Well, I guess they won't be able to elect any Muslims in the future.
After all, you can never really trust them not to be working to undermine such laws.
Welcome to France. They keep most of the Muslims locked away in ghettos and then huff and puff angrily when the youth throw violent riots in protest of the futureless ghetto lives.
Want to understand Palestine? Look at the Parisian ghettos and multiply that by 10.
Yeah, I know all about France. I was making a more abstract point.
Please define a "real threat". I wasn't aware that this was a category we're working with. What kind of threats do each of those examples fall under?
Something that can reasonably be said to be a threat to the equality of a large number of women.
So the way to protect the civil and legal equality of women is by subjecting them, and not men, to laws that punish them for dressing a certain way?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that this ban would technically also apply to men.
It's like affirmative action. Looking only at principles, giving preference to minorities would seem like the opposite of racial equality. But when dealing with the actual realities of the situation, it is a necessary pragmatic solution to the problem of unequal opportunity.
And the reality of the situation is things like Barbi dolls, Bratz, air brushed magazine models, and public figures with unrealistic proportions advocating women should look like them are very detrimental to women. I'd say at least as detrimental as a head covering.
I'm still missing how legally restricting the rights of women to voluntarily choose what to wear is in any way even remotely pragmatic, or does anything to address inequality between the sexes.
Again, the theory would be that:
1) It creates leverage that women could use to get out from under their oppressive communities.
2) Attacking the expression of an idea attacks the idea itself. Similar to how holocaust denial is illegal in much of Europe.
Please define a "real threat". I wasn't aware that this was a category we're working with. What kind of threats do each of those examples fall under?
Something that can reasonably be said to be a threat to the equality of a large number of women.
So the way to protect the civil and legal equality of women is by subjecting them, and not men, to laws that punish them for dressing a certain way?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that this ban would technically also apply to men.
It's like affirmative action. Looking only at principles, giving preference to minorities would seem like the opposite of racial equality. But when dealing with the actual realities of the situation, it is a necessary pragmatic solution to the problem of unequal opportunity.
And the reality of the situation is things like Barbi dolls, Bratz, air brushed magazine models, and public figures with unrealistic proportions advocating women should look like them are very detrimental to women. I'd say at least as detrimental as a head covering.
a) I'm not sure these are all that big in France.
b) Issues of unrealistic expectations and so forth are obviously different from the issue of gender equality.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
b) Issues of unrealistic expectations and so forth are obviously different from the issue of gender equality.
Really? Really? You don't think constantly blaring at women they need to be something they can't possibly be, and more so advertising to men that's what they should look like, isn't a blockade to gender equality? This is an amazing world view you have.
And yes, France has those things. Hell, watch a French fashion show and try to find anyone with a realistic figure.
b) Issues of unrealistic expectations and so forth are obviously different from the issue of gender equality.
Really? Really? You don't think constantly blaring at women they need to be something they can't possibly be, and more so advertising to men that's what they should look like, isn't a blockade to gender equality? This is an amazing world view you have.
And yes, France has those things. Hell, watch a French fashion show and try to find anyone with a realistic figure.
b) Issues of unrealistic expectations and so forth are obviously different from the issue of gender equality.
Really? Really? You don't think constantly blaring at women they need to be something they can't possibly be, and more so advertising to men that's what they should look like, isn't a blockade to gender equality?
It could hardly even be called tangentially related.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
b) Issues of unrealistic expectations and so forth are obviously different from the issue of gender equality.
Really? Really? You don't think constantly blaring at women they need to be something they can't possibly be, and more so advertising to men that's what they should look like, isn't a blockade to gender equality?
It could hardly even be called tangentially related.
Welp, you're wrong.
But for what it's worth, there's a fucking ass-ton of pressure on European guys to be 'perfect' as well - IIRC the plastic surgery rate in Spain is just as abhorrently high for men as women.
Women aren't allowed in a culture to leave the house without a veil, so the solution is to ban the veil in public?
Their husbands/fathers are just not going to allow them to leave the house at all.
Turkey banned head coverings from college campuses and IDs a year or two back, but that was rooted in protecting women who did not cover their head from harassment. Even then, the dialogue about the law was a debate about whether this would simply reduce the number of women attending college.
This law in France, however, seems to be rooted not in protecting women's rights but rather to keep the scary foreigner practices out of eyeshot.
b) Issues of unrealistic expectations and so forth are obviously different from the issue of gender equality.
Really? Really? You don't think constantly blaring at women they need to be something they can't possibly be, and more so advertising to men that's what they should look like, isn't a blockade to gender equality?
It could hardly even be called tangentially related.
some of the cornerstones of the problem of gender equality are body image, sexual objectification, eating disorders, crippling anxiety/neurosis/self-esteem issues arising from all these, etc. the existence of barbie dolls and photoshopped supermodels and half-plastic pornstars is the result of, and a means of propagation for, gender inequality and the oppression of women.
to say that they are not related, in fact, that they are not the same thing, is just to show ignorance about the issues facing women in western society.
forcing women not to wear the niqab is not going to solve anything or remove any pressure from them. because guess what? these women want to wear the fucking niqab. this is not some liberating social justice, it is an incursion into their private lives and personal beliefs. this law would force women to dress in a way that they do not want to dress; it would force women to bare themselves to the world, to show flesh that they do not want to show. it would force them to violate principles that they hold dear.
i don't agree with the niqab or those principles, but forcing women to abandon it is not a solution to the problem of sexism in their religion. It will not contribute a single iota to the solution of the problem. You want to liberate women and give them more rights and more power and more personhood? That's great. But restricting their freedom to choose is not going to change that. That kind of change can only occur over generations of cultural influence, of hybridization, of collision between different value systems over time.
One the one hand, the lib in me instantly wants to jump to the defense of the minority here and scold the French for even considering infringing on these women's right to wear whatever they want as long as their naughty bits are covered up.
On the other hand, the formerly indoctrinated Muslim youth in me would like to see this extreme religious conservatism pushed back and taken under serious consideration. Not all Muslims are like the Taliban, but depending on the culture you're talking about, pairing Islamic values of modesty (especially for women) with local cultural conservatism where women are thought of as less valuable then men... well, it's not a great mix. This is all based on my own (anecdotal) experience as someone from the Middle-East, and so having seen firsthand how poorly feminism has penetrated the culture there. That, and I'd just like to see people cast aside religion altogether, but eh -- whaddayagonnado.
In the end, I still don't think France has any business decreeing what these women can and can't wear.
The Hijab I can understand but a Burka is just blatant female oppression.
France is a secular country (or atleast wants to be) so if you don't like it then go to Saudi Arabia where females can't drive, whether or not they could in the west.
EDIT: The fact that if covers their whole face, and most of these women won't take it off is ridiculous.
If I go into a shop with a ski mask on someone will call the police.
One the one hand, the lib in me instantly wants to jump to the defense of the minority here and scold the French for even considering infringing on these women's right to wear whatever they want as long as their naughty bits are covered up.
On the other hand, the formerly indoctrinated Muslim youth in me would like to see this extreme religious conservatism pushed back and taken under serious consideration. Not all Muslims are like the Taliban, but depending on the culture you're talking about, pairing Islamic values of modesty (especially for women) with local cultural conservatism where women are thought of as less valuable then men... well, it's not a great mix. This is all based on my own (anecdotal) experience as someone from the Middle-East, and so having seen firsthand how poorly feminism has penetrated the culture there. That, and I'd just like to see people cast aside religion altogether, but eh -- whaddayagonnado.
In the end, I still don't think France has any business decreeing what these women can and can't wear.
Do you want to know how you actually rescue people from an abusive environment? You set up support services, areas where they can get away from the environment, and the support required for them to integrate slowly into 'normal' society. Then you advertise the fuck out of these services in a tasteful, inoffensive manner. For example, advertising women's shelters for abused women.
But. People have to make the decision "I want to escape" by themselves. You cannot, cannot force someone to abandon their family or their culture. They must do it themselves. You can educate them about the alternatives, but you can't coerce them. Damaged people will retreat to what they know if they're pushed, and it's the height of cultural arrogance to assume you know better.
One the one hand, the lib in me instantly wants to jump to the defense of the minority here and scold the French for even considering infringing on these women's right to wear whatever they want as long as their naughty bits are covered up.
On the other hand, the formerly indoctrinated Muslim youth in me would like to see this extreme religious conservatism pushed back and taken under serious consideration. Not all Muslims are like the Taliban, but depending on the culture you're talking about, pairing Islamic values of modesty (especially for women) with local cultural conservatism where women are thought of as less valuable then men... well, it's not a great mix. This is all based on my own (anecdotal) experience as someone from the Middle-East, and so having seen firsthand how poorly feminism has penetrated the culture there. That, and I'd just like to see people cast aside religion altogether, but eh -- whaddayagonnado.
In the end, I still don't think France has any business decreeing what these women can and can't wear.
Do you want to know how you actually rescue people from an abusive environment? You set up support services, areas where they can get away from the environment, and the support required for them to integrate slowly into 'normal' society. Then you advertise the fuck out of these services in a tasteful, inoffensive manner. For example, advertising women's shelters for abused women.
But. People have to make the decision "I want to escape" by themselves. You cannot, cannot force someone to abandon their family or their culture. They must do it themselves. You can educate them about the alternatives, but you can't coerce them. Damaged people will retreat to what they know if they're pushed, and it's the height of cultural arrogance to assume you know better.
:^:
I'm not in favour of bans, but I do consider wearing full-face veils like the niqab and burqa to be not only the standard oppressive blah blah (just like heels and any other clothing that significantly restricts a person's ability to move freely or communicate) but also pretty much an act of at least passive-aggression against the people around you. Choosing to wear one in a culture where you don't have to is choosing to self-isolate, and implicitly passes negative judgement on the choices of the women around you. I don't like it, even though I sympathize with women who've become so used to being covered that they feel uncomfortable without.
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RaakamToo many years...CanadalandRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
It's interesting to read the point of view of so many people regarding this issue.
It's kinda hard to formulate my thoughts on the matter. I grew up in France, I am middle-eastern, but non religious. I'm also a male. A lot of my friends were muslims, but not much more than following Ramadan and their mothers would wear a head-scarf.
It would literally take a thesis-length post to explain the situation in France, and for outsiders, they see this "ban on niquab" and yell omg racist/sexism/oppression. It's a really, really complicated issue, even within the country. It's divided the country and there are a lot of arguments going both ways.
The thing is, during the 80s and 90s, the government was trying to limit the amount of immigrants coming into the country. The "sans papiers" problem developed (lit: without papers). Illegal immigrants, some north african (algeria, morocco, egypt) and some from the iberian peninsula (mostly portuguese).
The left yelled "they will socially adjust and be assimilated into our society and all will be well." The right said "let's get rid of illegal immigrants now before it becomes a problem. *La France aux Francais (France to the French)*" was their mantra, essentially.
So, they fought a political war, with the left party pushing for helping assimilation, and the right wing pushing for deportation of the sans-papiers. Whenever they tried deporting some back to their countries, it became a huge mess.
Imagine if the US/Canada was a lot more aggressive about moving illegal immigrants out. Bus/plane full of people being shipped back to wherever they were from. Who do you think would cheer and whom do you think would protest? It's the same in France. Except... we had this argument 20 years ago and it's still on-going.
Fast forward to the present:
You have a large minority that has never socially entered French society. The reasons for that are numerous. Some are due to the immigrants and some due to the government and society as a whole. So, you end up with a disenfranchized group of folks (see: african americans in US). The stereotype becomes truth to a lot of average, middle-class people, black, white, asian, whatever. This is generally not based on race, but financial class.
First generation immigrants are fucked. They don't speak French very well, and when/if they get work, it's crap work. These people work their asses off, and work at the bottom of the chain (see illegal immigrants in US). Eventually, legal or illegal, they have children in the country who are sent to school, etc. Now, because the parents aren't exactly living the high life, these kids generally will grow up in "la cite", which should translate as "the city", but it really is the ghetto. It sounds like an exaggeration, but people who grew up in France or are there now know how it is.
They're basically segregated from society. They don't assimilate any faster or better. You've imported your culture with you, and since there is very little that challenges it, you entrench yourself into it deeper. This explains the phenomena of really moderate muslims become way, way more fundamental in their beliefs after they move *to* France. This is why you see young generations of Muslims who call themselves fans of terrorists (no, this is not a joke). As I recall, Thomas Friedman had a documentary where he went to France and found some of those people and interviewed them. Somehow, it shocked the outside world.
In response, the French see that things are obviously getting worse. Fear mongering was and still is big. The Front National of mr Jean-Marie Le Pen (I fucking hate this guy) is basically a Neo-Nazi group that has political legitimacy in France. Anyhow, make people afraid, push the stereotype "things would be better if it weren't for them dirty furrners" type speech; and people are apt to believe it.
Not because they're dumb, but because they point to the leftist strategy of "they'll assimilate" and say it blatantly failed. They point at the riots of minorities who are so sick and tired of being told no, again and again, and say "look, they're savages". There's also the hijacking of the Air France jet in 94, the bombs in 95 in Paris - people don't forget. We all got painted with the same brush. When the French government tries to pass laws that affect everyone, some Muslim religious leaders will make a big fuss. They have immense political clout, and that scares the hell out of the politicians/well-to-do Frenchmen.
Anyhow, I'm kinda being long-winded here. The essence is that Europe, and France, never went through the Civil Rights Movement like the US did. They don't like the immigrant culture, they don't like that they never assimilated, they don't like to admit the fact that they have their massive share of blame in this, and unfortunately, their stance is that the culprit is their religion and their beliefs. So, failing to understand their own minority, the current government are doing what they feel is the "most sensible" thing. To them, it's a win-win. It either forces the immigrant to alter his/her habits, or makes them leave.
tl;dr: It's a clusterfuck with no easy solution, in the end, something or someone has to change. I doubt the French government will budge. Expect a ton of civil unrest in France. Cheers.
Raakam on
My padherder they don't it be like it is but it do
the face veil and everything in that vein are nothing but tools of oppression against women.
the fact that they're religiously encouraged to be oppressed and want to wear it doesn't really help. Religious indoctrination that leads to oppression STILL is oppression
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
edited February 2010
How do we feel about Mormon women who want to enter into plural marriages?
so, if the veil is a symbol of oppression, how does forcing them to remove it make them less oppressed?
wouldn't forcing them to violate their own religious beliefs actually just be another form of oppression?
if there are any genuine problems of sexism, misogyny, and the oppression of women in Islam and in Islamic nations - and there are - then how is this at all helpful, rather than a superficial gesture that is actually racist and intolerant?
It makes more sense if you think less about the veil, and more about North Africans doing something The French really don't like.
Haven't the french pretty much banned any religious symbol from public life?
b) Issues of unrealistic expectations and so forth are obviously different from the issue of gender equality.
Really? Really? You don't think constantly blaring at women they need to be something they can't possibly be, and more so advertising to men that's what they should look like, isn't a blockade to gender equality?
It could hardly even be called tangentially related.
So you can't see how insisting women, rather than focus on developing worthwhile skills, abilities, and strong personalities, but instead focus entirely on how to improve their outward appearance and telling men that's what they should be focused on is related to gender equality.
If that's the case then you really have no authority so make an argument here. You're a blind person trying to argue about the colors in a painting.
The left yelled "they will socially adjust and be assimilated into our society and all will be well." The right said "let's get rid of illegal immigrants now before it becomes a problem. *La France aux Francais (France to the French)*" was their mantra, essentially.
*snip*
Are you serious? I am going to look this up. This isn't even an Godwin. That is exactly the line used by the Nazis. Sometimes I hate Europe. I hate my countries actions a lot, but Jesus Christ.
Thank you for that post, though. Would you care to explain any differences you've experienced from living in France and whereever you may be now? At least, as far as discrimination you have experienced.
One the one hand, the lib in me instantly wants to jump to the defense of the minority here and scold the French for even considering infringing on these women's right to wear whatever they want as long as their naughty bits are covered up.
On the other hand, the formerly indoctrinated Muslim youth in me would like to see this extreme religious conservatism pushed back and taken under serious consideration. Not all Muslims are like the Taliban, but depending on the culture you're talking about, pairing Islamic values of modesty (especially for women) with local cultural conservatism where women are thought of as less valuable then men... well, it's not a great mix. This is all based on my own (anecdotal) experience as someone from the Middle-East, and so having seen firsthand how poorly feminism has penetrated the culture there. That, and I'd just like to see people cast aside religion altogether, but eh -- whaddayagonnado.
In the end, I still don't think France has any business decreeing what these women can and can't wear.
Do you want to know how you actually rescue people from an abusive environment? You set up support services, areas where they can get away from the environment, and the support required for them to integrate slowly into 'normal' society. Then you advertise the fuck out of these services in a tasteful, inoffensive manner. For example, advertising women's shelters for abused women.
But. People have to make the decision "I want to escape" by themselves. You cannot, cannot force someone to abandon their family or their culture. They must do it themselves. You can educate them about the alternatives, but you can't coerce them. Damaged people will retreat to what they know if they're pushed, and it's the height of cultural arrogance to assume you know better.
You make it sound like these women just need someone to help them escape an archetypcal abusive husband. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of Muslim women who wear veils don't view it as oppression, even though it really is. Just like my mother doesn't view it as sexist to let her sons do whatever they want, while her daughter has to stay chaste and wait patiently to be married off to a man of their choosing... even though obviously it is.
These are centuries-old, culturally-ingrained ideas, and, as someone mentioned a few posts back, it's gonna take generations of modernization and liberalization to reverse them.
Indeed. And you want to know how you reach those people? It isn't though heavy-handed attacks on their culture, it's though education and integration. Shit that the French seem to have zero interest in.
so, if the veil is a symbol of oppression, how does forcing them to remove it make them less oppressed?
wouldn't forcing them to violate their own religious beliefs actually just be another form of oppression?
if there are any genuine problems of sexism, misogyny, and the oppression of women in Islam and in Islamic nations - and there are - then how is this at all helpful, rather than a superficial gesture that is actually racist and intolerant?
It makes more sense if you think less about the veil, and more about North Africans doing something The French really don't like.
Haven't the French pretty much banned any religious symbol from public life?
No, only from public education.
zeeny on
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RaakamToo many years...CanadalandRegistered Userregular
The left yelled "they will socially adjust and be assimilated into our society and all will be well." The right said "let's get rid of illegal immigrants now before it becomes a problem. *La France aux Francais (France to the French)*" was their mantra, essentially.
*snip*
Are you serious? I am going to look this up. This isn't even an Godwin. That is exactly the line used by the Nazis. Sometimes I hate Europe. I hate my countries actions a lot, but Jesus Christ.
Thank you for that post, though. Would you care to explain any differences you've experienced from living in France and whereever you may be now? At least, as far as discrimination you have experienced.
Yes, I am serious. While the mainstream right-wing political party never said it, the FN had the loudest microphone. You know how the political system works, we see it in the US constantly these days. The most extreme groups get the most coverage because they're basically batshit insane and it makes for an interesting story.
I moved from France after I graduated high school, and went to the US. This was in '99. Everything was fine. People usually mistook me for a Mexican or an Indian guy. I'd always correct them, because it annoyed me. They'd just stare at me with a blank look, but it wasn't bad at all. This was in Kentucky, while I was going to the Univeristy of Kentucky (go Wildcats!) in Lexington. 2001 comes around, and obviously things changed pretty drastically. If people asked me where I was from, I'd definitely answer India/Mexico! I remember staying indoors for a week, because some Pakistani guys had gotten beaten up for no reason. Since then, it's been a bit more touch and go, but again, it depends where you live.
In more rural areas, sure, you get stares and some crap, but generally, in more urban places, it's not a worry. I got married and am in Ottawa with my wife, and there has been zero problems up here. Instead, those who are prone to those racist feelings tend to have them towards the First Nations peoples here (Natives).
edit: don't want to derail the thread.
Raakam on
My padherder they don't it be like it is but it do
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited February 2010
On the one hand, face concealment could aid in people getting away with shit (that is, hiding identity).
On the other, knee-jerk reaction law because of recent extremism.
A lot of women who veil regard the veil as a privacy issue; that they do not wish to be ogled by men or judged based on their appearance. You might be surprised how appealing this notion is to a lot of women - heck, when the "burqini" bathing suit came out, people were mocking it, but non-Muslim women actually buy it too, especially those who are overweight or older or just self-conscious, because it enables them to go out and swim without feeling like everyone's staring at them thinking, "ew, fattie" or whatever.
There are a lot of issues behind the veil, and while some - even maybe most - of them are about male control over female sexuality, there is quite a bit that Muslim women feel is empowering, i.e. female control over who gets visual access to their faces and bodies.
Edit: full disclosure - I am not now a Muslim, but I once was a convert. I did not choose to hijab/veil, but I will vehemently defend the rights of women to do so.
It is really not so simple as to dismiss the face covering as oppressive, and pat women who say it isn't on the head like they don't know what they're talking about. You might try, you know, actually talking to them. Also, burqa != niqab. Also also, Veiled 4 Allah.
Congratulations! You have literally no idea what you are talking about or are aware of the geopolitical situation in France!
Remember when the riots in France happened a coupla years ago? Cars burning etc? That was mostly minorities, mostly Muslim, mostly young, because of their treatment by the French government (and also the fact they couldn't get jobs because of the endemic racism/religious oppression in addition to France having a terrible socialistic captialist economic system set up so it's impossible to fire anyone from their jobs, creating little turnover and thus little extra jobs)
Oh, also, those riots happen all the fucking time, usually when some nonsense like this gets proposed (because a bunch of jobless screwed over minorities have literally nothing better to do than destroy shit)
they couldn't get job beacose most of them don't even speak french or have any basic intergration into french society
which is you know, kinda bad in any job
to blame the riot on the French is just being a silly goose
Couldn't they have just said "we don't want people wearing masks in public because it would make them impossible to identify in the event of a crime" and not come off as silly geese?
Man, French people do not have tact.
France is the country where the state is of the strong belief that it knows best and needs to provide a guiding hand to the citizens, and anything that prevents the state from telling people what is good for them needs to be removed.
France is trying to extend this attitude to the rest of Europe via the EU. It's disgusting to see the interpellations coming from the French MEPs.
so, if the veil is a symbol of oppression, how does forcing them to remove it make them less oppressed?
wouldn't forcing them to violate their own religious beliefs actually just be another form of oppression?
if there are any genuine problems of sexism, misogyny, and the oppression of women in Islam and in Islamic nations - and there are - then how is this at all helpful, rather than a superficial gesture that is actually racist and intolerant?
It makes more sense if you think less about the veil, and more about North Africans doing something The French really don't like.
Haven't the French pretty much banned any religious symbol from public life?
No, only from public education.
And only very recently, as if in relation to the surge in Muslim immigrants, for some strange reason.
The left yelled "they will socially adjust and be assimilated into our society and all will be well." The right said "let's get rid of illegal immigrants now before it becomes a problem. *La France aux Francais (France to the French)*" was their mantra, essentially.
*snip*
Are you serious? I am going to look this up. This isn't even an Godwin. That is exactly the line used by the Nazis. Sometimes I hate Europe. I hate my countries actions a lot, but Jesus Christ.
Thank you for that post, though. Would you care to explain any differences you've experienced from living in France and whereever you may be now? At least, as far as discrimination you have experienced.
France is not Europe, don't fucking dare try and tar all of us with the same brush.
b) Issues of unrealistic expectations and so forth are obviously different from the issue of gender equality.
Really? Really? You don't think constantly blaring at women they need to be something they can't possibly be, and more so advertising to men that's what they should look like, isn't a blockade to gender equality?
It could hardly even be called tangentially related.
So you can't see how insisting women, rather than focus on developing worthwhile skills, abilities, and strong personalities, but instead focus entirely on how to improve their outward appearance and telling men that's what they should be focused on is related to gender equality.
If that's the case then you really have no authority so make an argument here. You're a blind person trying to argue about the colors in a painting.
The latter is not somehow exclusive to the former. Frankly, I don't believe you can find any main stream examples that say anything close to this.
Lots of people are incredibly fucking superficial. This applies to both men and women, and in relation to both men and women. This is not a gender issue, it's an issue with human nature. There are just as many criteria about how men are supposed to look.
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
So you believe that the pressure put on men to look physically attractive is equal to that of women. Another... interesting view.
There's also the fact of what makes a man attractive versus what makes a woman attractive, and how that is built around society's concepts of the roles that the two sexes play.
I'm not in favour of bans, but I do consider wearing full-face veils like the niqab and burqa to be not only the standard oppressive blah blah (just like heels and any other clothing that significantly restricts a person's ability to move freely or communicate) but also pretty much an act of at least passive-aggression against the people around you. Choosing to wear one in a culture where you don't have to is choosing to self-isolate, and implicitly passes negative judgement on the choices of the women around you. I don't like it, even though I sympathize with women who've become so used to being covered that they feel uncomfortable without.
I don't really get that. I guess it has an added thrust culturally, but how is a woman wearing a veil any more a judgement of women around her than someone wearing a one-piece bathing suit or a looser shirt or a dress with a high neck or covering her head or whatever?
I mean, I don't have to wear anything but a speedo and a wifebeater but I don't for reasons not entirely connected to thinking other people are whores. Simply having no legal repercussion for wearing less clothing doesn't lead right into stripping down. See: the fat kid on the beach with a shirt on.
I mean obviously there's a difference in terms of cultural elements, but I don't see why it has to be anything but a personal decision about modesty.
One the one hand, the lib in me instantly wants to jump to the defense of the minority here and scold the French for even considering infringing on these women's right to wear whatever they want as long as their naughty bits are covered up.
On the other hand, the formerly indoctrinated Muslim youth in me would like to see this extreme religious conservatism pushed back and taken under serious consideration. Not all Muslims are like the Taliban, but depending on the culture you're talking about, pairing Islamic values of modesty (especially for women) with local cultural conservatism where women are thought of as less valuable then men... well, it's not a great mix. This is all based on my own (anecdotal) experience as someone from the Middle-East, and so having seen firsthand how poorly feminism has penetrated the culture there. That, and I'd just like to see people cast aside religion altogether, but eh -- whaddayagonnado.
In the end, I still don't think France has any business decreeing what these women can and can't wear.
Do you want to know how you actually rescue people from an abusive environment? You set up support services, areas where they can get away from the environment, and the support required for them to integrate slowly into 'normal' society. Then you advertise the fuck out of these services in a tasteful, inoffensive manner. For example, advertising women's shelters for abused women.
But. People have to make the decision "I want to escape" by themselves. You cannot, cannot force someone to abandon their family or their culture. They must do it themselves. You can educate them about the alternatives, but you can't coerce them. Damaged people will retreat to what they know if they're pushed, and it's the height of cultural arrogance to assume you know better.
:^:
I'm not in favour of bans, but I do consider wearing full-face veils like the niqab and burqa to be not only the standard oppressive blah blah (just like heels and any other clothing that significantly restricts a person's ability to move freely or communicate) but also pretty much an act of at least passive-aggression against the people around you. Choosing to wear one in a culture where you don't have to is choosing to self-isolate, and implicitly passes negative judgement on the choices of the women around you. I don't like it, even though I sympathize with women who've become so used to being covered that they feel uncomfortable without.
Can we ban heels? They're a blatant example of the Christian faith hobling women as a part of their religious sensibilities, just like the skirt, which should also banned.
Posts
Yeah, I know all about France. I was making a more abstract point.
And the reality of the situation is things like Barbi dolls, Bratz, air brushed magazine models, and public figures with unrealistic proportions advocating women should look like them are very detrimental to women. I'd say at least as detrimental as a head covering.
Again, the theory would be that:
1) It creates leverage that women could use to get out from under their oppressive communities.
2) Attacking the expression of an idea attacks the idea itself. Similar to how holocaust denial is illegal in much of Europe.
a) I'm not sure these are all that big in France.
b) Issues of unrealistic expectations and so forth are obviously different from the issue of gender equality.
Really? Really? You don't think constantly blaring at women they need to be something they can't possibly be, and more so advertising to men that's what they should look like, isn't a blockade to gender equality? This is an amazing world view you have.
And yes, France has those things. Hell, watch a French fashion show and try to find anyone with a realistic figure.
Well, they are more thin in Europe.
It could hardly even be called tangentially related.
Welp, you're wrong.
But for what it's worth, there's a fucking ass-ton of pressure on European guys to be 'perfect' as well - IIRC the plastic surgery rate in Spain is just as abhorrently high for men as women.
Their husbands/fathers are just not going to allow them to leave the house at all.
Turkey banned head coverings from college campuses and IDs a year or two back, but that was rooted in protecting women who did not cover their head from harassment. Even then, the dialogue about the law was a debate about whether this would simply reduce the number of women attending college.
This law in France, however, seems to be rooted not in protecting women's rights but rather to keep the scary foreigner practices out of eyeshot.
some of the cornerstones of the problem of gender equality are body image, sexual objectification, eating disorders, crippling anxiety/neurosis/self-esteem issues arising from all these, etc. the existence of barbie dolls and photoshopped supermodels and half-plastic pornstars is the result of, and a means of propagation for, gender inequality and the oppression of women.
to say that they are not related, in fact, that they are not the same thing, is just to show ignorance about the issues facing women in western society.
forcing women not to wear the niqab is not going to solve anything or remove any pressure from them. because guess what? these women want to wear the fucking niqab. this is not some liberating social justice, it is an incursion into their private lives and personal beliefs. this law would force women to dress in a way that they do not want to dress; it would force women to bare themselves to the world, to show flesh that they do not want to show. it would force them to violate principles that they hold dear.
i don't agree with the niqab or those principles, but forcing women to abandon it is not a solution to the problem of sexism in their religion. It will not contribute a single iota to the solution of the problem. You want to liberate women and give them more rights and more power and more personhood? That's great. But restricting their freedom to choose is not going to change that. That kind of change can only occur over generations of cultural influence, of hybridization, of collision between different value systems over time.
One the one hand, the lib in me instantly wants to jump to the defense of the minority here and scold the French for even considering infringing on these women's right to wear whatever they want as long as their naughty bits are covered up.
On the other hand, the formerly indoctrinated Muslim youth in me would like to see this extreme religious conservatism pushed back and taken under serious consideration. Not all Muslims are like the Taliban, but depending on the culture you're talking about, pairing Islamic values of modesty (especially for women) with local cultural conservatism where women are thought of as less valuable then men... well, it's not a great mix. This is all based on my own (anecdotal) experience as someone from the Middle-East, and so having seen firsthand how poorly feminism has penetrated the culture there. That, and I'd just like to see people cast aside religion altogether, but eh -- whaddayagonnado.
In the end, I still don't think France has any business decreeing what these women can and can't wear.
The Hijab I can understand but a Burka is just blatant female oppression.
France is a secular country (or atleast wants to be) so if you don't like it then go to Saudi Arabia where females can't drive, whether or not they could in the west.
EDIT: The fact that if covers their whole face, and most of these women won't take it off is ridiculous.
If I go into a shop with a ski mask on someone will call the police.
Do you want to know how you actually rescue people from an abusive environment? You set up support services, areas where they can get away from the environment, and the support required for them to integrate slowly into 'normal' society. Then you advertise the fuck out of these services in a tasteful, inoffensive manner. For example, advertising women's shelters for abused women.
But. People have to make the decision "I want to escape" by themselves. You cannot, cannot force someone to abandon their family or their culture. They must do it themselves. You can educate them about the alternatives, but you can't coerce them. Damaged people will retreat to what they know if they're pushed, and it's the height of cultural arrogance to assume you know better.
:^:
I'm not in favour of bans, but I do consider wearing full-face veils like the niqab and burqa to be not only the standard oppressive blah blah (just like heels and any other clothing that significantly restricts a person's ability to move freely or communicate) but also pretty much an act of at least passive-aggression against the people around you. Choosing to wear one in a culture where you don't have to is choosing to self-isolate, and implicitly passes negative judgement on the choices of the women around you. I don't like it, even though I sympathize with women who've become so used to being covered that they feel uncomfortable without.
It's kinda hard to formulate my thoughts on the matter. I grew up in France, I am middle-eastern, but non religious. I'm also a male. A lot of my friends were muslims, but not much more than following Ramadan and their mothers would wear a head-scarf.
It would literally take a thesis-length post to explain the situation in France, and for outsiders, they see this "ban on niquab" and yell omg racist/sexism/oppression. It's a really, really complicated issue, even within the country. It's divided the country and there are a lot of arguments going both ways.
The thing is, during the 80s and 90s, the government was trying to limit the amount of immigrants coming into the country. The "sans papiers" problem developed (lit: without papers). Illegal immigrants, some north african (algeria, morocco, egypt) and some from the iberian peninsula (mostly portuguese).
The left yelled "they will socially adjust and be assimilated into our society and all will be well." The right said "let's get rid of illegal immigrants now before it becomes a problem. *La France aux Francais (France to the French)*" was their mantra, essentially.
So, they fought a political war, with the left party pushing for helping assimilation, and the right wing pushing for deportation of the sans-papiers. Whenever they tried deporting some back to their countries, it became a huge mess.
Imagine if the US/Canada was a lot more aggressive about moving illegal immigrants out. Bus/plane full of people being shipped back to wherever they were from. Who do you think would cheer and whom do you think would protest? It's the same in France. Except... we had this argument 20 years ago and it's still on-going.
Fast forward to the present:
You have a large minority that has never socially entered French society. The reasons for that are numerous. Some are due to the immigrants and some due to the government and society as a whole. So, you end up with a disenfranchized group of folks (see: african americans in US). The stereotype becomes truth to a lot of average, middle-class people, black, white, asian, whatever. This is generally not based on race, but financial class.
First generation immigrants are fucked. They don't speak French very well, and when/if they get work, it's crap work. These people work their asses off, and work at the bottom of the chain (see illegal immigrants in US). Eventually, legal or illegal, they have children in the country who are sent to school, etc. Now, because the parents aren't exactly living the high life, these kids generally will grow up in "la cite", which should translate as "the city", but it really is the ghetto. It sounds like an exaggeration, but people who grew up in France or are there now know how it is.
They're basically segregated from society. They don't assimilate any faster or better. You've imported your culture with you, and since there is very little that challenges it, you entrench yourself into it deeper. This explains the phenomena of really moderate muslims become way, way more fundamental in their beliefs after they move *to* France. This is why you see young generations of Muslims who call themselves fans of terrorists (no, this is not a joke). As I recall, Thomas Friedman had a documentary where he went to France and found some of those people and interviewed them. Somehow, it shocked the outside world.
In response, the French see that things are obviously getting worse. Fear mongering was and still is big. The Front National of mr Jean-Marie Le Pen (I fucking hate this guy) is basically a Neo-Nazi group that has political legitimacy in France. Anyhow, make people afraid, push the stereotype "things would be better if it weren't for them dirty furrners" type speech; and people are apt to believe it.
Not because they're dumb, but because they point to the leftist strategy of "they'll assimilate" and say it blatantly failed. They point at the riots of minorities who are so sick and tired of being told no, again and again, and say "look, they're savages". There's also the hijacking of the Air France jet in 94, the bombs in 95 in Paris - people don't forget. We all got painted with the same brush. When the French government tries to pass laws that affect everyone, some Muslim religious leaders will make a big fuss. They have immense political clout, and that scares the hell out of the politicians/well-to-do Frenchmen.
Anyhow, I'm kinda being long-winded here. The essence is that Europe, and France, never went through the Civil Rights Movement like the US did. They don't like the immigrant culture, they don't like that they never assimilated, they don't like to admit the fact that they have their massive share of blame in this, and unfortunately, their stance is that the culprit is their religion and their beliefs. So, failing to understand their own minority, the current government are doing what they feel is the "most sensible" thing. To them, it's a win-win. It either forces the immigrant to alter his/her habits, or makes them leave.
tl;dr: It's a clusterfuck with no easy solution, in the end, something or someone has to change. I doubt the French government will budge. Expect a ton of civil unrest in France. Cheers.
they don't it be like it is but it do
the fact that they're religiously encouraged to be oppressed and want to wear it doesn't really help. Religious indoctrination that leads to oppression STILL is oppression
Haven't the french pretty much banned any religious symbol from public life?
So you can't see how insisting women, rather than focus on developing worthwhile skills, abilities, and strong personalities, but instead focus entirely on how to improve their outward appearance and telling men that's what they should be focused on is related to gender equality.
If that's the case then you really have no authority so make an argument here. You're a blind person trying to argue about the colors in a painting.
Are you serious? I am going to look this up. This isn't even an Godwin. That is exactly the line used by the Nazis. Sometimes I hate Europe. I hate my countries actions a lot, but Jesus Christ.
Thank you for that post, though. Would you care to explain any differences you've experienced from living in France and whereever you may be now? At least, as far as discrimination you have experienced.
You make it sound like these women just need someone to help them escape an archetypcal abusive husband. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of Muslim women who wear veils don't view it as oppression, even though it really is. Just like my mother doesn't view it as sexist to let her sons do whatever they want, while her daughter has to stay chaste and wait patiently to be married off to a man of their choosing... even though obviously it is.
These are centuries-old, culturally-ingrained ideas, and, as someone mentioned a few posts back, it's gonna take generations of modernization and liberalization to reverse them.
Also, France is nowhere near as xenophobe as some are imagining it is, the head of state excluded.
Edit:
No, only from public education.
Yes, I am serious. While the mainstream right-wing political party never said it, the FN had the loudest microphone. You know how the political system works, we see it in the US constantly these days. The most extreme groups get the most coverage because they're basically batshit insane and it makes for an interesting story.
I moved from France after I graduated high school, and went to the US. This was in '99. Everything was fine. People usually mistook me for a Mexican or an Indian guy. I'd always correct them, because it annoyed me. They'd just stare at me with a blank look, but it wasn't bad at all. This was in Kentucky, while I was going to the Univeristy of Kentucky (go Wildcats!) in Lexington. 2001 comes around, and obviously things changed pretty drastically. If people asked me where I was from, I'd definitely answer India/Mexico! I remember staying indoors for a week, because some Pakistani guys had gotten beaten up for no reason. Since then, it's been a bit more touch and go, but again, it depends where you live.
In more rural areas, sure, you get stares and some crap, but generally, in more urban places, it's not a worry. I got married and am in Ottawa with my wife, and there has been zero problems up here. Instead, those who are prone to those racist feelings tend to have them towards the First Nations peoples here (Natives).
edit: don't want to derail the thread.
they don't it be like it is but it do
On the other, knee-jerk reaction law because of recent extremism.
It is really not so simple as to dismiss the face covering as oppressive, and pat women who say it isn't on the head like they don't know what they're talking about. You might try, you know, actually talking to them. Also, burqa != niqab. Also also, Veiled 4 Allah.
they couldn't get job beacose most of them don't even speak french or have any basic intergration into french society
which is you know, kinda bad in any job
to blame the riot on the French is just being a silly goose
wait you are not even FROM France?
/facepalm
Adults are free to do what they want. The 10-15 year olds most common as polygamy fodder, not so much.
France is the country where the state is of the strong belief that it knows best and needs to provide a guiding hand to the citizens, and anything that prevents the state from telling people what is good for them needs to be removed.
France is trying to extend this attitude to the rest of Europe via the EU. It's disgusting to see the interpellations coming from the French MEPs.
And only very recently, as if in relation to the surge in Muslim immigrants, for some strange reason.
France is not Europe, don't fucking dare try and tar all of us with the same brush.
Same fallacy as "Africa is poor and famined", which also gets under my skin.
The latter is not somehow exclusive to the former. Frankly, I don't believe you can find any main stream examples that say anything close to this.
Lots of people are incredibly fucking superficial. This applies to both men and women, and in relation to both men and women. This is not a gender issue, it's an issue with human nature. There are just as many criteria about how men are supposed to look.
There's also the fact of what makes a man attractive versus what makes a woman attractive, and how that is built around society's concepts of the roles that the two sexes play.
I mean, I don't have to wear anything but a speedo and a wifebeater but I don't for reasons not entirely connected to thinking other people are whores. Simply having no legal repercussion for wearing less clothing doesn't lead right into stripping down. See: the fat kid on the beach with a shirt on.
I mean obviously there's a difference in terms of cultural elements, but I don't see why it has to be anything but a personal decision about modesty.
Can we ban heels? They're a blatant example of the Christian faith hobling women as a part of their religious sensibilities, just like the skirt, which should also banned.
Is there some unit of social pressure you are using to measure this? Is it a metric system unit?