No I read...tracing over exactly and decide which lines to keep isn't really practice. It doesn't teach you anything. YOU don't listen.
you don't get to come in here like your shit don't stink..get called out for it, then get to defend yourself.
Half your panels are like this. Just because you can justify it to yourself doesn't make it right. If you have the attitude that you're amazing, and you have a "process" (i call it stealing) AND THAT YOU'RE STICKING TO IT. Then why did you come here? To Impress us with half assed stuff?
have some humility, and learn from people here. I am not even claiming i'm great, but there are AMAZING artists here, Iruka, nightdragon, Dmac, tam. wak, just to name some off the top of my head. Ask them if you think i'm lying to you.
Its already known that its the same pencils, youve obviously never used a brush. or other wise your would know that brush work takes dexterity. Inking comic books is a skill in itself and I was practicing line weights.
do you know what line weights are?
I dont even feel like explaining this to you.
I'm not really much of a visual artist, so I can't really get on your case here, but I believe what these guys are saying is it'd be nice if the line practice you were doing were that of your own original work. It gives them a much better idea of where you are in terms of overall skill level.
I am going to assume, with a join date of yesterday, that you haven't done much lurking around here. Head to some of the other threads and check them out. Everyone goes through this process. We all post our shit, get broken down to the core of the issues with said shit, then take steps to improve upon them.
Line weight and control is a very important part of comics, but you sorta have to have a defined style and quality of drawing before that really becomes relevant...and you just haven't posted many examples of that yet.
I have read through every word of this thread, and I'm really holding myself back from being a complete asshole to you right now, because that's what it seems you are in a lot of ways. I don't have any personal beef with you whatsoever, but I am going to say that you have just as much work to do on your attitude and ego as you do with your art. Suck it up and start over. If you try, people will notice and try to help.
EDIT: Okay, how the hell were amens made between the time I clicked "reply" and posted my comment. You guys.
Can you post your references? Post some of your pastel work with Vilas Tonape as well please.
Although, this doesn't make me very confident. I understand inking practice, because inking in the comic industry is pretty much just tracing. But the following? Referencing is all well and good, but merely referencing this was not. Its not QUITE copying, but its almost there. And you need to stop.
i want everyone in this thread to calm down or infractions will be handed out.
Zerg: I understand your frustration with the situation but reel it in. Also the AC is not a place to slap your "i can draw better than you" dick around, no matter how tempting it can be, or how many times people bait you into it.
Just ignore him, he's only going to hurt himself by not taking advice, so don't worry about it so much!
Eddieble: I completely agree that inking is a form of art in and of itself, though next time be sure to mention that you are doing an inking practice and post a link to the pencil artist's work
you don't see pro inkers posting their work and not giving due credit to the penciller, it is bad practice.
If you're reffing another artists' work, post about that, leaving it out is just disrespectful to the artist who's work you used.
Also, we expect people to have a willingness to learn if they want to stick around here. Many of our forumers are professional artists who do this for a living. Saying you were second best to your teacher in art class also means absolutely nothing. I was in a first year university drawing class with people who were high school teachers training to be certified as art instructors. they were terrible. Maybe you have a profoundly good art teacher, none of us will ever know, we're not here to judge that. we're here to give you crits on how to improve your work. This is not a place to get asspats, so if that's what you're looking for, i'm afraid you've come to the wrong place, however if you want open discussion and crits on how to improve, then that's awesome, and we'll be happy to have you around.
Skimming over this thread, I have to say it would probably have been a lot more productive if everyone had left their e-rage and hysterics and gang-high-fiving instincts at the door.
The points being espoused certainly aren't wrong, but- let's put it this way, if a doctor prescribes you medicine, do you prefer him to let you take the medicine yourself after explaining what it does, or do you prefer him to explain it while he's shoving his whole hand down your throat to make sure it gets in there?
EDIT: Agh beavo beat me and said it better anyway.
He did say it was inking practice so I'm not sure why people jumped on him for that.
As for his other, I think Eddie isn't exactly copying or tracing but he almost is. For example, my previous post (which I hope didn't come off as part of the e-rage) with Joe Madeuria's page and then Eddie's page - the arms are very close but not QUITE the same. I don't think he understands the difference between reference and what hes doing.
Eddie:
The point of visual reference is so you better understand whats going on. For example, if I wanted to draw an arm like that, I would figure out how an actual arm looks when extended back like that. Any style changes, any exaggerations, and any proportional changes would look a lot better based on knowledge of how that arm works. Looking at Mad's work is fine, but without the knowledge of how the arm works, you aren't able to interpret what he did correctly. You have put down similar shapes... but they don't support the same structure as an actual arm bent like that.
Or this piece:
It very quickly shows that you didn't quite know what you were doing here. You actually have the arms on backwards and the elbows are pointing forward. Knowledge of the human figure will QUICKLY help you see things like this. Joe Mad didn't magically make the shapes he did. They are interpretations of the actual human body, and if you do that as well, its going to make your work all more professional.
NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
What i think you are reading as the elbow is supposed to be the forearm muscle, but you're still correct.
That is what i mean by you have to learn the rules before you break them. Most comic artist will tell you learning anatomy from comics or anime is not a good idea, because its a stylization of reality. Once you know how it all works, then you bring your takes on it and thats how you develop a "style". There's a difference between having style, and being good at copying other styles.
He did say it was inking practice so I'm not sure why people jumped on him for that.
As for his other, I think Eddie isn't exactly copying or tracing but he almost is. For example, my previous post (which I hope didn't come off as part of the e-rage) with Joe Madeuria's page and then Eddie's page - the arms are very close but not QUITE the same. I don't think he understands the difference between reference and what hes doing.
Eddie:
The point of visual reference is so you better understand whats going on. For example, if I wanted to draw an arm like that, I would figure out how an actual arm looks when extended back like that. Any style changes, any exaggerations, and any proportional changes would look a lot better based on knowledge of how that arm works. Looking at Mad's work is fine, but without the knowledge of how the arm works, you aren't able to interpret what he did correctly. You have put down similar shapes... but they don't support the same structure as an actual arm bent like that.
Or this piece:
It very quickly shows that you didn't quite know what you were doing here. You actually have the arms on backwards and the elbows are pointing forward. Knowledge of the human figure will QUICKLY help you see things like this. Joe Mad didn't magically make the shapes he did. They are interpretations of the actual human body, and if you do that as well, its going to make your work all more professional.
What?
Could you explain better, are you talking about the first pannel or the last?
They're very cuboidal apples. I guess the fact they are green is helpful for us to decode them.
This thread reminds me how much I miss Joe Mad's stuff, he was the main reason I bought X-Men comics in the 90s. After he stopped doing them I had no idea what he started doing, and I stopped buying comics completely.
You should have put some highlights on the apples, though.
I think those apples are pretty good. I like the blocky stylised look to them. Add a few high contrast lighter areas and it'll rock
EDIT. maybe bring a few purples/yellows into is as well, particularly the shadows.
winter_combat_knight on
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
Haha, nice apples! Now, this is interesting.
If I had through about It I would have done a google search for a reference.
Instead I rustled through the strange and fermenting things in my fridge and found... an Onion!
Pencil:
Digital color:
I haven't actually worked on a "live" subject before. It's a lot harder than I thought!
eddie: don't take it as negativity.
while some people really jumped on you, the goal of this site is not to put people down about their work, I don't want you to get that impression. It's to point out to people what they could improve upon to make their work better.
I'm a professional working artist and I still love getting feedback from the people around here. It's important to get other people's impressions about your work, it helps you grow. Artists never stop learning. I'm currently at the illustration academy learning from some of illustration's top people, Anita Kunz, John and Mark English, Brent Watkinson, George Pratt, Andrew Jones, Jason Manley, Gary Kelly... to name a few. They are the top of their game, each one has earned countless awards and accolades in the field of illustration. And each one stresses that you never stop learning from your peers and those around you.
So if these people are not above taking advice from their peers and even those who aren't quite at their skill level, than you should not be above it.
It's the single only way to get better as an artist. No one can do it themselves. Trust me, I've been teaching myself for about 12 years now, and I've made it pretty far, but I would not be here if it weren't for the advice of people on this very forum and others like it.
It's not the triceps that are making it appear backwards, it's the fact that the way you've drawn it makes it look like you can see the whole elbow from the front.
eddie: don't take it as negativity.
while some people really jumped on you, the goal of this site is not to put people down about their work, I don't want you to get that impression. It's to point out to people what they could improve upon to make their work better.
I'm a professional working artist and I still love getting feedback from the people around here. It's important to get other people's impressions about your work, it helps you grow. Artists never stop learning. I'm currently at the illustration academy learning from some of illustration's top people, Anita Kunz, John and Mark English, Brent Watkinson, George Pratt, Andrew Jones, Jason Manley, Gary Kelly... to name a few. They are the top of their game, each one has earned countless awards and accolades in the field of illustration. And each one stresses that you never stop learning from your peers and those around you.
So if these people are not above taking advice from their peers and even those who aren't quite at their skill level, than you should not be above it.
It's the single only way to get better as an artist. No one can do it themselves. Trust me, I've been teaching myself for about 12 years now, and I've made it pretty far, but I would not be here if it weren't for the advice of people on this very forum and others like it.
It's not the triceps that are making it appear backwards, it's the fact that the way you've drawn it makes it look like you can see the whole elbow from the front.
EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
By itself it wouldn't look that out of place, but with the thrust-forward shoulders it kinds looks like he has goat limbs or something (bending backwards).
Which, now that I think of it, would be a cool thing to have as a super hero.
Dude. Attempt to put your elbows in the same position in which you've drawn them on that man.
That's a very uncomfortable and unnatural position to have your arms in, first of all. And secondly, when you turn your arms that way, your thumbs are pointed to the outside of your body rather than the inside. (unless you then proceed to turn them in an equally uncomfortable direction)
NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
Those apples are the best thing you did. But again it was reference. I have no way of knowing if you printed it and lightboxed it and filled it in. I'm not saying you did I'm just saying drawing from LIFE is so important. Seeing objects in 3d is totally different than 2d.
EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
I see what you are going for, it just dosen't look the way it should. Your shoulders are too low and forward. The way you've designed your flexor tendons here make them look like something jutting out rather than the plane that connects the forearm to the biceps. What we are seeing is what we interpret as an elbow rather than what you are trying to convey.
Take a look at the shoulders and the elbow joint here.
Now the same here.
In the image we're going over above, your arms came across as looking like the second more than the first, making him seem awkward. While the heroic proportions are always going to look different from basic anatomy, it dosen't change the fact it looks off. Take a look at your other art you posted:
Your forward facing guy looks more like the guy on the bottom with his head and legs on backwards.
When someone's standing with their legs unevenly splayed like that their hips won't be level like you've drawn them. the hip of the most vertical leg (the one on the viewers right) should be higher because his weight's resting on it.
Your work resembles Joe Mad's. Ok. So thats established. I don't even think you would argue that point. What do you think you are going to get out of the comic industry? I won't say you won't get work - plenty of derivative artists do. But if you get hired to do something, it would be as a poor man's Mad. It would be because they want to get Mad, but don't want to pay him to do what he does. It won't really be on your own merits. Is that something you really desire?
Its not something I would want, and I'm not sure why anyone would want it. Thats why life drawing would help - with that extra grounding of knowledge, you would be able to branch off towards your own thing and maybe make a space for yourself artistically.
Comic books are sort of extrapolated anatomy. Without a deeper knowledge of whats really going on, you are going to make uninformed mistakes when trying to stylize things, or when copying other people stylization of things.
Inking isn't just about skill and dexterity with a brush (though don't get me wrong, that is part of it and there is no reason for people to get on you about practicing it.) But you also need to be able to make really good decisions about line weight and shadows. You are copying the already done inks of other people, which is far different than transforming vague pencils into completely inked images.
Where are you taking art classes? Have you done any life drawing? I'd recommend a couple of anatomy books: The Atlas of human anatomy and anatomy for the artist for instance. The later has photo reference and muscle overlays so you can get a good concrete idea of the realism of whats going on before you start going crazy with comic exaggeration. Reference is awesome, but I think when it comes to comic art, people get misguided as to what it means. Using reference is not strait up copying (that's more for studying) and "constructing things in your head" doesn't mean you cant look at any pictures or your not a good artist. Ideally you want to be able to interpret references, meaning you look at subjects and combine, change, use artistic licenses, turn, squash, stretch, all while retaining a certain amount of control and believability. This is important for all levels of comic making, from inking to coloring.
My advice would be to step away from the comic book references and expand your horizons for human anatomy.
Posts
I'm not really much of a visual artist, so I can't really get on your case here, but I believe what these guys are saying is it'd be nice if the line practice you were doing were that of your own original work. It gives them a much better idea of where you are in terms of overall skill level.
I am going to assume, with a join date of yesterday, that you haven't done much lurking around here. Head to some of the other threads and check them out. Everyone goes through this process. We all post our shit, get broken down to the core of the issues with said shit, then take steps to improve upon them.
Line weight and control is a very important part of comics, but you sorta have to have a defined style and quality of drawing before that really becomes relevant...and you just haven't posted many examples of that yet.
I have read through every word of this thread, and I'm really holding myself back from being a complete asshole to you right now, because that's what it seems you are in a lot of ways. I don't have any personal beef with you whatsoever, but I am going to say that you have just as much work to do on your attitude and ego as you do with your art. Suck it up and start over. If you try, people will notice and try to help.
EDIT: Okay, how the hell were amens made between the time I clicked "reply" and posted my comment. You guys.
Although, this doesn't make me very confident. I understand inking practice, because inking in the comic industry is pretty much just tracing. But the following? Referencing is all well and good, but merely referencing this was not. Its not QUITE copying, but its almost there. And you need to stop.
"Shut up bitch, you just wait for my apples to rock your socks off! You ain't the po-lice!
What the fuck is going on in here.
Bitch be trippin' fruit, yo.
Zerg: I understand your frustration with the situation but reel it in. Also the AC is not a place to slap your "i can draw better than you" dick around, no matter how tempting it can be, or how many times people bait you into it.
Just ignore him, he's only going to hurt himself by not taking advice, so don't worry about it so much!
Eddieble: I completely agree that inking is a form of art in and of itself, though next time be sure to mention that you are doing an inking practice and post a link to the pencil artist's work
you don't see pro inkers posting their work and not giving due credit to the penciller, it is bad practice.
If you're reffing another artists' work, post about that, leaving it out is just disrespectful to the artist who's work you used.
Also, we expect people to have a willingness to learn if they want to stick around here. Many of our forumers are professional artists who do this for a living. Saying you were second best to your teacher in art class also means absolutely nothing. I was in a first year university drawing class with people who were high school teachers training to be certified as art instructors. they were terrible. Maybe you have a profoundly good art teacher, none of us will ever know, we're not here to judge that. we're here to give you crits on how to improve your work. This is not a place to get asspats, so if that's what you're looking for, i'm afraid you've come to the wrong place, however if you want open discussion and crits on how to improve, then that's awesome, and we'll be happy to have you around.
The points being espoused certainly aren't wrong, but- let's put it this way, if a doctor prescribes you medicine, do you prefer him to let you take the medicine yourself after explaining what it does, or do you prefer him to explain it while he's shoving his whole hand down your throat to make sure it gets in there?
EDIT: Agh beavo beat me and said it better anyway.
Twitter
everyone calm down.
As for his other, I think Eddie isn't exactly copying or tracing but he almost is. For example, my previous post (which I hope didn't come off as part of the e-rage) with Joe Madeuria's page and then Eddie's page - the arms are very close but not QUITE the same. I don't think he understands the difference between reference and what hes doing.
Eddie:
The point of visual reference is so you better understand whats going on. For example, if I wanted to draw an arm like that, I would figure out how an actual arm looks when extended back like that. Any style changes, any exaggerations, and any proportional changes would look a lot better based on knowledge of how that arm works. Looking at Mad's work is fine, but without the knowledge of how the arm works, you aren't able to interpret what he did correctly. You have put down similar shapes... but they don't support the same structure as an actual arm bent like that.
Or this piece:
It very quickly shows that you didn't quite know what you were doing here. You actually have the arms on backwards and the elbows are pointing forward. Knowledge of the human figure will QUICKLY help you see things like this. Joe Mad didn't magically make the shapes he did. They are interpretations of the actual human body, and if you do that as well, its going to make your work all more professional.
That is what i mean by you have to learn the rules before you break them. Most comic artist will tell you learning anatomy from comics or anime is not a good idea, because its a stylization of reality. Once you know how it all works, then you bring your takes on it and thats how you develop a "style". There's a difference between having style, and being good at copying other styles.
INSTAGRAM
What?
Could you explain better, are you talking about the first pannel or the last?
http://eddieble.deviantart.com/
Are you saying the tricepts are you the front? I just dont see it. on another note.
How bout dem apples hmmm?
I think I fell in love with this site; I thrive on negativity. I guess i feel more challenged that way.
No 2 pencil, mechanical pencil, blending stump, perm marker, photoshop. God I love photoshop.
http://eddieble.deviantart.com/
This thread reminds me how much I miss Joe Mad's stuff, he was the main reason I bought X-Men comics in the 90s. After he stopped doing them I had no idea what he started doing, and I stopped buying comics completely.
You should have put some highlights on the apples, though.
EDIT. maybe bring a few purples/yellows into is as well, particularly the shadows.
If I had through about It I would have done a google search for a reference.
Instead I rustled through the strange and fermenting things in my fridge and found... an Onion!
Pencil:
Digital color:
I haven't actually worked on a "live" subject before. It's a lot harder than I thought!
while some people really jumped on you, the goal of this site is not to put people down about their work, I don't want you to get that impression. It's to point out to people what they could improve upon to make their work better.
I'm a professional working artist and I still love getting feedback from the people around here. It's important to get other people's impressions about your work, it helps you grow. Artists never stop learning. I'm currently at the illustration academy learning from some of illustration's top people, Anita Kunz, John and Mark English, Brent Watkinson, George Pratt, Andrew Jones, Jason Manley, Gary Kelly... to name a few. They are the top of their game, each one has earned countless awards and accolades in the field of illustration. And each one stresses that you never stop learning from your peers and those around you.
So if these people are not above taking advice from their peers and even those who aren't quite at their skill level, than you should not be above it.
It's the single only way to get better as an artist. No one can do it themselves. Trust me, I've been teaching myself for about 12 years now, and I've made it pretty far, but I would not be here if it weren't for the advice of people on this very forum and others like it.
It's not the triceps that are making it appear backwards, it's the fact that the way you've drawn it makes it look like you can see the whole elbow from the front.
Beavo has the right of it again.
http://eddieble.deviantart.com/
http://eddieble.deviantart.com/
Which, now that I think of it, would be a cool thing to have as a super hero.
Well, that pointy thing looks like bent elbows.
That's a very uncomfortable and unnatural position to have your arms in, first of all. And secondly, when you turn your arms that way, your thumbs are pointed to the outside of your body rather than the inside. (unless you then proceed to turn them in an equally uncomfortable direction)
Just try it.
http://eddieble.deviantart.com/
if so then its a clarity issue, which is till my fault as an artist.
BTW I referenced joe mad wile I whipped this up because I have no skill and copy everything.
http://eddieble.deviantart.com/
I see where you getting getting at, but it doesnt look like the arrows pointing at his elbow, which makes me belive your misunderstanding somthing.
http://eddieble.deviantart.com/
Take a look at the shoulders and the elbow joint here.
Now the same here.
In the image we're going over above, your arms came across as looking like the second more than the first, making him seem awkward. While the heroic proportions are always going to look different from basic anatomy, it dosen't change the fact it looks off. Take a look at your other art you posted:
Your forward facing guy looks more like the guy on the bottom with his head and legs on backwards.
When someone's standing with their legs unevenly splayed like that their hips won't be level like you've drawn them. the hip of the most vertical leg (the one on the viewers right) should be higher because his weight's resting on it.
The green portion is what is reading as an elbow. It makes the entire arm twist around so it looks like its on backwards.
Remember, no matter how intentional it is, if everyone reads it as a mistake, then it IS a mistake.
Your work resembles Joe Mad's. Ok. So thats established. I don't even think you would argue that point. What do you think you are going to get out of the comic industry? I won't say you won't get work - plenty of derivative artists do. But if you get hired to do something, it would be as a poor man's Mad. It would be because they want to get Mad, but don't want to pay him to do what he does. It won't really be on your own merits. Is that something you really desire?
Its not something I would want, and I'm not sure why anyone would want it. Thats why life drawing would help - with that extra grounding of knowledge, you would be able to branch off towards your own thing and maybe make a space for yourself artistically.
Inking isn't just about skill and dexterity with a brush (though don't get me wrong, that is part of it and there is no reason for people to get on you about practicing it.) But you also need to be able to make really good decisions about line weight and shadows. You are copying the already done inks of other people, which is far different than transforming vague pencils into completely inked images.
Where are you taking art classes? Have you done any life drawing? I'd recommend a couple of anatomy books: The Atlas of human anatomy and anatomy for the artist for instance. The later has photo reference and muscle overlays so you can get a good concrete idea of the realism of whats going on before you start going crazy with comic exaggeration. Reference is awesome, but I think when it comes to comic art, people get misguided as to what it means. Using reference is not strait up copying (that's more for studying) and "constructing things in your head" doesn't mean you cant look at any pictures or your not a good artist. Ideally you want to be able to interpret references, meaning you look at subjects and combine, change, use artistic licenses, turn, squash, stretch, all while retaining a certain amount of control and believability. This is important for all levels of comic making, from inking to coloring.
My advice would be to step away from the comic book references and expand your horizons for human anatomy.