONT YOU SEE HUMANS ARE NOT ANIMALS BUT WE REALLY ARE ANIMALS BUT WE ARE BETTER THAN ANIMALS WHICH MEANS EVEN THE SLIGHTEST CHILD CASUALTY IS 100% WROOOOONGG LONG LIVE THE CHILD EMPEROR
Y'know what is funny? My initial first post in this thread was going to be this:
I decided to go the debate route instead, but seeing as it is (as he admits) impossible to argue with the position of "all abortion is murdering children", I will post it now.
I'm actually interested in this question. If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, please share them.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Sorry, I will bite!
It really depends on what you mean by "viable".
Do you mean able to survive to adulthood? Because I think we are close to that point now. I don't think it changes the game at all. When is the cells at a level where it can interact with its environment beyond being a passive consumer? For humans, this occurs well after the first trimester, which is when most abortions are performed. At that point, the "baby" is barely to the fetal stage, and can do nothing but grow and consume nutrients, much like any other somatic cell. In fact, it is even less useful than other somatic cells, because it cannot even perform its primary function (that is, ensuring the survival of its genetic material).
It occurred to me (before I read your post) that if we could (in early stages) remove the fetus without harming it or the mother and either keep it in stasis or put it in a third party (or artificial) womb, it'd be a nice technological sidestep. No "children" are dying, and effective abortions are plentiful.
Sure, we might have a freezer full of suspended animation kids waiting for barren couples to grow them up, but at least they're not aborted, right? Much better than being aborted.
People have answered this and it refuses to stick in other people's heads. Sure those embryonic cells are alive. But so are sloughed-off skin cells, or a yeast culture or a slime mold. Those kinds of life are being extinguished all the time. Everyone here is against the extinguishing of a sapient, conscious entity. But life means jack shit.
that's interesting too..
I dunno... abortion --> test-tube baby? "My daddy's a water dropper!"
Also, Arch, your reference to baby-bacon D:D:D:
PSN - sumowot
Nothing would change, because viability has nothing to do with my position? Difficult as it is to measure and nail down, I care about suffering and happiness. Something that hasn't achieved either is warranted about zero protections.
That's beyond abhorrent.
You'd be willing to kill a 1 year old child for your own convenience?
How is it better than being aborted?
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
They're still alive. Isn't that the whole point?
Except that you don't see a difference between them either. You find it just as practical, moral, and acceptable to kill a baby as a fetus, you said so yourself.
What's so great about being alive? Is it a tragedy when I eat a carrot?
Do you have anything but appeals to emotion? You have yet to display any logic. In fact, killing you might not even be murder.
I dunno, ask 17th.
Given that they are the intellectual equivalent of adult pigs, why is that abhorrent?
and the sarcasm goes whoooooooosh
Well, if we hit a certain point of biomedical advancement, every single sperm could be deemed viable and capable of eventually becoming a full grown adult. Would we make it illegal to not store every single sperm for later conception?
I figured if the argument was already at "people who support abortion also support killing children" I might as well go whole-hog.