I think for the next testing night, we should assign certain things for each person to keep an eye on and critique. So instead of getting 24 duplicate "lol chokepoints", one person would be commenting on textures, one on lighting, one on gameplay flow, one on props, etc. Similarly, have a person for each class checking out the maps viability/biases. How useful is engie on this map? Are snipers overpowered? Enough side tunnels for spies/pyros?
On a similar note, we had a server of 24 full for a couple hours but the only ones to post critiques and suggestions so far are the mapmakers themselves. You lazy bastards.
This is a great idea and would be best implemented on final tests, when there are actual textures, brushes, overlays, etc to monitor for consistency. Gamplay flow, however, could and be checked at every possible opportunity. There should be an 'at least one of each class' rule implemented in tests, so that map makers can ensure their maps don't over power a certain class.
well, first you need to draw up test plans that cover all the aforementioned cases, check for corner cases, then convene a meeting to go over the test plan so that we have full coverage.
heynow doncha think that this is getting a bit like... work?
Work isn't nearly this much fun. Besides, most of us here LIKE offering up critical opinions of other people hard work. Have a go at reading ANY of the TF2 threads here....we are critical people, and enjoy every second of it. We are also very supportive of each other as PAers, and don't mind helping when a map needs testing. Testing requires a certain specific to-do checklist; if it sounds like work to anyone, then they don't have to join in on the fun.
I think for the next testing night, we should assign certain things for each person to keep an eye on and critique. So instead of getting 24 duplicate "lol chokepoints", one person would be commenting on textures, one on lighting, one on gameplay flow, one on props, etc. Similarly, have a person for each class checking out the maps viability/biases. How useful is engie on this map? Are snipers overpowered? Enough side tunnels for spies/pyros?
On a similar note, we had a server of 24 full for a couple hours but the only ones to post critiques and suggestions so far are the mapmakers themselves. You lazy bastards.
This is a great idea and would be best implemented on final tests, when there are actual textures, brushes, overlays, etc to monitor for consistency. Gamplay flow, however, could and be checked at every possible opportunity. There should be an 'at least one of each class' rule implemented in tests, so that map makers can ensure their maps don't over power a certain class.
well, first you need to draw up test plans that cover all the aforementioned cases, check for corner cases, then convene a meeting to go over the test plan so that we have full coverage.
heynow doncha think that this is getting a bit like... work?
It's called testing, so that we can make these maps worth voting for so you can dick around on them later. If you can't be bothered to be helpful during a test, than you should probably stay out of the overflooded server so that someone willing to help can get in.
tf2maps has a pretty good testing community built up. I'd say if someone was looking to get people to nitpick texture alignment and crate rotation.. go to them. They live for that shit.
PAers are useful for "is the map fun" or "how badly will engineers exploit this shit up".
I think for the next testing night, we should assign certain things for each person to keep an eye on and critique. So instead of getting 24 duplicate "lol chokepoints", one person would be commenting on textures, one on lighting, one on gameplay flow, one on props, etc. Similarly, have a person for each class checking out the maps viability/biases. How useful is engie on this map? Are snipers overpowered? Enough side tunnels for spies/pyros?
On a similar note, we had a server of 24 full for a couple hours but the only ones to post critiques and suggestions so far are the mapmakers themselves. You lazy bastards.
This is a great idea and would be best implemented on final tests, when there are actual textures, brushes, overlays, etc to monitor for consistency. Gamplay flow, however, could and be checked at every possible opportunity. There should be an 'at least one of each class' rule implemented in tests, so that map makers can ensure their maps don't over power a certain class.
well, first you need to draw up test plans that cover all the aforementioned cases, check for corner cases, then convene a meeting to go over the test plan so that we have full coverage.
heynow doncha think that this is getting a bit like... work?
It's called testing, so that we can make these maps worth voting for so you can dick around on them later. If you can't be bothered to be helpful during a test, than you should probably stay out of the overflooded server so that someone willing to help can get in.
tf2maps has a pretty good testing community built up. I'd say if someone was looking to get people to nitpick texture alignment and crate rotation.. go to them. They live for that shit.
PAers are useful for "is the map fun" or "how badly will engineers exploit this shit up".
Awwww, you have to give PAers a little more credit than that. There are a good handful of really skilled and willing people who will give honest and constructive feedback on map tests.
Thanks a lot for the testing and feeckback. So what I thought of the maps I could play on
Xzzy
Well, very open and frantic action. The issue is with the game mode itself, there is reason Valve forced people to cross each other tracks to get to the objective, with the exception of the final, in this case, there is a slippery slope where the leading team get quickly away from the losing one, and the action becomes scarcer. When the teams gets to the forward spawn, things are a bit mixed up, the losing team must walk backward to get and "pull" the cart rather than pushing it.
This don't seems to be easily fixed with the current layout. If you wan't to keep things parallel then, you should consider a more curved path, that avoid the cart going to far geographically as it progress along the track. Some features are definitively interesting, though, such as the spawns battlement above the canyon, facing each other.
Not being defensive here, I just wanted to note that that was kind of the reason I set the map up like it was. I needed to see if the crossover was significant, how the game would play if teams had line of sight to enemy spawns, if rollback was important.. stuff like that.
It really seems like payload race needs a stalemate in order to play well. It needs a spot like the last point of bombditarod where teams spend 10 minutes shooting the hell out of each other before someone ninja pushes the cart. This is likely why valve put in the 'rollback zones' in plr.. it enforces the chokepoint issue. Teams have to clear out the enemy long enough to get the cart over the hump.
In that regard, last night's test was pretty illuminating. I sure understand plr a lot better than I did two days ago.. calling it "payload with two carts" is oversimplifying a whole lot.
I already know how I'm gonna deal with it, I just gotta sit down with hammer and rework things to fit.
Hmm. I need to get a more concrete idea of a design for my map before I get into hammer, I think.
What I've got in mind so far is: A/D 3 CP map, offense starts in a sort of cargo blimp and jumps out onto the roof of a tall structure of some sort. Offense pushes down the structure from there, defense comes from below. I am trying to think of a tall structure that could be the setting for this that wouldn't seem out of place in TF2's retro 50's spy/action movie setting.
Persia was pretty and that one map that was all orange at the start was cool too, it basically is my perfect sniper heaven.
Having a sniper refer to a map as a "perfect sniper heaven" is probably a good indication that the map favors snipers a bit too much. And that more testing should be done.
I've obviously got a lot of work to do on my map, but for future reference testing a map, please don't try to break the map first thing. I had a few people just trying to jump over the fence for the first 5 minutes of my test. Their team was getting rolled the entire time, and it really didn't help me figure out if the map worked.
I'm going to seal it off so it's impossible by the next update.
Persia was pretty and that one map that was all orange at the start was cool too, it basically is my perfect sniper heaven.
Having a sniper refer to a map as a "perfect sniper heaven" is probably a good indication that the map favors snipers a bit too much. And that more testing should be done.
I agree, there should be more cover for the snipers.
Here, Hey you, I've done a map test, you can find the record here. It's only two rounds, though, because it was a normal server rotation.
Well
I may repeat almost entirely what Lindsay said : action was almost too fast, after the first couple minutes of struggle at the base, one team would let its cart to skyrocket in an instant, and from then, the action would involve more walking than fighting. The loosing team has obviously to split, leading to a greater disadvantage. Then the second stage feels almost the same, and the added starting distance doesn't seem to count really, since it's immediately followed by a rool back zone.
There was an instance where the cart violently rolled back without being in such a zone. You may see it in the demo.
Since it kinda intersects the response from Xzzy, my two cents about the plr mode : like the ctf, it implies the hazardous balancing of having two objectives at once plus the additional burden of having these objectives moves. So far from what I've played
- pipeline setup kinda works but feels quite classical 5cp ish : team in front of team, you go into ennemy territory
- pipeline final/roolback zones à la panic : funny but utterly destroy any tactical advantage you had from previous moments be it on single or multi stage
- parallel fight without roll back as in Xzzy's and Hey You's : simply put : slippery slope, fights loose intensity as the team progress, works in the negative way most maps work.
- "pulling the cart" : avoid the slippery slope, but turn the game flow into raw chaos.
Well, so far my feeling is most plr setups are either "fair and boring" or "crazy and fun"... there is action, but it doesn't accuraly reflect one team's achievements. As for the multi stage issue, I'm not positive there is a fair way to handle this : they are currently mostly useless, but who'd want to start a stage with a sensible disadvantage ? (the same thing with ctf, when one team actually occupy the other base)
I hope you guys find clever dieas to handle all these issues
Reiterating the point made in-game that the sniper possibilities from below the spawn floor grate are ridiculously good. People running by, exposed and at range, on a flat surface + shadows and cover + no health for targets to pick up + them distracted by their carts + massive field of vision.
You could try closing off the sniper areas a bit and upping the lighting to start with. I'm not sure if the other option of something bisecting the map would do much for its flow.
Reiterating the point made in-game that the sniper possibilities from below the spawn floor grate are ridiculously good. People running by, exposed and at range, on a flat surface + shadows and cover + no health for targets to pick up + them distracted by their carts + massive field of vision.
You could try closing off the sniper areas a bit and upping the lighting to start with. I'm not sure if the other option of something bisecting the map would do much for its flow.
no comments on my video, flippy? or at least my signature!
Reiterating the point made in-game that the sniper possibilities from below the spawn floor grate are ridiculously good. People running by, exposed and at range, on a flat surface + shadows and cover + no health for targets to pick up + them distracted by their carts + massive field of vision.
You could try closing off the sniper areas a bit and upping the lighting to start with. I'm not sure if the other option of something bisecting the map would do much for its flow.
no comments on my video, flippy? or at least my signature!
I think your signature basically says it all. What more do you want from him?
Reiterating the point made in-game that the sniper possibilities from below the spawn floor grate are ridiculously good. People running by, exposed and at range, on a flat surface + shadows and cover + no health for targets to pick up + them distracted by their carts + massive field of vision.
You could try closing off the sniper areas a bit and upping the lighting to start with. I'm not sure if the other option of something bisecting the map would do much for its flow.
no comments on my video, flippy? or at least my signature!
I think your signature basically says it all. What more do you want from him?
Someone better make a remark about undeinpirat pushing his bombcart into nealcm's mother's hole full of toxic waste barrels to get this thread back on topic.
LittleBoots on
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
You guys ever had a day where you just completely sucked for some reason? Finishing maps bottom of the scoreboard, 3:25 kill/death, that sort of thing? For no discernible reason?
Oh yea, it's just, I mostly have bad games, I have the exact opposite most of the time, I do good once in a blue moon, and do low-grade decent the rest of the time.
Albiet, it's been a LOOOOOONG time since I had a 3:25 K/D.
P.S: That scoreboard I linked 3 days ago, is the first time I've ever broken 100 in a game, in the 9 months I've had this thing.
Kills and deaths are zero-sum. Every kill you have is a death for someone else, and vice-versa. I know I was having a pretty awesome round-- about 4 to 1-- and others on my team were also doing well. Sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are if everyone else is at the top of their game as well.
Kupi on
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
Reiterating the point made in-game that the sniper possibilities from below the spawn floor grate are ridiculously good. People running by, exposed and at range, on a flat surface + shadows and cover + no health for targets to pick up + them distracted by their carts + massive field of vision.
You could try closing off the sniper areas a bit and upping the lighting to start with. I'm not sure if the other option of something bisecting the map would do much for its flow.
no comments on my video, flippy? or at least my signature!
I think your signature basically says it all. What more do you want from him?
i want him to relive that moment
remember that one time where I killed you with that one weapon and you acted like you were actually getting mad about it and it was funny?
Reiterating the point made in-game that the sniper possibilities from below the spawn floor grate are ridiculously good. People running by, exposed and at range, on a flat surface + shadows and cover + no health for targets to pick up + them distracted by their carts + massive field of vision.
You could try closing off the sniper areas a bit and upping the lighting to start with. I'm not sure if the other option of something bisecting the map would do much for its flow.
no comments on my video, flippy? or at least my signature!
I think your signature basically says it all. What more do you want from him?
i want him to relive that moment
remember that one time where I killed you with that one weapon and you acted like you were actually getting mad about it and it was funny?
So after chewing it over in my head since last night, I think my plan is to change from doing a PLR map to a plan old PL map.
The problem is everything I think to do that would make the map play better would turn the map into more like pipeline, which I really wanted to avoid. The alternative would be to make it more like bombditarod or secret project, and I don't want to clone anyone's work.
But doing plain old payload seems like it could work. And I think based on the play I saw last night (as rough as it was), the ideas I had going were fun ones.
I did pretty awesome as soldier for a bit but then we lost. 9 assists in one life (buff banner woot) and I was something like 28-23-22 by the end of the game. normal RL/banner/equalizer is truly the best kit
Posts
God damnit I want the third place one.
Me as well. I would craft 3 refined metals for a small chance at getting one, but odds are I would just end up with a really shitty hat.
Work isn't nearly this much fun.
I'm saving my one refined metal so I can try for a 50/50 chance at a good scout hat* eventually.
*Read "good scout hat" as; Hatless or Baker Boy
tf2maps has a pretty good testing community built up. I'd say if someone was looking to get people to nitpick texture alignment and crate rotation.. go to them. They live for that shit.
PAers are useful for "is the map fun" or "how badly will engineers exploit this shit up".
Awwww, you have to give PAers a little more credit than that. There are a good handful of really skilled and willing people who will give honest and constructive feedback on map tests.
Not being defensive here, I just wanted to note that that was kind of the reason I set the map up like it was. I needed to see if the crossover was significant, how the game would play if teams had line of sight to enemy spawns, if rollback was important.. stuff like that.
It really seems like payload race needs a stalemate in order to play well. It needs a spot like the last point of bombditarod where teams spend 10 minutes shooting the hell out of each other before someone ninja pushes the cart. This is likely why valve put in the 'rollback zones' in plr.. it enforces the chokepoint issue. Teams have to clear out the enemy long enough to get the cart over the hump.
In that regard, last night's test was pretty illuminating. I sure understand plr a lot better than I did two days ago.. calling it "payload with two carts" is oversimplifying a whole lot.
I already know how I'm gonna deal with it, I just gotta sit down with hammer and rework things to fit.
What I've got in mind so far is: A/D 3 CP map, offense starts in a sort of cargo blimp and jumps out onto the roof of a tall structure of some sort. Offense pushes down the structure from there, defense comes from below. I am trying to think of a tall structure that could be the setting for this that wouldn't seem out of place in TF2's retro 50's spy/action movie setting.
Having a sniper refer to a map as a "perfect sniper heaven" is probably a good indication that the map favors snipers a bit too much. And that more testing should be done.
I'm going to seal it off so it's impossible by the next update.
I agree, there should be more cover for the snipers.
Well
There was an instance where the cart violently rolled back without being in such a zone. You may see it in the demo.
Since it kinda intersects the response from Xzzy, my two cents about the plr mode : like the ctf, it implies the hazardous balancing of having two objectives at once plus the additional burden of having these objectives moves. So far from what I've played
- pipeline setup kinda works but feels quite classical 5cp ish : team in front of team, you go into ennemy territory
- pipeline final/roolback zones à la panic : funny but utterly destroy any tactical advantage you had from previous moments be it on single or multi stage
- parallel fight without roll back as in Xzzy's and Hey You's : simply put : slippery slope, fights loose intensity as the team progress, works in the negative way most maps work.
- "pulling the cart" : avoid the slippery slope, but turn the game flow into raw chaos.
Well, so far my feeling is most plr setups are either "fair and boring" or "crazy and fun"... there is action, but it doesn't accuraly reflect one team's achievements. As for the multi stage issue, I'm not positive there is a fair way to handle this : they are currently mostly useless, but who'd want to start a stage with a sensible disadvantage ? (the same thing with ctf, when one team actually occupy the other base)
I hope you guys find clever dieas to handle all these issues
Reiterating the point made in-game that the sniper possibilities from below the spawn floor grate are ridiculously good. People running by, exposed and at range, on a flat surface + shadows and cover + no health for targets to pick up + them distracted by their carts + massive field of vision.
You could try closing off the sniper areas a bit and upping the lighting to start with. I'm not sure if the other option of something bisecting the map would do much for its flow.
no comments on my video, flippy? or at least my signature!
I think your signature basically says it all. What more do you want from him?
i want him to relive that moment
it was me
in bed
the fact that my mother would sink so low as to hug undeinpirat in bed
hes just so ugly
Not to mention a terrible hugger.
Someone better make a remark about undeinpirat pushing his bombcart into nealcm's mother's hole full of toxic waste barrels to get this thread back on topic.
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
Albiet, it's been a LOOOOOONG time since I had a 3:25 K/D.
P.S: That scoreboard I linked 3 days ago, is the first time I've ever broken 100 in a game, in the 9 months I've had this thing.
I wouldn't be surprised if I was #1 for suicides on the servers.
if dying while taunting for a freezecam counts as suicide
i would be #1 on that list
why would you do that
I welcome all attempts to exploit it or get around it.
3DS Friend Code: 2707-1614-5576
PAX Prime 2014 Buttoneering!
I once tried to get around your mother...
Tofu wrote: Here be Littleboots, destroyer of threads and master of drunkposting.
The problem is everything I think to do that would make the map play better would turn the map into more like pipeline, which I really wanted to avoid. The alternative would be to make it more like bombditarod or secret project, and I don't want to clone anyone's work.
But doing plain old payload seems like it could work. And I think based on the play I saw last night (as rough as it was), the ideas I had going were fun ones.
Its me in the corner changing my name.
kpop appreciation station i also like to tweet some
are you trying to keep up with someone
and you don't know if you can do it?
oh no, you've said too much