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The Decline of Manliness in Contemporary Society

1246

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  • Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2011
    I don't think anybody here is calling you dumb for hitting another person, just incredibly misguided. They're calling you dumb for hitting a person while they're driving a car.

    Bionic Monkey on
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  • EnigEnig a.k.a. Ansatz Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Quid wrote: »
    Lucid wrote: »
    Hank; What negative would there be to letting him say whatever he wants. He can speak but you aren't forced to listen.

    It just seems like you have poor mediation and/or coping skills when it comes to this fellow antagonizing you.

    Whatever, let's just cut through this and get to the point. You believe that even the slightest hit is worse than anything someone can say? If so I disagree heavily and there's nothing else to say.

    Can you explain why you can't ignore those words?
    While responding to verbal abuse with physical violence is not the highest path, we are all human and sometimes people push us too far. Of course it is the case that responding with physical violence is actually a weakness of character, but it is an understandable one.

    Cut the holier than thou nonsense guys. We can't all be Ghandi.

    Enig on
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  • Hank_ScorpioHank_Scorpio Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I guess I didn't word it right but the car was parked and off. I told him to pull over and then I hit him in the side of the head as soon as he turned it off.

    Hank_Scorpio on
  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Why are we even arguing here? The thread's started by an obvious troll alt (Join date 05-28-2011, barely more than 10 posts, and baiting arguments).

    vagrant_winds on
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  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Questioning someone's behaviour isn't holier than thou.
    Most of us live in a culture where initiating physical violence is rarely the best answer, but that doesn't magically make it a non-option in every situation for every person.
    I don't believe anyone in this thread has stated violence can never be involved in any situation.

    Lucid on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Enig wrote: »
    While responding to verbal abuse with physical violence is not the highest path, we are all human and sometimes people push us too far.

    There is a significant difference between giving in during a moment of strong emotion and declaring it's a personal failing not to attack people who say things you personally don't like.

    Quid on
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Why are we even arguing here? The thread's started by an obvious troll alt (Join date 05-28-2011, barely more than 10 posts, and baiting arguments).

    Is that Yaoi in your avatar. It's some you would say isn't it?

    mrt144 on
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I can't draw from official statistics or surveys or anything outside my own experience. I thought I explained it well enough. If you guys disagree, that's fine, you all probably have totally different experiences than I do. But resorting to condescension annoys the hell out of me when I've spent a decent amount of time trying to explain a point and even using personal examples I didn't want to use. To me, it shows a lack of manliness and courage to never be willing to put someone in their place through physical violence should the verbal intent be hostile enough. And that's that. And anyone who's thinking of calling me dumb for thinking that should think about what you would say in person-to-person conversation.
    Are you really saying that nobody you know would call you dumb in person? Are you just that intelligent or just that prone to violence?

    Either way, if we ever get a chance to meet up I'll totally tell you that is a dumb position.

    Unless you're, like, armed.

    Bama on
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited June 2011
    Some people get their asses kicked for being assholes. Some for being brown, white, red, or wearing the wrong colors.

    All those people generally internalize the same lessons. Getting your ass kicked sucks, it's better to kick ass than not, and it's better to be inside an ass-kicking group than out.

    Elki on
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  • immortal squishimmortal squish Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Variable wrote: »
    jail didn't scare your dad but you punching him did?

    Jail doesn't scare a lot of people, as they aren't thinking that far ahead or don't see themselves as in the wrong. Sometimes a punch in the face (espcially from someone unexpected) can get someone to better consider the consequences of their actions. Of course, sometimes that particular method can backfire into more violence, so...

    immortal squish on
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  • Hank_ScorpioHank_Scorpio Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Bama wrote: »
    I can't draw from official statistics or surveys or anything outside my own experience. I thought I explained it well enough. If you guys disagree, that's fine, you all probably have totally different experiences than I do. But resorting to condescension annoys the hell out of me when I've spent a decent amount of time trying to explain a point and even using personal examples I didn't want to use. To me, it shows a lack of manliness and courage to never be willing to put someone in their place through physical violence should the verbal intent be hostile enough. And that's that. And anyone who's thinking of calling me dumb for thinking that should think about what you would say in person-to-person conversation.
    Are you really saying that nobody you know would call you dumb in person? Are you just that intelligent or just that prone to violence?

    Either way, if we ever get a chance to meet up I'll totally tell you that is a dumb position.

    Unless you're, like, armed.

    I don't know anyone who's that big of a jerk. And most of the people I know would agree that there are circumstances when someone does deserve to be slapped at the very least. And anyone who doesn't would just disagree, and not be condescending about it.

    Hank_Scorpio on
  • EnigEnig a.k.a. Ansatz Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Troll thread or not the question is kind of interesting.

    It is actually a bit difficult to define "manly" now that I think about it. If pressed I would generally just say it is virtues like courage, strength, stoicism and loyalty, mixed in with social presence and leadership.

    But really all of those things can be expressed by women also, especially in modern times.

    Enig on
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  • Element BrianElement Brian Peanut Butter Shill Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    The concern of a decline in masculinity has been a concern in America for a long time.

    During the 19th century, there was concern that men were become more feminine as they moved away from rural life styles and with the rise of intellectualism. There were a few sort of movements towards this and many essays written about it, such as the christian masculinity. This is one explanation of the rise of sports in America, including the legalization of boxing. There was also a rise of novels in the early 20th century, like the Adventures of Frank Meriwell by Burt Standish which popularized the idea of achieving masculinity through sports, (and a boy scout type lifestyle).

    Basically the idea of a threat is there, so there have been strong pushes towards more "masculine" activities and approval of these activities.

    Element Brian on
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  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    The problem with this deserve talk, is that you're arbitrarily positioning yourself as the arbiter of punishment to another person that is causing you discomfort. This is bad because violence is an aspect of humanity that can be very prone to escalation and therefore not worth choosing over other non violent options. The question then becomes; what gives you the right to decide who gets physically punished? Just because they're saying mean things to you?

    Lucid on
  • BamaBama Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Bama wrote: »
    I can't draw from official statistics or surveys or anything outside my own experience. I thought I explained it well enough. If you guys disagree, that's fine, you all probably have totally different experiences than I do. But resorting to condescension annoys the hell out of me when I've spent a decent amount of time trying to explain a point and even using personal examples I didn't want to use. To me, it shows a lack of manliness and courage to never be willing to put someone in their place through physical violence should the verbal intent be hostile enough. And that's that. And anyone who's thinking of calling me dumb for thinking that should think about what you would say in person-to-person conversation.
    Are you really saying that nobody you know would call you dumb in person? Are you just that intelligent or just that prone to violence?

    Either way, if we ever get a chance to meet up I'll totally tell you that is a dumb position.

    Unless you're, like, armed.

    I don't know anyone who's that big of a jerk. And most of the people I know would agree that there are circumstances when someone does deserve to be slapped at the very least. And anyone who doesn't would just disagree, and not be condescending about it.
    Well I guess I can't fault you for not being able to handle disagreement if you've never really been exposed to it before.

    Bama on
  • Hank_ScorpioHank_Scorpio Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Bama wrote: »
    Bama wrote: »
    I can't draw from official statistics or surveys or anything outside my own experience. I thought I explained it well enough. If you guys disagree, that's fine, you all probably have totally different experiences than I do. But resorting to condescension annoys the hell out of me when I've spent a decent amount of time trying to explain a point and even using personal examples I didn't want to use. To me, it shows a lack of manliness and courage to never be willing to put someone in their place through physical violence should the verbal intent be hostile enough. And that's that. And anyone who's thinking of calling me dumb for thinking that should think about what you would say in person-to-person conversation.
    Are you really saying that nobody you know would call you dumb in person? Are you just that intelligent or just that prone to violence?

    Either way, if we ever get a chance to meet up I'll totally tell you that is a dumb position.

    Unless you're, like, armed.

    I don't know anyone who's that big of a jerk. And most of the people I know would agree that there are circumstances when someone does deserve to be slapped at the very least. And anyone who doesn't would just disagree, and not be condescending about it.
    Well I guess I can't fault you for not being able to handle disagreement if you've never really been exposed to it before.

    What? There is a huge difference between disagreement and calling someone dumb or an idiot for disagreeing with you. The latter is a personal attack and not something I'm cool with.

    Hank_Scorpio on
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited June 2011
    Jersey Shore is proof enough that being a manly asshole is alive and well.

    Sheep on
  • Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2011
    I guess I didn't word it right but the car was parked and off. I told him to pull over and then I hit him in the side of the head as soon as he turned it off.

    So, the car was still and parked, and rather than remove yourself from the situation, you attacked him?

    Bionic Monkey on
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  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    What? There is a huge difference between disagreement and calling someone dumb or an idiot for disagreeing with you. The latter is a personal attack and not something I'm cool with.

    Then do the adult thing and either ignore them or leave. Or Hell, tell them they're being hurtful.

    Quid on
  • Hank_ScorpioHank_Scorpio Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I guess I didn't word it right but the car was parked and off. I told him to pull over and then I hit him in the side of the head as soon as he turned it off.

    So, the car was still and parked, and rather than remove yourself from the situation, you attacked him?

    It was in the middle of nowhere, and yeah I "attacked" him if you call a light hit an attack.

    Hank_Scorpio on
  • Hank_ScorpioHank_Scorpio Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Quid wrote: »
    What? There is a huge difference between disagreement and calling someone dumb or an idiot for disagreeing with you. The latter is a personal attack and not something I'm cool with.

    Then do the adult thing and either ignore them or leave. Or Hell, tell them they're being hurtful.

    I call them out on it, yeah. Is this a discussion now? I don't even know how this started. What the guy in the car was saying was a million times worse than someone just calling someone an idiot for disagreeing, for the record.

    Hank_Scorpio on
  • Element BrianElement Brian Peanut Butter Shill Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Oh wait silly me answering a question to the op's post, should have figured it would have derailed into some sort of sexism debate

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  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Quid wrote: »
    What? There is a huge difference between disagreement and calling someone dumb or an idiot for disagreeing with you. The latter is a personal attack and not something I'm cool with.

    Then do the adult thing and either ignore them or leave. Or Hell, tell them they're being hurtful.

    I call them out on it, yeah. Is this a discussion now? I don't even know how this started. What the guy in the car was saying was a million times worse than someone just calling someone an idiot for disagreeing, for the record.

    You didn't call them out, you attacked them. You could have just told them to fuck off and ignored them but you couldn't live up to the apparently too difficult standard of not caring.

    Quid on
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Oh wait silly me answering a question to the op's post, should have figured it would have derailed into some sort of sexism debate
    wha?

    Lucid on
  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Variable wrote: »
    jail didn't scare your dad but you punching him did?

    Jail doesn't scare a lot of people, as they aren't thinking that far ahead or don't see themselves as in the wrong. Sometimes a punch in the face (espcially from someone unexpected) can get someone to better consider the consequences of their actions. Of course, sometimes that particular method can backfire into more violence, so...

    I'll agree jail doesn't scare a lot of people, but I doubt those people are scared of being punched in the face.

    just not seeing it. I admit I can't prove what I'm saying at all.

    Variable on
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  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    isn't there a phenomenon in japan with 'carnivorous' women who have to actively persue men because the men don't have any motivation to start relationships?

    Jars on
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    That likely speaks to other cultural implications involving Japanese ideas involving gender roles.

    Lucid on
  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Usually a question about the manliness of today's males is preceded or followed by grumbling at kids to get off one's lawn.

    The whole idea of "manliness" is just a load of crap, anyways.

    If a boy played around in the kitchen and became a great cook, does that make him less of a man than one who spends his time watching sports and working out? Not really.

    Besides, the whole concept is just plain outdated, like gender roles. Men and women shouldn't have to worry about living up to some mythical standard that has been set in stone, they should live thier lives and just be themselves. This whole "guys must be strong and tough and never show emotion" stuff just needs to go away.

    JaysonFour on
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  • Hank_ScorpioHank_Scorpio Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Quid wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    What? There is a huge difference between disagreement and calling someone dumb or an idiot for disagreeing with you. The latter is a personal attack and not something I'm cool with.

    Then do the adult thing and either ignore them or leave. Or Hell, tell them they're being hurtful.

    I call them out on it, yeah. Is this a discussion now? I don't even know how this started. What the guy in the car was saying was a million times worse than someone just calling someone an idiot for disagreeing, for the record.

    You didn't call them out, you attacked them. You could have just told them to fuck off and ignored them but you couldn't live up to the apparently too difficult standard of not caring.

    I didn't attack them, what? I attacked the guy in the car who was talking shit about me endlessly, not disagreeing with an opinion and only calling me an idiot.

    And cut the fucking condescension. Yeah, I care about what people say, get over it.

    Hank_Scorpio on
  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I don't think anyone is being particularly condescending hank, just disagreeing with you

    Variable on
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  • AgahnimAgahnim Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Variable wrote: »
    I don't think anyone is being particularly condescending hank, just disagreeing with you

    You...may want to re-check the thread. There is plenty of condescension going on.

    Agahnim on
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  • MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I don't think that once you've posted this:
    I had a friend who graduated from Berkeley. We were both driving home from a concert one night when he brought up something that happened 3 years ago where a friend of ours was calling me a piece of shit, idiot, basically verbally abusing me for no reason. I punched this friend in the face, didn't knock him out but he got the message. So the friend in the car who brought it up was saying that you can never, ever hit someone for verbal abuse ever. He believes that physical violence is always worse than verbal abuse, no matter how little the physicality is or how strong the verbal abuse is. I disagreed with this so vehemently that we haven't spoken since. I would say that this guy in particular has no manliness about him. Not just from that statement, but a lot of other things that stem from opinions like this.

    The fact that he's extremely liberal doesn't have anything to do with it. He's just a pussy.

    You get to complain about people calling you 'dumb.' You just called people who don't believe in violence a bunch of pussies. Now you're bitching that they're acting condescending to you? Please.

    MrMister on
  • HambrabaiHambrabai Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Agahnim wrote: »
    Variable wrote: »
    I don't think anyone is being particularly condescending hank, just disagreeing with you

    You...may want to re-check the thread. There is plenty of condescension going on.

    Or the folks approaching the situation as if they'd act like a magical Ghandi in any aggravating situation no matter what and therefore feel free to condemn anyone who acted differently..

    Hambrabai on
  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    so now you have to be ghandi to not hit a guy with a big mouth

    Variable on
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  • Hank_ScorpioHank_Scorpio Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    MrMister wrote: »
    I don't think that once you've posted this:
    I had a friend who graduated from Berkeley. We were both driving home from a concert one night when he brought up something that happened 3 years ago where a friend of ours was calling me a piece of shit, idiot, basically verbally abusing me for no reason. I punched this friend in the face, didn't knock him out but he got the message. So the friend in the car who brought it up was saying that you can never, ever hit someone for verbal abuse ever. He believes that physical violence is always worse than verbal abuse, no matter how little the physicality is or how strong the verbal abuse is. I disagreed with this so vehemently that we haven't spoken since. I would say that this guy in particular has no manliness about him. Not just from that statement, but a lot of other things that stem from opinions like this.

    The fact that he's extremely liberal doesn't have anything to do with it. He's just a pussy.

    You get to complain about people calling you 'dumb.' You just called people who don't believe in violence a bunch of pussies. Now you're bitching that they're acting condescending to you? Please.

    I called the guy a pussy, for more reasons outside of what I mentioned. People who don't believe in violence aren't necessarily pussies, I just disagree with them.

    Hank_Scorpio on
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Apparently it takes a gargantuan effort to refrain from physical violence in day to day life and the social aspects that come with it.

    Lucid on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    And people who disagree with you are condescending.

    Quid on
  • ElkiElki get busy Moderator, ClubPA Mod Emeritus
    edited June 2011
    Hitting people is a stupid thing to do (US Edition):

    You don't like what this guy is doing. You asked him how he makes his PB&J, and he said with honey, which is neither PB or J, and needs straightening out.
    You hit him, and the tree of options branches!

    Possibility 1A: As your fist hits his face, he gains understanding. He now knows that words have meaning, and that he should call his PB & honey sandwich what it isn't, like some asshole. He understands this and you have gained an understanding, because you punched him in the face. This is great. Mission accomplished.

    Possiblity 1B: He is afraid of you, doesn't like to fight, etc, and doesn't hit you back, and...
    • Does nothing (you're in the clear!)
    • Decides to to press charges against, which isn't all that hard to do. Now you could have a record (HI5!).

    Possibility 2: He does not like that you punched him in the face, and he is going to punch you back in your face, because you punched him in his face. Now you're in a fight (woooo!). I know, I know, you're a super badass and all, but let's make this fair and just assume you have a 50% of coming out on top (but we both know you're way too badass to lose).
    • That guy kicks your ass (your ass has now been kicked)
    • You kick that guy's ass! You have now possibly committed a felony. Good job! And because being a winner of a flight is always relative you probably got some cuts, bruises, and torn clothing. And now you have to wait to see if the police come to pick you up at some point. If they don't pick you up at the scene, they could always do it later at your house! (It's just like a taxi service)

    Possibility 3: You're getting jumped later, possibly with with PB&Honey's friends. Go back to 2 and start over!

    Or you could not hit people.

    I'm leaving out plenty of scenarios and options I'm sure, but the story will always involve much acrimony, sore bodies, and the police.

    Elki on
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  • AgahnimAgahnim Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I think that might be simplifying things a bit.

    Agahnim on
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  • Hank_ScorpioHank_Scorpio Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Quid wrote: »
    And people who disagree with you are condescending.

    "You could have just told them to fuck off and ignored them but you couldn't live up to the apparently too difficult standard of not caring."

    Aside from you using some kind of example which didn't even exist, you said I can't live up to an easy standard. Cut the BS.

    Hank_Scorpio on
This discussion has been closed.