Initial Rules for Smash Bros.

Zig21

Because two Skypal players are running it, we're using their rules pretty much. Some stuff needs to still be hammered out, though, so expect them to change a little or a lot, depending.

Best of 3
4 stock, 8 minute limit
NO Items (Almost all SSBM tourneys are now NO ITEMS)
Neutral stages (for random selection): Final Destination, Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Kirby 64, Pokemon Stadium
Banned stages: Hyrule Temple, Venom, Fourside, Princess Peach's Castle, Mini Hyrule, Corneria, Yoshi's Island 64, Brinstar Depths, Onett, Flatzone, Icicle Mt completely
Advanced Slob Picks - Loser chooses stage, Winner can switch character, then Loser can switch character
T.A. ON
Life Stealing Allowed

# of stocks and/or time limit will have to be reduced. If not, then this might have to be 2 on 2 (free-for-all is way too random for tourney play). Either way, time will be a major issue, 'cause Smash takes hella long.

Items are a sticky issue. They present some balance issues, but can also provide a fun and interesting dynamic as well. I'll probably ask Skypal to allow items, but there will obviously be some restrictions.

Yagi

yeah, we may have to alter the rules... we dont have a lot of time to do this so I could see a 2v2 being necassary. and i also wouldn't see the problem of adding items especially if we were to do a 2v2 instead.

4 players with items, sounds fun

Taramoor

Wow... six stages to choose from (out of about thirty), all of which have the exact same layout, and no items.

They've managed to take a dynamic, fun, brawler and turn it into a standard 2-D fighter with platforms.

I guess it's true, you can suck the fun out of anything if you try hard enough.

Usual rules we play with are that Hyrule Temple and Yoshi 64 are banned, plus two other stages based on a vote by the players. Hearts, Stars, and Tomatoes are also banned because they're zero-risk items, while everything else is just set to "Low".

Zig21

Yeah, I'll suggest adding some stages as well to the list. Personally, I prefer simple stages, but letting individual players agree on a stage would work too.

Yagi

Wow... six stages to choose from (out of about thirty), all of which have the exact same layout, and no items.

actually, the six stages (out of about twenty) are available through random select only. the other stages are available for counter picks after you lose. btw, there is 25 stages. =P but we do plan on adding more so none of that even matters =D

They've managed to take a dynamic, fun, brawler and turn it into a standard 2-D fighter with platforms.

hehe, that is sort of the point... but that is for a strictly competitive tourney. that is why i suggested earlier that we switch to a team tourney, it will easily allow us to put on more/any stages and items. this way we can enjoy the 4 player mode without having to worry about the politics that come with playing FFA's.

if we went to a 2v2 i really wouldn't see much need to ban anything... skypal will still take it.

switchstance

Taramoor wrote:

Wow... six stages to choose from (out of about thirty), all of which have the exact same layout, and no items.

They've managed to take a dynamic, fun, brawler and turn it into a standard 2-D fighter with platforms.

I guess it's true, you can suck the fun out of anything if you try hard enough.

I really have to agree here. The odd lightsabre or homerun bat are what make the game interesting. It also balances the characters to a certain point.

If I wanted to play Street Fighter, I would pull the SNES out of my closet.

Taramoor

Yagi wrote:

Wow... six stages to choose from (out of about thirty), all of which have the exact same layout, and no items.

actually, the six stages (out of about twenty) are available through random select only. the other stages are available for counter picks after you lose. btw, there is 25 stages. =P but we do plan on adding more so none of that even matters =D

They've managed to take a dynamic, fun, brawler and turn it into a standard 2-D fighter with platforms.

hehe, that is sort of the point... but that is for a strictly competitive tourney. that is why i suggested earlier that we switch to a team tourney, it will easily allow us to put on more/any stages and items. this way we can enjoy the 4 player mode without having to worry about the politics that come with playing FFA's.

if we went to a 2v2 i really wouldn't see much need to ban anything... skypal will still take it.

Well, I can understand making specific rules for tournament play. I play Marvel vs Capcom 2 in tournaments, and of course glitches and things are banned, but it looks like you're trying to force SSBM into being a different game than it is.

It's not like you're banning glitches, it's like you're banning assists or something.

Ah well, I've played some tournament level players and know I'd be outmatched anyway. It's just that I really like the Icicle Mountain stage, amongst others. (Fourside >> you)

jrta

The 'banned' stages can still be played if you both agree on it. But if you do so, you are not allowed to complain if someone abuses the horrible imbalance on certain stages.

Taramoor

jrta wrote:

The 'banned' stages can still be played if you both agree on it. But if you do so, you are not allowed to complain if someone abuses the horrible imbalance on certain stages.

And if someone abuses the imbalance on a stage like Final Destination (which I feel plays entirely to long-distance runaway characters like Fox, in addition to just being a boring stage) I'm just supposed to deal with it?

AshtonDragon

team battles are interesting, but I dont see the problem with just doing 1v1s. Its what all the other fighting games do, isnt it? Just make it 2 or 3 stock battles, and obviously cut down the time limit respectively.

You can complain about the stage selection all you want, but when you see people abusing runaway tactics at Hyrule or game-stalling at fourside, you get to see why those particular stages are considered the most fair.

Grath

if you got rid of it being 2 out of 3 you would cut down alot of time.

Just have a 4 stock - random stage selection - all items on.


I dont understand why people have to remove things from a game to have a tourny. why not play the game the way it was made?


item usage is a great part of the game. people just bitch and complain when you know them away and they are going to make it and you toss a bat at them and nail them.

edit: If its 2v2 do we get to pick our teamate?
and This game isn't a standard 2d fighting game that you're trying to make it. The items and crazy stages are part of what makes smash bros. fun. I dont know I may decide to not be in this tourny since its being turned into a bastardized version of itself because people can't deal with a hammer.

switchstance

Item usage is the fucking game.

I can't believe people would play with items off. That's pretty fucking stupid.

Grath

I love the items. I can see maybe turning off the health restoring items in interest of time. but having other items on will make it go FASTER.


I wish i lived up there and could run this tourny.

Yagi

Items are random. You throw your opponent off the stage and a bat appears, you throw it to edgegaurd and kill him. That is an amazing amount of skill. Even MattDeezie the BIGGEST item advocate in the ENTIRE smash community is turning items off at his OWN TG6, because of the way a single item can effect a match of players of close skill (maybe he could tell you why :P). And when there is a thousand dollars on the line, players would rather not have items determine the winner. Also, it is just the way the Smash community has evolved.

why not play the game the way it was made?

Yes. Why not play a 4 player FFA 2:00 minute time match... :roll:

Grath

Yagi wrote:

Items are random. You throw your opponent off the stage and a bat appears, you throw it to edgegaurd and kill him. That is an amazing amount of skill. Even MattDeezie the BIGGEST item advocate in the ENTIRE smash community is turning items off at his OWN TG6, because of the way a single item can effect a match of players of close skill (maybe he could tell you why :P). And when there is a thousand dollars on the line, players would rather not have items determine the winner. Also, it is just the way the Smash community has evolved.

why not play the game the way it was made?

Yes. Why not play a 4 player FFA 2:00 minute time match... :roll:

If you're being knocked away far enough for a bat hitting you to kill you then you've already lost.

The mode of play is fine with me It doesn't matter what mode we play in.

But removing items and levels trying to turn the game more into something like Street Fighter when its completely different isn't the same as changing what mode of play.

People who complain about somebody using a certain Item are the same type who complain about "camping" in a game where you have to defend a point or they complain about somebody using a sniper rifle in CS.

I can beat you at Smash brothers melee. Not this "sissy I dont use items because you might nail me when I'm already losing" smash brothers you play.

edit: if a bat being thrown at you is too much why not dodge mid air or catch it? you can do that you know.

Taramoor

AshtonDragon wrote:

team battles are interesting, but I dont see the problem with just doing 1v1s. Its what all the other fighting games do, isnt it? Just make it 2 or 3 stock battles, and obviously cut down the time limit respectively.

You can complain about the stage selection all you want, but when you see people abusing runaway tactics at Hyrule or game-stalling at fourside, you get to see why those particular stages are considered the most fair.

So then if certain stages provide an advantage, why not ban top tier characters as well? Character-banning occurs in fighting game tournaments all the time (Akuma in SSF2Turbo, Necrid and console-specific characters in Soulcalibur 2, etc.). I mean, Shiek, Fox, Marth, Falco, and Peach are very abusable against characters like Mewtwo, Game & Watch, and the Ice Climbers, why should characters that have advantages over others be permitted?

Runaway tactics, items, and other stage-based strategies are central to the game. It's like the guys on my dorm floor who play Halo. They refuse to play anything except for Capture the Flag, Blood Gulch, no indicators, with spawn growth and all vehicles on. Then they go to a tournament and complain about the rules. Playing the same way every time sucks the fun out of a perfectly enjoyable game.

Zig21

It'd be nice if people READ MY WHOLE FUCKING POST!!!!!!

Because two Skypal players are running it, we're using their rules pretty much. Some stuff needs to still be hammered out, though, so expect them to change a little or a lot, depending.

So then if certain stages provide an advantage, why not ban top tier characters as well?

Because stage restrictions have a more positive balancing effect in the long run. Plus, some stages just make things flat-out random. Character selection doesn't.

Character-banning occurs in fighting game tournaments all the time

Bad examples. Character banning is always done for completely different reasons and is determined on a per-game basis. Akuma is banned from ST 'cause everybody agrees the game is universally better without him. Spawn/Hei/Link are banned because allowing them causes all kinds of problems when you have people who don't play on the other 2 consoles. The only one of the 3 who would qualify as being "too good" is Hei. Spawn's strong but not too strong, and Link just downright sucks.

Necrid was banned only because nobody cared for him. As it stands, he's tourney-legal in some areas, and I do plan on allowing him at PAX. He's stupid, but that applies to every character in the game, so it doesn't matter.

Runaway tactics, items, and other stage-based strategies are central to the game.

Runaway is bad from a crowd-pleasing perspective, and it's a bitch for tournament organizers as well (Smash already takes too damn long). And honestly, one KO and you win just by running away 'cause they have no practical means of catching you? How is that not retarded?

If you don't think it's fun, either make some constructive suggestions or play casual. In tournament play, losing 'cause of some random occurance that you had no control over is fucking stupid. Smash Bros. has a major random factor 'cause of how the game was designed. I'm all for diversity, but if it gets to the point where skill is almost a non-factor, then what's the point in holding a tournament in the first place? Might as well just have casual play for 2.5 hours.

It's like the guys on my dorm floor who play Halo.

Another bad comparison, as stage and item restrictions are standard for Smash tournies.

Grath

Because two Skypal players are running it, we're using their rules pretty much. Some stuff needs to still be hammered out, though, so expect them to change a little or a lot, depending.

Thats why we are offering our feedback.

switchstance

You're going to sit here and tell me that it would be unfair to be killed by a bat, because it takes away skill from the game? I always thought of "edgeguarding" as one of the skills of the game. Both people can do it so I don't see where you can even make a point of it. It's like back in the Street Fighter days when people would complain about cornering. If some guy corners you it's your fault, don't be a pussy and complain about it.

This tournament isn't for thousands of dollars, it isn't even one of the OmegaCollection games. Talk about taking a game too seriously.

Grath

good thing ness has his thunder attack right switchy

Taramoor

Zig21 wrote:

It'd be nice if people READ MY WHOLE FUCKING POST!!!!!!

Because two Skypal players are running it, we're using their rules pretty much. Some stuff needs to still be hammered out, though, so expect them to change a little or a lot, depending.

So then if certain stages provide an advantage, why not ban top tier characters as well?

Because stage restrictions have a more positive balancing effect in the long run. Plus, some stages just make things flat-out random. Character selection doesn't.

Character-banning occurs in fighting game tournaments all the time

Bad examples. Character banning is always done for completely different reasons and is determined on a per-game basis. Akuma is banned from ST 'cause everybody agrees the game is universally better without him. Spawn/Hei/Link are banned because allowing them causes all kinds of problems when you have people who don't play on the other 2 consoles. The only one of the 3 who would qualify as being "too good" is Hei. Spawn's strong but not too strong, and Link just downright sucks.

Necrid was banned only because nobody cared for him. As it stands, he's tourney-legal in some areas, and I do plan on allowing him at PAX. He's stupid, but that applies to every character in the game, so it doesn't matter.

Runaway tactics, items, and other stage-based strategies are central to the game.

Runaway is bad from a crowd-pleasing perspective, and it's a bitch for tournament organizers as well (Smash already takes too damn long). And honestly, one KO and you win just by running away 'cause they have no practical means of catching you? How is that not retarded?

If you don't think it's fun, either make some constructive suggestions or play casual. In tournament play, losing 'cause of some random occurance that you had no control over is fucking stupid. Smash Bros. has a major random factor 'cause of how the game was designed. I'm all for diversity, but if it gets to the point where skill is almost a non-factor, then what's the point in holding a tournament in the first place? Might as well just have casual play for 2.5 hours.

Runaway is bad from a crowd-pleasing perspective? So what, it's an effective strategy (though I've never been any good at it) and what if that's how someone plays? Suppose someone hates those six stages, are they left in the dark without any options just because Skypal said so? You're organizing a tournament for everybody Zig, not just the guys who are pro at the game.

The item thing affects both players equally, and since there will probably be more than one fight per match, it would even out as well as speed things up. Yes, a string of good luck could swing an entire match your way, but the odds are against it and with no-risk items like Tomatoes, Hearts, and Stars off, while everything else is set to low or very low, you maintain the randomness without sacrificing much, if any, of the skill involved. Nearly all of the items require skill to use effectively, and they serve to balance out the characters a little bit more.

It's like the guys on my dorm floor who play Halo.

Another bad comparison, as stage and item restrictions are standard for Smash tournies.

No, they're not. Most Smash Tournies I've played at (as in, those not influenced by smashboards), as well as those I've run myself, have had varying rulesets with varying degrees of success. Yes, Yoshi 64 and Hyrule Castle are usually banned strictly because they increase match length exponentially, and Icicle Mountain and Big Blue are banned because most people hate them, but you don't eliminate 80% of the stages just because you want to play a 2D fighter instead of a Smash Brothers game.

Zig, don't take this personally, okay, I'm just giving you a hard time because it seems like the SKYPAL guys are trying to organize a tournament that only they will want to play in. Place slight restrictions, but don't remove everything that makes the game what it is in the name of balance.

switchstance

Borfase

I'm down for 2.5 hours of casual play.

switchstance

So we have to get someone else and have a 4 player Ness brawl.

I'm going to practice by beating Earthbound again.

Grath

So if we do have a 2v2 tourny who's going to partner up with me?

Zig21

Runaway is bad from a crowd-pleasing perspective? So what, it's an effective strategy

And due to issues with stage design, people feel it's been proven as being TOO good on stages like Hyrule. Not all the stages listed as banned are there 'cause they're prone to run-away, which is why I suggested adding some stages in the first place.

Suppose someone hates those six stages, are they left in the dark without any options just because Skypal said so?

What if too many people decide to run away and the tournament runs on too long? Make the rules too turtle-friendly and you won't have a tournament AT ALL 'cause the powers that be won't let you go over the time limit.

You're organizing a tournament for everybody Zig, not just the guys who are pro at the game.

They're the ones who were willing to run this thing in the first place. Tournaments don't just happen; someone has to take responsibility. I was asked to run SC2 and GGXX, so that's why we're using the rules I prefer. Same with Smash. Skypal knows how to run tournaments, that's why they have the job.

The item thing affects both players equally, and since there will probably be more than one fight per match, it would even out as well as speed things up.

You don't read:

Items are a sticky issue. They present some balance issues, but can also provide a fun and interesting dynamic as well. I'll probably ask Skypal to allow items, but there will obviously be some restrictions.

Nearly all of the items require skill to use effectively, and they serve to balance out the characters a little bit more.

Pokeballs don't take skill at all. You get a good Pokemon for the current situation or you don't. And claiming the items help character balance is BS. Fox is becomes something of a dominator with items.

No, they're not. Most Smash Tournies I've played at (as in, those not influenced by smashboards), as well as those I've run myself, have had varying rulesets with varying degrees of success.

So what, it's you against the competetive community? If the main competetive community is organized around Smash Boards and the rule set it uses and you're just mentioning random tournies that nobody really cares about, you don't have much of an argument.

but you don't eliminate 80% of the stages just because you want to play a 2D fighter instead of a Smash Brothers game.

Then perhaps we should reconsider Smash Bros.'s validity as a competetive game in its "natural" state, considering how we DO have to turn it into a 2d fighter in order to hold tournaments.

Zig, don't take this personally, okay,

It's all good.

switchstance

Grath wrote:

So if we do have a 2v2 tourny who's going to partner up with me?

I would, but I'm holding out until I find some asian kid.

Zig21

Can't say we got too many Asians for rent. How 'bout a Mexican instead?

Grath

Grath wrote:

Because two Skypal players are running it, we're using their rules pretty much. Some stuff needs to still be hammered out, though, so expect them to change a little or a lot, depending.

Thats why we are offering our feedback.

so zig when you talk to skypal can you let them know that so far it seems a large portion of the community on the forum would like for items to be enabled?

Yagi

Not even sure if this is known.... But I am one of the hosts. And if you see my first posts in this topic, I am all for adding items and stages. This definately seems more like a laid back fun tourney, so I would have no objections to it.

I was just trying to explain why items would be turned off at OTHER tournies. Like I mentioned in my first posts this tourney will most likely have all/most items and stages. Maybe we could use TG5 rules.

Grath

I think if you're worried about time you should just make it 1v1 5 stock matches.
don't do best 2 out of 3.

Borfase

I just want to see the rules for Splinter Cell.

switchstance

The best part about these things is entering tournys for games you've never played before. Then you don't have to concentrate on anything other than trying to embarrass the guy who should beat you.

Taramoor

I was under the impression that the tournaments were occuring as simply part of the PAX activities. I wasn't aware they were being organized strictly by outsiders. If SKYPAL's running the tournament and paying for the prizes, then let them run the tournament by whatever rules they want. I apologize for arguing.

I'm a proponent that Melee in its natural state (provided you switch to stock rather than time) is a perfectly viable tournament game. And there are others who agree with me that you don't need to hamstring the game in order to make it one. The problem is that a Smash Brothers tourney needs to be arranged differently from a standard fighting game, and most people aren't willing to wrap thier brain around that.

It's not BS to say that items balance out the game, it's just another skill that should be needed to win. Some people play the game and develop strategies that are highly depending on making use of the items that show up. You can't say "I'm the best at Smash Brothers, provided there are no items and we're playing on Final Destination" and expect it to mean something. Your point about the pokeballs is well taken, though. They are a zero-risk item like the heart, star, and tomato. Though, in my opinion, even the legendary pokemon aren't particularly effective if the other person knows what to expect.

I'd rather have a ton of average joe gamer types show up and want to play, since the tournament is for fun, than watch a single group of people dominate because they got to set the rules. If you restrict the settings too much, people are going to turn away and go do something else. You can't cater to a select few and forget about the other people attending the Expo.

Most common tournament settings I've seen:

Double Elimination
Stock: 5 (time limit: 10:00)
Best 2 out of 3, increases during later rounds to 3 out of 5, final is 4 out of 7.
Hyrule Temple & Yoshi 64 banned, plus other stages if the majority of attendees agree (this is usually voted on before the tourney starts)
Items on Low, no hearts/tomatoes/stars/pokeballs/party balls
Character switching between matches is allowed.

We usually would have two or three Cubes going at any given time, so that speeds things up a little bit. I'm not sure what the setup will be at PAX though.

EDIT: The worst part about this is I won't even be able to enter the tourney, since I'm going to be on Staff at the event. :?

Borfase

Who the hell is SKYPAL anyways?

aeolist

Taramoor wrote:

Most common tournament settings I've seen:

Double Elimination
Stock: 5 (time limit: 10:00)
Best 2 out of 3, increases during later rounds to 3 out of 5, final is 4 out of 7.
Hyrule Temple & Yoshi 64 banned, plus other stages if the majority of attendees agree (this is usually voted on before the tourney starts)
Items on Low, no hearts/tomatoes/stars/pokeballs/party balls
Character switching between matches is allowed.

I like this set. This is pretty much how the tourneys I've played in have been set up, and they rocked. At the very least we need to enable most of the items on low. Get rid of Brinstar Depths, Icicle Mountain, and Big Blue and you've got yourself a winner there.

switchstance

Borfase wrote:

Who the hell is SKYPAL anyways?

They're kind of like the nazis, without the love for animals.

Linear

smash rocks!!!!! We play way way way to much smash at our our university dorm. (failed out of engeenering because I played to much smash . BUt now that I am in BIology I have more time for smash and now we paly with something like a 5 stock itmes on low or moderate and no healing itmes. It is that simple, there is nothing like catching a home run bat out of the air that then decking your oponent with it it rocks. and besides if it is 2v2 legde camping is harder, asumming your partner isn't a total moron or already dead. presumable if your going to enter this tourny your not brain dead at the game so your partner should suck total dick.

Anyway I would love to and kick some ass but I am stuck up here in Quebec where the damn sun never shines apon a game convention or even a game tournment so I am forced into game desolution hopelessly waiting for the gaming gods to smile on me that I one day might get the change.

Linear out

Dog

I like the rules execpt with Hyrule Temple it makes it more challenging that is the only level I play on. Items are gay it makes it so noobs can win. I wouldn't be so opposed to items if they were like limited to baseball bat and lightsaber and under no circumstances, NO POKEMON :evil:

duderdude2

Back in '99, I attended a local Super Smash Brothers tournament with some very talented people. The games were standard Smash fare: 2 or 3 minutes, 4-player brawl with items on. It worked splendidly. I can assure you everyone who deserved to be in the final round earned their place there.

We already have a 1-vs-1, no items, tournament fighter at PAX. It would be a shame to strip this original game of its uniqueness. So what if there's a few random elements? In a 4-player brawl the random effects aren't nearly as devastating as it would be 1-on-1. In fact, the tournament I attended even had several 1-on-1 matches (for reasons I can't recall), and the individual who was better won every single time.

Super Smash Brothers Melee isn't that different from the original. I really hope the tournament retains the games integrity, I'd rather have fun while losing than winning at a naked game.

Zig21

OK, you people need to stop posting in dead threads that you don't even read.