Actually you're full of shit and the LDS community here in Utah despises and looks down on the fundamentalist who still practice polygamy. Theres even claims from defense lawyers that Polygamist Leaders cant be tried in Utah because of how much the rest of Utah despises them. But you probably know more about it living outside of the state than I do actually living here.
Excuse me, how long did it take you to start doing something about the FLDS?
Please don't be pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining.
I don't know about Brian specifically, but the fundamentalist stuff has been on the fringe for the better part of fifty years
So, like
Your righteous indignation should probably be targeted towards more rational arguments than mormon polygamy
Like how the mormons wouldn't ordain blacks until 1978. Because for most of it's history the church openly considered blacks to be subhuman.
It's a charming religion, full of some of the nicest hatemongers you'll ever see this side of a klan rally.
what about indignation towards the psychological torture that is excommunication for those that come out as LGBT
they have entire networks and forums devoted to struggling with same sex attraction
they call it "dealing with SSA"
the entire culture is devoted to minimizing queer identity and squashing it when it does come to fruition
the entire culture is racist, hell-bent on subverting lesser cultures with Mormonism, and more willing to offer a book of Mormon than a decent uplifting charitable motion for impoverished countries
BYU is straight out of the 50's and they have posters everywhere on how to dress as a woman
tl;dr Mormonism is virulently racist, homophobic, misogynistic, and couched in friendly, loving rhetoric.
Hold the damn phone. I'm atheist as they come but the Mormons I've met have been some of the nicest people I've ever known. Like with Catholics, or any other organization, the leadership might be pricks but a lot of the people aren't baby eaters, ya dig?
He said government doesn't have the authority prevent parents from sending kids to these places. That' very different than saying its ok to send kids to them.
No, it really isn't. The prohibitions we as a society through our agent - government - either set up or don't reflect our shared values. This principle is one of the driving forces fueling the same sex marriage debate on both sides, to give you an example.
Yeah, he didn't say that either. If they haven't broken any laws the government really isn't allowed to do anything about it. Which is not to say they couldn't pass a law, and then enforce it. Only that they can't enforce where no law exists. It's generally how we prefer our governments to work.
Hold the damn phone. I'm atheist as they come but the Mormons I've met have been some of the nicest people I've ever known. Like with Catholics, or any other organization, the leadership might be pricks but a lot of the people aren't baby eaters, ya dig?
Uh, nobody called them baby eaters and FCC specifically said they are (superficially) really fucking nice.
Hold the damn phone. I'm atheist as they come but the Mormons I've met have been some of the nicest people I've ever known. Like with Catholics, or any other organization, the leadership might be pricks but a lot of the people aren't baby eaters, ya dig?
Try to leave their community or be LGBT in their community.
They force complete and utter no contact.
Any kind of dissent is handled this way.
And every gay is a pedophile, every white is a Nazi, and Muslims are all terrorists. Painting an entire group as one mind about anything is pure bigotry. I'm sure there are Mormons that act the way you describe, that doesn't mean they all do.
They are superficially some of the nicest and friendliest people you will ever meet.
You could tell them how terrible they were and they would just tell you how sorry they were that you felt that way.
They are taught "to feel the testament burning in their hearts" and nothing an outsider can say will bother them.
Internally, they probably think you are hilarious and sad because you won't be getting your own planet for you and your family on the Celestial Kingdom plane.
And every gay is a pedophile, every white is a Nazi, and Muslims are all terrorists. Painting an entire group as one mind about anything is pure bigotry. I'm sure there are Mormons that act the way you describe, that doesn't mean they all do.
Find me a gay Mormon that thrives in the Mormon community.
I've done no such distillation. The tenets of Mormonism are built at a social level, so that they can be swiftly enforced on the Mormon individual.
Your psychic ablities are dazzling, FCC. To be able to read the hearts and minds of thousands at once without the aid of Cerebro is an astounding feat.
Your psychic ablities are dazzling, FCC. To be able to read the hearts and minds of thousands at once without the aid of Cerebro is an astounding feat.
You can use all the sarcasm you want. I don't think you really know what Mormonism is, how their communities work, what their major philosophies are, or their goals and actions.
I just find your painting of every Mormon has a gay hating psychopath fucked up. Maybe I'm just not understanding your posts, but that seems to be what you're implying, and that's insane.
They aren't gay hating psychopaths. They operate by a strict set of societal rules that allows for no individual gain that hasn't been preordained by the President (Mormon Pope) of the Mormon community.
They are superficially some of the nicest and friendliest people you will ever meet.You could tell them how terrible they were and they would just tell you how sorry they were that you felt that way.
They are taught "to feel the testament burning in their hearts" and nothing an outsider can say will bother them.
Internally, they probably think you are hilarious and sad because you won't be getting your own planet for you and your family on the Celestial Kingdom plane.
Hold the damn phone. I'm atheist as they come but the Mormons I've met have been some of the nicest people I've ever known. Like with Catholics, or any other organization, the leadership might be pricks but a lot of the people aren't baby eaters, ya dig?
Try to leave their community or be LGBT in their community. They force complete and utter no contact.
Any kind of dissent is handled this way.
This sure seems odd, given that my grandfather and father (and a good number of other relatives of mine, the extended family is roughly split between mormon and non-mormon) left the church. And no one acted or acts like that. If anything the rest of the mormon community just visited them more, hoping to convince them to come back. They were never exiled from or cut off from anything, other than I suppose access to the temple (access to which is almost always restricted to followers only, though I recall the temple near me opening up to the public for tours once.)
And the mormons still get together with the former-mormons too on holidays and family reunions.
Well fuck, I guess I better go tell my family that we've been doing it wrong, because some guy on the internet says we're supposed to be totally cut off, because 'they' force complete and utter no contact, and any kind of dissent is handed this way.
Hold the damn phone. I'm atheist as they come but the Mormons I've met have been some of the nicest people I've ever known. Like with Catholics, or any other organization, the leadership might be pricks but a lot of the people aren't baby eaters, ya dig?
They just actively support baby eaters and are part of a religion in which its founder used his position to force women to fuck him. That is so much better.
Couscous on
0
Options
HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Hey remember when I said this place sounds a lot like Tranquility Bay? Turns out this thing is run by the exact same parent organization.
Church Elder Tad R. Callister said the church recognized its shortcoming when it recently released its "Doctrine of Inclusion," which implores members to better embrace nonmembers--whether people of other religions or former Mormons.
"We're imperfect people . . . [but] we want it to be said that we're the best neighbors in the world," Callister said.
The author of the inclusion doctrine, Elder M. Russell Ballard, acknowledges that he occasionally hears "of members offending those of other faiths by overlooking them and leaving them out. This can occur especially in communities where our members are the majority."
Ballard, a member of the church's Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said he's also heard about "narrow-minded parents" who won't let their children play with children who aren't in the church.
"I cannot comprehend why any member of our church would allow these kinds of things to happen," he said.
Because of family ties, jobs, familiarity or just plain stubbornness, many of the former Mormons have decided to stay in hostile territory and try to make friends--or at least live a peaceful life in a parallel universe alongside the church.
"I want to be me and still be respected," said Maxine Hanks, who was excommunicated from the church in 1993 after publishing her book, "Women and Authority: Re-Emerging Mormon Feminism." "I'm tired of being seen as an outsider."
Hanks said the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City next year has spurred Mormon officials to rethink their outreach to other faiths, which included the Doctrine of Inclusion.
Critics acknowledge that Mormon leaders have been doing a better job in recent years of promoting inclusiveness. But nearly all of the ex-Mormons at the conference said they'd seen no evidence of it. They said their former ties to the church have put them, in the eyes of Mormons, in a different category than people of other faiths or even atheists. They suspect hurt feelings and a fear of associating with apostates contributed to the shunning.
Social insularity is a general problem with any community composed primarily of religious conservatives; not like they think anything's wrong with outsiders, so much as their local church provides a one-stop-shop for their social needs and members begin to feel uncomfortable outside of it.
It's an insularity born of laziness and routine really, and it's something the top-tier Mormon leadership recognizes, dislikes and discourages, which is more than a lot of conservative religious communities with the same problem can claim.
And while it's a problem in Mormon-dense Utah and a few localized communities, it's really not something you'll see too much outside of Utah. Mormons raised in California in the last ten years, for instance, tend to be comparatively open minded people with broad social circles.
I'll be the first to point out a lot of core hypocrisies and problems with the Mormon church as an institution, but you've already gone too far if you claim that Mormons in particular are worse in any specific respect than religious conservatives in general.
Now if you really want to push the issue and complain about Mormon communities shutting out publicly self-proclaimed apostates, well... I honestly have to wonder what kind of apostate sits around feeling bad that they don't have enough friends amongst the community of faithful Mormons, and I would wholeheartedly recommend making some friends outside of that community.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
Hold the damn phone. I'm atheist as they come but the Mormons I've met have been some of the nicest people I've ever known. Like with Catholics, or any other organization, the leadership might be pricks but a lot of the people aren't baby eaters, ya dig?
They just actively support baby eaters and are part of a religion in which its founder used his position to force women to fuck him. That is so much better.
Sorry, but the x is always evil argument just doesn't cut it for me. I get that it's easier to paint groups you view as enemies to be subhuman monsters so that it's easier to hate them, but that doesn't make it right.
Hold the damn phone. I'm atheist as they come but the Mormons I've met have been some of the nicest people I've ever known. Like with Catholics, or any other organization, the leadership might be pricks but a lot of the people aren't baby eaters, ya dig?
They just actively support baby eaters and are part of a religion in which its founder used his position to force women to fuck him. That is so much better.
Sorry, but the x is always evil argument just doesn't cut it for me. I get that it's easier to paint groups you view as enemies to be subhuman monsters so that it's easier to hate them, but that doesn't make it right.
They are giving their money to and showing up every Sunday to support an anti-gay hate group. So, unless they're giving equal time and money to PFLAG and Pride rallies, they're horrible fucking hate-filled assholes.
And I challenge you to show me one Mormon who gives at least equal time to the church and pro-gay groups.
While the "you can't blame all members of group x for the actions of group x" is usually true, the argument is substantially weakened when practically all the members of group x financially contribute to group x, and are thus actively supporting their activities.
I am just utterly flabbergasted that this is allowed without a whole fuckload of proof- parents at the airport, positively ID'd to security, signing authorization to the transporters at the security checkpoint...
This isn't really a viable setup you're talking about here. I flew my oldest daughter to see her grandmother in Boston last year. She used a school ID to get on the plane, after I called the airport and informed them she was flying. With a system like this, how would she have gotten home?
My case represents the overwhelming majority of situations. Also, as far as I can recall there is no restriction on children over 14 flying alone wherever they like, as long as they have ID.
How long did it take for the LDS church to not see black people as lesser people?
1970's
Pfft, ancient history. Mississippi didn't ratify the 13th Amendment, banning slavery, until 1995.
Not that there's much room for Yankee crowing there. New York rescinded its ratification of the 15th Amendment, allowing blacks to vote, in 1870 and didn't reverse that decision until 1970.
BubbaT on
0
Options
JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
The actual Mormon Church will deal with homosexuality the exact same way they did polygamy and race issues - they'll be backwards as fuck and vehemently insist on how important it is that they be allowed their bigotry right up until the stance becomes unpopular enough in the larger society that it actually threatens their ability to run Utah like their own fifedom, at which point Head Mormon Pope Guy will conveniently get a new revelation that goes something like "Gays are icky, but just leave them alone".
The Mormon Church is despicable in many ways, but they've got a built it and very convenient way for God himself to issue politically expedient retcons at any time. When openly opposing gay rights is just as fringe and ruled just as unconstitutional as openly opposing black civil rights the LDS church will just *happen* to get the memo.
You know, from God. Totally not in response to the current political or legal climate.
[Edit]
In response to this camp thing, it'll be terrible (or terribly awesome) when some parents decide they need to ship their 'troubled teen' off for some reprogramming....and the teen actually is in trouble getting into gangs or something, and shoots these kidnapping motherfuckers right in the face when they bust into his room.
Granted, the 'do you need to brainwash your teen?' quiz is obviously meant to get every teen sent there, but they've got to get a kid who's genuinely involved in some shady things eventually, right?
JihadJesus on
0
Options
21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
In response to this camp thing, it'll be terrible (or terribly awesome) when some parents decide they need to ship their 'troubled teen' off for some reprogramming....and the teen actually is in trouble getting into gangs or something, and shoots these kidnapping motherfuckers right in the face when they bust into his room.
Granted, the 'do you need to brainwash your teen?' quiz is obviously meant to get every teen sent there, but they've got to get a kid who's genuinely involved in some shady things eventually, right?
First of all, people getting shot in the face is never "awesome", especially when it's just people doing their job.
Secondly, these facilities are usually rather costly. Most of the youths who join gangs? They're usually from poorer neighborhoods and might have parents who wouldn't exactly think of shipping them to such facilities.
These camps, youth centers, reprogramming facilities, etc. don't cater to parents with troubled teens. They cater to parents of teens who have disposable income. Teens are usually complicated to deal with. Always have been, always will be.
They're legal, they're terrible, they're the result of a culture of violence and retribution, a culture that views tough love as a great way to deal with teens, a culture that prefers silent teens to happy teens, a culture that sees conformity and conservatism as the main goal of children upbringings.
So really, you want those facilities to stop being accepted? Good luck, because you have to change a fucking culture to do it.
Thanks for posting about CAFETY, Feral. It's good to know there is a backlash against these groups and that this backlash is becoming stronger and organized.
Yet, at the same time it is hard not to feel anger and frustration. I mean come on, Humanity, we should be beyond all this insane, abusive behavior!
I wish they were a little more organized, honestly. I've been trying to volunteer with them for a couple of years now and outside of the occasional "come to our fundraiser dinner!" email they don't seem to give a shit.
I kind of understand... a little... unless you're a lawyer or you have moneybags, there isn't a lot you can do for them. But still...
Secondly, these facilities are usually rather costly. Most of the youths who join gangs? They're usually from poorer neighborhoods and might have parents who wouldn't exactly think of shipping them to such facilities.
These camps, youth centers, reprogramming facilities, etc. don't cater to parents with troubled teens. They cater to parents of teens who have disposable income. Teens are usually complicated to deal with. Always have been, always will be.
Yeah, pretty much this.
I recognize a little bit of irony that on the one hand, I want there to be more residential mental health facilities, while on the other hand I want these places to be shut down. But not only are these places destructive, they're also catering to (largely) white, conservative, middle-class and upper-class clientele.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
This is just a heads up, but what you're about to read might disturb you, so brace yourself. A company in Utah named "Teen Escort Services" is regularly contracted to kidnap LGBT teenagers in the middle of the night, deport them to a concentration camp in a country that doesn't extradite to the US, and torture them. The goal of these concentration camps is to beat "the gay" out of them. It's legal because homophobic parents sign over legal documents allowing them to go to these camps to "cure" their homosexuality. They are not allowed to leave these camps and are regularly tortured, they are also banned from speaking about the outside world. According to some testimonies, the teenagers tried to rebel against their Nazi overseers, but were gunned down with rubber bullets.
Please don't blame the entire United States for these crimes against humanity. In Utah (and Jamaica, which is where one of the concentration camps is located) teenagers lack the same basic human rights as adults and Utah is known for being predominantly Mormon. For those of you who don't know, Mormonism is a radical far right wing sect of Christianity that often does outrageous things and promotes incest, inbreeding, and now apparently the kidnapping & false imprisonment of minors. This is legal because the companies involved "donated" large sums of money to many politicians and the leader of one of the concentration camp operating companies, World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools, is a close personal friend of many politicians, including Mitt Romney.
On May 10th of 2007 at around 2:30 in the morning two strangers barged into my bedroom. I started screaming and crying, as in my mind I was sure that these two strangers had broken into my house and were going to abduct me, rape me, kill me, or in some way harm me. They immediately told me that if I did not shut up that they would handcuff me. I was not being in any way violent or threatening. I was reacting in fear for my life by being vocal and hoping that someone would come to help. I had no idea what was going on. I stopped screaming, still in fear for my life. They started going through my closet digging out clothes as I was only in a night gown. They still had not explained what was going on. I asked, frightened, what the wanted from me, trying to see if I could in some way appease them and get them to leave. They then explained that they were going to take me to a school. It took me a second to understand what they meant by this, as this was an extremely bizarre way to introduce a child to a new school. It then occurred to me that this was what my mother had arranged for my brother several years ago when she had him shipped away to Cross Creek. The two strangers were from Teen Escort Service, a for-profit company that transports teenagers, usually by force, to WWASP (World Wide Association of Specialty Programs) facilities.
I was extremely upset and cried the entire trip, but I obeyed all of their orders. Even though I was being cooperative they said it was their policy to put a belt around the bust of the child and hold the belt so that there would be no chance of attempting to run. It was so humiliating to be led around like a fucking dog around the airport. It was also extremely uncomfortable to have this strange older male putting his hand so close to my breast. I never understood how any of this was legal but definitely knew that none of it was ethical. To this day I feel extremely angered, disturbed, and violated by this entire experience. In addition to this they “forgot” all of the psychiatric medication I had been on at my house. It’s not that I am for psychiatric meds, but it certainly did not feel healthy or normal to go from taking this medication regularly, to just not having it and stopping with out tapering off of it.
From the moment I arrived at Cross Creek, I was treated as though I was broken, dirty, and inhuman. During my stay I saw many others treated this way. I had never spoken to R., the program director, before and my first experience with him was horrible. He asked me why I was there, and I told him all of the things I’d done that I could think of that could possibly be perceived as “bad”. He yelled at me, saying that I was lying and that I didn’t love or care about my parents. I was shocked and confused, unsure of what I had done to deserve this treatment from someone I had just met. To this day, the only thing I can think of that I possibly could have left out was my attraction to other females. In one of the Parent-Child seminars we were made to attend, my mother shared with me that this was one of the biggest “issues” that caused her to send me to Cross Creek. Not the drugs, not the sex (she told me she had no knowledge of me being sexually active prior to being forced to disclose it to her), not the issues with school, but just the fact that there was a possibility that one day I might fall in love with a female. Sorry for not realizing what a horrible, broken child this made me, R.
Shortly after I arrived, my “HOPE buddy” (the student they assign to “mentor” you and teach you the rules in your first few weeks) started asking me about my past, why I was there, and what issues I needed to work on. I talked briefly about my experimentation with soft drugs, my issues with depression (something I’m pretty sure most teenagers experience), and the abusive relationship I had been in with my first girlfriend. As soon as I said the words “girl” and “relationship” in the same sentence she said “STOP! STOP! We can’t talk about that.” I was filled with shame regarding my sexuality simply from the fact that I was not even allowed to talk about homosexuality in any way shape or form. Shortly after this incident I started talking to the therapist they assigned me to there about this abusive relationship I had experienced, and how it bothered me that I was not allowed to talk about a part of me that I have no control over. His response was that I DID have a choice over whether or not I was attracted to females and that I should just deal with these thoughts of same sex attraction. His opinion was that this was probably a result of some anger I had toward men, particularly my dad and that I probably just wanted to be with females because they were “safer” (even though I had been with an abusive female before!!!) He also said that ultimately this was probably just a phase and a result of my crazy teenage hormones. He believed that if I tried hard enough and ignored these thoughts and feelings one day I might marry a nice boy.
I had no interest in having a relationship with anyone there, but when other girls formed relationships with each other, the repercussions were pretty extreme. I understood why it was not allowed, as relationships are generally distracting no matter the gender of either partner, but the way people were treated was pretty unnecessary in my opinion. It usually involved lots of yelling, ostracizing, and shaming. I remember one R. meeting where two girls were being confronted about this and R. was yelling about how stupid they were being and how no one would be able to trust them now. He went on to say that he had “nothing against homosexuality, but it was not the way God intended things.” and that the Bible definitely did not condone it. These “God” and bible references were used on a regular basis, along with religious videos, praying, etc. even though Cross Creek claimed that they were not in any way religious. The rule book and protocol also appeared to be directly based off of the Mormon religion (no caffeine etc.) The program reprimanded children for telling their parents about this religious influence and regularly tried to hide it from parents. I am in no way against people having their own beliefs and following what ever religion is right for them, however I think that it’s completely and totally immoral to lie to parents about what they are getting. More on this later.
The queer shaming was present in nearly every aspect of the program, including the language used. We were not allowed to use curse words such as “shit”, or “bitch”, but I never saw anyone reprimanded for saying “fag” or “faggot.” This fostered an environment in which teasing and bullying for all sorts of things were fully tolerated. I even remember a facilitator in a seminar trying to trigger a girl by calling her a “dyke.” And no, before you say something, I really don’t care about breaking confidentiality of seminars at this point because I am fed up. What these people said and did broke me down and created so much shame inside of me.
In addition to shaming people on basis of sexual orientation, they taught children that sex was evil and damaging outside of marriage, another blatantly religious notion. We were forced to regularly watch videos involving horror stories of abortions gone wrong, shown gruesome pictures of STDs that had been left unattended for long periods of time, and told that if we had sex before marriage we would likely die or get some horrible ailment. Rather than promoting safer sex methods, we were shown that abstinence was the only option that would not result in death or unwanted pregnancy.
Rigid gender roles were also a big part of the Cross Creek way of life. Many of the rules were extremely gender based. Boys were allowed to crack their backs and knuckles, though girls were not because it was “unladylike”. Boys got meal portions double the size of girls. Boys were allowed to use more curse words than girls were. The list goes on.
I remember when they moved the girls from Center 1 to Pro 1 (these are all names of the dorms we stayed in.) The boys had been living in Pro 1, and when they moved the girls in the dorms were extremely messy. Rather than having the boys come back and clean up this mess, they made the girls clean all day. This was completely, and totally humiliating. What a great way to build confidence and teach girls how to be independent and stand up for themselves.
Before I say this next part, I want to state that it is not my intention to bash all of the staff at Cross Creek. Some of the staff were very supportive (A.D., M.C., etc.) and this is not in any way meant to be directed at you, nor is it a blanket statement. There were staff however, that made me feel very unsafe and uncomfortable. Some of the staff, in my opinion, were downright cruel, hurtful and borderline (if not blatantly) abusive. I can’t tell you how many times I saw staff make comments about myself or others insinuating that we were bad children, unclean, impure, dirty, not innocent, untrustable, the list goes on. The grievance system that was in place was, in my opinion, ineffective on the whole. From being a part of the student government system for some time that handled grievances, I observed that grievance system, like everything else at Cross Creek, put the blame on the student and diverted responsibility away from the adult.
I’d also like to mention how many times I saw staff and administration, tackle and restrain children when it was completely unnecessary. So many times I saw kids simply refuse to go to gym class or get out of bed and as punishment they were violently tackled, restrained in a painful position, and taken to a small isolation room where they were usually watched by two or three staff members. This was also what they did when a child harmed themselves. This method is extremely violent, and I remember at least one incident that happened when I was there where they tackled a girl and restrained her face down against the ground and as a result she got rug burn on her face to the point that she was bleeding and had visible scabs on her face. Another time a girl shared that being tackled and restrained gave her flashbacks of a rape she’d experienced, to which the program director responded that he felt no remorse for it and that it was really her fault for doing what ever she’d done to be restrained. You could argue that this might be appropriate in cases where a kid is being violent towards others, but from what I saw, more often than not, this was absolutely not the case and the child being restrained was not being violent. In addition to tackling and restraint being (in my humble opinion) immoral, it is unsafe, and this has been proven. If you look on the website for the Coalition Against Institutionalized Child Abuse, you can see a long list of deaths that have occurred in “behavioral modification” facilities not unlike Cross Creek as a result of tackling and restraint. http://www.caica.org/RESTRAINTS%20Death%20List.htm
Cross Creek’s methods of “therapy” and recovery were also extremely invasive, humiliating, and in my opinion did much more harm than good. As someone who does intern work at a local rape treatment center and talks with victims of assault on a regular basis, as well as being someone who has survived various forms of violence and abuse, I have seen how damaging it can be to force someone to share about such delicate issues before they are fully prepared and ready. I can not speak for every one, but for me, being forced to disclose information that was not ready to come out was extremely painful and humiliating. The seminars based your success on how “emotional” you were, meaning that if you did not share some horrible part of your life or simply did not have one, or if you were not crying and sniveling while you did it, you were booted out of the seminar and forced to stay in the program another two months. The obsession the program had with “accountability” also led to them blaming people who had experienced abuse for their abusive situations. I vividly remember a facilitator yelling at a girl while kicking her out of a seminar for not participating or being “real” enough. She told her in an extremely vivid and foul language (the f-bomb included) that if she continued the behavior that got her to the program she would be raped again. She had the student write an essay on this.
I will forever be haunted by the day that I was in group and the program director barged in and started saying that it’s as if I have “ABUSE ME” written on my forehead, insinuating that I was just asking to be abused in some way by the way that I carried and presented myself. I carry so much shame from this comment, and because of it constantly have to remind myself not to blame myself for the abuse I have experienced.
The way that Cross Creek taught me to interact with people was to analyze every facial expression, action, and word, and reflect this back to them in a cold, harsh, and usually demeaning way. I feel so much remorse for the way I treated people at Cross Creek, as well as the way I allowed people to treat me. It took me a while after I graduated to discover that this method did not work at all in the real world, and that if I was to have any friends, I would need to drop the robotic, unempathetic, and borderline malicious way of interacting with others that I had learned to use for two and a half years. I’d like to sincerely apologize to those of you who spent time with me at Cross Creek that I treated this way. I feel nothing but sadness when I realize how heartless and programmed I became.
What disturbs me more than anything is that I believed all of the things I was told. When people use the word “brainwashing” to describe what went on at Cross Creek and other WWASP programs, I don’t think it is in any way exaggerating or being over dramatic when you consider all of the media we were FORCED to watch, read, and listen to. The program director used to joke about and downplay the brainwashing claims by saying that some of our brains “could really use some washing.” The “educational/emotional growth” videos we had to watch twice a day, the “motivational” tapes three times a day, the “self-help” books we were forced to read, and more than anything the “motivational seminars” with facilitators up in your face yelling about all the things you did wrong to mess up your life and land yourself in a program all contributed to this. With all of this influence coming at me from every direction at every moment I believed that following the rules, “working my program”, going to the seminars, etc. was genuinely going to improve my self esteem, my relationship with my parents, and the overall outcome of my life. I tried hard to follow the endless list of rules, be “accountable”, and when I got “dirty in my program” (another good example of shaming lingo and language that means you broke rules without giving yourself demerits) I would confess and take the consequences what ever consequences were involved.
I by no means had a perfect program, but I gave it all of my honest effort and did what I could to be a good Cross Creek student. By putting faith in this system however, I also internalized all of the stigma, shame, and religious beliefs forced upon me. I believed that maybe if I just suppressed my sexuality , as well as ignored my obvious attraction to girls, that maybe all of this would go away. My body and subconscious reacted to this. Shortly after arriving at Cross Creek, I stopped getting my period for about 8 months. This was apparently a common thing that happened in the program when girls first arrived, as the body was reacting to some serious stress. I also started wetting the bed shortly after arriving at the program. This had not been an issue for me since the age of 3 or 4. This bed wetting issue continued until I left the program. After I graduated, it stopped completely.
The program director and other administration on several occasions acknowledged that Tranquility Bay, another WWASP program that has now much to my relief been shut down, did indeed have an infamous history of reported abuse. He used this to say that we were so very “fortunate” to be in Cross Creek and not at programs like that. Yet kids who were “acting out too much” at Cross Creek were sent to Tranquility Bay as punishment. Some have said that Tranquility Bay was merely a “last resort” or that the things that happened at TB were just a “part of Jamaican culture” but I would have to strongly disagree about both of those things. Since when is abuse ever an appropriate option? It isn’t. No matter what someone has done, it’s not okay. It is also extremely racist and ethnocentric to say that abuse is just a part of the culture of Jamaica, especially when you look at American society, which I could very well say the same thing about.
Shortly after I left the program I was raped. I shared what happened with my mother, who then told me, like Cross Creek did, that it was my fault, I asked for it, and that I should have known it would happen. She then proceeded to share her own twisted version of the story with my Cross Creek therapist, who shared it with my group. I was mortified and my self-esteem was completely destroyed by this utter lack of confidentiality and complete betrayal of trust.
It has taken me so much time to recover and de-program myself from all of the lies I was fed at Cross Creek. It took me a while to realize just how badly and inappropriately I and others had been treated at this facility. It’s not to say that there were not a few small kernels of wisdom that I can still use from the program, but they came at such a huge cost. My soul feels wounded from the things I saw and experienced at Cross Creek and healing will be a continual process.
If there was one thing that I gained from my experience at Cross Creek, it was realizing that no one regardless of their past or current actions deserves to be treated the way this program and other WWASP facilities treated me and so many other students. Abuse is abuse, no matter how you slice it. This realization along with other life experiences is partially responsible for my current carreer path regarding abuse prevention and recovery, as well as my involvement and activism in the human rights movement.
Even if you choose not to believe me or anything that I have written, there are piles of evidence to support the idea that there is mistreatment at Cross Creek and other WWASP affiliated facilities. A little bit of research will reveal that this lawsuit is not the first that WWASP or Cross Creek has faced. My therapist used to use a phrase when he suspected that kids were “dirty in their program.” He used to say “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire...” That is certainly the case with WWASP and Cross Creek. There is a reason that the Coalition Against Institutionalized Child Abuse, Community Alliance for The Ethical Treatment of Youth, and many other organizations like them exist. There is a reason why seventeen WWASP affiliated schools have been shut down. There is a reason there have been so many lawsuits. Clearly if all of this has happened, I must not be completely insane.
The rebuttal against this argument has included that Cross Creek is no longer a part of WWASP. This argument is pretty much void seeing as they are still directly affiliated in that all of the WWASP affiliated programs still use the same seminars as each other, the same escort service, the same billing company, and are all still a part of Teen Help LLC, the marketing arm of WWASP and the entity that processes admissions paperwork. They also refer to each other and send children to other WWASP affiliated facilities when one facility can’t handle them. I don’t think it would be at all presumptuous to conclude that the people who ran WWASP are the same people who are still raking in all of the money with these programs.
WWASP officials claim that the organization itself is out of business, probably because of their infamous history of abuse, but clearly all of the WWASP programs are still affiliated and WWASP has not completely faded out. Many schools have changed their names multiple times, including Cross Creek (formerly Browning Academy) and it’s clear to me that there is a lot of shadiness and hiding goes on with in these programs. It seems as though WWASP and it’s affiliates are trying to sweep some things under the rug, and outright lie to parents, students, former students, and the general public.
Here’s a bit about the history of WWASP and Cross Creek. WWASP was founded by Robert Browning Lichfeild. He started Browning Academy, now Cross Creek, the first WWASP affiliated school in 1987, at a time when he had little money and was living in a small apartment with his wife and four children. His field of study was in business (he attained absolutely no credentials or education in psychology, therapy, or education) though he never graduated college and within several years he had become a very rich individual and had added many more schools to his chain of “behavior modification”/”tough love” schools. He was indeed mormon and has, in several interviews stated that God was his inspiration in starting these schools and one of his goals was to “get kids in touch with their higher source.” He is also a major contributor to the Republican party, donating thousands of dollars each year http://www.city-data.com/elec2/elec-LA-VERKIN-UT.html. From what I’ve read his massive sum of money and big political influence have gotten him and his colleagues out of the situations in which he and his criminal organization have been questioned. But please, do not take my word for it. Do your own research. This information is readily available to those who are willing to look.
This reminded me of nothing so much as "Valerie's Letter" in V For Vendetta. I can only wonder what sort of thought process goes through the minds of the "parents" contracting such people. Can they possibly imagine that their child would be grateful afterwards? Happy? Glad to see them?
While I'm aware that I don't have the same response set as everyone, the primary feeling that an experience like this would leave me with would be a furious, vengeful, murderous vindictiveness to whoever subjected me to it.
Even a far more gentle, forgiving person than me would surely, surely, at the very least be desperate to never have anything to do with their "family" ever again. How could one possibly ever have any kind of relationship with someone who had done this?
I suppose if nothing else, this story should remind us that many people will do almost anything to themselves and those they love rather than deal with a reality they dislike. 1500 years on, Canute's lesson has still not been learned...
While the comparison to concentration camps is hyperbolic and unneeded, the ability to involuntarily commit your children to placements is something that can't keep going on.
Sorry, wrong again, it was used in the first paragraph of the OP.
The thread TITLE is a godwin.
The Nazis weren't the first or last to use concentration camps. Yes, the reference to Nazis in the OP was hyperbole and a godwin, but it's neither to refer to the worst of these facilities as concentration camps. Forced imprisonment? Check. No communication with the outside world? Check. Manual labor? Check. Physical and mental abuse? Check. Squalid conditions? No privacy? Poor/nonexistent medical care? Some of these facilities are effectively internment camps.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
That's why I said that while they're not targeting teens that are actually in trouble, the odds are that they'll get a few who are eventually anyway. And I think you drastically underestimate how desparate parents can get, maybe even especially poor parents, when they see their kids start to get involved in gangs.
This particular setup seems more setup to target parents who are worried about either incredibly minor, normal shit and have no fucking clue how to deal with a teenager or are just flat homophobic, but parents can and will go to extreme lengths to try to help their kids. You're very right that the fact that they think sending them to be shamed and abused is helping, but as was mentioned earlier in this thread there are legitimate juvenille centers run by trained personnel. These dirtbags are just conflating their abuse with these prisons in order to draw in business from idiot and/or bigoted parents.
And finally yeah, I think it *is* perfectly fine that someone gets shot while 'just doing their job'. At least is is when talking about someone who makes their living abducting children and transporting them, against their will, to a place where they will be abused emotionally, psycologically, and physically.
JihadJesus on
0
Options
21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
That's why I said that while they're not targeting teens that are actually in trouble, the odds are that they'll get a few who are eventually anyway. And I think you drastically underestimate how desparate parents can get, maybe even especially poor parents, when they see their kids start to get involved in gangs.
This particular setup seems more setup to target parents who are worried about either incredibly minor, normal shit and have no fucking clue how to deal with a teenager or are just flat homophobic, but parents can and will go to extreme lengths to try to help their kids. You're very right that the fact that they think sending them to be shamed and abused is helping, but as was mentioned earlier in this thread there are legitimate juvenille centers run by trained personnel. These dirtbags are just conflating their abuse with these prisons in order to draw in business from idiot and/or bigoted parents.
And finally yeah, I think it *is* perfectly fine that someone gets shot while 'just doing their job'. At least is is when talking about someone who makes their living abducting children and transporting them, against their will, to a place where they will be abused emotionally, psycologically, and physically.
Also, to be fair to the parents, they abuse is pretty much never used as a selling point. Those WWASP facilities don't actually show anything. They tout buzzwords like "tough love" and promise obedient children, they don't actually say a whole lot. Parents aren't allowed to visit the premises. It actually happens fairly often that parents will enroll their children in a program and quickly work to take them back out when they realize what actually goes on within the walls.
Really, a lot of the groups against WWASP are composed of parents, not just survivors. Don't judge the parents as if they knowingly send the to be abused. In a lot of cases, they are completely unsure of how to deal with the problems. Don't blame parents for WWASP's existence, blame WWASP for the damage it does.
As for the company that escorts the teens? They're not actually kidnapping because it's done with the parents' consent. Like it's been mentioned, while the teens are in transit between their home and the facility, the escort company's employee is their temporary guardian.
Again, I must stress it, It's my belief that no one deserve to be shot at or killed because they work for something you disagree with.
Again, I must stress it, It's my belief that no one deserve to be shot at or killed because they work for something you disagree with.
I'm sorry but you're conflating the parents' (perhaps willfull, but let it pass) ignorance with the direct and personal knowledge that these escorts have of exactly what goes on in these places. Let's not mince words: they're knowingly deceiving the parents of children in order to take those children to a place where the escorts themselves definitely know that those children will be abused and tortured. (Or they're complicit with the parents in doing so, which makes it infinitessimally better: It means they're only committing a crime against the child, not the family as well)
People who abduct children in order to abuse them for a living dont deserve to face the consequences for the job they do? What?
I mean I don't see how much worse, morally speaking, a job could be. I guess those death squads in Latin American countries who straight up kill street children are worse, but not by a huge margin. Especially given the fatality rate in those camps.
Yeah... no. There comes a point where you have to say "If anyone deserves to die for what they do, that guy does." And these guys are well past it.
Seriously. "I was just doing my job" hasn't been a defense against liability for gross human rights violations since at lease Nuremberg. Unless you're going to take the position that it's just peachy for teens to be taken against their will to be imprisoned, abused, and re-programmed as long as their parents okay it you can't really argue otherwise.
And I should point out that this requires you to essentially view children as property with no inviolable rights, and to assume that every parent with a child in these facilities has sent them there with full knowledge of the treatment they will receive there.
Along with Somalia, the United States is one of only two countries in the world which have not ratified the Convention.
That's pretty fucked up.
It's depressing just how many times you see things like this, where every single developed nation is on one side and the other side is just the United States and a few failed states.
Somalia has been making noises about finally ratifying this treaty for the last two years as well, the only thing that stops them is that there is still pretty much no government in place that has the authority to actually enforce it. I can't understand how the US not ratifying the treaty hasn't become more of an international embarrassment for them, as not being party to it has forced US delegates to the UN to vote against resolutions such as the prevention of violence against children where they are the only UN member state to vote in such a way.
Posts
they have entire networks and forums devoted to struggling with same sex attraction
they call it "dealing with SSA"
the entire culture is devoted to minimizing queer identity and squashing it when it does come to fruition
the entire culture is racist, hell-bent on subverting lesser cultures with Mormonism, and more willing to offer a book of Mormon than a decent uplifting charitable motion for impoverished countries
BYU is straight out of the 50's and they have posters everywhere on how to dress as a woman
tl;dr Mormonism is virulently racist, homophobic, misogynistic, and couched in friendly, loving rhetoric.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Yeah, he didn't say that either. If they haven't broken any laws the government really isn't allowed to do anything about it. Which is not to say they couldn't pass a law, and then enforce it. Only that they can't enforce where no law exists. It's generally how we prefer our governments to work.
--LeVar Burton
They force complete and utter no contact.
Any kind of dissent is handled this way.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
You could tell them how terrible they were and they would just tell you how sorry they were that you felt that way.
They are taught "to feel the testament burning in their hearts" and nothing an outsider can say will bother them.
Internally, they probably think you are hilarious and sad because you won't be getting your own planet for you and your family on the Celestial Kingdom plane.
I've done no such distillation. The tenets of Mormonism are built at a social level, so that they can be swiftly enforced on the Mormon individual.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Because you said this:
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
This sure seems odd, given that my grandfather and father (and a good number of other relatives of mine, the extended family is roughly split between mormon and non-mormon) left the church. And no one acted or acts like that. If anything the rest of the mormon community just visited them more, hoping to convince them to come back. They were never exiled from or cut off from anything, other than I suppose access to the temple (access to which is almost always restricted to followers only, though I recall the temple near me opening up to the public for tours once.)
And the mormons still get together with the former-mormons too on holidays and family reunions.
Well fuck, I guess I better go tell my family that we've been doing it wrong, because some guy on the internet says we're supposed to be totally cut off, because 'they' force complete and utter no contact, and any kind of dissent is handed this way.
They just actively support baby eaters and are part of a religion in which its founder used his position to force women to fuck him. That is so much better.
http://web.archive.org/web/20011201123951/www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-120101mormons.story
It's an insularity born of laziness and routine really, and it's something the top-tier Mormon leadership recognizes, dislikes and discourages, which is more than a lot of conservative religious communities with the same problem can claim.
And while it's a problem in Mormon-dense Utah and a few localized communities, it's really not something you'll see too much outside of Utah. Mormons raised in California in the last ten years, for instance, tend to be comparatively open minded people with broad social circles.
I'll be the first to point out a lot of core hypocrisies and problems with the Mormon church as an institution, but you've already gone too far if you claim that Mormons in particular are worse in any specific respect than religious conservatives in general.
Now if you really want to push the issue and complain about Mormon communities shutting out publicly self-proclaimed apostates, well... I honestly have to wonder what kind of apostate sits around feeling bad that they don't have enough friends amongst the community of faithful Mormons, and I would wholeheartedly recommend making some friends outside of that community.
Sorry, but the x is always evil argument just doesn't cut it for me. I get that it's easier to paint groups you view as enemies to be subhuman monsters so that it's easier to hate them, but that doesn't make it right.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
And I challenge you to show me one Mormon who gives at least equal time to the church and pro-gay groups.
This isn't really a viable setup you're talking about here. I flew my oldest daughter to see her grandmother in Boston last year. She used a school ID to get on the plane, after I called the airport and informed them she was flying. With a system like this, how would she have gotten home?
My case represents the overwhelming majority of situations. Also, as far as I can recall there is no restriction on children over 14 flying alone wherever they like, as long as they have ID.
Pfft, ancient history. Mississippi didn't ratify the 13th Amendment, banning slavery, until 1995.
The Mormon Church is despicable in many ways, but they've got a built it and very convenient way for God himself to issue politically expedient retcons at any time. When openly opposing gay rights is just as fringe and ruled just as unconstitutional as openly opposing black civil rights the LDS church will just *happen* to get the memo.
You know, from God. Totally not in response to the current political or legal climate.
[Edit]
In response to this camp thing, it'll be terrible (or terribly awesome) when some parents decide they need to ship their 'troubled teen' off for some reprogramming....and the teen actually is in trouble getting into gangs or something, and shoots these kidnapping motherfuckers right in the face when they bust into his room.
Granted, the 'do you need to brainwash your teen?' quiz is obviously meant to get every teen sent there, but they've got to get a kid who's genuinely involved in some shady things eventually, right?
First of all, people getting shot in the face is never "awesome", especially when it's just people doing their job.
Secondly, these facilities are usually rather costly. Most of the youths who join gangs? They're usually from poorer neighborhoods and might have parents who wouldn't exactly think of shipping them to such facilities.
These camps, youth centers, reprogramming facilities, etc. don't cater to parents with troubled teens. They cater to parents of teens who have disposable income. Teens are usually complicated to deal with. Always have been, always will be.
They're legal, they're terrible, they're the result of a culture of violence and retribution, a culture that views tough love as a great way to deal with teens, a culture that prefers silent teens to happy teens, a culture that sees conformity and conservatism as the main goal of children upbringings.
So really, you want those facilities to stop being accepted? Good luck, because you have to change a fucking culture to do it.
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
I wish they were a little more organized, honestly. I've been trying to volunteer with them for a couple of years now and outside of the occasional "come to our fundraiser dinner!" email they don't seem to give a shit.
I kind of understand... a little... unless you're a lawyer or you have moneybags, there isn't a lot you can do for them. But still...
Yeah, pretty much this.
I recognize a little bit of irony that on the one hand, I want there to be more residential mental health facilities, while on the other hand I want these places to be shut down. But not only are these places destructive, they're also catering to (largely) white, conservative, middle-class and upper-class clientele.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
This reminded me of nothing so much as "Valerie's Letter" in V For Vendetta. I can only wonder what sort of thought process goes through the minds of the "parents" contracting such people. Can they possibly imagine that their child would be grateful afterwards? Happy? Glad to see them?
While I'm aware that I don't have the same response set as everyone, the primary feeling that an experience like this would leave me with would be a furious, vengeful, murderous vindictiveness to whoever subjected me to it.
Even a far more gentle, forgiving person than me would surely, surely, at the very least be desperate to never have anything to do with their "family" ever again. How could one possibly ever have any kind of relationship with someone who had done this?
I suppose if nothing else, this story should remind us that many people will do almost anything to themselves and those they love rather than deal with a reality they dislike. 1500 years on, Canute's lesson has still not been learned...
The Nazis weren't the first or last to use concentration camps. Yes, the reference to Nazis in the OP was hyperbole and a godwin, but it's neither to refer to the worst of these facilities as concentration camps. Forced imprisonment? Check. No communication with the outside world? Check. Manual labor? Check. Physical and mental abuse? Check. Squalid conditions? No privacy? Poor/nonexistent medical care? Some of these facilities are effectively internment camps.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
You'd be extremely lucky if that was all the consequence you faced.
This particular setup seems more setup to target parents who are worried about either incredibly minor, normal shit and have no fucking clue how to deal with a teenager or are just flat homophobic, but parents can and will go to extreme lengths to try to help their kids. You're very right that the fact that they think sending them to be shamed and abused is helping, but as was mentioned earlier in this thread there are legitimate juvenille centers run by trained personnel. These dirtbags are just conflating their abuse with these prisons in order to draw in business from idiot and/or bigoted parents.
And finally yeah, I think it *is* perfectly fine that someone gets shot while 'just doing their job'. At least is is when talking about someone who makes their living abducting children and transporting them, against their will, to a place where they will be abused emotionally, psycologically, and physically.
Also, to be fair to the parents, they abuse is pretty much never used as a selling point. Those WWASP facilities don't actually show anything. They tout buzzwords like "tough love" and promise obedient children, they don't actually say a whole lot. Parents aren't allowed to visit the premises. It actually happens fairly often that parents will enroll their children in a program and quickly work to take them back out when they realize what actually goes on within the walls.
Really, a lot of the groups against WWASP are composed of parents, not just survivors. Don't judge the parents as if they knowingly send the to be abused. In a lot of cases, they are completely unsure of how to deal with the problems. Don't blame parents for WWASP's existence, blame WWASP for the damage it does.
As for the company that escorts the teens? They're not actually kidnapping because it's done with the parents' consent. Like it's been mentioned, while the teens are in transit between their home and the facility, the escort company's employee is their temporary guardian.
Again, I must stress it, It's my belief that no one deserve to be shot at or killed because they work for something you disagree with.
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
There is a level of evil that transcends tolerance.
I'm sorry but you're conflating the parents' (perhaps willfull, but let it pass) ignorance with the direct and personal knowledge that these escorts have of exactly what goes on in these places. Let's not mince words: they're knowingly deceiving the parents of children in order to take those children to a place where the escorts themselves definitely know that those children will be abused and tortured. (Or they're complicit with the parents in doing so, which makes it infinitessimally better: It means they're only committing a crime against the child, not the family as well)
People who abduct children in order to abuse them for a living dont deserve to face the consequences for the job they do? What?
I mean I don't see how much worse, morally speaking, a job could be. I guess those death squads in Latin American countries who straight up kill street children are worse, but not by a huge margin. Especially given the fatality rate in those camps.
Yeah... no. There comes a point where you have to say "If anyone deserves to die for what they do, that guy does." And these guys are well past it.
And I should point out that this requires you to essentially view children as property with no inviolable rights, and to assume that every parent with a child in these facilities has sent them there with full knowledge of the treatment they will receive there.
Somalia has been making noises about finally ratifying this treaty for the last two years as well, the only thing that stops them is that there is still pretty much no government in place that has the authority to actually enforce it. I can't understand how the US not ratifying the treaty hasn't become more of an international embarrassment for them, as not being party to it has forced US delegates to the UN to vote against resolutions such as the prevention of violence against children where they are the only UN member state to vote in such a way.
3DS friend code: 4811-7214-5053