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  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    i could be a bitch and list all of the rts' that involve more micro than sc2

    but i'm not a bitch

    just believe me, the list is much long

    undeinPirat on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] steam: undeinpirat
  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Well... SC2 does have a lot of micro, it's true. The thing is it just also happens to have a lot of macro, and you (me) with your (my) 50apm can't really handle it all so we have to choose which to focus on, and for most of the game that should be macro.

    TheStig on
    bnet: TheStig#1787 Steam: TheStig
  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    give me a list so I can go play some of them

    Variable on
    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
  • Bruce ForsythBruce Forsyth Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Can you make a list of RTS' that have a good mix of macro and micro like starcraft? Instead of the extremes of DoW2 and Supreme Commander?

    Bruce Forsyth on
  • DangeriskDangerisk Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    i could be a bitch and list all of the rts' that involve more micro than sc2

    but i'm not a bitch

    just believe me, the list is much long

    And the list begins with SC1.

    Regardless, who really cares cause none of those games on your list are better than SC1/SC2 :P

    Dangerisk on
    If what you say is true, the Shaolin and the Wu-Tang could be DANGERISK.
  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    if you want more micro go play DoW2 for something modern

    and to gnome, there aren't that many rts games that balance micro and macro like starcraft

    undeinPirat on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] steam: undeinpirat
  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Man, if you want micro only RTS, play some Myth 1 and 2. That game is the best.

    TheStig on
    bnet: TheStig#1787 Steam: TheStig
  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    if you want more micro go play DoW2 for something modern

    and to gnome, there aren't that many rts games that balance micro and macro like starcraft

    According to Steam, I put like, 300 hours into DoW2, and I got pretty decent at the game (although that's excluding CR, that's counted as separate). Seeing the footage of SC2 I genuinely wouldn't consider it to be more micro intensive than SC2, but then like I said, I haven't played it yet.

    subedii on
  • FuriousJodoFuriousJodo Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    They really need to bring back the Myth series. Awesome games all around. :\ Even the 3rd one wasn't all that terrible (but not nearly as good as the Bungie ones)

    DoW2 is all Micro, and you CAN micro a lot in SC2, but unless your macro game is on you will be losing.

    No matter how awesome you are at using one stalker to kite your opponents marines or something, it doesn't matter if he has 15 marines and you've wasted all of your time to save one stalker.

    FuriousJodo on
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  • Bruce ForsythBruce Forsyth Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    if you want more micro go play DoW2 for something modern

    and to gnome, there aren't that many rts games that balance micro and macro like starcraft

    Yeah :(. Starcraft 1 was pretty popular, but for some reason there weren't a lot of copy cats. They all had to be unique snowflakes.

    Bruce Forsyth on
  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    subedii wrote: »
    if you want more micro go play DoW2 for something modern

    and to gnome, there aren't that many rts games that balance micro and macro like starcraft

    According to Steam, I put like, 300 hours into DoW2 and got pretty decent at the game (although that's excluding CR, that's counted as separate). Seeing the footage of SC2 I genuinely wouldn't consider it to be more micro intensive than SC2, but then like I said, I haven't played it yet.

    a micro intensive game is something that has low unit counts where every unit counts

    unless you are at pretty high level sc2, most of the time you can just spend all of your resources, expand a shit ton, put your units in good positions, make the right units, and eventually just make one big push

    notable exception is very early game in sc2, but even that micro isn't that hard

    undeinPirat on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] steam: undeinpirat
  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    if you want more micro go play DoW2 for something modern

    and to gnome, there aren't that many rts games that balance micro and macro like starcraft

    Yeah :(. Starcraft 1 was pretty popular, but for some reason there weren't a lot of copy cats. They all had to be unique snowflakes.

    Well, how do you copy something that's sorta already a copy of everything that's out, only done a lot better with higher production values?

    TheStig on
    bnet: TheStig#1787 Steam: TheStig
  • DourinDourin Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I think what they're trying to say is that, most times, it is macro that will win games. Micro just gets focused on in shoutcasts and such because this is not fun for the viewer:

    Shoutcaster: Oh, looks like we're getting ready for the big confrontation now! 150 food army versus a 165 food army! Who will win?

    *Battle commences*

    Shoutcaster: While that's going on, lets go back and look at these barracks and see if they are still producing more units! What about these factories? Starports? What about upgrades? Are they expanding? What about more unit producing structures?

    *Camera pans back to the battleground*

    Shoutcaster: Oh, from the looks of it, the red terran seemed to have come out on top in that epic battle


    Macro is not exciting to watch to the casual SC2 shoutcast viewer.

    Dourin on
  • eeSanGeeSanG I slice like a goddamn hammer. Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Macro was exciting during the days of iloveoov, also known as the Cheater Terran.

    eeSanG on
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    Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    oov was a pro

    mainly for his face

    undeinPirat on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] steam: undeinpirat
  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Dourin wrote: »
    I think what they're trying to say is that, most times, it is macro that will win games. Micro just gets focused on in shoutcasts and such because this is not fun for the viewer:

    Shoutcaster: Oh, looks like we're getting ready for the big confrontation now! 150 food army versus a 165 food army! Who will win?

    *Battle commences*

    Shoutcaster: While that's going on, lets go back and look at these barracks and see if they are still producing more units! What about these factories? Starports? What about upgrades? Are they expanding? What about more unit producing structures?

    *Camera pans back to the battleground*

    Shoutcaster: Oh, from the looks of it, the red terran seemed to have come out on top in that epic battle


    Macro is not exciting to watch to the casual SC2 shoutcast viewer.

    They should go to the player's view and have a little picture in picture of his left hand burning up the keyboard. That would be awesome.

    TheStig on
    bnet: TheStig#1787 Steam: TheStig
  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    subedii wrote: »
    if you want more micro go play DoW2 for something modern

    and to gnome, there aren't that many rts games that balance micro and macro like starcraft

    According to Steam, I put like, 300 hours into DoW2 and got pretty decent at the game (although that's excluding CR, that's counted as separate). Seeing the footage of SC2 I genuinely wouldn't consider it to be more micro intensive than SC2, but then like I said, I haven't played it yet.

    a micro intensive game is something that has low unit counts where every unit counts

    I'd consider a micro intensive game to be one where you have to do a lot of management of individual units, spellcasting and so forth. I mean DoW2 had only about 10 sqauds max in a game usually, but the gameplay pace isn't really that fast and there wasn't really all that much to the micro at all, apart from the occasional timed ability or well thrown grenade.

    Then I watch things like the Starcraft 2 battle reports and see things like shield traps in precise locations to cut off units and drop-pick-up-drop-pick-up of units in between firing, whilst I see other players harp on about how many crappy mistakes the devs are making.

    I guess maybe it's something I'll get more of a feel for when I'm actually playing.

    subedii on
  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    subedii wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    if you want more micro go play DoW2 for something modern

    and to gnome, there aren't that many rts games that balance micro and macro like starcraft

    According to Steam, I put like, 300 hours into DoW2 and got pretty decent at the game (although that's excluding CR, that's counted as separate). Seeing the footage of SC2 I genuinely wouldn't consider it to be more micro intensive than SC2, but then like I said, I haven't played it yet.

    a micro intensive game is something that has low unit counts where every unit counts

    I'd consider a micro intensive game to be one where you have to do a lot of management of individual units, spellcasting and so forth. I mean DoW2 had only about 10 sqauds max in a game usually, but the gameplay pace isn't really that fast and there wasn't really all that much to the micro at all, apart from the occasional timed ability or well thrown grenade.

    Then I watch things like the Starcraft 2 battle reports and see things like shield traps in precise locations to cut off units and drop-pick-up-drop-pick-up of units in between firing, whilst I see other players harp on about how many crappy mistakes the devs are making.

    I guess maybe it's something I'll get more of a feel for when I'm actually playing.

    Well, those 2 things aren't really micro intensive actions.
    For the shield wall you press 2 (or whatever group you have your sentries on) then just shift clicky-click in a line where you want your shields. It takes like .2 seconds.

    There really isn't much to the dropship thing either. You just drop it where the enemy can't hit you and pick it up when they can. It's actually a lot less micro intensive to counter it than it is to execute.

    Really I don't think you will have much of a problem with the level of micro when you first start playing. The macro can be a bit overwhelming though.

    TheStig on
    bnet: TheStig#1787 Steam: TheStig
  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    TheStig wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    if you want more micro go play DoW2 for something modern

    and to gnome, there aren't that many rts games that balance micro and macro like starcraft

    According to Steam, I put like, 300 hours into DoW2 and got pretty decent at the game (although that's excluding CR, that's counted as separate). Seeing the footage of SC2 I genuinely wouldn't consider it to be more micro intensive than SC2, but then like I said, I haven't played it yet.

    a micro intensive game is something that has low unit counts where every unit counts

    I'd consider a micro intensive game to be one where you have to do a lot of management of individual units, spellcasting and so forth. I mean DoW2 had only about 10 sqauds max in a game usually, but the gameplay pace isn't really that fast and there wasn't really all that much to the micro at all, apart from the occasional timed ability or well thrown grenade.

    Then I watch things like the Starcraft 2 battle reports and see things like shield traps in precise locations to cut off units and drop-pick-up-drop-pick-up of units in between firing, whilst I see other players harp on about how many crappy mistakes the devs are making.

    I guess maybe it's something I'll get more of a feel for when I'm actually playing.

    Well, those 2 things aren't really micro intensive actions.
    For the shield wall you press 2 (or whatever group you have your sentries on) then just shift clicky-click in a line where you want your shields. It takes like .2 seconds.

    There really isn't much to the dropship thing either. You just drop it where the enemy can't hit you and pick it up when they can. It's actually a lot less micro intensive to counter it than it is to execute.

    Really I don't think you will have much of a problem with the level of micro when you first start playing. The macro can be a bit overwhelming though.

    The macro I'm not really worried about, that just takes time and experience to learn. Of course I'm going to do a lot of dying early on, but that's natural in any online RTS. But you talk about stuff like having a humble 50APM, and I doubt I even do close to that in an average game of DoW 2.

    Still, this is all academic until the game's out.

    subedii on
  • MvrckMvrck Dwarven MountainhomeRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Learning the macro is far, far harder in this game.

    The toughest thing to learn is that it's OK to let your army die if it means that you are making sure you have twice the income and production capability of the other guy. You will seriously go from the bottom of the ladders to mid/high gold or platinum just getting over that mental block. Some of the early games I played just make me cringe in horror watching how awful my macro was back when I just started out.

    Mvrck on
  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    50 apm is nothing

    once you start playing sc2, you will get 50 apm

    it is hard not to be doing 50 apm when you have two bases going

    undeinPirat on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] steam: undeinpirat
  • iCCup.DiamondiCCup.Diamond Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    50 apm is nothing

    once you start playing sc2, you will get 50 apm

    it is hard not to be doing 50 apm when you have two bases going

    Yea 50 APM is bad. I currently have about 100-130 and I SUCK (low level Diamond).

    To give examples (mind you I have replays sitting around of all these guys to check)
    HuK: 250-310 APM
    CatZ: 175-200
    Joseki: 320-350
    Artosis: 170-200

    This game requires insane APM. For all the ppl screaming about DoW2 your insane. DoW2 requires like 90 APM tops. How do I know? Well Lord Lokgar is part of my team and is one of the best DoW2 players out there so I can just ask him these things.

    iCCup.Diamond on
  • LemmingLemming Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I only have like 90 apm. Derp derp.

    Lemming on
  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    i remember seeing a time where july peaked at the high hundreds during a battle once in sc1

    freaking koreans man

    (note, you really don't need too much apm until you start getting to the higher levels of play (and if you are at the higher levels, you will have higher apm))

    undeinPirat on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] steam: undeinpirat
  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Lemming wrote: »
    I only have like 90 apm. Derp derp.

    probably why you're slumming in the bronze league.

    TheStig on
    bnet: TheStig#1787 Steam: TheStig
  • iCCup.DiamondiCCup.Diamond Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    i remember seeing a time where july peaked at the high hundreds during a battle once in sc1

    freaking koreans man

    (note, you really don't need too much apm until you start getting to the higher levels of play (and if you are at the higher levels, you will have higher apm))

    I know what your talking and he peaked at over 800 APM. 16.66 actions per second.......

    Seriously you need roughly 200 APM to play SC2 at a high level unless your name is Axslav who has like 80 but borderline insane tactics.

    iCCup.Diamond on
  • kaleeditykaleedity Sometimes science is more art than science Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    50 apm average, low level diamond player

    I peak at 100 apm in the replay ui when I get into firefights!

    kaleedity on
  • BlueBlueBlueBlue Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    subedii wrote: »
    The macro I'm not really worried about, that just takes time and experience to learn. Of course I'm going to do a lot of dying early on, but that's natural in any online RTS. But you talk about stuff like having a humble 50APM, and I doubt I even do close to that in an average game of DoW 2.

    Still, this is all academic until the game's out.

    It takes years of practice to be as good as the pros. Speaking for myself, I know that I will never put that much time into it - which means there will always be plenty of people better than me, no matter how well I do. But, I still have a lot of fun playing! And I do ok, for someone who only played the original starcraft very casually and sc2 for maybe 2 weeks. It seems weird to me to worry about being under <some arbitrary amount of skill> when you don't really know even how skilled that is or not?

    Also 50 apm is like under a click a second, bring up a timer or something and see how slow that is.

    BlueBlue on
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  • BlueBlueBlueBlue Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    I currently have about 100-130 and I SUCK (low level [highest rank there is])

    I really feel like they should do something about this. There are several kinds of crystals, come on.

    BlueBlue on
    CD World Tour status:
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  • iCCup.DiamondiCCup.Diamond Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    BlueBlue wrote: »
    I currently have about 100-130 and I SUCK (low level [highest rank there is])

    I really feel like they should do something about this. There are several kinds of crystals, come on.

    I thought it was pretty obvious I am just so awesome they made me my own division......

    iCCup.Diamond on
  • iowaiowa Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    any solid news on when the beta will come up, diamond?

    iowa on
  • BlueBlueBlueBlue Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Also isn't it supposedly up already in the Korean netcafes or whatever?

    BlueBlue on
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  • iCCup.DiamondiCCup.Diamond Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    iowa wrote: »
    any solid news on when the beta will come up, diamond?

    Hopefully July 1st. But no one knows for sure. hell, even Day9 has no clue....
    BlueBlue wrote: »
    Also isn't it supposedly up already in the Korean netcafes or whatever?

    The cake was a lie...... :cry:

    iCCup.Diamond on
  • MvrckMvrck Dwarven MountainhomeRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Can't imagine they'll do the Beta before the 4th. The Tuesday after though...that I could see very easily.

    Mvrck on
  • RivulentRivulent Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Mvrck wrote: »
    Can't imagine they'll do the Beta before the 4th. The Tuesday after though...that I could see very easily.

    You took my stance

    He tuuk he stanz!
    DERK DERK DERKA!
    sp_1310_clip01.jpg

    Rivulent on
  • BlueBlueBlueBlue Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    No way! Early July definitely means the first. How could it possibly be the 4th? That's pre-mid-july at best.

    BlueBlue on
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  • MvrckMvrck Dwarven MountainhomeRegistered User regular
    edited June 2010
    Actually it going live on the 4th in the US would be an interesting play on the whole Wings of Liberty thing.

    Mvrck on
  • TrusTrus Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    kaleedity wrote: »
    50 apm average, low level diamond player

    I peak at 100 apm in the replay ui when I get into firefights!

    ^5 low APM diamond buddy

    Trus on
    qFN53.png
  • walnutmonwalnutmon Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    My APM averages around 30-40, and I was ranked top 10 Silver zerg player, then a mid ranking random player after the reset

    APM isn't important in starcraft because being able to click things on the map with crazy speed is important, it's just a lot of shit to remember to do, and if you're doing them all, you're organizing them well, doing them in batches and the High APM comes without too much "micro" where micro is individually assigning units to specific commands.

    I've been thinking of making an iphone app that helps with starcraft 2 macro, it's just a series of timers reminding you to look at something, or perform a task, or to stop panicking because there are 2 zerglings in your mineral line when you have 10 drones

    "build all larva"
    "do you have 10% of your food cap available?" - "build two overlords"
    "make more workers"
    "make more units"
    "scout"
    "upgrade melee"
    "spawn tumors"

    ...

    On second thought... that sounds like a really annoying app; which makes it better, because there are dark possibilities as well...

    edit: Blizzard has sued me for copy-wright thought crimes

    walnutmon on
    xbox: jmbizzo | ps3: walnutmon | steam: walnutmon | SC2: walnutmon.591
  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User regular
    edited June 2010
    honestly just get a 40 second egg timer for zerg

    all you need

    undeinPirat on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] steam: undeinpirat
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