Hey guys, just popping in to say that having someone attempt to murder your congresswoman is a strange experience. I truly hope this does not happen again.
And yeah, come 2012 there absolutely will be Arizonans showing up to political rallies with guns.
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
and we like the hiring binge thing.
no really, we do. in the long run. not the cause, but in the long run.
You guys may be affecting my jaded/cynical level but one of the random thoughts through my head yesterday was 'oh great, now the right wing crazies will claim they've saved unemployment.'
and then i smacked myself upside the head and went back to feeling just plain crappy about the whole thing
well, the guy was clearly unstable and his political ideology was clearly nonsensical and drawn from all over the place.
i think that a lot of us have kind of grimaced over the past few years every time some blowhard started going on about "second amendment remedies" or "the blood of patriots" or various gun metaphors. i think that a lot of us have recoiled a little when some fanatics brought guns to political rallies - even if not for actual peril then for the symbology and message it sends.
the question is not whether the guy was literally doing the bidding of palin or beck or whoever else. he clearly was not. the question is whether the toxic and violent political environment that has been spearheaded and endorsed by these sorts of politicians and demagogues might have influenced the vector of this guy's insanity.
and from what i know of southwest politics, i find it nearly impossible to believe that it did not.
The worst thing is, this very fact is likely going to be why it won't be addressed honestly or frankly. "Conservative" commentators will take any denouncement as a personal affront as if they're being targeted as accomplices in this horrifying act because sane people are suggesting that you shouldn't tell people to murder your opponents. 20 people get shot and somehow they're the victim in all this. Words don't have power...except when they're espoused by the liberal media on a smear campaign against the right.
1. Those sheets are not 4" apart as they will be in a normal house.
2. Many houses built these days have insulation in interior walls for sound deadening.
4. Being that those sheet are so close together, you may penetrate 1 wall, but I doubt the pellets are going to maintain enough velocity to travel another 10' thru the air, and penetrate another wall, then another 10', and another wall etc etc.
Also, you underestimate the value of psychological warfare. You have people breaking into someone's house, and they here someone chambering a shotgun. The first thought in their heads is going to get GET THE HELL OUT!
I have been doing Security and Security consultations for 10 years. Physical Security, Self Defense, and Home Defense are my specialties. As a matter of fact, I am board certified with ASIS International as a Physical Security Professional. What's your background?
1. And what prey tell do you expect to cause a loss of penetration in the air between the walls?
2. Many houses, not all. Some houses may have bullet proof glass mounted between the walls.
4
Moreover http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12.htm oh look insulation had little to no effect.
The problem is what is intimidating from a couple police officers, and what is intimidating at 3 am to an unknown number of intruders on an unknown number of chemicals are completely different. Moreover suggested that after expending some where between 5 and 8 shots that will go through pretty much your entire house that you should rely on your shotgun as a club is just dangerously ignorant.
The reality is that the majority of the posters on this forum are not very familiar with firearms. They read someone spouting out how shotgun shots wont penetrate walls (false) or just the sound of a gun is more that sufficient to scare of multiple intruders is just dangerous disinformation, and what you are saying just flat out wrong.
It may not be the thread, but to me it is important that those ignorant of firearms not be further burdened with disinformation while the political vultures on both sides try and capitalize on this tragedy.
The sound thing is very much true. My history teacher scared off a fair number of rednecks who were coming to at least beat him up because they thought he was in the south to demonstrate for civil rights. He didn't even mean to pump it, he was just rushing to get his pants on while holding the pump in one hand. He tripped, the butt hit the floor, and the lynch mob heard the sound through the open window.
Personally, I like my spear. Nobody fucks with a guy with a spear (and two swords, a club, and a bow with arrows, not to mention the unipod).
Edit: Note to self: always read the last page. I think I'll leave the post though, just because it's a cool story.
I wonder how many people will be waving their guns around at the opposition's political rallies in 2012.
This is a fantastic point.
Doesn't this make all those folks showing up to political rallies with guns look like douche bags right about now?
It was wrong when they did it, and its doubly wrong now.
They won't see it that way (maybe).
Because they're not crazy. They're not going to shoot anybody. And what right do you have to infringe upon my gun rights just cause some kid lost his marbles down in arizona? I can carry if I want to, It's my right. And I'm not gonna shoot nobody.*
*spoken from a gun owner who would carry a gun to a political rally.
Right, they are just drawing secret service and police attention away from the crazy person who isn't wearing his gun in plain sight.
The sad truth is, this might just be the death of the town hall, or the open senator and representative offices in DC. And that is a damn shame.
If the secret service is there then anyone remotely near the person they're protecting has been through a metal detector.
I wonder how many people will be waving their guns around at the opposition's political rallies in 2012.
This is a fantastic point.
Doesn't this make all those folks showing up to political rallies with guns look like douche bags right about now?
It was wrong when they did it, and its doubly wrong now.
They won't see it that way (maybe).
Because they're not crazy. They're not going to shoot anybody. And what right do you have to infringe upon my gun rights just cause some kid lost his marbles down in arizona? I can carry if I want to, It's my right. And I'm not gonna shoot nobody.*
*spoken from a gun owner who would carry a gun to a political rally.
Right, they are just drawing secret service and police attention away from the crazy person who isn't wearing his gun in plain sight.
The sad truth is, this might just be the death of the town hall, or the open senator and representative offices in DC. And that is a damn shame.
If the secret service is there then anyone remotely near the person they're protecting has been through a metal detector.
Except for along the parade routes.
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
i'm sure by now that parade routes have closed cars.
although i could be wrong, i didn't go to my local parade last year when the politicians all come out (week before halloween). So maybe not. I know Rep Carey always used to ride an elephant through the parade.
There is a distinct difference in the matter of agency - wishing for someone to become a murderer in order to accomplish your desires.
That said, it's still generally an unworthy thought.
"I hope X dies" isn't a specific enough statement to eliminate the possibility of murder as the cause of death. Somebody who says "I hope X dies" instead of, say, "I wish X would retire" doesn't care how the death happens. The end result is what's important to them.
It doesn't matter, because the moral difference isn't that you need to actively rule out the possibility of violence. The moral difference is that you shouldn't be actively encouraging violence in the first place.
There is a distinct difference in the matter of agency - wishing for someone to become a murderer in order to accomplish your desires.
That said, it's still generally an unworthy thought.
"I hope X dies" isn't a specific enough statement to eliminate the possibility of murder as the cause of death. Somebody who says "I hope X dies" instead of, say, "I wish X would retire" doesn't care how the death happens. The end result is what's important to them.
It doesn't matter, because the moral difference isn't that you need to actively rule out the possibility of violence. The moral difference is that you shouldn't be actively encouraging violence in the first place.
So you would be see nothing wrong with Glenn Beck beginning every show with "Good morning America, I hope Barack Obama dies."?
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
Kinda, Styro. Yeah.
because Glenn Beck, in difference to say, me, has a platform and devoted listeners.
I've never really wished anybody to die, either the abusive ex boyfriends to sarah palin. ok, so I did wish for Timothy McVeigh's death, but i think that's a special case.
but still, I'm not a powerful voice or a powerful influence. Glenn Beck is. He reaches more people than I ever will.
It's a nuance, it's a muddy grey nuance, but it's there.
There is a distinct difference in the matter of agency - wishing for someone to become a murderer in order to accomplish your desires.
That said, it's still generally an unworthy thought.
"I hope X dies" isn't a specific enough statement to eliminate the possibility of murder as the cause of death. Somebody who says "I hope X dies" instead of, say, "I wish X would retire" doesn't care how the death happens. The end result is what's important to them.
It doesn't matter, because the moral difference isn't that you need to actively rule out the possibility of violence. The moral difference is that you shouldn't be actively encouraging violence in the first place.
So you would be see nothing wrong with Glenn Beck beginning every show with "Good morning America, I hope Barack Obama dies."?
I would certainly prefer that to him saying "Good morning America, someone should kill Barack Obama."
There is a distinct difference in the matter of agency - wishing for someone to become a murderer in order to accomplish your desires.
That said, it's still generally an unworthy thought.
"I hope X dies" isn't a specific enough statement to eliminate the possibility of murder as the cause of death. Somebody who says "I hope X dies" instead of, say, "I wish X would retire" doesn't care how the death happens. The end result is what's important to them.
It doesn't matter, because the moral difference isn't that you need to actively rule out the possibility of violence. The moral difference is that you shouldn't be actively encouraging violence in the first place.
So you would be see nothing wrong with Glenn Beck beginning every show with "Good morning America, I hope Barack Obama dies."?
I would certainly prefer that to him saying "Good morning America, someone should kill Barack Obama."
When you have that kind of audience and that kind of following I don't see much of a distinction.
i'm sure by now that parade routes have closed cars.
although i could be wrong, i didn't go to my local parade last year when the politicians all come out (week before halloween). So maybe not. I know Rep Carey always used to ride an elephant through the parade.
I wonder if he still does.
I think you mean John Carney, former Lt. Gov. and current representative?
There is a distinct difference in the matter of agency - wishing for someone to become a murderer in order to accomplish your desires.
That said, it's still generally an unworthy thought.
"I hope X dies" isn't a specific enough statement to eliminate the possibility of murder as the cause of death. Somebody who says "I hope X dies" instead of, say, "I wish X would retire" doesn't care how the death happens. The end result is what's important to them.
It doesn't matter, because the moral difference isn't that you need to actively rule out the possibility of violence. The moral difference is that you shouldn't be actively encouraging violence in the first place.
So you would be see nothing wrong with Glenn Beck beginning every show with "Good morning America, I hope Barack Obama dies."?
1) Presidents usually don't die in office, nor do they retire because they're close to dying. The same in not true for the supreme court. When President's die in office, it's almost always due to assassination.
2) What shows have the moral equivalent of wishing Scalia to die at every opening? I'm not sure the equivalence you're trying to draw here.
There is a distinct difference in the matter of agency - wishing for someone to become a murderer in order to accomplish your desires.
That said, it's still generally an unworthy thought.
"I hope X dies" isn't a specific enough statement to eliminate the possibility of murder as the cause of death. Somebody who says "I hope X dies" instead of, say, "I wish X would retire" doesn't care how the death happens. The end result is what's important to them.
It doesn't matter, because the moral difference isn't that you need to actively rule out the possibility of violence. The moral difference is that you shouldn't be actively encouraging violence in the first place.
So you would be see nothing wrong with Glenn Beck beginning every show with "Good morning America, I hope Barack Obama dies."?
1) Presidents usually don't die in office, nor do they retire because they're close to dying. The same in not true for the supreme court. When President's die in office, it's almost always due to assassination.
2) What shows have the moral equivalent of wishing Scalia to die at every opening? I'm not sure the equivalence you're trying to draw here.
I'm not trying to draw any equivalence to anything.
I wonder if the congresswoman's own views concerning guns will change after this.
When people are attacked by dogs, they tend to be uneasy around dogs for a while. When people are in big car wrecks, sometimes they can't get behind the wheel again right away. Maybe not a 180, but it'll be something to note how she feels about tighter gun control laws and background checks after this whole ordeal.
I disagree but we should just say that wishing Scalia would die is in poor taste without trying to determine just how much worse (if at all) it is to say that someone should kill him.
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Handsome CostanzaAsk me about 8bitdoRIP Iwata-sanRegistered Userregular
There is a distinct difference in the matter of agency - wishing for someone to become a murderer in order to accomplish your desires.
That said, it's still generally an unworthy thought.
"I hope X dies" isn't a specific enough statement to eliminate the possibility of murder as the cause of death. Somebody who says "I hope X dies" instead of, say, "I wish X would retire" doesn't care how the death happens. The end result is what's important to them.
It doesn't matter, because the moral difference isn't that you need to actively rule out the possibility of violence. The moral difference is that you shouldn't be actively encouraging violence in the first place.
So you would be see nothing wrong with Glenn Beck beginning every show with "Good morning America, I hope Barack Obama dies."?
So you're saying that you don't care that Glenn Beck raped and murdered a young girl in 1990?
edit: every time I refresh D&D I see the thread title and misread it as saying RIP Giffords. Two things go through my brain. One that the senator has died. And two that Frank and Kathy Lee were in a car accident.
There is no moral difference between hoping somebody dies for political gain, and hoping somebody dies in a specific manner for political gain.
There is no moral difference between hoping that the uptight boss gets laid every now and then and learns to lighten up, and hoping that the boss gets raped.
1) Presidents usually don't die in office, nor do they retire because they're close to dying. The same in not true for the supreme court. When President's die in office, it's almost always due to assassination.
This isn't true.
Harrison
Taylor
Lincoln
Garfield
Harding
FDR
JFK
4/7
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Supreme Court justices don't usually die in office either. Out of the 103 previous to the justices currently sitting, only about 30 died while holding the position.
Either way, it's irrelevant. Death is not the only way a justice leaves the Supreme Court.
Supreme Court justices don't usually die in office either. Out of the 103 previous to the justices currently sitting, only about 30 died while holding the position.
Either way, it's irrelevant. Death is not the only way a justice leaves the Supreme Court.
Yes, they can also retire.
Which usually happens when they get close to dying.
And 30% mortality rate is pretty high.
Especially when I assume that all of deaths were of natural causes, not assassinations.
And when you consider that people rarely die out of the blue. Their health usually takes a downturn before that.
So where exactly is the threat of violence?
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
I wonder if the congresswoman's own views concerning guns will change after this.
When people are attacked by dogs, they tend to be uneasy around dogs for a while. When people are in big car wrecks, sometimes they can't get behind the wheel again right away. Maybe not a 180, but it'll be something to note how she feels about tighter gun control laws and background checks after this whole ordeal.
Jim Brady (of the "Brady Bill") was a pro-gun Reagan staffer (he might have been chief of staff) and was shot in the head i think by John Henkley. He survived and as it turned out his views on the primacy and absoluteness of the second amendment changed.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
edited January 2011
there is something a little morbid about the way people look at the supreme court seats, but i guess the nature of the job these is that people almost never leave the job until they are so old and infirm that they just can't do the job capably anymore. o'connor was a rare modern exception.
i guess when i've heard people talking about supreme court justices dying i've never read into it wistfulness for assassination.
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Magus`The fun has been DOUBLED!Registered Userregular
I wonder if the congresswoman's own views concerning guns will change after this.
When people are attacked by dogs, they tend to be uneasy around dogs for a while. When people are in big car wrecks, sometimes they can't get behind the wheel again right away. Maybe not a 180, but it'll be something to note how she feels about tighter gun control laws and background checks after this whole ordeal.
Jim Brady (of the "Brady Bill") was a pro-gun Reagan staffer (he might have been chief of staff) and was shot in the head i think by John Henkley. He survived and as it turned out his views on the primacy and absoluteness of the second amendment changed.
Seems it made him become a bit more high caliber in his character?
there is something a little morbid about the way people look at the supreme court seats, but i guess the nature of the job these is that people almost never leave the job until they are so old and infirm that they just can't do the job capably anymore. o'connor was a rare modern exception.
i guess when i've heard people talking about supreme court justices dying i've never read into it wistfulness for assassination.
When somebody says, "I wish x would die", they're not saying "I wish x would happily live out the rest of their days and die peacefully in their sleep."
They want x to die right now, and that inherently means they're wishing for an untimely demise by whatever means available, whether it be choking on a cracker, gunman, or falling and breaking their neck. And that's just as disgusting as outright saying someone should be shot.
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Magus`The fun has been DOUBLED!Registered Userregular
SCOTUS is different for obvious reasons. Those 9 people have massive relevance to politics and if the party who appointed them isn't in power the only way they're leaving is if they die. It's morbid and not particularly polite I'll admit, but if Scalia has to die for Citizens United to be overturned? Because that is the single most damaging Supreme Court decision since like... Plessy?
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I wonder if the congresswoman's own views concerning guns will change after this.
When people are attacked by dogs, they tend to be uneasy around dogs for a while. When people are in big car wrecks, sometimes they can't get behind the wheel again right away. Maybe not a 180, but it'll be something to note how she feels about tighter gun control laws and background checks after this whole ordeal.
Jim Brady (of the "Brady Bill") was a pro-gun Reagan staffer (he might have been chief of staff) and was shot in the head i think by John Henkley. He survived and as it turned out his views on the primacy and absoluteness of the second amendment changed.
Seems it made him become a bit more high caliber in his character?
Actually given the quality of the gun control regulation he came up with, how poorly thought out it was, and how ineffective you are more likely to assume he had brain damage.
SCOTUS is different for obvious reasons. Those 9 people have massive relevance to politics and if the party who appointed them isn't in power the only way they're leaving is if they die. It's morbid and not particularly polite I'll admit, but if Scalia has to die for Citizens United to be overturned? Because that is the single most damaging Supreme Court decision since like... Plessy?
SCOTUS is different for obvious reasons. Those 9 people have massive relevance to politics and if the party who appointed them isn't in power the only way they're leaving is if they die. It's morbid and not particularly polite I'll admit, but if Scalia has to die for Citizens United to be overturned? Because that is the single most damaging Supreme Court decision since like... Plessy?
First of all, I've already shown how it's not true that a Supreme Court justice will ever only vacate a seat by dying. It doesn't even happen a majority of the time.
Second of all, you are directly calling for the death of a person because you disagree with them politically.
Yeah, that's just so much more moral than outright saying "Scalia should be shot."
there is something a little morbid about the way people look at the supreme court seats, but i guess the nature of the job these is that people almost never leave the job until they are so old and infirm that they just can't do the job capably anymore. o'connor was a rare modern exception.
i guess when i've heard people talking about supreme court justices dying i've never read into it wistfulness for assassination.
When somebody says, "I wish x would die", they're not saying "I wish x would happily live out the rest of their days and die peacefully in their sleep."
They want x to die right now, and that inherently means they're wishing for an untimely demise by whatever means available, whether it be choking on a cracker, gunman, or falling and breaking their neck. And that's just as disgusting as outright saying someone should be shot.
I hope that the Seahawks win the next game.
By your logic, that means that I'm secretly hoping that someone murders the opposing team's quarterback in his sleep.
I hope to gain a million dollars.
By your logic, that means that I'm hoping that someone murders my parents tomorrow so that I can cash out on their life insurance policy.
Seriously, you're stretching. Supreme Court Justices are appointed for life. That means that if a Supreme Court Justice decides not to retire, then your only recourse is to wait until he dies. There is no other option. This isn't like an elected official, where you can wait until they get voted out, or until term limits kick in.
And why should anyone count on the fact that the SCOTUS will arbitrarily decide to retire? It's not like they have a history of making decisions that you agree with.
SCOTUS is different for obvious reasons. Those 9 people have massive relevance to politics and if the party who appointed them isn't in power the only way they're leaving is if they die. It's morbid and not particularly polite I'll admit, but if Scalia has to die for Citizens United to be overturned? Because that is the single most damaging Supreme Court decision since like... Plessy?
First of all, I've already shown how it's not true that a Supreme Court justice will ever only vacate a seat by dying. It doesn't even happen a majority of the time.
Second of all, you are directly calling for the death of a person because you disagree with them politically.
Yeah, that's just so much more moral than outright saying "Scalia should be shot."
He's not calling for his death or saying Scalia should be shot though. He's saying he hopes he dies which is entirely different if still callous and a bit offputting. But Supreme Court judges are elected for life and until Scalia decides to retire, or dies, he's going to be on the court and making decisions. Realistically there's nothing anyone on this board can do about it except express a wish he stops adjudicating as soon as possible. Someone could write, for instance, "I hope he retires soon." But its more doubtful he will retire than die and many people are not given to being overly kind when they heavily disagree with someone.
Its not like he's threatening him or anything. So it is more moral in absolute terms, even if people find it distasteful.
It's a fairly quick moral trip from "I hope he dies for public policy reasons" to "somebody ought to kill him for public policy reasons."
Remember that conservative christian dude whose name currently escapes me who told his followers to pray for liberal supreme court justices to die a few years ago?
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it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Right I really hope he has a profound crisis of conscience when BP (or whoever) buys the Senators from lets say... Louisiana who then block all investigations into the Gulf Spill and realizes what a colossally horrible human being he is and resigns... buuuuuuut
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
i'm sure by now that parade routes have closed cars.
although i could be wrong, i didn't go to my local parade last year when the politicians all come out (week before halloween). So maybe not. I know Rep Carey always used to ride an elephant through the parade.
I wonder if he still does.
I think you mean John Carney, former Lt. Gov. and current representative?
no, it was definitely Carey....
Or maybe it was Carper. It's been years since I went to the parade, probably about 11 or so.
also...
Delaware hasn't had a 2nd seat in congress since 1823. Somehow, that depresses me. :P
But anyways, one of the national figures from Delaware used to come to my local halloween parade and ride on an elephant. And mike Castle would dress up as Frankenstein and walk in the parade too.
SCOTUS is different for obvious reasons. Those 9 people have massive relevance to politics and if the party who appointed them isn't in power the only way they're leaving is if they die. It's morbid and not particularly polite I'll admit, but if Scalia has to die for Citizens United to be overturned? Because that is the single most damaging Supreme Court decision since like... Plessy?
First of all, I've already shown how it's not true that a Supreme Court justice will ever only vacate a seat by dying. It doesn't even happen a majority of the time.
It happens a shit ton more often than just about any other job, though. Especially every other job in white collar America.
There have been 30 job fatalities for 103 SCOTUS Justices. That translates into about 30,000 fatalities per 100,000 justices. If you assumed that every justice served for, say, 30 years, than that would be 1000 fatalities per every 100,000 per year.
Do you know the most dangerous job in the world right now? Fisherman. At 129 deaths per 100,000 workers. Coal miner is #8, at 22 deaths per 100,000 workers. And keep in mind that none of these are white collar jobs.
And keep in mind that your figure only counts the juices who literally died while serving. It doesn't count justices who are told they have three months to live, and decide to retire.
Second of all, you are directly calling for the death of a person because you disagree with them politically.
Yes, because that's the only way that they will realistically leave office.
I mean, I can hope that Scalia will have a change of heart and decide to retire for no reason whatsoever. But if I possessed that sort of power, then why not simply wish that Scalia vote the way I want him to vote on every case that is given to him?
Yeah, that's just so much more moral than outright saying "Scalia should be shot."
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about organ donor lists?
Just about every person on an organ donor list hopes to get a replacement organ. And in the case of many organs, it's not something that the other person can give up until another person dies. And not a natural death either -- something sudden and violent while the donor is other person is healthy.
So every person on the organ donor list for say, a new heart, is secretly hoping that someone in the world will die from a horrible car accident. It is worse than the Scalia thing, because a heart that dies of old age is pretty much useless.
Is that morally better than hoping that someone gets murdered specifically for the sake of organ harvesting, or hoping that someone wakes up in a bathtub full of ice?
I would hope so. Because other, you're implying that the entire organ donor list is morally equivalent to murder.
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And yeah, come 2012 there absolutely will be Arizonans showing up to political rallies with guns.
no really, we do. in the long run. not the cause, but in the long run.
You guys may be affecting my jaded/cynical level but one of the random thoughts through my head yesterday was 'oh great, now the right wing crazies will claim they've saved unemployment.'
and then i smacked myself upside the head and went back to feeling just plain crappy about the whole thing
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The worst thing is, this very fact is likely going to be why it won't be addressed honestly or frankly. "Conservative" commentators will take any denouncement as a personal affront as if they're being targeted as accomplices in this horrifying act because sane people are suggesting that you shouldn't tell people to murder your opponents. 20 people get shot and somehow they're the victim in all this. Words don't have power...except when they're espoused by the liberal media on a smear campaign against the right.
The sound thing is very much true. My history teacher scared off a fair number of rednecks who were coming to at least beat him up because they thought he was in the south to demonstrate for civil rights. He didn't even mean to pump it, he was just rushing to get his pants on while holding the pump in one hand. He tripped, the butt hit the floor, and the lynch mob heard the sound through the open window.
Personally, I like my spear. Nobody fucks with a guy with a spear (and two swords, a club, and a bow with arrows, not to mention the unipod).
Edit: Note to self: always read the last page. I think I'll leave the post though, just because it's a cool story.
Everyone dies eventually. Dying is part of the natural cycle.
Not everyone gets murdered. Murder is most definitely not part of the natural cycle.
If the secret service is there then anyone remotely near the person they're protecting has been through a metal detector.
Except for along the parade routes.
although i could be wrong, i didn't go to my local parade last year when the politicians all come out (week before halloween). So maybe not. I know Rep Carey always used to ride an elephant through the parade.
I wonder if he still does.
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It doesn't matter, because the moral difference isn't that you need to actively rule out the possibility of violence. The moral difference is that you shouldn't be actively encouraging violence in the first place.
So you would be see nothing wrong with Glenn Beck beginning every show with "Good morning America, I hope Barack Obama dies."?
because Glenn Beck, in difference to say, me, has a platform and devoted listeners.
I've never really wished anybody to die, either the abusive ex boyfriends to sarah palin. ok, so I did wish for Timothy McVeigh's death, but i think that's a special case.
but still, I'm not a powerful voice or a powerful influence. Glenn Beck is. He reaches more people than I ever will.
It's a nuance, it's a muddy grey nuance, but it's there.
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I would certainly prefer that to him saying "Good morning America, someone should kill Barack Obama."
When you have that kind of audience and that kind of following I don't see much of a distinction.
I think you mean John Carney, former Lt. Gov. and current representative?
I think two or three total while serving in the House, plus Robert Kennedy from the Senate off the top of my head, but yeah, pretty damn rare.
1) Presidents usually don't die in office, nor do they retire because they're close to dying. The same in not true for the supreme court. When President's die in office, it's almost always due to assassination.
2) What shows have the moral equivalent of wishing Scalia to die at every opening? I'm not sure the equivalence you're trying to draw here.
I'm not trying to draw any equivalence to anything.
When people are attacked by dogs, they tend to be uneasy around dogs for a while. When people are in big car wrecks, sometimes they can't get behind the wheel again right away. Maybe not a 180, but it'll be something to note how she feels about tighter gun control laws and background checks after this whole ordeal.
So you're saying that you don't care that Glenn Beck raped and murdered a young girl in 1990?
edit: every time I refresh D&D I see the thread title and misread it as saying RIP Giffords. Two things go through my brain. One that the senator has died. And two that Frank and Kathy Lee were in a car accident.
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There is no moral difference between hoping that the uptight boss gets laid every now and then and learns to lighten up, and hoping that the boss gets raped.
This isn't true.
Harrison
Taylor
Lincoln
Garfield
Harding
FDR
JFK
4/7
Either way, it's irrelevant. Death is not the only way a justice leaves the Supreme Court.
Yes, they can also retire.
Which usually happens when they get close to dying.
And 30% mortality rate is pretty high.
Especially when I assume that all of deaths were of natural causes, not assassinations.
And when you consider that people rarely die out of the blue. Their health usually takes a downturn before that.
So where exactly is the threat of violence?
Jim Brady (of the "Brady Bill") was a pro-gun Reagan staffer (he might have been chief of staff) and was shot in the head i think by John Henkley. He survived and as it turned out his views on the primacy and absoluteness of the second amendment changed.
i guess when i've heard people talking about supreme court justices dying i've never read into it wistfulness for assassination.
Seems it made him become a bit more high caliber in his character?
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When somebody says, "I wish x would die", they're not saying "I wish x would happily live out the rest of their days and die peacefully in their sleep."
They want x to die right now, and that inherently means they're wishing for an untimely demise by whatever means available, whether it be choking on a cracker, gunman, or falling and breaking their neck. And that's just as disgusting as outright saying someone should be shot.
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Actually given the quality of the gun control regulation he came up with, how poorly thought out it was, and how ineffective you are more likely to assume he had brain damage.
:?
First of all, I've already shown how it's not true that a Supreme Court justice will ever only vacate a seat by dying. It doesn't even happen a majority of the time.
Second of all, you are directly calling for the death of a person because you disagree with them politically.
Yeah, that's just so much more moral than outright saying "Scalia should be shot."
I hope that the Seahawks win the next game.
By your logic, that means that I'm secretly hoping that someone murders the opposing team's quarterback in his sleep.
I hope to gain a million dollars.
By your logic, that means that I'm hoping that someone murders my parents tomorrow so that I can cash out on their life insurance policy.
Seriously, you're stretching. Supreme Court Justices are appointed for life. That means that if a Supreme Court Justice decides not to retire, then your only recourse is to wait until he dies. There is no other option. This isn't like an elected official, where you can wait until they get voted out, or until term limits kick in.
And why should anyone count on the fact that the SCOTUS will arbitrarily decide to retire? It's not like they have a history of making decisions that you agree with.
He's not calling for his death or saying Scalia should be shot though. He's saying he hopes he dies which is entirely different if still callous and a bit offputting. But Supreme Court judges are elected for life and until Scalia decides to retire, or dies, he's going to be on the court and making decisions. Realistically there's nothing anyone on this board can do about it except express a wish he stops adjudicating as soon as possible. Someone could write, for instance, "I hope he retires soon." But its more doubtful he will retire than die and many people are not given to being overly kind when they heavily disagree with someone.
Its not like he's threatening him or anything. So it is more moral in absolute terms, even if people find it distasteful.
Remember that conservative christian dude whose name currently escapes me who told his followers to pray for liberal supreme court justices to die a few years ago?
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no, it was definitely Carey....
Or maybe it was Carper. It's been years since I went to the parade, probably about 11 or so.
also...
Delaware hasn't had a 2nd seat in congress since 1823. Somehow, that depresses me. :P
But anyways, one of the national figures from Delaware used to come to my local halloween parade and ride on an elephant. And mike Castle would dress up as Frankenstein and walk in the parade too.
I doubt he'll do that anymore.
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It happens a shit ton more often than just about any other job, though. Especially every other job in white collar America.
There have been 30 job fatalities for 103 SCOTUS Justices. That translates into about 30,000 fatalities per 100,000 justices. If you assumed that every justice served for, say, 30 years, than that would be 1000 fatalities per every 100,000 per year.
Do you know the most dangerous job in the world right now? Fisherman. At 129 deaths per 100,000 workers. Coal miner is #8, at 22 deaths per 100,000 workers. And keep in mind that none of these are white collar jobs.
And keep in mind that your figure only counts the juices who literally died while serving. It doesn't count justices who are told they have three months to live, and decide to retire.
Yes, because that's the only way that they will realistically leave office.
I mean, I can hope that Scalia will have a change of heart and decide to retire for no reason whatsoever. But if I possessed that sort of power, then why not simply wish that Scalia vote the way I want him to vote on every case that is given to him?
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about organ donor lists?
Just about every person on an organ donor list hopes to get a replacement organ. And in the case of many organs, it's not something that the other person can give up until another person dies. And not a natural death either -- something sudden and violent while the donor is other person is healthy.
So every person on the organ donor list for say, a new heart, is secretly hoping that someone in the world will die from a horrible car accident. It is worse than the Scalia thing, because a heart that dies of old age is pretty much useless.
Is that morally better than hoping that someone gets murdered specifically for the sake of organ harvesting, or hoping that someone wakes up in a bathtub full of ice?
I would hope so. Because other, you're implying that the entire organ donor list is morally equivalent to murder.