The Hijab I can understand but a Burka is just blatant female oppression.
Also, France is nowhere near as xenophobe as some are imagining it is, the head of state excluded.
They're not xenophobic, they're assimilationist. It's just that the actions of assimilation come across as xenophobic since you're constantly trying to (forcibly) incorporate your minorities into the ideal of the "French people".
It had eased in the past few decades with efforts towards conciliation, but I think it's flaring back up with the even more recent influx of new minorities.
Can we ban heels? They're a blatant example of the Christian faith hobling women as a part of their religious sensibilities, just like the skirt, which should also banned.
I propose we also ban Mennonite women from wearing their clothing.
So you believe that the pressure put on men to look physically attractive is equal to that of women. Another... interesting view.
There's also the fact of what makes a man attractive versus what makes a woman attractive, and how that is built around society's concepts of the roles that the two sexes play.
Exactly. While I could pour tons of time into working out and maintaining a high standard of grooming habits in order to maintain a high physical appeal, I find it much easier to just keep in decent shape and be charming. Which is the kind of guy that's portrayed in the media all the time. Not strong or especially handsome? Just be charming!
Meanwhile, there's a distinct lack of portrayals of fifty year old women getting the twenty something guy with a smile and some charming words.
The Hijab I can understand but a Burka is just blatant female oppression.
Also, France is nowhere near as xenophobe as some are imagining it is, the head of state excluded.
They're not xenophobic, they're assimilationist. It's just that the actions of assimilation come across as xenophobic since you're constantly trying to (forcibly) incorporate your minorities into the ideal of the "French people".
It depends where you are. Rural France is pretty much Alabama, and actually has terrorist groups that bomb wine importers to protect French wines.
The Hijab I can understand but a Burka is just blatant female oppression.
Also, France is nowhere near as xenophobe as some are imagining it is, the head of state excluded.
They're not xenophobic, they're assimilationist. It's just that the actions of assimilation come across as xenophobic since you're constantly trying to (forcibly) incorporate your minorities into the ideal of the "French people".
It depends where you are. Rural France is pretty much Alabama, and actually has terrorist groups that bomb wine importers to protect French wines.
The Hijab I can understand but a Burka is just blatant female oppression.
Also, France is nowhere near as xenophobe as some are imagining it is, the head of state excluded.
They're not xenophobic, they're assimilationist. It's just that the actions of assimilation come across as xenophobic since you're constantly trying to (forcibly) incorporate your minorities into the ideal of the "French people".
It depends where you are. Rural France is pretty much Alabama, and actually has terrorist groups that bomb wine importers to protect French wines.
I'm speaking of the state, not the French people. It's entirely possible the culture is xenophobic, particularly in certain areas, but it's the state's predisposition towards its minorities that is more interesting.
I think my issue with banning the veil is that the problem is not the veil, it's the oppression/abuse of which it is sometimes a visible symptom. I don't agree that it's a passive aggressive gesture, and I don't understand the argument that it hinders communication because that's never been my experience.
There are plenty of women in relationships with people that, through emotional blackmail and psychological abuse, coerce them into being perpetually dressed to the nines, with dyed hair, make up, and revealing clothes. These women are just as oppressed and abused by women forced to wear the niqab, but they never seem to be a part of discussions like these.
Something that can reasonably be said to be a threat to the equality of a large number of women.
Except that you don't think the media constantly advertising to women they need to focus on looking pretty for and pleasing men is a threat to their equality so once again we're back to you being a silly goose.
Can we ban heels? They're a blatant example of the Christian faith hobling women as a part of their religious sensibilities, just like the skirt, which should also banned.
But skirts are cute. If I were a girl I would totally wear skirts.
Heels seem stupid though. Not Chinese foot binding levels of stupid, mind, but still. And I'll always find it hilarious that stiletto's mean that a 120# woman exerts more weight/force psi than an elephant would; which is why the flooring by the expensive seats in opera houses or ochestral halls need to get constantly replaced whereas the cheap seat's flooring lasts for decades.
There are plenty of women in relationships with people that, through emotional blackmail and psychological abuse, coerce them into being perpetually dressed to the nines, with dyed hair, make up, and revealing clothes. These women are just as oppressed and abused by women forced to wear the niqab, but they never seem to be a part of discussions like these.
Pfft.
Clearly you haven't seen Ham's very well explained evidence stating otherwise.
Also, since the discussion seems to be kind of heading in this direction I'mma post this since it seems somewhat appropriate and the way that they just move her whole head up in photoshop still remains jarring.
Also, since the discussion seems to be kind of heading in this direction I'mma post this since it seems somewhat appropriate and the way that they just move her whole head up in photoshop still remains jarring.
A couple times in Canada I've run into someone wearing a veil. I just thought it was exotic. It didn't stop the people in question from being out in public doing what they were doing.
I dunno. I guess I can see how these veils might be tools of oppression, but can we see some real evidence for such other than saying 'a lot of muslim women are oppressed' ? For example, in strict muslim nations a woman being in the company of an unrelated man is a huge, huge deal. But both the women I met wearing veils were off on their own doing their own thing. Were they really being oppressed?
japan wrote:
There are plenty of women in relationships with people that, through emotional blackmail and psychological abuse, coerce them into being perpetually dressed to the nines, with dyed hair, make up, and revealing clothes. These women are just as oppressed and abused by women forced to wear the niqab, but they never seem to be a part of discussions like these.
Which I firmly agree with. Are we any less oppressive with the physical expectations we force upon women in the west? If you are a guy and don't think this is a big deal, I suggest you talk to some girls about it. I had no idea how pervasive it was until someone I was dating pointedly started explaining it all to me.
There are plenty of women in relationships with people that, through emotional blackmail and psychological abuse, coerce them into being perpetually dressed to the nines, with dyed hair, make up, and revealing clothes. These women are just as oppressed and abused by women forced to wear the niqab, but they never seem to be a part of discussions like these.
Are we any less oppressive with the physical expectations we force upon women in the west? If you are a guy and don't think this is a big deal, I suggest you talk to some girls about it. I had no idea how pervasive it was until someone I was dating pointedly started explaining it all to me.
I ... was talking about western women with physical expectations forced upon them. But in the specific, not the general.
Sorry, I wasn't clear, I quoted you because I agreed with your sentiment (and figured you were talking about western views on women.) My questions sound as though they're to you, thanks to the quote, but they're meant to be general to the thread. Apologies for a lack of lucidness.
Also, since the discussion seems to be kind of heading in this direction I'mma post this since it seems somewhat appropriate and the way that they just move her whole head up in photoshop still remains jarring.
Obscuration of the face should not be allowed when you enter certain public areas where identification of the face needed. It should also not be allowed to ease the minds of employees in certain functions (banks, post office, any place which handles large sums of money). If people could comply these rules, then they can wear the veil all the want the rest of the time.
It is a huge violation of human rights. This topic comes up a lot with several of my friends (who are women who choose to wear the hijab), and among them is one who wears the face veil. She doesn't have to. Her sisters certainly don't. But she chooses to because she feels a certain sense of security behind the veil. And if she feels better wearing a veil, so be it.
Currently, there is an artist by the name of Princess Hijab who has been protesting French politics from the get go. She goes around tagging posters by painting on the hijab, especially posters of models being used to advertise products.
There is claim she isn't even islamic, but her purposes for all intent is that people are constantly exploited because they choose to be, and if women wish to wear the veil then that is their personal choice so be it.
Also, since the discussion seems to be kind of heading in this direction I'mma post this since it seems somewhat appropriate and the way that they just move her whole head up in photoshop still remains jarring.
You know, just as much work goes into re-touching male models. You think they actually have those perfectly sculpted physiques? Nobody does!
YOu know what is bull crap about that ad? Dove is owned by the same company that owns Axe. And I don't see Axe body deodorant running around making sure their models are an emblem of true beauty.
Genius marketing ploy to try to entice women of all shapes sizes and appearances. Good ol' looking like the moral harbingers of all.
Don't trust commercials, especially ones that appear moral in any light to sell a product..
It is a huge violation of human rights. This topic comes up a lot with several of my friends (who are women who choose to wear the hijab), and among them is one who wears the face veil. She doesn't have to. Her sisters certainly don't. But she chooses to because she feels a certain sense of security behind the veil. And if she feels better wearing a veil, so be it.
Currently, there is an artist by the name of Princess Hijab who has been protesting French politics from the get go. She goes around tagging posters by painting on the hijab, especially posters of models being used to advertise products.
There is claim she isn't even islamic, but her purposes for all intent is that people are constantly exploited because they choose to be, and if women wish to wear the veil then that is their personal choice so be it.
Am I the only one who, upon seeing this, is thinking "What are these people up to that they feel the need to hide their face?"
Edit: After a short period of continued reflection, my next thought was "Ninja!"
Am I the only one who, upon seeing this, is thinking "What are these people up to that they feel the need to hide their face?"
This is probably heavily dependent on the frequency with which you encounter or interact with people wearing veils. If it's not something you see every day then a little bit of culture shock is understandable.
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FalloutGIRL'S DAYWAS PRETTY GOOD WHILE THEY LASTEDRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
I wonder if France's stance on religions actually keeps them from spreading. I hope so! France rules.
It is a huge violation of human rights. This topic comes up a lot with several of my friends (who are women who choose to wear the hijab), and among them is one who wears the face veil. She doesn't have to. Her sisters certainly don't. But she chooses to because she feels a certain sense of security behind the veil. And if she feels better wearing a veil, so be it.
Currently, there is an artist by the name of Princess Hijab who has been protesting French politics from the get go. She goes around tagging posters by painting on the hijab, especially posters of models being used to advertise products.
There is claim she isn't even islamic, but her purposes for all intent is that people are constantly exploited because they choose to be, and if women wish to wear the veil then that is their personal choice so be it.
Am I the only one who, upon seeing this, is thinking "What are these people up to that they feel the need to hide their face?"
Edit: After a short period of continued reflection, my next thought was "Ninja!"
someone should continue those things to make them wear full ninja gear, with weapons
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I wonder if France's stance on religions actually keeps them from spreading. I hope so! France rules.
Wait what.
There are plenty of people that would like to see the practice of religion removed from society.
Just as soon as they go fuck themselves.
I'm not condoning it, just pointing out that it is a widely held view in some circles. France is a case in point, really. It's aggressively secular and seeks to place "The Republic" above all else, personal religious belief included. Part of the justification for banning the niqab is the idea that the State is threatened by a religious practice, and the State is more important.
It's a bit of a revolutionary holdover, since French Royalty were big on the idea of the King as divine.
Banning something that is only harmful to society in the hands of the stupid is wrong, be it religion, alcohol, drugs, fireworks, guns, violent porn, or whatever.
Even if I'd personally love it if I never had to deal with another religious person or drunkard or pothead again, I'd not take away their right to be those things.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Banning something that is only harmful to society in the hands of the stupid is wrong, be it religion, alcohol, drugs, fireworks, guns, violent porn, or whatever.
Even if I'd personally love it if I never had to deal with another religious person or drunkard or pothead again, I'd not take away their right to be those things.
Or the guys who hang outside CD stores asking everyone who goes in and out, "Do you like hip-hop?"
I wonder if France's stance on religions actually keeps them from spreading. I hope so! France rules.
Wait what.
There are plenty of people that would like to see the practice of religion removed from society.
Just as soon as they go fuck themselves.
I'm not condoning it, just pointing out that it is a widely held view in some circles. France is a case in point, really. It's aggressively secular and seeks to place "The Republic" above all else, personal religious belief included. Part of the justification for banning the niqab is the idea that the State is threatened by a religious practice, and the State is more important.
It's a bit of a revolutionary holdover, since French Royalty were big on the idea of the King as divine.
What it comes down to is power and control. The status quo in the french state is afraid of losing a certain amount of power or custom, so it attacks what could be considered a threat.
State, nation, pope, whatever. Whoever is in power is scared of losing that power. To me, that's corrupt. If protecting the state means more than protecting the rights of their own people for fear that the Niqab might "influence" religion over the state, then the french state needs to get their priorities straight.
Those are outdated rules. We are in a gosh darn global community where seeing people of different religious, racial, national, or whatever background is just going to increase in neighborhoods throughout. If they want to ban the darn niqab, they might as well just ban any newcomers from entering France for fear it would "threaten" the state.
Banning something that is only harmful to society in the hands of the stupid is wrong, be it religion, alcohol, drugs, fireworks, guns, violent porn, or whatever.
Even if I'd personally love it if I never had to deal with another religious person or drunkard or pothead again, I'd not take away their right to be those things.
That's the thing. By even talking about banning the veil, it leaves it in an unknown area where negative stereotypes exist.
There are many muslim women who choose to wear it, not by familial pressure. They do so because they feel much more secure and more protected. And in a lot of ways that makes sense. If a veil will prevent them from being leered at by men, if it gives them a sense of anonymity where men are unable to stalk them, if they feel completely safe because they don't have to retort flirtatious encounters, then let it be.
My lady friend says she loves her veil because she feels like she's always in control with men not having a darn clue what she looks like and her making the flirtatious advances if she so chooses. And its true. When I'm with her, she rarely gets approached compared to any other lady I have as a friend. But when she wants to approach someone, I'll be darned if they don't have her attention.
they might as well just ban any newcomers from entering France for fear it would "threaten" the state.
They frequently do, if the authorities feel that the person in question is one that would have loyalties to an entity other than The Republic.
The basis of it is that religion in France has traditionally always been a source of oppression, or a tool of oppressors. As far as they see it, the Republic is the protector of freedom, but their definition of freedom doesn't necessarily include freedom of, or to practice, religion.
Again, not condoning this, just that this is my understanding of how religous politics in France works.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited February 2010
I hear they're accepting of tortured artists who rape little girls.
they might as well just ban any newcomers from entering France for fear it would "threaten" the state.
They frequently do, if the authorities feel that the person in question is one that would have loyalties to an entity other than The Republic.
The basis of it is that religion in France has traditionally always been a source of oppression, or a tool of oppressors. As far as they see it, the Republic is the protector of freedom, but their definition of freedom doesn't necessarily include freedom of, or to practice, religion.
Again, not condoning this, just that this is my understanding of how religous politics in France works.
I understand. But their banning of the Niqab is tremendously and absolutely sexist. They aren't targetting people who wear a rosary, people who grow their beards for specific reasons, or any other form of clothing or ritual. They are targeting women and women specifically.
They might as well just say "Yeah so we don't think you ladies there have the ability to make decisions for yourself. So we'll just do it for you. Enjoy."
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I understand. But their banning of the Niqab is tremendously and absolutely sexist. They aren't targetting people who wear a rosary, people who grow their beards for specific reasons, or any other form of clothing or ritual. They are targeting women and women specifically.
They might as well just say "Yeah so we don't think you ladies there have the ability to make decisions for yourself. So we'll just do it for you. Enjoy."
They often don't. I mean in the UK we have about a dozens honour killings a year, to the point where the met had to set up a tea to specifically deal with them. Do you not think that this is reflective of wider attitudes as opposed to a few nuts? Anecdotally, I grew up just outside Tooting, and personally know a girl who took off her hijab whenever she got to school, she was forced to wear it and afraid of her farther beating her if she refused. How does other women 'choosing' to wear the hijab or niqab act within that context (of others being forced to use it)?
You simply can't divorce the act from the wider cultural context.
Ideally though, there should be a way to help people in that kind of situation without an absolute ban on something many people wear willingly and happily.
Religious shit imposed on women and kids is about number two on my list of shit I can't stand, so I can certainly get why some people might want to just say 'fuck it' and get rid of it altogether, but still.
Maybe religion should be treated like sex, and subject to the same laws. Same age of consent, same punishment for forcing it on women, children, and smaller guys! Religion is way worse for you than sex, after all.
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They're not xenophobic, they're assimilationist. It's just that the actions of assimilation come across as xenophobic since you're constantly trying to (forcibly) incorporate your minorities into the ideal of the "French people".
It had eased in the past few decades with efforts towards conciliation, but I think it's flaring back up with the even more recent influx of new minorities.
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Exactly. While I could pour tons of time into working out and maintaining a high standard of grooming habits in order to maintain a high physical appeal, I find it much easier to just keep in decent shape and be charming. Which is the kind of guy that's portrayed in the media all the time. Not strong or especially handsome? Just be charming!
Meanwhile, there's a distinct lack of portrayals of fifty year old women getting the twenty something guy with a smile and some charming words.
It depends where you are. Rural France is pretty much Alabama, and actually has terrorist groups that bomb wine importers to protect French wines.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1828722,00.html
OK, that is hilarious.
I'm speaking of the state, not the French people. It's entirely possible the culture is xenophobic, particularly in certain areas, but it's the state's predisposition towards its minorities that is more interesting.
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There are plenty of women in relationships with people that, through emotional blackmail and psychological abuse, coerce them into being perpetually dressed to the nines, with dyed hair, make up, and revealing clothes. These women are just as oppressed and abused by women forced to wear the niqab, but they never seem to be a part of discussions like these.
Says the person who makes a distinction between "real threats" and... something else you never defined.
Meanwhile, everything I listed falls under, and I quote:
Except that you don't think the media constantly advertising to women they need to focus on looking pretty for and pleasing men is a threat to their equality so once again we're back to you being a silly goose.
But skirts are cute. If I were a girl I would totally wear skirts.
Heels seem stupid though. Not Chinese foot binding levels of stupid, mind, but still. And I'll always find it hilarious that stiletto's mean that a 120# woman exerts more weight/force psi than an elephant would; which is why the flooring by the expensive seats in opera houses or ochestral halls need to get constantly replaced whereas the cheap seat's flooring lasts for decades.
Pfft.
Clearly you haven't seen Ham's very well explained evidence stating otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYhCn0jf46U
..
..
I dunno. I guess I can see how these veils might be tools of oppression, but can we see some real evidence for such other than saying 'a lot of muslim women are oppressed' ? For example, in strict muslim nations a woman being in the company of an unrelated man is a huge, huge deal. But both the women I met wearing veils were off on their own doing their own thing. Were they really being oppressed?
japan wrote:
Which I firmly agree with. Are we any less oppressive with the physical expectations we force upon women in the west? If you are a guy and don't think this is a big deal, I suggest you talk to some girls about it. I had no idea how pervasive it was until someone I was dating pointedly started explaining it all to me.
I ... was talking about western women with physical expectations forced upon them. But in the specific, not the general.
You know, just as much work goes into re-touching male models. You think they actually have those perfectly sculpted physiques? Nobody does!
Yes, I do.
More fuel for the fire.
Obscuration of the face should not be allowed when you enter certain public areas where identification of the face needed. It should also not be allowed to ease the minds of employees in certain functions (banks, post office, any place which handles large sums of money). If people could comply these rules, then they can wear the veil all the want the rest of the time.
Currently, there is an artist by the name of Princess Hijab who has been protesting French politics from the get go. She goes around tagging posters by painting on the hijab, especially posters of models being used to advertise products.
There is claim she isn't even islamic, but her purposes for all intent is that people are constantly exploited because they choose to be, and if women wish to wear the veil then that is their personal choice so be it.
Edit: After a short period of continued reflection, my next thought was "Ninja!"
This is probably heavily dependent on the frequency with which you encounter or interact with people wearing veils. If it's not something you see every day then a little bit of culture shock is understandable.
Wait what.
There are plenty of people that would like to see the practice of religion removed from society.
Just as soon as they go fuck themselves.
I'm not condoning it, just pointing out that it is a widely held view in some circles. France is a case in point, really. It's aggressively secular and seeks to place "The Republic" above all else, personal religious belief included. Part of the justification for banning the niqab is the idea that the State is threatened by a religious practice, and the State is more important.
It's a bit of a revolutionary holdover, since French Royalty were big on the idea of the King as divine.
Even if I'd personally love it if I never had to deal with another religious person or drunkard or pothead again, I'd not take away their right to be those things.
Or the guys who hang outside CD stores asking everyone who goes in and out, "Do you like hip-hop?"
What it comes down to is power and control. The status quo in the french state is afraid of losing a certain amount of power or custom, so it attacks what could be considered a threat.
State, nation, pope, whatever. Whoever is in power is scared of losing that power. To me, that's corrupt. If protecting the state means more than protecting the rights of their own people for fear that the Niqab might "influence" religion over the state, then the french state needs to get their priorities straight.
Those are outdated rules. We are in a gosh darn global community where seeing people of different religious, racial, national, or whatever background is just going to increase in neighborhoods throughout. If they want to ban the darn niqab, they might as well just ban any newcomers from entering France for fear it would "threaten" the state.
That's the thing. By even talking about banning the veil, it leaves it in an unknown area where negative stereotypes exist.
There are many muslim women who choose to wear it, not by familial pressure. They do so because they feel much more secure and more protected. And in a lot of ways that makes sense. If a veil will prevent them from being leered at by men, if it gives them a sense of anonymity where men are unable to stalk them, if they feel completely safe because they don't have to retort flirtatious encounters, then let it be.
My lady friend says she loves her veil because she feels like she's always in control with men not having a darn clue what she looks like and her making the flirtatious advances if she so chooses. And its true. When I'm with her, she rarely gets approached compared to any other lady I have as a friend. But when she wants to approach someone, I'll be darned if they don't have her attention.
They frequently do, if the authorities feel that the person in question is one that would have loyalties to an entity other than The Republic.
The basis of it is that religion in France has traditionally always been a source of oppression, or a tool of oppressors. As far as they see it, the Republic is the protector of freedom, but their definition of freedom doesn't necessarily include freedom of, or to practice, religion.
Again, not condoning this, just that this is my understanding of how religous politics in France works.
France has sheltered, and still does, many horrible people, up to and including genocide perpetrators.
It doesn't really have much to with the politics of religion there, though.
I understand. But their banning of the Niqab is tremendously and absolutely sexist. They aren't targetting people who wear a rosary, people who grow their beards for specific reasons, or any other form of clothing or ritual. They are targeting women and women specifically.
They might as well just say "Yeah so we don't think you ladies there have the ability to make decisions for yourself. So we'll just do it for you. Enjoy."
It's more or less stating that their priorities are maybe a tad bit out of whack.
They often don't. I mean in the UK we have about a dozens honour killings a year, to the point where the met had to set up a tea to specifically deal with them. Do you not think that this is reflective of wider attitudes as opposed to a few nuts? Anecdotally, I grew up just outside Tooting, and personally know a girl who took off her hijab whenever she got to school, she was forced to wear it and afraid of her farther beating her if she refused. How does other women 'choosing' to wear the hijab or niqab act within that context (of others being forced to use it)?
You simply can't divorce the act from the wider cultural context.
Religious shit imposed on women and kids is about number two on my list of shit I can't stand, so I can certainly get why some people might want to just say 'fuck it' and get rid of it altogether, but still.
Maybe religion should be treated like sex, and subject to the same laws. Same age of consent, same punishment for forcing it on women, children, and smaller guys! Religion is way worse for you than sex, after all.