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Size Discrimination: Legit cause or just angry fatties?
Peen
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I've been hearing more about this lately and I'm genuinely curious about what people on here think. There's a movement afoot, albeit on the fringes of serious discussion, to get heavyset people added as a protected class. They feel like they're being unfairly treated and that they shouldn't pay a social or sometimes monetary penalty for their size. From the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance's website:
"Fat people are discriminated against in all aspects of daily life, from employment to education to access to public accommodations, and even access to adequate medical care. This discrimination occurs despite evidence that 95 to 98 percent of diets fail over five years and that 65 million Americans are labeled “obese.” Our thin-obsessed society firmly believes that fat people are at fault for their size and it is politically correct to stigmatize and ridicule them. Fat discrimination is one of the last publicly accepted discriminatory practices. Fat people have rights and they need to be upheld!"
Thing is, I think it's hogwash. I think you have a personal right to be overweight, sure. But I think there are a lot of reasons not to be and I just don't buy that it's something people don't have any control over. I don't think it would be fair for an extremely heavy person to take up two seats and use as much fuel as two average people on an airplane and not have to pay for them. I think the public health cost of obesity is well documented and a serious problem because now you're not just exercising your right to be fat but actually incurring a measurable cost on society and your fellow taxpayers.
So what do you guys think? Is it fair for fat people to have to pay a reasonable cost for their size? Or is it genuine discrimination that action should be taken to prevent?
"Fat people are discriminated against in all aspects of daily life, from employment to education to access to public accommodations, and even access to adequate medical care. This discrimination occurs despite evidence that 95 to 98 percent of diets fail over five years and that 65 million Americans are labeled “obese.” Our thin-obsessed society firmly believes that fat people are at fault for their size and it is politically correct to stigmatize and ridicule them. Fat discrimination is one of the last publicly accepted discriminatory practices. Fat people have rights and they need to be upheld!"
Thing is, I think it's hogwash. I think you have a personal right to be overweight, sure. But I think there are a lot of reasons not to be and I just don't buy that it's something people don't have any control over. I don't think it would be fair for an extremely heavy person to take up two seats and use as much fuel as two average people on an airplane and not have to pay for them. I think the public health cost of obesity is well documented and a serious problem because now you're not just exercising your right to be fat but actually incurring a measurable cost on society and your fellow taxpayers.
So what do you guys think? Is it fair for fat people to have to pay a reasonable cost for their size? Or is it genuine discrimination that action should be taken to prevent?
Peen on
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Airlines frankly need to stop shrinking seats. They can be extremely uncomfortable even for thin people.
So if you're large enough to need two seats, you shouldn't have to pay for two seats?
Let's just summarize the main points of the next 50 pages:
- Fat people should be treated with respect because they are human beings.
- Some people find fatness disgusting. That does not give them a right to be an asshole about it.
- The idea that fat people should somehow be protected and/or that fatness should be encouraged as a reasonable lifestyle choice is pretty dumb.
- There are some fit fat people, they are not the norm.
- Having a free second seat is pretty bullshit, but paying full price for a second seat without all the perks (double luggage capacity, double carryon capacity, two meals, etc.) is also bullshit.
- Fat people do cost more in medical care but so do people with a lot of other problems. Some self-induced, some by nature. It's hard to draw a line that fat people should be treated differently with regards to health care.
Thanks Asiina.
Part of the trouble with any talk of health care or economic equality is that it can often be a fine line between success and failure -- and past the line is a cliff. You can say things like "Fat people use more health care than I do, so they should pay more," until you get in a car crash, lose a limb and the ability to work in your profession, and realize that you are utterly dependent on the government (and are using WAY more of the limited resource of "health care" compared to "normal" people). It's the same with economic arguments, although there is actually a rationale behind it. Airplane seats are a great example, actually, because they are not just a limited resource, but have certain space limitations inherent in their design. If you do not fit in a seat, you need to purchase another seat -- which is no different from traveling with a toddler or a large musical instrument. Just like if you can't fit all your stuff into a carry-on bag, you need to check it, and potentially pay more money.
For many other economic and social elements, catering to the very overweight doesn't carry any more work than catering to the elderly or sick. Sure, you see fat people on the motorized carts in Walmart, but you also see old people and people with busted legs/feet.
Probably don't wanna hire Fatty McFourchins to work as a personal trainer at the gym.
But do you really give two shits if he sits at a desk inputting data all day if he's a big dude?
People who have issues with their thyroid gland come to mind right off the bat. Metabolism plays a huge part obviously. Not sure why you think a healthy diet = guaranteed not obesity.
You will if you're a small company and his eventual heart attack causes your group premiums to skyrocket so as to be unaffordable, causing the company to have to scale back benefits.
That's adapted from a true story not involving Fatty McFourchins, FWIW.
Note I'm not in favor of such hiring practices, but it is a real concern in some situations.
This.
If we're going to make fat people pay more per seat on an airplane or something, then, we should be charging people per each weight and not just fat people over a certain imaginary threshold or something silly like that. Don't half ass it, pardon the pun.
Steroid-based transplants come to mind immediately.
Well if they're stuck in a USDA mindset that corn, fruit juice, and potatoes are healthy and only look at the amount of fat in what they eat and don't consider things like sugar at all, look out the window you'll probably see one or five of them
The USA has horrendous nutritional education, I've been eating "Healthy" for a decade but only stopped being obese when I visited these forums and learned that there's a difference between what they tell you is healthy and what actually is
This is America, in which psychological issues just make you weak and a nonperson
Nah, not really. Part of the price of the ticket comes from how much fuel each person's going to account for which is a weight based average; it's same reason there's weight restrictions on luggage, each person's bags can only weigh so much for the amount of fuel the plane carries. If you're taking up more than your allotted share then you should pay for it, although I'd be fine with discounts for skinny people.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
That's why I got fat in the first place. I was actually very underweight and then ballooned up. I've been rid of most of it, but damnit that made me super pissed. Nobody even told me the medicine would make me gain weight!
Asiina summed it up, basically. Fat discrimination is stupid, but so is the idea that it's a totally legit way to live.
Yes but that guy in great shape can get hit by a car on his morning jog.
That chick who does yoga could have a food allergy that she didn't know about.
The mail guy could smoke and eventually get lung cancer.
To claim it's relevant enough to legislate one way or another is just asinine.
Fatties don't need special rules for or against them in the average work place.
I was a skinny child until the doctors told my mom I had ADD and filled me full of meds
It's crazy the ammount of people that think [strike]a big ball of starch covered in butter[/strike] potatoes are healthy.
This and fruit juice, I was with friends and one of them was talking about how her daughter was overweight so she switched her to fruit juice instead of soda and kept insisting I was wrong when i told her its practically the same goddamn thing
Yes, and?
Fatty McFourchins has outward indicators of a what is frequently a lifestyle choice that greatly increases the chance of major illnesses. I can understand why someone that would be directly affected by their health concerns choosing not to hire them.
But!
Then I would say, that's a terrible way to make a hiring decision, as there's a likelihood that one of the outwardly healthy employees (or their spouses, who have nothing to do with the work place but also affect premiums!) may suffer a heart attack or stroke, or come down with a degenerative disease of some sort, which would have the same effect as Fatty having a heart attack due to his lifestyle choices!
Also I would point out the broader policy implication of screening people for employment (or health care, or whatever) based on what may be a genetic predisposition is a terrible idea!
So while I can understand someones reservations with hiring Fatty, I wouldn't condone it and would try to convince them otherwise! Perhaps using facts about disease incidence rates!
At the same time, there's no logical reason why overweight people should, on average, have harder times landing a job or getting a pay raise than not-overweight people.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I like your work.
I also think that in some situations being over weight can be a disability, but that is for a medical specialist to assess and in which case, someone who is so disabled should be given the benefit of disability protection legislation. THat is sort of how it works in the UK and in my experience most over weight people would not meet the legal definitions of disability in any event, so it isn't like they are abusing the system or their employers to any noticeable degree.
The only real way to outlaw such discrimination would be to ban discrimination based on personal appearance in general. But, again, that's wholly subjective.
This is, basically, people demanding that their lifestyle decisions be protected by law. It's nonsense. People who have a legitimate disability are already covered by the ADA. A love of cheese-steaks and Twinkies is not a legitimate disability.
Rigorous Scholarship
So the average would both account for skinny people and fat people. Thus, you wouldn't need to do anything. Now, that said, if someone is so large that they need multiple seats, then yes, they should have to pay for both.
Giving a skinny person a discount is stupid, you might as well just charge a "weight" fee on the ticket when they're measured at the gate.
Marital status is a protected class in US discrimination law.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
If a fat person sits in their seat and overflows to another seat so that it can't be used comfortably by another passenger, it seems fair to charge them for that seat (in a situation where the flight is sold out).
Rigorous Scholarship
Kevin Smith was charged for two seats, he is not that fat
I suppose that's what he gets for trying to fly coach in the first place. :P
Seriously though, he should not have any trouble fitting in first class seats.
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Well yeah, I think it was pretty clear to anyone who read the facts that that was a case of someone(s) on Southwest's side being a giant asshole to both Smith and that other woman.
If you can easily put the armrests down, the airline has no business charging you for an extra seat.
Those are pretty accurate from the last time I remember flying. That guy fits into them rather nicely. You really have to be pretty big to not fit in them.
That is all.
Of course, the mass of the plane itself makes the mass of the passengers fairly trivial. Now, volume is a big issue, as you only have your allotted space. Either you fit in your seat or you don't.