Yeah, it being from Harry's perspective and Harry being a pent up sexually frustrated dude isn't enough of an excuse in my eyes.
It's not a dealbreaker; I still love the series and will continue buying the hardcovers on day one, but there is a little eye rolling going on at times.
That said, it does leave room for growth of the character. I'm not expecting it... but it could happen, and done over a couple of books I think it could work out well.
The series makes a point that supernatural beings can't change, but that mortal people change all the time.
This could be a good change.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I have to say, I was really getting annoyed with the treatment of Ascher's character.
Like, Butcher, can we have a single lady character that isn't stripped naked or otherwise oversexualized to some extent? Or spend a few lines pointing out how sexy Harry thinks she is every time he looks at her for the first half or so of the book? Sheesh.
Marcy, Andi, Cindy, Georgia (Female Alphas)
Elaine Mallory, Aurora, Lily, Meryl (Summer Knight)
Murphy (pretty much every book up till Ghost Story)
The Leanansidhe
Charity
You're such a fucking nerd, God.
A nerd with kids who was married to a romance novelist.
And no, that isn't because of the Winter Mantle, that's been ongoing the entire series.
I won't say that I think the women characters in the series can't take care of themselves as well as the men, but there's definitely a significant gap in how they're presented, and it's become more annoying as the series went on.
Like, first time Molly got involved in a case,
she had a magical god damn orgasm. Really, now. :P
I'll reiterate Harry, as narrator, doesn't describe anyone remotely human looking as bad looking, like... ever. Even when Mab is full queen of death look and Harry is scared witless he doesn't describe her as looking bad, but he definitely doesn't describe her as looking sexualized either. Even though he points out that Meryl is somewhat pug-faced and burly he doesn't describe her as bad looking, but tough. Harry describes people who are attempting to be sexually attractive as being sexually attractive, and yeah, it happens a lot in the books.
Jump over to Jim Butcher's other novels, there's a lot of horrid stuff that happens (particularly in the first Alera book), but the change in narrator from Harry Dresden to third person makes a noticeable change in how characters are described and the types of situations they encounter.
I think it has to do with the nature of his powers. The Naagloshi are all about fear treachery and evil (even going back to the original story of the yee naaldlooshii), so I don't think that they're even capable of an altruistic deed. However, it's implied that Grey is half-Naagloshi, so he may be capable of making a conscious choice about it, but his powers might be tied to the nature of his parentage. He may be capable of doing a good deed, but the nature of his parentage make it impossible for him to be altruistic about it. So in order to maintain the connection to his heritage he might have to ask for payment for doing a deed.
It was intentional on her part. Lasciel was telling her to ramp up the sexy the entire time to try and snag Dresden. Lasciel knew (saw a glance of, at least) how Dresden's mind worked and knew how to target him.
It was intentional on her part. Lasciel was telling her to ramp up the sexy the entire time to try and snag Dresden. Lasciel knew (saw a glance of, at least) how Dresden's mind worked and knew how to target him.
@Goatmon - that's an end of the book spoiler. Don't click on it until you're done.
I just like how he used some peoples perceptions against them. I disagree there's an issue and I liked how he used the status quo in a new way. She hardly came across as some rampaging slut or anything, none of them do minus being rampaging evil sluts, and then who cares. But to each their own, though.
Butcher does it differently in Codex Alera, but regardless:
It's ok to think someone is sexy
It's ok to dress sexy
It's ok to act sexy
It's ok to have sex, if everyone involved consents
It's NOT ok to be treated as if your only purpose is to be looked upon by others
It's NOT ok to be treated like you are an object
The character in question is good looking and confident about it. She's also amazingly skilled, is repeatedly shown being Dresden's peer (or superior!), and that's acknowledged by Dresden.
Murphy is a pretty lady and is presented differently.
Part of it is the style (noir), part of it is the character (Dresden), and part of it is that Dresden frequently finds himself around good looking creatures. But I don't generally think it's objectifying or debasing... except when it was meant to be.
Harry is sexist. Butcher is not. Harry's sexism constantly gets him into trouble. It blinds him to danger. It is used to manipulate him. It causes him to underestimate threats from women, and over estimate threats to women. In the novels we are shown time and time again that Harry's sexism is a detriment to him.
Butcher is showing sexism as bad. And this is good.
It's mostly the fact that he can't just assess "she was getting dressed, and I was reminded of how lonely I am" or something.
No, it's "she was exposing her amazing half-naked sensuality, revealing blah blah blah"
Like, dude, I get it. You need a good lay and you've got some pent up issues and that makes things complicated for you. I dig that.
But we don't need to have that driven home over and over in the same book.
Did you miss every introduction Thomas gets in the series? It isn't desirous, because Harry is the narrator, but from the descriptions his abs might be a minor character on it's own. Also, it's almost a running joke how he loses his shirt every chance he gets.
It's mostly the fact that he can't just assess "she was getting dressed, and I was reminded of how lonely I am" or something.
No, it's "she was exposing her amazing half-naked sensuality, revealing blah blah blah"
Like, dude, I get it. You need a good lay and you've got some pent up issues and that makes things complicated for you. I dig that.
But we don't need to have that driven home over and over in the same book.
Did you miss every introduction Thomas gets in the series? It isn't desirous, because Harry is the narrator, but from the descriptions his abs might be a minor character on it's own. Also, it's almost a running joke how he loses his shirt every chance he gets.
Or when Harry catches Murphy staring at him and she just goes, "What? He's pretty."
It's mostly the fact that he can't just assess "she was getting dressed, and I was reminded of how lonely I am" or something.
No, it's "she was exposing her amazing half-naked sensuality, revealing blah blah blah"
Like, dude, I get it. You need a good lay and you've got some pent up issues and that makes things complicated for you. I dig that.
But we don't need to have that driven home over and over in the same book.
Did you miss every introduction Thomas gets in the series? It isn't desirous, because Harry is the narrator, but from the descriptions his abs might be a minor character on it's own. Also, it's almost a running joke how he loses his shirt every chance he gets.
This just in: Stephen Amell to play Thomas in new Dresden Files television series. Conservatives decry casting decision as part of Homosexual Agenda to turn straight men gay. Claim they will DVR it for "research"
If they can find a professional swimmer who can act, they've got the perfect person. Plus they peak around 25-30, so there should be plenty of them without long term jobs.
Harry is sexist. Butcher is not. Harry's sexism constantly gets him into trouble. It blinds him to danger. It is used to manipulate him. It causes him to underestimate threats from women, and over estimate threats to women. In the novels we are shown time and time again that Harry's sexism is a detriment to him.
Butcher is showing sexism as bad. And this is good.
It's not just Harry.
And even if it WAS just Harry, that's merely the excuse Butcher uses to continuously put in dumb stuff in the series.
For example: Stuff like Molly having a magical orgasm her first time on the job isn't the result of Harry's sexism. It's the result of the writer wanting an excuse to pen it in.
Regarding names, pulling stuff from a thing that Jim said that was posted on his site:
Harry's Name is different than most names, because whereas with most things having their Name lets you make them your bitch, conjuring by Harry's name is apparently done at great peril - it's more dangerous for the one doing the Naming than it is for Harry.
So, that's interesting.
Anyone reading Warcry?
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
Sure that's not just a riff on something Harry said in book 1 (pretty sure it was book1)?
It was and it's a good line.
"My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Conjure by it at your own risk. When things get strange, when what goes bump in the night flicks on the lights, when no one else can help you, give me a call. I'm in the book."
Sure that's not just a riff on something Harry said in book 1 (pretty sure it was book1)?
It was and it's a good line.
"My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Conjure by it at your own risk. When things get strange, when what goes bump in the night flicks on the lights, when no one else can help you, give me a call. I'm in the book."
But when you think about what happens with it if you try to conjure by it, it seems like a poor life decision.
If you can use it to subdue Dresden himself (and the mere act of subduing him might change his Name due to how mortals work) then you have to worry about the wrath of all those who stand with him.
Also, if Leanansidhe hasn't had to deal with some uppity folks who have tried it throughout the years, I'd be surprised.
I don't think anyone in-universe outside of things that don't need it to squish him know his name. I don't think knowing it is the same as Knowing it.
yea, it's explicitly said that you have to know how a mortal says their own names in their head to be able to actually use it against the person. Everyone adds their own unique inflections and meaning to their own names. That's why Harry telling one of his names to that demon he summoned in an early book was such a big deal. The name was from Harry's own lips so it had much more power than just knowing the name in general. After all these years though that name he gave the demon probably wouldn't work nearly as well because of how Harry has grown and changed as a person.
It's also possible the demon was just playing a long con on the off chance it would work, since he lost nothing by trying. Which is a typical demon MO, they have time. I suspect at this point it's just that and a dead plot point, but of course anything can happen.
Sure that's not just a riff on something Harry said in book 1 (pretty sure it was book1)?
That was mentioned by Jim, in the quote I can't find atm, but was in response to why Harry threw his full Name at an Outsider in Cold Days. Jim both hinted that Harry using his own Name like that wasn't entirely Harry's own descision, and that it wasn't nearly as reckless as it appeared.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
Sure that's not just a riff on something Harry said in book 1 (pretty sure it was book1)?
It was and it's a good line.
"My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Conjure by it at your own risk. When things get strange, when what goes bump in the night flicks on the lights, when no one else can help you, give me a call. I'm in the book."
But when you think about what happens with it if you try to conjure by it, it seems like a poor life decision.
If you can use it to subdue Dresden himself (and the mere act of subduing him might change his Name due to how mortals work) then you have to worry about the wrath of all those who stand with him.
Also, if Leanansidhe hasn't had to deal with some uppity folks who have tried it throughout the years, I'd be surprised.
The point of the line is that it's from a Harry who's narrating the books after the fact. He's post-apocalypse Harry Dresden. Even at this point in the books I don't think there are a lot of supernatural entities in the mortal world who would willingly go toe to toe against him or try to draw his attention.
Harry is sexist. Butcher is not. Harry's sexism constantly gets him into trouble. It blinds him to danger. It is used to manipulate him. It causes him to underestimate threats from women, and over estimate threats to women. In the novels we are shown time and time again that Harry's sexism is a detriment to him.
Butcher is showing sexism as bad. And this is good.
It's not just Harry.
And even if it WAS just Harry, that's merely the excuse Butcher uses to continuously put in dumb stuff in the series.
For example: Stuff like Molly having a magical orgasm her first time on the job isn't the result of Harry's sexism. It's the result of the writer wanting an excuse to pen it in.
I asked this before, but: you're all reading War Cry, right?
The Shoggoth in the basement made me squee a bit.
War Cry?
Also, I'll forgive the Molly thing because Harry warning her about the horrors she was about to experience, realizing what she ACTUALLY got, and whining about it being so unfair was hilarious.
Posts
It's not a dealbreaker; I still love the series and will continue buying the hardcovers on day one, but there is a little eye rolling going on at times.
That said, it does leave room for growth of the character. I'm not expecting it... but it could happen, and done over a couple of books I think it could work out well.
The series makes a point that supernatural beings can't change, but that mortal people change all the time.
This could be a good change.
Elaine Mallory, Aurora, Lily, Meryl (Summer Knight)
Murphy (pretty much every book up till Ghost Story)
The Leanansidhe
Charity A nerd with kids who was married to a romance novelist.
I'll reiterate Harry, as narrator, doesn't describe anyone remotely human looking as bad looking, like... ever. Even when Mab is full queen of death look and Harry is scared witless he doesn't describe her as looking bad, but he definitely doesn't describe her as looking sexualized either. Even though he points out that Meryl is somewhat pug-faced and burly he doesn't describe her as bad looking, but tough. Harry describes people who are attempting to be sexually attractive as being sexually attractive, and yeah, it happens a lot in the books.
Jump over to Jim Butcher's other novels, there's a lot of horrid stuff that happens (particularly in the first Alera book), but the change in narrator from Harry Dresden to third person makes a noticeable change in how characters are described and the types of situations they encounter.
Mines a bit similar to @Elvenshae
@Goatmon - that's an end of the book spoiler. Don't click on it until you're done.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
And yeah, (endish of book spoilers)
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
You're not really getting the point.
An author can come up with whatever reasons they want to justify what they put into their books.
That doesn't mean it was necessary to put it in, in the first place.
Like
crazy thought
Maybe just don't put in a character that has some reason to oversexualize herself in order to achieve her goals.
No, it's "she was exposing her amazing half-naked sensuality, revealing blah blah blah"
Like, dude, I get it. You need a good lay and you've got some pent up issues and that makes things complicated for you. I dig that.
But we don't need to have that driven home over and over in the same book.
Are you talking about Dresden or Butcher?
It's ok to think someone is sexy
It's ok to dress sexy
It's ok to act sexy
It's ok to have sex, if everyone involved consents
It's NOT ok to be treated as if your only purpose is to be looked upon by others
It's NOT ok to be treated like you are an object
The character in question is good looking and confident about it. She's also amazingly skilled, is repeatedly shown being Dresden's peer (or superior!), and that's acknowledged by Dresden.
Murphy is a pretty lady and is presented differently.
Part of it is the style (noir), part of it is the character (Dresden), and part of it is that Dresden frequently finds himself around good looking creatures. But I don't generally think it's objectifying or debasing... except when it was meant to be.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Butcher is showing sexism as bad. And this is good.
Did you miss every introduction Thomas gets in the series? It isn't desirous, because Harry is the narrator, but from the descriptions his abs might be a minor character on it's own. Also, it's almost a running joke how he loses his shirt every chance he gets.
Or when Harry catches Murphy staring at him and she just goes, "What? He's pretty."
This just in: Stephen Amell to play Thomas in new Dresden Files television series. Conservatives decry casting decision as part of Homosexual Agenda to turn straight men gay. Claim they will DVR it for "research"
It's not just Harry.
And even if it WAS just Harry, that's merely the excuse Butcher uses to continuously put in dumb stuff in the series.
For example: Stuff like Molly having a magical orgasm her first time on the job isn't the result of Harry's sexism. It's the result of the writer wanting an excuse to pen it in.
Man, where's the next book. Only a year or 2 left...
Harry's Name is different than most names, because whereas with most things having their Name lets you make them your bitch, conjuring by Harry's name is apparently done at great peril - it's more dangerous for the one doing the Naming than it is for Harry.
So, that's interesting.
Anyone reading Warcry?
It was and it's a good line.
"My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Conjure by it at your own risk. When things get strange, when what goes bump in the night flicks on the lights, when no one else can help you, give me a call. I'm in the book."
But when you think about what happens with it if you try to conjure by it, it seems like a poor life decision.
If you can use it to subdue Dresden himself (and the mere act of subduing him might change his Name due to how mortals work) then you have to worry about the wrath of all those who stand with him.
Also, if Leanansidhe hasn't had to deal with some uppity folks who have tried it throughout the years, I'd be surprised.
yea, it's explicitly said that you have to know how a mortal says their own names in their head to be able to actually use it against the person. Everyone adds their own unique inflections and meaning to their own names. That's why Harry telling one of his names to that demon he summoned in an early book was such a big deal. The name was from Harry's own lips so it had much more power than just knowing the name in general. After all these years though that name he gave the demon probably wouldn't work nearly as well because of how Harry has grown and changed as a person.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Either the name is still powerful, or the demon got some use out of it before Harry shifted and we just don't know how yet. Probably both.
That was mentioned by Jim, in the quote I can't find atm, but was in response to why Harry threw his full Name at an Outsider in Cold Days. Jim both hinted that Harry using his own Name like that wasn't entirely Harry's own descision, and that it wasn't nearly as reckless as it appeared.
The point of the line is that it's from a Harry who's narrating the books after the fact. He's post-apocalypse Harry Dresden. Even at this point in the books I don't think there are a lot of supernatural entities in the mortal world who would willingly go toe to toe against him or try to draw his attention.
See: Red Court party and the dragon encounter
I asked this before, but: you're all reading War Cry, right?
Michael Bay wants to film this scene so badly.
War Cry?
Also, I'll forgive the Molly thing because Harry warning her about the horrors she was about to experience, realizing what she ACTUALLY got, and whining about it being so unfair was hilarious.
Set four months after Dead Beat.
Harry, Yoshimo, Wild Bill, and a certain devilishly handsome and dashing Warden try to hold out from dusk to dawn against a Red Court army.
Also, in the basement, there's a