Wow... a lot of people seem really offended by the fact some people were offended by this comic.
This thread needs a Venn diagram.
I don't think anybody is offended that people were offended. Personally I find it utterly hilarious that people are pathetic enough to get all twisted up by various jokes.
I crack Jesus and little boy jokes all the time, I don't get offended when people get upset, it's more "lol christians".
It was more a general comment, but it highlights just how ridiculous this whole thing is. Everyone has their hot button issue, and some time in your life it's going to get pushed.
Telling people to lighten up about it is just stupid... because once YOUR button gets pushed you're going to be shaking your fist in rage just as much as the next guy. If you don't believe me, watch Glenn Beck some time.
Glenn Beck is more hilarious than offensive to me.
I can't think of anything somebody could say to me or about me that would offend me. Now I heard someone telling someone else that they should rob me or mug me I'd be rather pissed off, but that's advocating physical violence.
I'd become angry if someone did attack me, rob me, smash up my stuff, ect. But if someone started to crack jokes about things I enjoy, or any of the bad/traumatic things that have happened in my life I wouldn't be offended or get wound up.
Not really Sipex- I have never lost a family member in an automobile accident, but I am fairly certain that I would never trivialize the experience of someone who has.
And the act of being raped is, generally speakind, more psychologically damaging than a car accident.
so basically the discussion is concluded, and you are wrong
But that's the thing, I never proposed trivialising it. I never said I thought it was trivial. You're letting your emotions take place of logic here which is kind of how this entire thread started.
I'm simply asking the question: Why is it a social faux pas to not want to deal with someones trauma and saying something akin to "I'm sorry, but I'm not inviting you over until you come to terms with what happened because you really just bring everyone down."?
I ask the question not because I endorse it but because I want to know and it's interesting to see that there is subject matter that can't even be touched theoretically without emotions beginning to involve themselves.
Because logically I understand that people need help through trauma because we are a social species?
The problem with rape jokes is not so much that they remind victims of their trauma.
The issue is more that making light of serious problems is a great way to trivialize them.
We live in a society where rape is a very common and serious problem. There is a common attitude that it's actually not a problem, that it's rare, that it occurs because of crazed individuals and not ingrained social problems. Making jokes about rape is like making racist jokes, in that they trivialize and normalize a real
problem.
This attitude basically means that people should only make jokes about trivial things. So, no jokes about war, racism, societal injustice, rape, gangs, pedophilia, government corruption or anything that is serious business.
no
it says that it's reasonable and understandable that someone might get offended at a joke that trivializes something they feel strongly about
No I would argue that it is NOT reasonable to be offended by this joke, I would argue that the term "reasonable" in the context used in this thread should hold the same definition as the "Reasonable prudent person" standard under the american legal system. The standard of a reasonable prudent person is what would an average person, with average skills, knowledge, and beliefs would react in a given situation."
I would argue that applying average morales, knowledge and beliefs to this cartoon would not make it reasonable for someone to be offended by the use of the word "rape", in fact only a small minorty of persons who actually have viewed it have been offended, thus making it unreasonable under this legal standard.
again, the problem is not the word "rape" or the concept of rape; the problem is trivialization of rape.
Horseshit, how did this comic trivialize rape? Please explain how the true life act of a man/women sexually assualting another human being is being trivalized by this comic. pray tell.
Look if you don't understand how the phrase "raped to sleep by dickwolves" doesn't trivialize it, we don't really have much to discuss here until you take a step back and think a little bit about society.
So if they instead had said "fucked to sleep by dickwolves" then no trivalization would have occured? Thus it is only the use of the word rape that causes offense?
It simply doesn't trivalize rape, it simply doesn't. If I stated that "Man after that test I feel like I was raped with an elephant dick" I am not in fact trivalizing the real world act of rape, i.e. seuxal assualt the physical act of one person penetrating another person in a sexual manner, which is how it is defined in the model state penal code.
I have put rapist behind bars, literally, meaning in fact really really for real. so no a fucking comic about MMO's and quests that happenes to use rape as a catalyst for the punch line does not trivalize rape.
If you don't realize that "fucked" and "raped" have two different meanings, my initial point still stands and in fact, reinforces everything that people such as myself get "uppity" about in regards to the trivialization of the act and associated nomenclature and reference.
Actually in CONTEXT of this comic a slave stating that they are "beaten awake....and then fucked to sleep by dickwolves" would in fact have an implied concept that they are being forced against their will, because they are SLAVES. So it would in fact be the same thing in the once again, CONTEXT of the comic. thankfully most vigilantes that get offended by this sorta of non-issue don't usually notice context as much as naked words.
Wow... a lot of people seem really offended by the fact some people were offended by this comic.
This thread needs a Venn diagram.
I don't think anybody is offended that people were offended. Personally I find it utterly hilarious that people are pathetic enough to get all twisted up by various jokes.
I crack Jesus and little boy jokes all the time, I don't get offended when people get upset, it's more "lol christians".
It was more a general comment, but it highlights just how ridiculous this whole thing is. Everyone has their hot button issue, and some time in your life it's going to get pushed.
Telling people to lighten up about it is just stupid... because once YOUR button gets pushed you're going to be shaking your fist in rage just as much as the next guy. If you don't believe me, watch Glenn Beck some time.
Glenn Beck is more hilarious than offensive to me.
I can't think of anything somebody could say to me or about me that would offend me. Now I heard someone telling someone else that they should rob me or mug me I'd be rather pissed off, but that's advocating physical violence.
I'd become angry if someone did attack me, rob me, smash up my stuff, ect. But if someone started to crack jokes about things I enjoy, or any of the bad/traumatic things that have happened in my life I wouldn't be offended or get wound up.
See, this is just the sticks and stones argument that has been proven to be psychologically untrue. Words can do damage to a person. The fact that you seem impervious to that leads me to believe you are either very in touch with your emotions or you have Aspergers.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Maybe someone has commented on this already, but I'm a little surprised that we're having this conversation now, and not Nine comics ago. Or three comics prior to that.
Or any of the dozens of other times that this comic has run a rape joke. Not that I mind, particularly.
Okay, I guess I take that back. My reaction to "The S Word" was something along the lines of "Rape Joke? On My birthday? Aww, come on "
Because you can't get on a soap box and white knight about male rape. It doesn't earn you cool hip points about being with it and working to better the world. Which is why you won't really see that happen, but you'll see a shit storm if somebody even comes close to cracking a joke about raping women around certain groups and people will race to see who can complain the loudest and a ton of shoulder thumping and high fives.
Now, one could question whether the word 'rape' (or holocaust, or abortion, et cetera) has a place anywhere in any kind of humorous endeavor. And that questioner would be an idiot. An idiot who has clearly not seen any Mel Brooks movies.
Your righteous indignation about this subject is really inspiring.
It's funny that you would single me out, because I decided to wade into this thread because of your ridiculousness from the first page:
However, I think another way to think about this question, especially with rape, is in terms of sensitivity. There are topics that make people uncomfortable, and they don't have any control over this. For example, joking about the Holocaust is probably going to make a Holocaust survivor uncomfortable. Even if the HC survivor isn't trying to get offended, the joke will remind him or her of trauma. So, you shouldn't make jokes about the Holocaust near Holocaust survivors.
You realize we are talking about a comic that people have to actively seek out, right? They aren't making jokes around rape victims. People are coming to PA to read jokes. They are actively seeking out this entertainment. To bitch about it is like heckling in a club--you did it to yourself by buying the ticket, by typing in the url. Gabe and Tycho can't possibly account for all the potentially-offended on the Internet, yet you persist in chastising them and advocating for a vague sensitivity based on statistical significance. You said earlier that no ex-slaves read Penny Arcade. Do you know that for sure? What number of ex-slaves would there have to be to pass Qingu's self-censorship threshold?
And there's also the fact that, you know, the comic didn't actually make light of rape. It used the concept of rape as a marker for something endured by the unluckiest guy in the universe.
This is hyperbole, but the point remains: self censorship, especially the kind that would censor such a harmless reference to rape as this one, is bad and makes for bad art.
Maybe someone has commented on this already, but I'm a little surprised that we're having this conversation now, and not Nine comics ago. Or three comics prior to that.
Or any of the dozens of other times that this comic has run a rape joke. Not that I mind, particularly.
Okay, I guess I take that back. My reaction to "The S Word" was something along the lines of "Rape Joke? On My birthday? Aww, come on "
Because you can't get on a soap box and white knight about male rape. It doesn't earn you cool hip points about being with it and working to better the world. Which is why you won't really see that happen, but you'll see a shit storm if somebody even comes close to cracking a joke about raping women around certain groups and people will race to see who can complain the loudest and a ton of shoulder thumping and high fives.
Woah, this thread went bad quickly didn't it? Everyone went flying to the most extreme and unnuanced positions they could ASAP, huh?
Seriously, PA is known for being offensive in a broad variety of ways. If this is a problem for you, it's very easy to avoid the comic. Claiming rape jokes trivialize rape and make it more likely or whatever the fuck you're going for is pretty ridiculous. Considering how this forum falls on issues like video game violence, it seems even more ridiculous.
On the other side...what the fuck is wrong with some of you? Rape victims should just 'get over it'? Jesus. Do you lack even the smallest scrap of empathy? Because that's some villainous shit to say, there.
Maybe someone has commented on this already, but I'm a little surprised that we're having this conversation now, and not Nine comics ago. Or three comics prior to that.
Or any of the dozens of other times that this comic has run a rape joke. Not that I mind, particularly.
Okay, I guess I take that back. My reaction to "The S Word" was something along the lines of "Rape Joke? On My birthday? Aww, come on "
Because you can't get on a soap box and white knight about male rape. It doesn't earn you cool hip points about being with it and working to better the world. Which is why you won't really see that happen, but you'll see a shit storm if somebody even comes close to cracking a joke about raping women around certain groups and people will race to see who can complain the loudest and a ton of shoulder thumping and high fives.
But... I thought this LAST comic was about male rape. Wasn't the slave person a guy?
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Maybe someone has commented on this already, but I'm a little surprised that we're having this conversation now, and not Nine comics ago. Or three comics prior to that.
Or any of the dozens of other times that this comic has run a rape joke. Not that I mind, particularly.
Okay, I guess I take that back. My reaction to "The S Word" was something along the lines of "Rape Joke? On My birthday? Aww, come on "
Because you can't get on a soap box and white knight about male rape. It doesn't earn you cool hip points about being with it and working to better the world. Which is why you won't really see that happen, but you'll see a shit storm if somebody even comes close to cracking a joke about raping women around certain groups and people will race to see who can complain the loudest and a ton of shoulder thumping and high fives.
But... I thought this LAST comic was about male rape. Wasn't the slave person a guy?
Wow... a lot of people seem really offended by the fact some people were offended by this comic.
This thread needs a Venn diagram.
I don't think anybody is offended that people were offended. Personally I find it utterly hilarious that people are pathetic enough to get all twisted up by various jokes.
I crack Jesus and little boy jokes all the time, I don't get offended when people get upset, it's more "lol christians".
It was more a general comment, but it highlights just how ridiculous this whole thing is. Everyone has their hot button issue, and some time in your life it's going to get pushed.
Telling people to lighten up about it is just stupid... because once YOUR button gets pushed you're going to be shaking your fist in rage just as much as the next guy. If you don't believe me, watch Glenn Beck some time.
Glenn Beck is more hilarious than offensive to me.
I can't think of anything somebody could say to me or about me that would offend me. Now I heard someone telling someone else that they should rob me or mug me I'd be rather pissed off, but that's advocating physical violence.
I'd become angry if someone did attack me, rob me, smash up my stuff, ect. But if someone started to crack jokes about things I enjoy, or any of the bad/traumatic things that have happened in my life I wouldn't be offended or get wound up.
See, this is just the sticks and stones argument that has been proven to be psychologically untrue. Words can do damage to a person. The fact that you seem impervious to that leads me to believe you are either very in touch with your emotions or you have Aspergers.
I don't care what random other people say. I mean, if a friend or family member made some nasty comment about me I'd wonder what I did to deserve it, and possibly take some to evaluate if it's worth taking into consideration or if they are just in a bad mood because someone pissed in their cherrios that morning.
But outside of that, no I really don't care. There is no reason to.
Maybe someone has commented on this already, but I'm a little surprised that we're having this conversation now, and not Nine comics ago. Or three comics prior to that.
Or any of the dozens of other times that this comic has run a rape joke. Not that I mind, particularly.
Okay, I guess I take that back. My reaction to "The S Word" was something along the lines of "Rape Joke? On My birthday? Aww, come on "
Because you can't get on a soap box and white knight about male rape. It doesn't earn you cool hip points about being with it and working to better the world. Which is why you won't really see that happen, but you'll see a shit storm if somebody even comes close to cracking a joke about raping women around certain groups and people will race to see who can complain the loudest and a ton of shoulder thumping and high fives.
But... I thought this LAST comic was about male rape. Wasn't the slave person a guy?
Dickwolves are all female- its weird I know
Sometimes I forget how nuanced Penny-Arcade can be. Perhaps we can expand the discussion to include gender roles?
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Maybe someone has commented on this already, but I'm a little surprised that we're having this conversation now, and not Nine comics ago. Or three comics prior to that.
Or any of the dozens of other times that this comic has run a rape joke. Not that I mind, particularly.
Okay, I guess I take that back. My reaction to "The S Word" was something along the lines of "Rape Joke? On My birthday? Aww, come on "
Because you can't get on a soap box and white knight about male rape. It doesn't earn you cool hip points about being with it and working to better the world. Which is why you won't really see that happen, but you'll see a shit storm if somebody even comes close to cracking a joke about raping women around certain groups and people will race to see who can complain the loudest and a ton of shoulder thumping and high fives.
But... I thought this LAST comic was about male rape. Wasn't the slave person a guy?
Dickwolves are all female- its weird I know
Sometimes I forget how nuanced Penny-Arcade can be. Perhaps we can expand the discussion to include gender roles?
Not really Sipex- I have never lost a family member in an automobile accident, but I am fairly certain that I would never trivialize the experience of someone who has.
And the act of being raped is, generally speakind, more psychologically damaging than a car accident.
so basically the discussion is concluded, and you are wrong
But that's the thing, I never proposed trivialising it. I never said I thought it was trivial. You're letting your emotions take place of logic here which is kind of how this entire thread started.
I'm simply asking the question: Why is it a social faux pas to not want to deal with someones trauma and saying something akin to "I'm sorry, but I'm not inviting you over until you come to terms with what happened because you really just bring everyone down."?
I ask the question not because I endorse it but because I want to know and it's interesting to see that there is subject matter that can't even be touched theoretically without emotions beginning to involve themselves.
Because logically I understand that people need help through trauma because we are a social species?
Okay, this is more what I was going for.
I agree, we are a social species, and this is totally understandable with close friends/family. Even in the light of strangers you show some respect at least because, hey, you (probably) don't know what it's like and nobody should have to endure that.
This could be argued that it's insensitive to the introvert though, the socially awkward person who keeps to themselves and doesn't want to deal with anyone elses problems, no matter how trivial or severe.
I would like to take a moment to clarify my real position as I'm sure your imaginations are going nuts, imagining me as some shut in who kicks puppies and dreams of killing his close neighbours.
I'm a quiet guy and I think rape is totally horrible. Some of the stuff people can do to each other makes me sick to my stomach. I feel for my friends and family and constantly try to help them solve their problems because I don't like to see them unhappy. Incidentally this ends up pissing them off sometimes :P
Meh wasn't thinking, all the people I've known to get offended by rape jokes have done it about female rape. And several posts in this thread brought up femanism and rape statistics referring to female rape, oops!
Wow... a lot of people seem really offended by the fact some people were offended by this comic.
This thread needs a Venn diagram.
I don't think anybody is offended that people were offended. Personally I find it utterly hilarious that people are pathetic enough to get all twisted up by various jokes.
I crack Jesus and little boy jokes all the time, I don't get offended when people get upset, it's more "lol christians".
It was more a general comment, but it highlights just how ridiculous this whole thing is. Everyone has their hot button issue, and some time in your life it's going to get pushed.
Telling people to lighten up about it is just stupid... because once YOUR button gets pushed you're going to be shaking your fist in rage just as much as the next guy. If you don't believe me, watch Glenn Beck some time.
Glenn Beck is more hilarious than offensive to me.
I can't think of anything somebody could say to me or about me that would offend me. Now I heard someone telling someone else that they should rob me or mug me I'd be rather pissed off, but that's advocating physical violence.
I'd become angry if someone did attack me, rob me, smash up my stuff, ect. But if someone started to crack jokes about things I enjoy, or any of the bad/traumatic things that have happened in my life I wouldn't be offended or get wound up.
See, this is just the sticks and stones argument that has been proven to be psychologically untrue. Words can do damage to a person. The fact that you seem impervious to that leads me to believe you are either very in touch with your emotions or you have Aspergers.
I don't care what random other people say. I mean, if a friend or family member made some nasty comment about me I'd wonder what I did to deserve it, and possibly take some to evaluate if it's worth taking into consideration or if they are just in a bad mood because someone pissed in their cherrios that morning.
But outside of that, no I really don't care. There is no reason to.
And this holds true if they say it about your mom, sister, or someone close to you? You're honestly saying (from the anonymity of your computer) that there is nothing anyone could ever say that would upset you? Do you not even realize how crazy that sounds?
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Maybe someone has commented on this already, but I'm a little surprised that we're having this conversation now, and not Nine comics ago. Or three comics prior to that.
Or any of the dozens of other times that this comic has run a rape joke. Not that I mind, particularly.
Okay, I guess I take that back. My reaction to "The S Word" was something along the lines of "Rape Joke? On My birthday? Aww, come on "
Because you can't get on a soap box and white knight about male rape. It doesn't earn you cool hip points about being with it and working to better the world. Which is why you won't really see that happen, but you'll see a shit storm if somebody even comes close to cracking a joke about raping women around certain groups and people will race to see who can complain the loudest and a ton of shoulder thumping and high fives.
I suggest you observe the genders of the characters in comic which did trigger this thread.
As for "why now, rather than earlier?" well D&D and even SE++ have wandered into the topic of rape culture before. It is rarely productive. But the latest comic managed to get featured on some prominent blogs and got a dedicated reply comic from our kind hosts themselves so I presume that's why there's a thread now.
On the other side...what the fuck is wrong with some of you? Rape victims should just 'get over it'? Jesus. Do you lack even the smallest scrap of empathy? Because that's some villainous shit to say, there.
I know this is directed at me, I'm the only one who's said anything like this.
Again, it shows how emotions automatically take over. You've already judged me and painted your own picture of me simply because I said something about a hot button.
Is it worth pointing out that the fact that the rape joke was made is the only reason we're seriously discussing rape right now, instead of any number of other things?
Is it worth pointing out that the fact that the rape joke was made is the only reason we're seriously discussing rape right now, instead of any number of other things?
While I firmly believe that everyone has the right to get just as offended as they want to at whatever they feel like being offended about, my problem is that, unlike other forms of expression, voicing your feeling of offense automatically carries with it the implication that Something Should Be Done.
You don't like Wednesday's comic. Fine. I thought it was funny, but I see where some people wouldn't. The difference lies in that when I say, "Man, that was a funny comic strip" the only expectation of response is that someone will agree, disagree, or be neutral to my statement. If I say, "I am deeply offended by that comic strip" then the implication is that someone has done something wrong to have offended me and some form of restitution should be performed. Nobody is actually obligated to do a damn thing just because someone, or indeed a lot of people or even everyone, is offended by something you did, but where a failure to respond to any other type of opinion-statement is, at worst, considered rude for having ignored the statement itself, not responding to an allegation of offense paints you as being purposefully offensive.
Yes, you have the right to be offended by something and you have the right to tell me or anyone else that I offended you. I just think it's screwed up that our culture essentially demands that I address your offense. If I paint a picture that you think is a piece of shit I am not socially obligated to apologize for your low opinion on the quality of my work. If I paint a picture that you think is a masterpiece I am not obligated to thank you for your praise. But if I paint a picture that you think is offensive and you yell loudly enough about it, I am obligated to address your offense lest our peers believe me to be insensitive to your plight. Assuming I'm not just immediately labeled a bad person for having made the offense in the first place, restitution aside. Sure, sometimes a person really is insensitive and that's why the offense was caused, but since we, as a culture, side with the victim, it doesn't really matter what my intent was once you become offended by my work.
I have no idea what should or could be done about this, if anything.
I believe this is the most succinct post in this thread. Its not that someone gets "offended" or not its that for some reason our society no imposes and unstated obligation on the accused offender to some pay restituation to this unintended victim, and thus PC is born, the hyper-sensitive self censorship that precludes any and all artistic and literary exploration, no philosphical discourse, nothining, because god forbid you offend someone, and trust me someone somewhere will be offended.
Trivalize" to undervalue, underestimate, play down, minimize, scoff at, belittle, laugh off, make light of, underplay.
In no way does this joke do any of the above to the sexual assualt, people like to use the trivalization argument for something they may find distastful or offensive, but it is a facious one. The argument is that by "trivalizing it, people (as a whole) will form the belief that the subject is not real and/or um hum trivial.
I dare say that this comic and others of its kind do not cause our society to think that real world rape is a trivial matter. its simply does not have that affect.
Wow... a lot of people seem really offended by the fact some people were offended by this comic.
This thread needs a Venn diagram.
I don't think anybody is offended that people were offended. Personally I find it utterly hilarious that people are pathetic enough to get all twisted up by various jokes.
I crack Jesus and little boy jokes all the time, I don't get offended when people get upset, it's more "lol christians".
It was more a general comment, but it highlights just how ridiculous this whole thing is. Everyone has their hot button issue, and some time in your life it's going to get pushed.
Telling people to lighten up about it is just stupid... because once YOUR button gets pushed you're going to be shaking your fist in rage just as much as the next guy. If you don't believe me, watch Glenn Beck some time.
Glenn Beck is more hilarious than offensive to me.
I can't think of anything somebody could say to me or about me that would offend me. Now I heard someone telling someone else that they should rob me or mug me I'd be rather pissed off, but that's advocating physical violence.
I'd become angry if someone did attack me, rob me, smash up my stuff, ect. But if someone started to crack jokes about things I enjoy, or any of the bad/traumatic things that have happened in my life I wouldn't be offended or get wound up.
See, this is just the sticks and stones argument that has been proven to be psychologically untrue. Words can do damage to a person. The fact that you seem impervious to that leads me to believe you are either very in touch with your emotions or you have Aspergers.
I don't care what random other people say. I mean, if a friend or family member made some nasty comment about me I'd wonder what I did to deserve it, and possibly take some to evaluate if it's worth taking into consideration or if they are just in a bad mood because someone pissed in their cherrios that morning.
But outside of that, no I really don't care. There is no reason to.
And this holds true if they say it about your mom, sister, or someone close to you? You're honestly saying (from the anonymity of your computer) that there is nothing anyone could ever say that would upset you? Do you not even realize how crazy that sounds?
It's not my problem if somebody cracks jokes about my mom, sister, friend, whatever. If a friend of mine makes a crass "she's only sleeping with you because she's a slut" comment about a girl I'm seeing why the hell should I care? It's a joke. And even if it was true, why get worked up about?
If somebody makes fun of my dad and cracks old people jokes it's really not an issue. It's either obviously a joke in which case haha, or it's true in which case "haha, well yeah".
While I certainly agree that we should have a measure of personal responsibility, and should not excuse actions taken in a fit of extreme emotion, I stand by my point that this is a two way street, and there are certainly people who are either intentionally or unintentionally being offensive, and there are times when they must accept responsibility for those actions or words.
I can agree that criminals (breaking laws) should be responsible for their actions and made to give retribution. In the cases where someone's actions cause near universal harm to the victims (murder, theft, rape, etc), laws are created to punish (or hold responsible) those offenders.
But I worry that "being offensive" is a 'crime' that, as has been mentioned previously, cannot be avoided--precisely because (as the premise of this thread) being offended is a choice, and there is always a group who can find a reason to "be offended" for almost any topic.
That said, I'm not advocating people be dicks just to get the rest of the world to "deal with their problems." I hope it doesn't come across that way. But requiring retribution for something that is entirely in the hands of the beholder (to choose how it affects their life) is the problem that I see.
Wow... a lot of people seem really offended by the fact some people were offended by this comic.
This thread needs a Venn diagram.
It took me a while, the only drawing program i have is Photoshop, and I'm barely proficient enough to open it, let alone manipulate it soundly. This will hopefully sum up my position, as this thread has taken entirely too much of my day already. Thanks for being a sounding board, though, D&D!
Edit: Please don't take the sizes to be intentional! I just don't know how to draw perfect circles in photoshop! And yes, the black text/intersection of the diagram is mostly tongue in cheek
I dare say that this comic and others of its kind do not cause our society to think that real world rape is a trivial matter. its simply does not have that affect.
I totally agree, the only thing the mention of rape did for me was highlight just how horrible this guy's situation was.
While I certainly agree that we should have a measure of personal responsibility, and should not excuse actions taken in a fit of extreme emotion, I stand by my point that this is a two way street, and there are certainly people who are either intentionally or unintentionally being offensive, and there are times when they must accept responsibility for those actions or words.
I can agree that criminals (breaking laws) should be responsible for their actions and made to give retribution. In the cases where someone's actions cause near universal harm to the victims (murder, theft, etc), laws are created to punish (or hold responsible) those offenders.
But I worry that "being offensive" is a 'crime' that, as has been mentioned previously, cannot be avoided--precisely because (as the premise of this thread) being offended is a choice, and there are people who will take offense for anything you can think of (not one group that takes offense at everything, but there is always a group who can find a reason to "be offended" for almost any topic).
That said, I'm not advocating people be dicks just to get the rest of the world to "deal with their problems." I hope it doesn't come across that way. But requiring retribution for something that is entirely in the hands of the beholder (to choose how it affects their life) is the problem that I see.
Wow... a lot of people seem really offended by the fact some people were offended by this comic.
This thread needs a Venn diagram.
It took me a while, the only drawing program i have is Photoshop, and I'm barely proficient enough to open it, let alone manipulate it soundly. This will hopefully sum up my position, as this thread has taken entirely too much of my day already. Thanks for being a sounding board, though, D&D!
Nobody here seems offended that people got offended. That's just some bullshit someone made up to try and make a cute point, but it's pure BS.
People here seem to find it hilarious and pathetic that people got offended in the first place.
You can repeat that lie to make yourself feel better, but it really isn't true at all.
On the other side...what the fuck is wrong with some of you? Rape victims should just 'get over it'? Jesus. Do you lack even the smallest scrap of empathy? Because that's some villainous shit to say, there.
I know this is directed at me, I'm the only one who's said anything like this.
Again, it shows how emotions automatically take over. You've already judged me and painted your own picture of me simply because I said something about a hot button.
Actually, I think a lot of the reason rape hits people so hard it that they're told their whole lives it is the worst thing that can ever happen to them, worse than death, etc. I think a culture somewhat desensitized to rape would be better for rape victims because of that.
Doesn't mean you get to be disdainful of rape victims or trivialize the pain they are feeling right now without being called out on being a sociopath.
On the other side...what the fuck is wrong with some of you? Rape victims should just 'get over it'? Jesus. Do you lack even the smallest scrap of empathy? Because that's some villainous shit to say, there.
I know this is directed at me, I'm the only one who's said anything like this.
Again, it shows how emotions automatically take over. You've already judged me and painted your own picture of me simply because I said something about a hot button.
Actually, I think a lot of the reason rape hits people so hard it that they're told their whole lives it is the worst thing that can ever happen to them, worse than death, etc. I think a culture somewhat desensitized to rape would be better for rape victims because of that.
Doesn't mean you get to be disdainful of rape victims or trivialize the pain they are feeling right now without being called out on being a sociopath.
Oh yeah, I totally agree. I know if I actually believed that stuff I'd be called a sociopath (in fact, I was once already) and I'd probably be one.
And actually you answered some of the other questions I threw out there, this is such a bad topic because we make it that way. Not to say that the act itself isn't completely horrible but part of the stigma is because society says so.
I think I'm done with that tangent, any more posts like the previous and I'll have a mob hunting me down.
Nobody here seems offended that people got offended. That's just some bullshit someone made up to try and make a cute point, but it's pure BS.
People here seem to find it hilarious and pathetic that people got offended in the first place.
You can repeat that lie to make yourself feel better, but it really isn't true at all.
For someone who never gets upset, you're taking that venn diagram kind of personally. Did it rob your father?
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Everyone seems to have a hate on for "political correctness"
that term was invented by the right as a boogeyman through which they could ridicule any kind of leftist egalitarian policy with which they disagreed
what you perceive as some monster of censorship is actually the realization that language can cause harm, that it can do violence, that it is the most powerful means of establishing and maintaining ideological power.
Everyone seems to have a hate on for "political correctness"
that term was invented by the right as a boogeyman through which they could ridicule any kind of leftist egalitarian policy with which they disagreed
what you perceive as some monster of censorship is actually the realization that language can cause harm, that it can do violence, that it is the most powerful means of establishing and maintaining ideological power.
Well, I'd argue there is a wide gulf between choosing to be 'PC' and being expected or even required to be. If you choose to be, good for you, you're probably a better person than those who don't.
It's the other bit people loathe, and admittedly that second type is much less common and is usually exactly the boogeyman you say.
Edit: And the rest of the time the term is used as a red herring. "Oh no, they're mad because I wasn't PC!" No, we're mad because you said something horribly rascist/sexist/X-ist, fucked up, and untrue.
Everyone seems to have a hate on for "political correctness"
that term was invented by the right as a boogeyman through which they could ridicule any kind of leftist egalitarian policy with which they disagreed
what you perceive as some monster of censorship is actually the realization that language can cause harm, that it can do violence, that it is the most powerful means of establishing and maintaining ideological power.
I actually think political correctness is responsible for a lot of good stuff, like making it socially unacceptable (in a major way) to use the n-word inappropriately. A lot of the 'hate' on p.c. comes from hack comedians and closet bigots who want their slurs back.
That said, this is not an appropriate case for censorship, self or otherwise.
Everyone seems to have a hate on for "political correctness"
that term was invented by the right as a boogeyman through which they could ridicule any kind of leftist egalitarian policy with which they disagreed
what you perceive as some monster of censorship is actually the realization that language can cause harm, that it can do violence, that it is the most powerful means of establishing and maintaining ideological power.
Actually it has been aroudn since the 18th century to mean the prevaling political mindset, it was adopted by the liberal counter-culture in the 1970's and then repurposed by the right wingers in the 80-90's. Thankfully for me I have a BS in political science and theory and thus I know it is all bullshit and therefore belong to no party.
I would like to point out as someone who used to work in the crimical justice system, and delt directly with victims of serious crimes, it is rarely the words of the criminals that do the harm.
Everyone seems to have a hate on for "political correctness"
that term was invented by the right as a boogeyman through which they could ridicule any kind of leftist egalitarian policy with which they disagreed
what you perceive as some monster of censorship is actually the realization that language can cause harm, that it can do violence, that it is the most powerful means of establishing and maintaining ideological power.
The problem with being overly PC is that it's way too often used an excuse to shout down things that people dislike, and can be used as some sort of weapon. There is also a ton of "won't someone think of the children" mixed in with it.
Posts
Glenn Beck is more hilarious than offensive to me.
I can't think of anything somebody could say to me or about me that would offend me. Now I heard someone telling someone else that they should rob me or mug me I'd be rather pissed off, but that's advocating physical violence.
I'd become angry if someone did attack me, rob me, smash up my stuff, ect. But if someone started to crack jokes about things I enjoy, or any of the bad/traumatic things that have happened in my life I wouldn't be offended or get wound up.
It's a theoretical position, I'm asking why for the sake that it doesn't get asked at this time.
Well, it does but then you get called names.
Because logically I understand that people need help through trauma because we are a social species?
If you don't realize that "fucked" and "raped" have two different meanings, my initial point still stands and in fact, reinforces everything that people such as myself get "uppity" about in regards to the trivialization of the act and associated nomenclature and reference.
Actually in CONTEXT of this comic a slave stating that they are "beaten awake....and then fucked to sleep by dickwolves" would in fact have an implied concept that they are being forced against their will, because they are SLAVES. So it would in fact be the same thing in the once again, CONTEXT of the comic. thankfully most vigilantes that get offended by this sorta of non-issue don't usually notice context as much as naked words.
See, this is just the sticks and stones argument that has been proven to be psychologically untrue. Words can do damage to a person. The fact that you seem impervious to that leads me to believe you are either very in touch with your emotions or you have Aspergers.
Because you can't get on a soap box and white knight about male rape. It doesn't earn you cool hip points about being with it and working to better the world. Which is why you won't really see that happen, but you'll see a shit storm if somebody even comes close to cracking a joke about raping women around certain groups and people will race to see who can complain the loudest and a ton of shoulder thumping and high fives.
It's funny that you would single me out, because I decided to wade into this thread because of your ridiculousness from the first page:
You realize we are talking about a comic that people have to actively seek out, right? They aren't making jokes around rape victims. People are coming to PA to read jokes. They are actively seeking out this entertainment. To bitch about it is like heckling in a club--you did it to yourself by buying the ticket, by typing in the url. Gabe and Tycho can't possibly account for all the potentially-offended on the Internet, yet you persist in chastising them and advocating for a vague sensitivity based on statistical significance. You said earlier that no ex-slaves read Penny Arcade. Do you know that for sure? What number of ex-slaves would there have to be to pass Qingu's self-censorship threshold?
And there's also the fact that, you know, the comic didn't actually make light of rape. It used the concept of rape as a marker for something endured by the unluckiest guy in the universe.
This is hyperbole, but the point remains: self censorship, especially the kind that would censor such a harmless reference to rape as this one, is bad and makes for bad art.
I swear it is like you can't even read.
But don't be offended by that, of course.
Seriously, PA is known for being offensive in a broad variety of ways. If this is a problem for you, it's very easy to avoid the comic. Claiming rape jokes trivialize rape and make it more likely or whatever the fuck you're going for is pretty ridiculous. Considering how this forum falls on issues like video game violence, it seems even more ridiculous.
On the other side...what the fuck is wrong with some of you? Rape victims should just 'get over it'? Jesus. Do you lack even the smallest scrap of empathy? Because that's some villainous shit to say, there.
But... I thought this LAST comic was about male rape. Wasn't the slave person a guy?
Dickwolves are all female- its weird I know
best post in the thread so far
I don't care what random other people say. I mean, if a friend or family member made some nasty comment about me I'd wonder what I did to deserve it, and possibly take some to evaluate if it's worth taking into consideration or if they are just in a bad mood because someone pissed in their cherrios that morning.
But outside of that, no I really don't care. There is no reason to.
Sometimes I forget how nuanced Penny-Arcade can be. Perhaps we can expand the discussion to include gender roles?
Oh you
Okay, this is more what I was going for.
I agree, we are a social species, and this is totally understandable with close friends/family. Even in the light of strangers you show some respect at least because, hey, you (probably) don't know what it's like and nobody should have to endure that.
This could be argued that it's insensitive to the introvert though, the socially awkward person who keeps to themselves and doesn't want to deal with anyone elses problems, no matter how trivial or severe.
I would like to take a moment to clarify my real position as I'm sure your imaginations are going nuts, imagining me as some shut in who kicks puppies and dreams of killing his close neighbours.
I'm a quiet guy and I think rape is totally horrible. Some of the stuff people can do to each other makes me sick to my stomach. I feel for my friends and family and constantly try to help them solve their problems because I don't like to see them unhappy. Incidentally this ends up pissing them off sometimes :P
Meh wasn't thinking, all the people I've known to get offended by rape jokes have done it about female rape. And several posts in this thread brought up femanism and rape statistics referring to female rape, oops!
And this holds true if they say it about your mom, sister, or someone close to you? You're honestly saying (from the anonymity of your computer) that there is nothing anyone could ever say that would upset you? Do you not even realize how crazy that sounds?
I suggest you observe the genders of the characters in comic which did trigger this thread.
As for "why now, rather than earlier?" well D&D and even SE++ have wandered into the topic of rape culture before. It is rarely productive. But the latest comic managed to get featured on some prominent blogs and got a dedicated reply comic from our kind hosts themselves so I presume that's why there's a thread now.
I know this is directed at me, I'm the only one who's said anything like this.
Again, it shows how emotions automatically take over. You've already judged me and painted your own picture of me simply because I said something about a hot button.
just absolutely shocking
yes.
I believe this is the most succinct post in this thread. Its not that someone gets "offended" or not its that for some reason our society no imposes and unstated obligation on the accused offender to some pay restituation to this unintended victim, and thus PC is born, the hyper-sensitive self censorship that precludes any and all artistic and literary exploration, no philosphical discourse, nothining, because god forbid you offend someone, and trust me someone somewhere will be offended.
Trivalize" to undervalue, underestimate, play down, minimize, scoff at, belittle, laugh off, make light of, underplay.
In no way does this joke do any of the above to the sexual assualt, people like to use the trivalization argument for something they may find distastful or offensive, but it is a facious one. The argument is that by "trivalizing it, people (as a whole) will form the belief that the subject is not real and/or um hum trivial.
I dare say that this comic and others of its kind do not cause our society to think that real world rape is a trivial matter. its simply does not have that affect.
It's not my problem if somebody cracks jokes about my mom, sister, friend, whatever. If a friend of mine makes a crass "she's only sleeping with you because she's a slut" comment about a girl I'm seeing why the hell should I care? It's a joke. And even if it was true, why get worked up about?
If somebody makes fun of my dad and cracks old people jokes it's really not an issue. It's either obviously a joke in which case haha, or it's true in which case "haha, well yeah".
Why get worked out about it.
I can agree that criminals (breaking laws) should be responsible for their actions and made to give retribution. In the cases where someone's actions cause near universal harm to the victims (murder, theft, rape, etc), laws are created to punish (or hold responsible) those offenders.
But I worry that "being offensive" is a 'crime' that, as has been mentioned previously, cannot be avoided--precisely because (as the premise of this thread) being offended is a choice, and there is always a group who can find a reason to "be offended" for almost any topic.
That said, I'm not advocating people be dicks just to get the rest of the world to "deal with their problems." I hope it doesn't come across that way. But requiring retribution for something that is entirely in the hands of the beholder (to choose how it affects their life) is the problem that I see.
It took me a while, the only drawing program i have is Photoshop, and I'm barely proficient enough to open it, let alone manipulate it soundly. This will hopefully sum up my position, as this thread has taken entirely too much of my day already. Thanks for being a sounding board, though, D&D!
Edit: Please don't take the sizes to be intentional! I just don't know how to draw perfect circles in photoshop! And yes, the black text/intersection of the diagram is mostly tongue in cheek
I totally agree, the only thing the mention of rape did for me was highlight just how horrible this guy's situation was.
Which was it's intention I believe.
That image.
Thats it, thread over
Nobody here seems offended that people got offended. That's just some bullshit someone made up to try and make a cute point, but it's pure BS.
People here seem to find it hilarious and pathetic that people got offended in the first place.
You can repeat that lie to make yourself feel better, but it really isn't true at all.
Actually, I think a lot of the reason rape hits people so hard it that they're told their whole lives it is the worst thing that can ever happen to them, worse than death, etc. I think a culture somewhat desensitized to rape would be better for rape victims because of that.
Doesn't mean you get to be disdainful of rape victims or trivialize the pain they are feeling right now without being called out on being a sociopath.
Oh yeah, I totally agree. I know if I actually believed that stuff I'd be called a sociopath (in fact, I was once already) and I'd probably be one.
And actually you answered some of the other questions I threw out there, this is such a bad topic because we make it that way. Not to say that the act itself isn't completely horrible but part of the stigma is because society says so.
I think I'm done with that tangent, any more posts like the previous and I'll have a mob hunting me down.
For someone who never gets upset, you're taking that venn diagram kind of personally. Did it rob your father?
that term was invented by the right as a boogeyman through which they could ridicule any kind of leftist egalitarian policy with which they disagreed
what you perceive as some monster of censorship is actually the realization that language can cause harm, that it can do violence, that it is the most powerful means of establishing and maintaining ideological power.
I have to agree, you aren't saying "OMG, I'm offended." but your words seem to convey it.
Relax nstf, the image is obviously meant as a joke, there's no reason for you to be offended by it.
Well, I'd argue there is a wide gulf between choosing to be 'PC' and being expected or even required to be. If you choose to be, good for you, you're probably a better person than those who don't.
It's the other bit people loathe, and admittedly that second type is much less common and is usually exactly the boogeyman you say.
Edit: And the rest of the time the term is used as a red herring. "Oh no, they're mad because I wasn't PC!" No, we're mad because you said something horribly rascist/sexist/X-ist, fucked up, and untrue.
Potatoninja, you are my favourite ninja
I actually think political correctness is responsible for a lot of good stuff, like making it socially unacceptable (in a major way) to use the n-word inappropriately. A lot of the 'hate' on p.c. comes from hack comedians and closet bigots who want their slurs back.
That said, this is not an appropriate case for censorship, self or otherwise.
Actually it has been aroudn since the 18th century to mean the prevaling political mindset, it was adopted by the liberal counter-culture in the 1970's and then repurposed by the right wingers in the 80-90's. Thankfully for me I have a BS in political science and theory and thus I know it is all bullshit and therefore belong to no party.
I would like to point out as someone who used to work in the crimical justice system, and delt directly with victims of serious crimes, it is rarely the words of the criminals that do the harm.
The problem with being overly PC is that it's way too often used an excuse to shout down things that people dislike, and can be used as some sort of weapon. There is also a ton of "won't someone think of the children" mixed in with it.