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[World of Darkness] V:TM 5E, Tremere still bottom tier.

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Posts

  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    Des

    Edit: I don’t know how this post came about. I will say my biggest barrier to something like Vampire is that while I want to play Vampire, I don’t want to play with the people who want to play Vampire.

    The VTM players I know both locally and on this very board are nothing like that.

    9LlOwgn.png
    Well, good morning. Welcome to the new scenario. What should we do today?
    Edith UpwardsMrVyngaard
  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    Every time I see someone mention how this isn't going to sit well with the WoD fanbase I wonder which fanbase they're looking at. It won't sit well with the writers of the middle iterations/now effectively non-canon editions of the game, but I'm not sure that should be viewed as the same thing.

    More to the point, this is a European company that, while cognizant of the American audience, has made a very conscious effort to ignore that audience (even in their video game development). Mostly because it couldn't produce most of its products if it tried to cater to the prevailing winds of American political discourse. When Paradox acquired White Wolf it was very clear to me they were interested almost entirely in Old World of Darkness and, tangentially, MET. Because the board members at Paradox were all MET players in the European MET Vampire scene.

    To me this is underlined by the fact that their only interaction with the American audience is via dispatch and token presence at the con in New Orleans.

    I would not be surprised by the "revelation" that many of the senior board members are right-wing affiliates in Sweden.

    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
  • Jeep-EepJeep-Eep Registered User regular
    There's signs that something similar happened as with that Star Control fiasco in court right now - they may brought the rights without knowing that OPP existed; they also brought on someone who was IIRC, friends with the CEO, who's been responsible for these nonstop fuckups. Frankly, I think they don't fully understand their market at all, certainly the bits that will actually reliably pay.

  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    edited July 26
    Oh, no. I think you misunderstand. The tabletop licensing, for them, is just gravy. They bought the IP (really cheaply, like 1.3 million USD IIRC) so they could develop video games based on the properties. Ostensibly. Like I said they may have acquired it for the sole purpose of extending MET's license at sweetheart prices and game development is just a nice bonus.

    I don't think they consider tabletop gaming a market. Or, if they do, not one that's significant enough for them to be considered for the purposes of deriving significant value from. Just releasing a modern reskin of Bloodlines would probably net them on the order of 10 magnitudes more money than all of the licensing of the IP for tabletop over its lifetime could generate, assuming Activision wanted to play ball.

    For what it's worth, I'd hesitate to make judgments about what part of the audience is paying (and reliably is a whole different bag of cats). The whole Lucasfilm boat is rocking because the captain utterly misjudged the core component of the franchise's audience. Someone who should have had plenty of market research on that audience. Speculating based on what people who aren't even White Wolf employees assert and opine seems brash by comparison.

    Ardent on
    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
  • Jeep-EepJeep-Eep Registered User regular
    Except that from what I've read, the crunch in VTM 5th ed is just plain terrible too, and they want to convert that to a game? That's a recipe for an utter gong show. They've been trying to launch a transmedia franchise from the RPG, and it has been a total nonstarter, with only a bloody slot machine and some terrible text games to show. Any project where these bumblefucks are left in charge of creatives, or having the final call will be a total mess given the last 3 years; rumor has it that Obsidian was interested in making a game, but bailed at what they were seeing.

  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    I get that you'd like to see them fail but I just don't think Paradox is likely to have financial issues any time in the near future. As I said, my take is that White Wolf isn't really meant to generate profit, it's meant to exist to hold the IP so it can be licensed to MET and for video game development.

    Obsidian has actually said it's not doing any third-party development because it wants to focus on its own IP, so we can dismiss Feargus Urquhart's comments from two years ago (when they were doing third-party development for Paradox on Tyranny). Which were really more "yeah, that might be neat" than "we're totally doing it."

    There's a Werewolf video game in development by Cyanide Studios (which has made the two pretty good Styx games, for reference), but Paradox apparently isn't even bankrolling it, they're letting Focus Home Interactive do that. From a business perspective, they're vastly outdoing CCP in terms of deriving value from the IP.

    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
  • Jeep-EepJeep-Eep Registered User regular
    I ain't saying that Para will fail, I'm saying that there's a reasonable chance that at the current rate, the current white wolf will fuck up bad enough that WoD will become an IP too toxic for folks to want to license - The Get of Fenris is one particular flashpoint, assuming of course, the current WW survives the launch of 5th ed - if they bungle that in current fashion, then it's time to stick a fork in the IP. Also, IIRC, there was talk about after this, starting work on converting the NuWW mechanics for games, thought I am having trouble finding that post.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Jeep-Eep wrote: »
    I ain't saying that Para will fail, I'm saying that there's a reasonable chance that at the current rate, the current white wolf will fuck up bad enough that WoD will become an IP too toxic for folks to want to license - The Get of Fenris is one particular flashpoint, assuming of course, the current WW survives the launch of 5th ed - if they bungle that in current fashion, then it's time to stick a fork in the IP. Also, IIRC, there was talk about after this, starting work on converting the NuWW mechanics for games, thought I am having trouble finding that post.

    I question how much this is percolating out of the active "Not D&D" RPG scene. Lots of folks I know are totally clueless about this whole kerfuffle who would by on board with a Bloodlines computer game in a heartbeat.

  • Jeep-EepJeep-Eep Registered User regular
    When they literally had to deny not being nazis in an article in polygon, that should probably be a watch it for anyone who wants to pay for it. There's real potential for violent blowups in Werewolf.

  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    Jeep-Eep wrote: »
    I ain't saying that Para will fail, I'm saying that there's a reasonable chance that at the current rate, the current white wolf will fuck up bad enough that WoD will become an IP too toxic for folks to want to license - The Get of Fenris is one particular flashpoint, assuming of course, the current WW survives the launch of 5th ed - if they bungle that in current fashion, then it's time to stick a fork in the IP. Also, IIRC, there was talk about after this, starting work on converting the NuWW mechanics for games, thought I am having trouble finding that post.

    I question how much this is percolating out of the active "Not D&D" RPG scene. Lots of folks I know are totally clueless about this whole kerfuffle who would by on board with a Bloodlines computer game in a heartbeat.
    I honestly wasn't even aware of this being an issue at all until someone pointed me to Holden's tweets, which I laughed at, because Holden is about as reliable a source as J. Edgar Hoover's corpse.

    WtA always had nods to fascism because the entire Werewolf society is fascist. The idea that the 20th anniversary edition would touch on Nazism and militant feminism isn't surprising in the least to someone who was familiar with the original material. The only surprising thing thus far is that White Wolf hasn't retaliated by killing the license for Chronicles (which would be part of the regular pattern of behavior of its principles). Although I may be speaking too soon on that.
    Jeep-Eep wrote: »
    When they literally had to deny not being nazis in an article in polygon, that should probably be a watch it for anyone who wants to pay for it. There's real potential for violent blowups in Werewolf.
    Whenever someone accuses you of being a Nazi you literally have to deny it, unless you're actually a Nazi. This has all of the significance of the White House denying that the moon landing was faked. They have to, because it wasn't, and there's no conspiracy to cover-up.

    WtA was sort of like "skinhead anti-establishment ultraviolence, the game" so again I struggle with how this came as a shock to so many people.

    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
  • Jeep-EepJeep-Eep Registered User regular
    As in, it was a credible claim that they were marketing toward that lot - and old WW shifted away from a fair amount of that with revised, to the point of largely rewriting the Get - as I recall, when OldWW was doing werewolf, it was actually fairly accepting of trans folks, which is why this break, as well as the bizarre things about contraceptives and the like in 20th was so odd. There's nods, and then there's what their hamhanded writing is likely to do with WtA 4th ed. And the constant escalating edge is something that will give a liscensor hives, if it risks association of their brand with it when someone googles it and finds, say, this:

    DjJYCvbUUAAnNBe.jpg
    And yes, it's exactly what you think it is, swedrac is saying that vamps did 9/11. I

    Frankly, if I was an IP researcher looking for licenses, I'd advise that anyone who wanted to make a werewolf or vampire game to create their own universe - there's too much potential baggage here, on many different levels - for another thing, I wouldn't want to be seen near the kinds of larps that their ruleset is likely to make. The crowd they are trying to attract are not ones a sensible company wants to be associated with, especially as it's going to shape the metaplot, which means that they might be forced to follow it to places they don't wanna be seen near.

  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    Jeep-Eep wrote: »
    As in, it was a credible claim that they were marketing toward that lot - and old WW shifted away from a fair amount of that with revised, to the point of largely rewriting the Get - as I recall, when OldWW was doing werewolf, it was actually fairly accepting of trans folks, which is why this break, as well as the bizarre things about contraceptives and the like in 20th was so odd. There's nods, and then there's what their hamhanded writing is likely to do with WtA 4th ed. And the constant escalating edge is something that will give a liscensor hives, if it risks association of their brand with it when someone googles it and finds, say, this:
    People say this but as someone who played White Wolf games in the early 1990s I don't think they thought about trans people at all. Most of the people who played White Wolf games certainly didn't. The White Wolf games were only notable in that they acknowledged that there were gay people; that they were tolerated by vampires and not tolerated by most werewolves (because of the primacy of the breeding mandates). I can't recall a single mention of transgender people but I haven't actually read those first- and second-run copies of my books in years. Honestly, 25 years ago it wasn't something most people were even thinking about.

    I also think that general awareness of these issues arrived with the broader internet in the early 2000s, meaning that there's a good chance any implied support beyond the rather tacit admission that alternative lifestyles weren't uncommon among certain groups of supernaturals is down to the interpretations of the individual reader. I also think the manufactured narrative is hyperbolic to say the least.
    Jeep-Eep wrote: »
    Frankly, if I was an IP researcher looking for licenses, I'd advise that anyone who wanted to make a werewolf or vampire game to create their own universe - there's too much potential baggage here, on many different levels - for another thing, I wouldn't want to be seen near the kinds of larps that their ruleset is likely to make. The crowd they are trying to attract are not ones a sensible company wants to be associated with, especially as it's going to shape the metaplot, which means that they might be forced to follow it to places they don't wanna be seen near.
    At this point I'm just going to ignore the "business" discussion as you're choosing to ignore the faults in your own arguments in favor of driving a narrative that is, at best, unrealistic.

    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
    MrVyngaardLanlaorn
  • Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Once an Asshole. Trying to be better. Registered User regular
    Why does it take 30 minutes to figure out your dice pool in made the Awakening?

  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    Why does it take 30 minutes to figure out your dice pool in made the Awakening?

    Is it any different from the rest in that regard?

    9LlOwgn.png
    Well, good morning. Welcome to the new scenario. What should we do today?
  • Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Once an Asshole. Trying to be better. Registered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Why does it take 30 minutes to figure out your dice pool in made the Awakening?

    Is it any different from the rest in that regard?

    VTM plays like dungeon world compare to the glacial pace of MTA. I guess part of the problem is that we were doing a bunch of improve spells instead of doing a few rituals.

  • Jeep-EepJeep-Eep Registered User regular
    edited July 30
    http://gamingtrend.com/feature/reviews/let-sleeping-antediluvians-lie-vampire-the-masquerade-5th-edition-review/

    Some of the first reviews are in. It's not the direst reviews of something I ever seen, but... not complementary. Well, let's be honest, it's pretty shite.

    It's support for theory 2 I had last page.

    Jeep-Eep on
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Why does it take 30 minutes to figure out your dice pool in made the Awakening?

    Is it any different from the rest in that regard?

    VTM plays like dungeon world compare to the glacial pace of MTA. I guess part of the problem is that we were doing a bunch of improve spells instead of doing a few rituals.

    Improv always makes things messy.

    9LlOwgn.png
    Well, good morning. Welcome to the new scenario. What should we do today?
    MrVyngaard
  • Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Once an Asshole. Trying to be better. Registered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Why does it take 30 minutes to figure out your dice pool in made the Awakening?

    Is it any different from the rest in that regard?

    VTM plays like dungeon world compare to the glacial pace of MTA. I guess part of the problem is that we were doing a bunch of improve spells instead of doing a few rituals.

    Improv always makes things messy.

    Yeah, we kind of learn that we suppose to spend a few days planning and doing rituals. Instead of saying 'let's go there now and get the thing. We're mages, what can stop magic?'

  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Why does it take 30 minutes to figure out your dice pool in made the Awakening?

    Is it any different from the rest in that regard?

    VTM plays like dungeon world compare to the glacial pace of MTA. I guess part of the problem is that we were doing a bunch of improve spells instead of doing a few rituals.

    Improv always makes things messy.

    Yeah, we kind of learn that we suppose to spend a few days planning and doing rituals. Instead of saying 'let's go there now and get the thing. We're mages, what can stop magic?'

    The Abyss is pretty good at it.

    9LlOwgn.png
    Well, good morning. Welcome to the new scenario. What should we do today?
  • NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    The Geist 2e Kickstarter is in it's last day. The full ready manuscript has been released to backers and it is much improved on 1st edition. It's also oddly perhaps the most hopeful CoD game right now, with the assumption that the PCs are proactive and can improve the setting baked in.

  • Casually HardcoreCasually Hardcore Once an Asshole. Trying to be better. Registered User regular
    Does anyone know how to make a familiar in Mage the Awakening 2nd edition? The core rulebook has it all very vague. Is there a book that goes more in depth on familiars?

  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    Does anyone know how to make a familiar in Mage the Awakening 2nd edition? The core rulebook has it all very vague. Is there a book that goes more in depth on familiars?

    For 2E? No idea, but there's a billion expansions for 1E. I feel like it has more than any of the big 3. If I had to guess, probably Sanctum and Sigil or Storyteller's Guide.

    Summoners is an essential one, too.

    9LlOwgn.png
    Well, good morning. Welcome to the new scenario. What should we do today?
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited July 30
    There are rules for familiars in Book of Shadows: Mage Player's guide but I'm not clear on version differences.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    Just have a black cat named Salem, that always works out.

    9LlOwgn.png
    Well, good morning. Welcome to the new scenario. What should we do today?
  • Jeep-EepJeep-Eep Registered User regular
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    Jeep-Eep wrote: »

    As a Pyramid supporter, this offends me.

    9LlOwgn.png
    Well, good morning. Welcome to the new scenario. What should we do today?
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    I gotta say, the cover is gorgeous.

    DjspXkmW0AAQI37.jpg

    9LlOwgn.png
    Well, good morning. Welcome to the new scenario. What should we do today?
    BrainleechNyht
  • BrainleechBrainleech Registered User regular
    That's the print on demand one?

  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    edited August 4
    Is it gorgeous?


    Endless_Serpents on
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited August 4
    Where does V5 split off from the oWoD timeline?

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Never do what your enemy expects you to do! Registered User regular
    august wrote: »
    Where does V5 split off from the oWoD timeline?

    Isn't it supposed to take place after Gehenna/Apocolypse/Ascension/insert end time here?

  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    edited August 4
    No idea but I think it would be extremely difficult to run a game in a world resembling our own after most of the End Times scenarios presented in any of the final cWoD sourcebooks.

    august on
    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    Jeep-Eep wrote: »
    It is fractally stupid, but not for the reason Holden thinks.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant

    Formally founded in 1999, active in Iraq from 2001 onward.

    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
  • Jeep-EepJeep-Eep Registered User regular
    edited August 4
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    I gotta say, the cover is gorgeous.



    Beauty is only skin deep in this case - apparently the art direction is a disjointed dumpster fire along with layout, writing and rules (The last being the least shit). A goddamn amateurish mess.
    Ardent wrote: »
    Jeep-Eep wrote: »
    It is fractally stupid, but not for the reason Holden thinks.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant

    Formally founded in 1999, active in Iraq from 2001 onward.

    That was actually brought up in the thread.

    edit:


    Double and fucked up edit:

    Jeep-Eep on
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    Jeep-Eep wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    I gotta say, the cover is gorgeous.



    Beauty is only skin deep in this case - apparently the art direction is a disjointed dumpster fire along with layout, writing and rules (The last being the least shit). A goddamn amateurish mess.
    Ardent wrote: »
    Jeep-Eep wrote: »
    It is fractally stupid, but not for the reason Holden thinks.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant

    Formally founded in 1999, active in Iraq from 2001 onward.

    That was actually brought up in the thread.

    edit:


    Double and fucked up edit:

    Jesus.

    9LlOwgn.png
    Well, good morning. Welcome to the new scenario. What should we do today?
  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    I mean, it's required to credit the author if you're going to use their work. White Wolf has the license to the work via work-for-hire. Nothing about this strikes me as unusual, except they apparently didn't bother to let Gaiman know.

    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
  • augustaugust where you come from is gone Registered User regular
    But they changed what he wrote, which sounds weird.

    Pac Man's character is difficult to explain even to the Japanese -- he is an innocent character. He hasn't been educated to discern between good and evil. He acts more like a small child than a grown-up person. Think of him as a child learning in the course of his daily activities. If someone tells him guns are evil, he would be the type to rush out and eat guns. But he would most probably eat any gun, even the pistols of policemen who need them.
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    Ardent wrote: »
    I mean, it's required to credit the author if you're going to use their work. White Wolf has the license to the work via work-for-hire. Nothing about this strikes me as unusual, except they apparently didn't bother to let Gaiman know.

    I mean the second thing.

    9LlOwgn.png
    Well, good morning. Welcome to the new scenario. What should we do today?
  • Jeep-EepJeep-Eep Registered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Ardent wrote: »
    I mean, it's required to credit the author if you're going to use their work. White Wolf has the license to the work via work-for-hire. Nothing about this strikes me as unusual, except they apparently didn't bother to let Gaiman know.

    I mean the second thing.

    I'm told that a lot of larp groups have distanced themselves from WW over some fuckery involving the LARP scene - this gives even more reason to keep a distance. I know that if I ever set up a gaming cafe, VTM 5th is going to be explicitly banned from the premises.

  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    Jeep-Eep wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Ardent wrote: »
    I mean, it's required to credit the author if you're going to use their work. White Wolf has the license to the work via work-for-hire. Nothing about this strikes me as unusual, except they apparently didn't bother to let Gaiman know.

    I mean the second thing.

    I'm told that a lot of larp groups have distanced themselves from WW over some fuckery involving the LARP scene - this gives even more reason to keep a distance. I know that if I ever set up a gaming cafe, VTM 5th is going to be explicitly banned from the premises.

    I'll just stick to old rules like I always have.

    9LlOwgn.png
    Well, good morning. Welcome to the new scenario. What should we do today?
    MrVyngaard
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