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Video Killed the Marine [Arizona Police Stupidity Thread]
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Might as well just resign ahead of time.
These are the same people who love to claim, "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear."
You can make that same argument when they do it to teachers. Sadly people seem to not care as much.
I like how folks automatically blame the conservative when the article the OP linked clearly states this was under Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik who was blaming Republican Rhetoric right after the Giffords shooting without knowing the details.
Stupidity and corruption know both sides of the Isle IMO.
i can't help but think that the number of bullets has something to do with liability. if the bullets that killed the guy were found to be from one or maybe even two guns, it would be easy to pinpoint who actually killed the guy. But if it's 70 bullets? Who knows. Can't hold any specific person responsible, can we know?
He was hit (from what I read) 22 times.
I just hope the guy that blind fired is out on his ass. What if there had been someone on the floor? Whoops! No time for lookin' only shootin'
I don't think that was the case here, judging from that video alone.
(Has it been verified that video is legitimate?)
I did not blame a conservative, I wondered along with the other guy if these were in any way connected to Sheriff Joe. In fact someone in this thread has suggested that both Sheriffs are in fact buddies.
But yeah, people are dumb on both political sides, but we aren't talking about political parties.
Uh, it's from the police department, so yes?
Also:
It's a culture of disrespect of police coupled with a worship of policing in the abstract. And the average person probably has no idea that the two are linked, that the police in this nation are corrupt and power-mad largely because we grant them unlimited power and demonize them if we see any sniff of crime anywhere at all. We want our cops to be the lawless vigilante thugs we see in film, because they Get Things Done and Bring Down the Bad Guy - we just don't want those thugs anywhere near us, personally, because they're lawless vigilante thugs. And apparently we haven't collectively realized that they don't Bring Down the Bad Guy so much as Bring Down Whoever Is Standing Closest And Has A Vaguely-Gun-Shaped Object In His Hand.
The bolded bit is also an illusion that people have about military personnel. People have this notion that someone joins the military for the noble goal of protecting our (usually presented as "your") freedoms. I would wager that there are quite a few service men and women who believe it is their patriotic duty to protect our country, that I have no doubt. But how many are they in comparison to the people who join so they can get their college tuition paid, or who couldn't get into college, or who come from a military family trying to make a career of it? And there's probably a few (very few, I imagine) people who are in the military who are, for all intents and purposes, terrible human beings. But, military men and women get this hero worship where they're automatically entitled to respect and anything less is met with anger and accusations of being unpatriotic or unamerican. This thread even being posted is proof of that, the OP specifically stated he only posted this up because the man who was killed was a marine.
Now, before anyone rages about this, let me be clear that I do respect the members of our armed forces. But, I respect them as much as I respect any other human being I meet, I treat them with respect unless they prove otherwise. I treat cops the same way, as well as any other person with any other job (doctor, teacher, McDonald's employee) that I've ever met. As far as I'm concerned, no job you currently hold entitles you to any more (or less) respect than anyone else, I feel that your actions define if you should be respected or not.
I apologize for heading off topic a bit, but I felt it needed pointing out in response to the quote I listed above.
I also might as well go ahead and say that I'm done with this topic. I never said that everyone in the thread were demonizing / generalizing police, just that there were some and I've proven that was the case (whether it was intentional or not doesn't matter).
Sorry, I saw the news channels logo in the corner and didn't realise the Sheriff's office had given it to them. Thanks for pointing that out.
As to the 2nd thing you quoted, I'm not sure if that was directed at me but I'll respond like it was. My "I don't think that was the case..." was in response to the number of bullets being related to liability. It didn't look like anyone thought "hey I know how we can cover our asses" and more of "WTF is going on? Pull trigger!"
So the neighbors who claim they heard nothing are lying?
Except Marijuana is bad, because the cartels and other major producers use it as their money maker to fund their gun running and their heroin and coccaine manufacturing operations.
But thats an issue for another thread.
I dont know how anyone can hear anything in that video, all I hear is the god damn stereo in their SUV blaring.
Its also the fact that when there is evidence that incriminates the cops, its classified "to avoid ruining the investigation". When there is evidence that incriminates the victim, its leaked "by anonymous sources inside the department".
Real trustworthy behavior there.
Except if marijuana is legal, then there is no reason to buy it from the black market and they can't use it to fund gun running and harder drug operations.
Drug dealers and cartels want marijuana to be illegal.
And even if you count the indirect effects of marijuana, I'm pretty sure it still comes up as "might even be as dangerous as tobacco or alcohol"
That second bit was in reference to the guy who said he got hit 22 times or whatever. As that is not the case. Not you, sorry for the confusion.
The 22 hits was from a CNN article that I see has been taken down. Of course, I'm starting to ignore CNN as most of their stories completely contradict their headlines and are mostly garbage.
where's a good news source? BBC?
I think, on average, most people would acknowledge that if nothing else you have to be reasonably brave to sign up for an active service position given what the army is currently engaged in.
It does take a lot of sacrifice to serve, and I'm thankful for it. But there's a *reason* you don't see the bulk of enrollment coming from well-off white kids who have lots of other options.
Ofc. you could maybe hit up Reuters or AP and go direct to the source too.
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Yeah see this is the thing. You have kids going through training right from high school to the SWAT team.
In big cities, to get onto SWAT requires intense competition. In the small counties they do the same "can you fog a mirror" test that the Marines require for their infantry (ololol).
This is why the State police should be the ones responsible for the SWAT/ETF actions, and this is why they should cross-train with the FBI HRT and other world class agencies. If you have a centralized command and the leeway to have a force that spends their time training or responding to genuine emergencies, then you avoid the problem of SWAT teams being deployed under grossly inappropriate conditions.
Also, you have departments that have more beat cops, which means more community involvement which means (GASP) more effective policing. Cases still get solved by cops and detectives fucking talking to people.
As for the "minutes vs. hours" argument welp
These things move at 180 MPH and can't get held up in traffic.
Hostage situations and standoffs, AFAIK, don't often involve running gunbattles unless the local cops really fuck the dog and don't establish a proper cordon. Unless we're counting the Hollywood robbery thing, but that was one crime in a million.
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If most cops were good people this kind of shit wouldn't be tolerated.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Years ago I was briefly considering police work as a career, and this was the kind of thing that made me ultimately reject the idea. I knew that sooner or later, I would end up in a spot where I'd have to choose between Doing the Right Thing (both in the legal and moral sense) and doing what my superiors and fellow officers would expect me to do - looking the other way, keeping my mouth shut, backing them up no matter what. I didn't want to be put in a position where I had to choose between my livelihood/career/reputation, and my conscience.
There are bad cops who are on the take, who abuse suspects, violate due process etc.
There are dumb cops who make negligent mistakes that get people hurt or killed.
And there are "good cops" who look the other way or are pressured to do so, so that the bad/dumb cops get away with their shit.
Who protects the "good cops" who don't want to protect the bad cops? Nobody.
There was no question that this was the police.
Unless you suspect robbers are actually disguising themselves as police there is little to no reason to arm yourself with intent to kill. And in that case, you better be ready to start shooting immediately. Only take out a gun if you intend to use it.
How often have you heard a siren outside your house and gone "oh shit, the police must be here to arrest me!"
If you heard a siren for a few seconds, then later heard someone kicking your fucking door, you'd be a tad worried too, especially if you had family that was murdered in a home invasion. If you're a former marine? You grab your defense, protect your family, and defend your home. Had he fired a shot or raised his rifle I'd be more sympathetic to the police, but this was heinous. Given the time frame of the video, it looks like he got hit gun, ran into the hallway, and was then gunned down.
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Or what likely happened is the Marine used the same fire discipline all Marines are trained in, saw no dangerous target, and kept his weapon at the low ready and on safe. The cops, being fucking cowboys, lack anything approaching that, which is why they executed an innocent civilian, and you see their shitty, shitty breach and fire technique that would have got them killed against a more dangerous target, along with the hilariously stupid guy on the far left leaning into to shoot at a target he cannot see and getting in the way.
It's definitely a part, but a lot of other factors like family history play into it as well (a lot of people can relate their grandfather's war stories). I don't actually mind that, so long as the benefits and pay are fair, and it is used responsibly (though I have a hawkish definition of such). I think military service is a good way to push reasonable and effective socialism-like policy in the US with a powerful shield from intellectually bankrupt but very loud right wing criticism, though that is starting to veer off topic.
Uh no. I grew up in a neighborhood where police sirens were going off regularly and let me tell you those sirens are loud as fuck, and if you were in that house at the time there would be no mistake that police cars were right outside your door. The sirens were loud and clear, of this there can be no doubt.
Maybe what I heard wasn't a megaphone but either way the police were shouting right outside the door and knocking on it very loudly. Sure in the video it doesn't sound like much, but again this is just an amateur sound recording with shitty quality. In fact, at the distance the camera is from the action, the fact that you can hear the police signifies that they were being loud and clear.
There was also no reasonable evidence that these were armed robbers coming in to steal his shit and kill his family; the fact is the guy chose to make a wild assumption that cost him his life; I argue that he could have just as easily assumed it was the police; If it were you or me, we would have probably waited behind cover to assess the threat before going in with guns blazing like this was Rambo 4. Moral of the story is don't make assumptions about shit you don't know
The amount of people in his family killed by home invasions is only an interesting aside, not a relevant detail of this particular situation.
I find it laughable that people say this Marine was trained in the "safe" usage of lethal weaponry and yet overlooked the fact that he neglected any attempt to take cover to shield or hide himself from enemy fire. If I see a dude standing in the open with an assault rifle in his hands it would not be unreasonable to imagine that he has decided to forgo his self preservation instincts and go on an all out attack.
Yes, if cops are going into a building with guns and armor, it is possible that some bullets will be exchanged.
You think they're just going to fucking walk in there with sparkly tasers and some harsh words? Get real.
No, I think he was just poking a hole in the idea that if you take out a gun it means you plan to kill someone with it. As opposed to, you know, assessing a threat and dealing with it. Which it seems like the marine was doing. Which is probably why he didn't immediately put holes in the officers in question. Shame they didn't extend him the same courtesy.
If I take out a gun I am most certainly planning to use it on any perceived enemy who may also be armed with a gun.
Which they did.
What does that have to do with anything? No one much cares about what random PA'er number 30,000 thinks when he pulls out a gun. You made an incorrect statement (taking out a gun = you are planning to shoot someone) and since you didn't figure that out when Mr_Rose pointed it out, I'm pointing it out again for you, bolding the relevant.
Grok?
:^:
As others have said, I'll start making a point of exempting hypothetical patrolman Bob as soon as he becomes actual patrolman Bob who spoke out against the misconduct of his fellow officers.
As far as whoever arguing that the sirens were loud and clear, how do you explain the neighbors not hearing it? It doesn't sound that loud to me. All it seems like to me is the guy heard someone beating down his front door and armed himself as fast as he could.
If you aren't making any assumptions, and you hear someone beating down your front door, what would YOU suggest they do? Go answer it and hope it isn't someone here to kill you and take your shit? Unless you're actively a criminal (which this person was not) people just DO NOT ASSUME the police are going to be kicking in their front door. There's no reason for them to assume that. At all. It is overwhelmingly more likely in that scenario that it is a home invasion. If your door started getting kicked in right now you bet your ass you wouldn't think "Oh, the police must be here!" Unless you have a kilo of coke on the table or something.
edit: also, we don't know he wasn't in cover. He could have been standing halfway in a door frame looking into the hallway. Look at the house, do you think those walls are incredibly bullet proof? Well they aren't, because neighboring houses got hit by the hail of gunfire.