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[WoW] What Are All These Buttons, Paladin Thread?

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    SammichSammich Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Samphis wrote: »
    Honestly, Holy Paladins should just be retuned to use the same gear as Ret, so that they get spellpower from strength and crit. Spell plate can then die and not take up room on our loot tables for the other 29 specs in the game.

    God that would be so awesome. Then i can use the same gear for ret/holy instead of having extra crap in my bags.

    Sammich on
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    JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Samphis wrote: »
    Honestly, Holy Paladins should just be retuned to use the same gear as Ret, so that they get spellpower from strength and crit. Spell plate can then die and not take up room on our loot tables for the other 29 specs in the game.

    No chance that is happening, since we already know that INT and Spirit are the two big things all healers will be looking for on their gear in Cataclysm. Frankly, it wouldn't be fair to have Holy Paladins be sharing gear with all the DPS plate specs anyway. Not to mention it would make no sense because some of that plate DPS gear has hit/expertise and such on it.

    Having Holy Paladins be the only spec that can use plate healing gear has never killed anyone before, and it won't kill anyone in the future.

    Joshmvii on
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    El FantasticoEl Fantastico Toronto, ONRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    With Holy Shock going baseline, I question if they'll change it's mechanics like they did with consecrate.

    Consecrate used to scale based on the paladin's SP. Then they changed it to AP when they decided to homogenize Paladin tank gear away from spell plate moving into the WotLK expansion. No real complaints there since it became a valuable tank tool.

    With Holy Shock, Protadins have a decent mix of AP and SP, though it sounds like they'll have more lean to AP with the Vengeance thing. So Holy Shock probably won't do as much damage/healing for them as Holy Paladins - unless they switch it to AP just like they did consecrate. I can only hope not, and if anything, they put a talent to switch HS' modifier for the Prot/Ret tree to have it scale better to suit their needs.

    To my knowledge Consecrate still scales off SP, the trick here is that SP is derived from STR/AP for Prot/Ret.

    If that were true, I know I'd be doing more than the 240~ damage per tick on my holy paladin. But maybe I'm in the wrong. My offspec is tank and I haven't tanked much lately so I'm little fuzzy on numbers.

    El Fantastico on
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    JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    With Holy Shock going baseline, I question if they'll change it's mechanics like they did with consecrate.

    Consecrate used to scale based on the paladin's SP. Then they changed it to AP when they decided to homogenize Paladin tank gear away from spell plate moving into the WotLK expansion. No real complaints there since it became a valuable tank tool.

    With Holy Shock, Protadins have a decent mix of AP and SP, though it sounds like they'll have more lean to AP with the Vengeance thing. So Holy Shock probably won't do as much damage/healing for them as Holy Paladins - unless they switch it to AP just like they did consecrate. I can only hope not, and if anything, they put a talent to switch HS' modifier for the Prot/Ret tree to have it scale better to suit their needs.

    To my knowledge Consecrate still scales off SP, the trick here is that SP is derived from STR/AP for Prot/Ret.

    If that were true, I know I'd be doing more than the 240~ damage per tick on my holy paladin. But maybe I'm in the wrong. My offspec is tank and I haven't tanked much lately so I'm little fuzzy on numbers.

    Consecration has an equal coefficient from SP and AP. It's something like X + .04*SP + .04*AP

    Joshmvii on
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    fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Blizzard is content to have the tidal waves of SP plate being sharded while half the raid is desperately praying for/fighting over weapons and trinkets.

    forty on
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    BigityBigity Lubbock, TXRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    The one holy paladin designer must have some good shit on the rest of the team.

    Bigity on
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    DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    reVerse wrote: »
    Prot is getting ridiculous. Holy shock AND Crusader strike, instant Blinding Shield and the AGoK. They'll be more tougher to kill than anything else on the battlefield.

    So nothing changes in that regard.

    Feral druids can be nightmarish, too.

    And unholy DKs, while not as hard to kill as prot, are still extremely hard to kill and do more damage while doing so.

    But I loves me some prot. Warsong Gulch is fun again.

    DisruptorX2 on
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    El FantasticoEl Fantastico Toronto, ONRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    forty wrote: »
    Blizzard is content to have the tidal waves of SP plate being sharded while half the raid is desperately praying for/fighting over weapons and trinkets.

    Your Guild/PUG will be happy to roll on those shards as a means of cheaply obtained mats for enchants. It's a part of the game economy these days.

    El Fantastico on
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    fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Yes, because a 40-gold crystal has as much value to a guild as a 264/277 weapon.

    forty on
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    PoketpixiePoketpixie Siege Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    Samphis wrote: »
    Honestly, Holy Paladins should just be retuned to use the same gear as Ret, so that they get spellpower from strength and crit. Spell plate can then die and not take up room on our loot tables for the other 29 specs in the game.

    No chance that is happening, since we already know that INT and Spirit are the two big things all healers will be looking for on their gear in Cataclysm. Frankly, it wouldn't be fair to have Holy Paladins be sharing gear with all the DPS plate specs anyway. Not to mention it would make no sense because some of that plate DPS gear has hit/expertise and such on it.

    Having Holy Paladins be the only spec that can use plate healing gear has never killed anyone before, and it won't kill anyone in the future.

    At this point I'm not sure why they don't simply have holy paladins using caster mail.

    Poketpixie on
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    AngryAngry The glory I had witnessed was just a sleight of handRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Paladin Healing model
    We talked a lot about keeping the paladin model inverted, where the small heal is super efficient. There is probably a way it could still work. In the end we were just concerned that it would end up biting us in the rear. Somewhere along the way we'd have to make special rules to handle the paladin, who would risk being too mana efficient or too incapable of healing when forced to heal outside of their mana-efficient comfort zone. Could we have designed it? Probably. But frankly I'd rather spend our time on more interesting mechanics and spells. I'd rather the new AE heal really make paladins feel like they can AE heal rather than really making sure FoL felt small, cheap and fast. I agree it erodes a little bit of distinction among the classes, but only a little bit. There are far more interesting ways to make healers feel unique than in the relative mana efficiency of their small spell. (Source)

    Divine Storm
    Divine Storm will get the Whirlwind treatment (less damage per target but unlimited targets).

    The difference is that paladins fit their rotations around cooldowns while warriors do so around a limited resource. So it's entirely possible a paladin will still use DS when other attacks are on cooldown. (It will depend on what exactly the Ret rotation looks like, which we're still developing.) Divine Storm also provides a little healing too, so it's not exactly the same as Whirlwind. We probably wouldn't want to get to the point where Rets feel the need to have their single target spec without DS and the cleave spec with DS. (And without knowing the numbers, it's going to be difficult for any of you to insist that this will or will not happen.)

    In general, we don't want buttons that are good against single targets to just be better against groups of targets. It makes rotations too static and makes numbers hard to balance since "cleavey" specs can do so much more damage against tight packs of enemies. Some higher damage is fine. It just too extreme right now.

    These are previews, not patch notes. Just because we didn't mention anything doesn't mean there is no chance of it changing. (Source)

    Blessings / Blessing of Sanctuary
    Kings and Might can just be raid wide. There should be no need to target individuals. We're trying to make sure there isn't a circumstance where one dude would prefer the opposite buff to everyone else.

    Bo Sanc could just be Kings with an extra mana component (for the paladin). We're also considering making it a passive that gives the paladin mana and provides the 3% damage reduction buff raid-wide which is currently brought by Renewed Hope (the Disc talent). (Source)

    Scaling back AoE Tanking Capabilities of Paladins
    That's still the goal. I guess I'm unclear of what part of the paladin preview you took to mean that we're keeping the same or even enhancing the ability for paladins to AE tank.

    We tried to stay away from numbers as much as possible in the previews, except to give you a vague sense of the intent for some of the new abilities in terms of whether something has a short cooldown or a long cooldown.

    [...] No, it's not really that. We just have a couple of different avenues we're exploring and we didn't want to have say models A, B and C in different large paragraphs. The ideas just need a little more time to bake.

    And I'm not entirely sure how you're using "niches" but I am talking about wanting Prot paladins to use slightly different rotations against single targets than against groups. The addition of Crusader Strike (and maybe Holy Shock?) alone start to provide that. (Source)

    Critical Healing Effect
    There also seems to be some confusion about Critical Healing Effect which simply means a critical heal can do more than 150%. (Think of talents like Ruin for warlocks.) We wanted to keep some of the feel of Holy paladins getting big critical heals and caring about crit in general. This mechanic wouldn’t really have worked in Wrath of the Lich King because big crits just translated into overhealing. In Cataclysm that shouldn’t be the case. (Source)

    Angry on
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    DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    So, with CS and whatnot, seems like Prot should be doing pretty well in a pvp context. Unless they cut back the AoE on shield throw, which seems unlikely, since its a long cooldown ability.

    Much info there about healing, not so much about other specs. I'm interested in how they plan on making ret less of a defensive class. Because if prot turns out weak in pvp, I really don't want to be playing a glass cannon ret paladin.

    DisruptorX2 on
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    fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    So how are health pools going to get so large in proportion to damage? Is stamina going to have another TBC-style reduction in item budget cost on Cataclysm gear? Maybe 2 stamina = 1 stat? Are they just going to itemize everything to have a shitload more stamina at the cost of other stats? Are all the stats going to remain proportionately the same (just higher in number on level 85 gear, obviously) but all the offensive/healing abilities will just scale less steeply? I kind of doubt that last one since it would completely fuck up the existing game and all mobs would have to be retuned.

    forty on
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    The Big LevinskyThe Big Levinsky Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    So Divine Storm gets a single target nerf now? I wish they'd post some news about what they're doing with Ret's offensive capabilities. Aside from the pet angel, they haven't mentioned too much about offensive abilities for Ret. We get Holy Shock now? I hope we have the mana to cast that more than twice in a fight...

    The Big Levinsky on
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    -SPI--SPI- Osaka, JapanRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Samphis wrote: »
    Honestly, Holy Paladins should just be retuned to use the same gear as Ret, so that they get spellpower from strength and crit. Spell plate can then die and not take up room on our loot tables for the other 29 specs in the game.

    Nah, getting rid of Spell Plate would just mean guild banks in Cata would have a shortage of enchanting supplies.

    -SPI- on
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    NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    EDIT: Quoted wrong post

    Well they're also planning on putting in some kind of replacing ability for crusader strike at higher levels since it's now going to be trainable.

    They've also mentioned ret getting a real interrupt

    Nobody on
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    korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    So my Paladin's now 42 and has since switched from tanking as Ret to tanking as Prot, and as such I no longer have Seal of Command to fall back on as an all-purpose seal of awesomeness. Any recommendations on which seals I should be using while solo and while in groups?

    korodullin on
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    SabanSaban Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Remember how naxx has 2 sets of sp plate? good times.

    Saban on
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    VarethiusVarethius CymruRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    korodullin wrote: »
    So my Paladin's now 42 and has since switched from tanking as Ret to tanking as Prot, and as such I no longer have Seal of Command to fall back on as an all-purpose seal of awesomeness. Any recommendations on which seals I should be using while solo and while in groups?

    Most people still take SoComm before putting points in prot I believe. I'd recomend using Seal of Corruption on single targets though (if its available at that lvl). I used to use it all the time before I picked up SoComm. Or, if worst comes to worst, SoL/SoW, I used those alot to aoe grind as prot.

    Varethius on
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    korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Seal of Vengeance (the Alliance's Corruption) isn't until 64. I'm 46.

    I've been taking to using Seal of Righteousness unless I begin having mana issues, and then I switch to Wisdom until I'm full, then back to SoR. It's working well so far. I do plan to pick up SoCom when I start back into Ret after I finish Prot though.

    I'm still not loving the "target another player, not the enemy" mechanic of Righteous Defense though.

    korodullin on
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    korodullin wrote: »
    Seal of Vengeance (the Alliance's Corruption) isn't until 64. I'm 46.

    I've been taking to using Seal of Righteousness unless I begin having mana issues, and then I switch to Wisdom until I'm full, then back to SoR. It's working well so far. I do plan to pick up SoCom when I start back into Ret after I finish Prot though.

    I'm still not loving the "target another player, not the enemy" mechanic of Righteous Defense though.

    Wait, their exist Paladins who don't have that spell macroed?

    shryke on
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    DranythDranyth Surf ColoradoRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Uh... huh? That spell was changed a *long* time ago to work like everyone had it macroed anyway.

    If you have a mob targeted, it will use it on the Target of Target of the mob... so the party member the mob is going for.

    Dranyth on
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    korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I just have it set up with VuhDo where I can shift right-click a party member that shows as having aggro, but some times it doesn't like showing it.

    Now that I know you can just slap it on a mob itself, that'll do a lot better.

    korodullin on
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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    korodullin wrote: »
    Our Paladin healer in my guild is freaking the fuck out about the Beacon of Light changes, and I don't know what to tell him to calm him down. Any advice?

    tell him that cataclysm is more than six months away even by the most optimistic estimates and to shut the hell up.
    shryke wrote: »
    korodullin wrote: »
    Seal of Vengeance (the Alliance's Corruption) isn't until 64. I'm 46.

    I've been taking to using Seal of Righteousness unless I begin having mana issues, and then I switch to Wisdom until I'm full, then back to SoR. It's working well so far. I do plan to pick up SoCom when I start back into Ret after I finish Prot though.

    I'm still not loving the "target another player, not the enemy" mechanic of Righteous Defense though.

    Wait, their exist Paladins who don't have that spell macroed?

    that spell hasn't had to be macro'd since 3.0 in October 2008.

    Dhalphir on
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    fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    -SPI- wrote: »
    Samphis wrote: »
    Honestly, Holy Paladins should just be retuned to use the same gear as Ret, so that they get spellpower from strength and crit. Spell plate can then die and not take up room on our loot tables for the other 29 specs in the game.

    Nah, getting rid of Spell Plate would just mean guild banks in Cata would have a shortage of enchanting supplies.
    Sounds like a good problem to have.

    forty on
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    NamonNamon Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Ok i have a question about specs. My original plan was do ret until 60 and then try to dual spec Ret and Prot because I split my time between just normal grinding/quests solo and doing instances as a tank (which is my end goal). I don't think it's going to be possible to afford the dual spec thing (once you get to 20 or so all items in the auction house just stop selling). How does prot perform as a solo grinding/questing spec in outlands? I'm not real big on mass AOE grinding so does it do ok on lower pull counts? I am not expecting RET like performance but is it just completely not efficient to do that using prot?

    Namon on
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    JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Namon wrote: »
    Ok i have a question about specs. My original plan was do ret until 60 and then try to dual spec Ret and Prot because I split my time between just normal grinding/quests solo and doing instances as a tank (which is my end goal). I don't think it's going to be possible to afford the dual spec thing (once you get to 20 or so all items in the auction house just stop selling). How does prot perform as a solo grinding/questing spec in outlands? I'm not real big on mass AOE grinding so does it do ok on lower pull counts? I am not expecting RET like performance but is it just completely not efficient to do that using prot?

    These days I personally wouldn't go prot for levelling until you get the shield slam, which I think is 75. However, if you're not impatient it's still not that bad. Ret is waaaaaaaay faster, but if you like the Prot style and don't care, more power to you.

    My wife and I levelled out characters originally in TBC as me(Prot Paladin), and her(Holy Paladin), and it was slow as dirt but we didn't care, we just had fun. I did 70 to 80 as Ret just because it was far faster, and I wanted to just hit 80 and use all the new rad tanking tools they gave me all at once.

    Joshmvii on
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    NamonNamon Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I personally don't care to use prot for leveling. I'm just worried because I do want to tank in instances and I've heard at 60 people start really howling at you if you are ret. I mean if push comes to shove I will not do instances and just solo until I have the money for dual spec it's just as of now at level 40 i'm doing instances to upgrade my gear.

    Namon on
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    fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Namon wrote: »
    (once you get to 20 or so all items in the auction house just stop selling).
    say what

    forty on
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    NamonNamon Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    It may just be my server. I was selling well up until then. Now items with reqs above twenty or so are just not moving... at all. If I put up ten pieces maybe 1 sells and I'm talking 1 or 2 gold a piece here. I am also selling enchanting mats and again when i get past the lower level stuff stuff just does not move. I usd to be able to make mad cash using tailoring to produce greens (from farming cloth) then disenchanting for a profit. Now not so much but I'm so far in at this point I don't want to abandon either of them now.

    Namon on
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    fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    There's a window in those middle Azeroth levels where materials are worth less, but once you start getting mats at around 50+, the value should go up dramatically again.

    forty on
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    korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Touched by the Light. Necessary Prot tanking talent, or something pretty optional? I've been seeing a lot of tanks around lately without it.

    korodullin on
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    NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    korodullin wrote: »
    Touched by the Light. Necessary Prot tanking talent, or something pretty optional? I've been seeing a lot of tanks around lately without it.

    Wait what?

    Where have you been seeing them, and have they actually been holding threat?

    Nobody on
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    NambkabNambkab Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I can think of no viable reason for not picking touched by the light.

    Nambkab on
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    JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    korodullin wrote: »
    Touched by the Light. Necessary Prot tanking talent, or something pretty optional? I've been seeing a lot of tanks around lately without it.

    Absolutely necessary tanking talent.

    Joshmvii on
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    NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I checked maintankadin to see if people have been reporting it, and the only report I saw of a prot pally dropping points out of it was in discussion of a goofy LK25HM build that maximizes the number of cooldowns by sacrificing threat generation talents.

    Nobody on
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    DisruptorX2DisruptorX2 Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Question about pvp prot weapons. The 1800 rating weapons have high dps, good defensive stats, and whatnot, but a shitload of AP, which is completely worthless. They are also super slow. In anyone who's experienced in the subject's opinion, are they worth going for? For use only in pvp, obviousy. My current weapon is from naxx 10.

    DisruptorX2 on
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    korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Nobody wrote: »
    korodullin wrote: »
    Touched by the Light. Necessary Prot tanking talent, or something pretty optional? I've been seeing a lot of tanks around lately without it.

    Wait what?

    Where have you been seeing them, and have they actually been holding threat?

    One of my guild's tank Paladins (this gibbering retard) doesn't have it, and when I called him on it, he was all "Well uh I made my spec based on inspecting a lot of ICC tanking Pallies on our realm and none of them have it." So I decided to check the validity of that assertion.

    I can't verify whether or not he holds threat (he claims he doesn't even need Holy Shield to hold threat, but I find it more likely that his DPS just don't go all-out to keep from ripping aggro), but I do know I can outdamage him on my Disc priest while healing.

    korodullin on
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    NaphtaliNaphtali Hazy + Flow SeaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    "I made my spec by inspecting silly gooses without stopping to make sure I was not a silly goose myself"

    Airtight plan.

    Naphtali on
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    korodullinkorodullin What. SCRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Sure enough, a cursory examination of Prot paladins around Dalaran shows a fair number without it. The mind boggles, I guess.

    korodullin on
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