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Should we domesticate bears, lions, and other beasts?

24

Posts

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    Qingu wrote: »
    Unfair comparison! The chimps who ate people's faces weren't domesticated. I don't believe there are any domesticated species of primates though of course the slow lori is

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9f-6jygRJk

    very cute indeed

    Slow loris are awesome until you read about how they are obtained to be pets and how persons catch them, pull out their teeth with pliars, and then do generally unpleasant things to them.

    _J_ on
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    It's really hard to have a language without an artificially huge consensus of communication. There is no reason why dolphins born hundreds of miles from eachother would have anything to talk about before they meet.

    Paladin on
    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Yis, I should have said "some" animals, not animals. Whales especially!

    Qingu on
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    Paladin wrote: »
    It's really hard to have a language without an artificially huge consensus of communication. There is no reason why dolphins born hundreds of miles from eachother would have anything to talk about before they meet.

    Whoa there.

    That's not really the best articulation of language theory.

    _J_ on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    Qingu wrote: »
    Today, many wolves are on the verge of extinction... Why not do the same with bears... and other great beasts of legend that are endangered?

    Fantastic idea.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • Orochi_RockmanOrochi_Rockman __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2010
    So Slow Loris are only 'slow' because they've had their spirits thoroughly broken and have resigned themselves to a slow hopeless death in confinement?

    Orochi_Rockman on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    Today, many wolves are on the verge of extinction... Why not do the same with bears... and other great beasts of legend that are endangered?

    Fantastic idea.
    Seeing eye bears would be the greatest thing.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    So Slow Loris are only 'slow' because they've had their spirits thoroughly broken and have resigned themselves to a slow hopeless death in confinement?

    Basically.

    They catch them pull out their teeth with pliars, cut out their venom sacks, and then stuff them into a box and ship them to be sold.

    And people be all "aww...that's adorable. I wants one!"

    Which seems to entirely ignore the whole pliars thing.

    Edit: Also ignores that they naturally come equipped with venom.

    _J_ on
  • CycloneRangerCycloneRanger Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Paladin wrote: »
    It's really hard to have a language without an artificially huge consensus of communication. There is no reason why dolphins born hundreds of miles from eachother would have anything to talk about before they meet.
    I'm pretty sure whales can (could, before we invented heavy shipping) carry on "conversations" slowly across thousands of miles of water. At any given time one individual would be in contact with many others, even for asocial whales. And dolphins meet in groups of hundreds or even thousands, which seems to put them on at least equal footing with early humans in that area.

    [Edit: I don't think "asocial" is the right word for this, but I think the meaning is clear. Maybe "less social" or whatever; I'm talking about the species that spend most of their lives alone.]

    CycloneRanger on
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    _J_ wrote: »

    Slow loris are awesome until you read about how they are obtained to be pets and how persons catch them, pull out their teeth with pliars, and then do generally unpleasant things to them.
    Noooooo!

    Not the slow loris in the video, right?

    Qingu on
  • Orochi_RockmanOrochi_Rockman __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2010
    Knowing that the little thing would come with sharp teeth and venom if it were fresh and not processed makes it appear even more adorable to me.

    Orochi_Rockman on
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    Qingu wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »

    Slow loris are awesome until you read about how they are obtained to be pets and how persons catch them, pull out their teeth with pliars, and then do generally unpleasant things to them.
    Noooooo!

    Not the slow loris in the video, right?

    Totally the slow loris in that video.

    _J_ on
  • Tiger BurningTiger Burning Dig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tube regular
    edited March 2010
    Elki wrote: »
    Talleyrand wrote: »
    areyounotentertained.jpg

    A terrible joke but also kinda what happens when you treat godless killing machines like tamagachis.

    Breaking News! Killer Whale Tries to Kill! Everyone Shocked!

    I first heard the news on the radio, and when they gave the whale's name, "Tilly", I thought that they said, "Killy". Like, "Killy the Killer Whale". I was very disappointed when I discovered my error.

    Tiger Burning on
    Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    Elki wrote: »
    Talleyrand wrote: »
    areyounotentertained.jpg

    A terrible joke but also kinda what happens when you treat godless killing machines like tamagachis.

    Breaking News! Killer Whale Tries to Kill! Everyone Shocked!

    I first heard the news on the radio, and when they gave the whale's name, "Tilly", I thought that they said, "Killy". Like, "Killy the Killer Whale". I was very disappointed when I discovered my error.

    Yeah. I am glad the whale was too valueable to be put down.

    _J_ on
  • JuliusJulius Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Qingu wrote: »

    I think about this question all the time with my cat, because I love him more than all the jewels beneath the earth, and I worry that I am depriving him—via domestication—of a life he would rather live in the wild.

    Your cat wouldn't rather want to live in the wild. Seriously, that's why he comes back every time. It's like "man hell yeah i gets food i don't have to hunt for and mad cozy places to sleep".

    Julius on
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    Julius wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »

    I think about this question all the time with my cat, because I love him more than all the jewels beneath the earth, and I worry that I am depriving him—via domestication—of a life he would rather live in the wild.

    Your cat wouldn't rather want to live in the wild. Seriously, that's why he comes back every time. It's like "man hell yeah i gets food i don't have to hunt for and mad cozy places to sleep".

    Yeah. Freedom sucks.

    _J_ on
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited March 2010
    _J_ wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    Why not do the same with bears? And lions? And panthers, and other great beasts of legend that are endangered? Who wouldn't love a snow leopard as a pet?

    Assuming a future where genetic engineering allows us to do this with little danger to either humans or beasts, would you be in favor?

    Animal ethics is crazy as a result of the sorts of ontologies persons create while articulating what one ought or ought not do with a particular animal. So, with regard to domesticating animals...basically I think all sides are nuts, given how crazy the arguments are on both sides.

    My argument is that I prefer to not be tiger lunch. Or dinner, I guess.

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    Elki wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    Why not do the same with bears? And lions? And panthers, and other great beasts of legend that are endangered? Who wouldn't love a snow leopard as a pet?

    Assuming a future where genetic engineering allows us to do this with little danger to either humans or beasts, would you be in favor?

    Animal ethics is crazy as a result of the sorts of ontologies persons create while articulating what one ought or ought not do with a particular animal. So, with regard to domesticating animals...basically I think all sides are nuts, given how crazy the arguments are on both sides.

    My argument is that I prefer to not be tiger lunch. Or dinner, I guess.

    So if someone prefers to fuck sheep, they are permitted to fuck sheep.

    _J_ on
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited March 2010
    _J_ wrote: »
    Elki wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    Why not do the same with bears? And lions? And panthers, and other great beasts of legend that are endangered? Who wouldn't love a snow leopard as a pet?

    Assuming a future where genetic engineering allows us to do this with little danger to either humans or beasts, would you be in favor?

    Animal ethics is crazy as a result of the sorts of ontologies persons create while articulating what one ought or ought not do with a particular animal. So, with regard to domesticating animals...basically I think all sides are nuts, given how crazy the arguments are on both sides.

    My argument is that I prefer to not be tiger lunch. Or dinner, I guess.

    So if someone prefers to fuck sheep, they are permitted to fuck sheep.

    I don't feel it has much to do with this, or me being eaten.

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited March 2010
    Qingu wrote: »
    Elki wrote: »
    I think the comparison to the domestication of dogs is great, because people are (too often) horrible dog owners. Just imagine translating dog ownership habits to tiger owning habits... yeah, that sounds great.
    This program would need to be accompanied by mandatory killing of bad pet owners; also mandatory abortions for non-intelligent non-empathetic parents while we're at it.

    Edit: to respond more seriously, can't you make the same argument against bad parents? Isn't it basically the same problem? A poorly-raised child can also be quite dangerous.

    Babies are: necessary to society.
    Restricting their makings: a logistical/privacy nightmare, and brings up ze old problems of racism/sexism/'ism.

    Tiger pets: Just cool.

    Elki on
    smCQ5WE.jpg
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    Elki wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    Elki wrote: »
    I think the comparison to the domestication of dogs is great, because people are (too often) horrible dog owners. Just imagine translating dog ownership habits to tiger owning habits... yeah, that sounds great.
    This program would need to be accompanied by mandatory killing of bad pet owners; also mandatory abortions for non-intelligent non-empathetic parents while we're at it.

    Edit: to respond more seriously, can't you make the same argument against bad parents? Isn't it basically the same problem? A poorly-raised child can also be quite dangerous.

    Babies are: necessary to society.
    Restricting their makings: a logistical/privacy nightmare, and brings up ze old problems of racism/sexism/'ism.

    Tiger pets: Just cool.

    It's only a problem for the people who are told they can't reproduce.

    And their kind will not be around for long.

    _J_ on
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    _J_ wrote: »
    Yeah. Freedom sucks.
    Calling non-domesticated existence "freedom" is more than a little bit loaded and inaccurate.

    Qingu on
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    Qingu wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Yeah. Freedom sucks.
    Calling non-domesticated existence "freedom" is more than a little bit loaded and inaccurate.

    How so?

    _J_ on
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    _J_ wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Yeah. Freedom sucks.
    Calling non-domesticated existence "freedom" is more than a little bit loaded and inaccurate.

    How so?
    Perhaps it would help if you defined what you meant by "freedom."

    Qingu on
  • Orochi_RockmanOrochi_Rockman __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2010
    Non-domesticated.

    Orochi_Rockman on
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    Qingu wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Yeah. Freedom sucks.
    Calling non-domesticated existence "freedom" is more than a little bit loaded and inaccurate.

    How so?
    Perhaps it would help if you defined what you meant by "freedom."

    Not being captive.

    _J_ on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Non-domesticated.
    "Wild".

    I'm not sure "free" really applies to a creature with a cat's level of self-determination.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Heh.

    Non-domesticated existence demonstrably sucks in a huge number of ways. Also, wild animals are often subject to power relationships/dominance hierarchies in which they are subjugated to a greater extent than most human pet owners subjugate their pets.

    Qingu on
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    _J_ wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Yeah. Freedom sucks.
    Calling non-domesticated existence "freedom" is more than a little bit loaded and inaccurate.

    How so?
    Perhaps it would help if you defined what you meant by "freedom."

    Not being captive.
    Do you think humans who spend most of their lives indoors in cities are "captive"?

    Qingu on
  • Orochi_RockmanOrochi_Rockman __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2010
    If I want to leave my house I can. If my dog wants to leave the house, it can't.

    Orochi_Rockman on
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Qingu wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Yeah. Freedom sucks.
    Calling non-domesticated existence "freedom" is more than a little bit loaded and inaccurate.

    How so?
    Perhaps it would help if you defined what you meant by "freedom."

    Not being captive.
    Do you think humans who spend most of their lives indoors in cities are "captive"?

    Yes. If you're in a city and you don't go to a park or a nice restaurant once in a while you will go insane

    Paladin on
    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    If I want to leave my house I can. If my dog wants to leave the house, it can't.
    I can't leave my office building from 9 to 5 every day.

    Qingu on
  • Orochi_RockmanOrochi_Rockman __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2010
    They lock you in? Like if you tried to go out, the doors would not open?

    Orochi_Rockman on
  • HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    _J_ wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Yeah. Freedom sucks.
    Calling non-domesticated existence "freedom" is more than a little bit loaded and inaccurate.

    How so?
    Perhaps it would help if you defined what you meant by "freedom."

    Not being captive.

    My cat is an indoor-outdoor cat. If she wanted to leave, she could.

    Hachface on
  • PerpetualPerpetual Registered User
    edited March 2010
    If I want to leave my house I can. If my dog wants to leave the house, it can't.

    That's probably because you don't want it get run over by a car, as opposed to feeling like an evil captor.

    Intent matters.

    Perpetual on
  • PerpetualPerpetual Registered User
    edited March 2010
    They lock you in? Like if you tried to go out, the doors would not open?

    They would open on the way out, but not on the way back in (as in, they might fire him).

    Perpetual on
  • LawndartLawndart Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Have we domesticated any asocial predators before? I can't think of any off the top of my head. I suspect it'd be extremely hard to get anything resembling "domestication" from a bear. Lions, maybe... eh, I don't really know.

    "Asocial" meaning non-pack predators?

    Cats and ferrets.

    That's it. For the entirety of human existence.

    Two.

    And cats only sort of count.

    So barring some use of applied phlogiston to domesticate lions, tigers and bears* via magic, I doubt it's going to happen anytime ever.

    *Oh my.

    Lawndart on
  • Orochi_RockmanOrochi_Rockman __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2010
    Perpetual wrote: »
    If I want to leave my house I can. If my dog wants to leave the house, it can't.

    That's probably because you don't want it get run over by a car, as opposed to feeling like an evil captor.

    Intent matters.

    He doesn't know that.

    Orochi_Rockman on
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    what about domesticated animals







    that you eat

    Paladin on
    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    At our old homestead, cats and dogs were outside unless specifically brought inside for some reason. They were also fed regularly, taken care of medically, got to go on rides when we felt like it and even watch the occasional baseball game in town. I mean, we basically run a socialist state with a population of 3 dogs and 4 cats.

    Are those animals more or less free than a feral version of the same species would be?

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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