I really do wonder where all the myths about the Greek retirement system come from. Best I can tell, the general age of retirement is 65. The problem is that there are many exceptions (mostly for hazardous professions, though you can endlessly debate that), which brings the average retirement age to 61. Many of those exceptions have been cut already, raising the expected average to 63.
I want to note that the average age of retirement in the Netherlands is currently... 61.5 years. (Again, base of 65). I'm sure many other countries have similar schemes.
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Mojo_JojoWe are only now beginning to understand the full power and ramifications of sexual intercourseRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
Everybody makes out that the rest of Europe retires earlier. It's just one of the strange games we play.
Mojo_Jojo on
Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
Interestingly, I planned a trip to europe for august recently. The prices for lodging and tourist stuff in Greece is still really high even though their economy sucks. I expected some decline in prices, but I guess tourists are really uneffected by the Greek economy. However, it seems that if the current state of Greece's economy declines wokers in the tourism industry won't be that hurt. Transportation costs are still really high as well. Maybe just becuse the demands is so high in August? Which is wierd because the civil unrest doesn't make it the most attactive place to travel.
Basically Greece is fucked.
There are ~11 million Greeks
Only 5 million Greeks are in the labor force, thanks in part to the early retirement age.
Of that 5 million 20% are unemployed.
Of the remaining 4 million, 40% are public sector employees.
So you are down to 2.4 million people. Who need to generate enough wealth to give living expenses and full healthcare(plus schools/social services ect) to 11 million people.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
Interestingly, I planned a trip to europe for august recently. The prices for lodging and tourist stuff in Greece is still really high even though their economy sucks. I expected some decline in prices, but I guess tourists are really uneffected by the Greek economy. However, it seems that if the current state of Greece's economy declines wokers in the tourism industry won't be that hurt. Transportation costs are still really high as well. Maybe just becuse the demands is so high in August? Which is wierd because the civil unrest doesn't make it the most attactive place to travel.
This is true. I went to Athens and Santorini for my honeymoon in April and it was great. You would never know that the country was in bad shape except by talking to people there. The tourism industry is off too but not as hard hit as other industries. I will say this about Santorini, it's still effing expensive and the exchange rate is absolutely brutal. A strong Euro definitely is not helping some countries in the EU.
Interestingly, I planned a trip to europe for august recently. The prices for lodging and tourist stuff in Greece is still really high even though their economy sucks. I expected some decline in prices, but I guess tourists are really uneffected by the Greek economy. However, it seems that if the current state of Greece's economy declines wokers in the tourism industry won't be that hurt. Transportation costs are still really high as well. Maybe just becuse the demands is so high in August? Which is wierd because the civil unrest doesn't make it the most attactive place to travel.
Even if Greece goes back to the stone age, it won't change the sun and the sea and the awesome weather.
Interestingly, I planned a trip to europe for august recently. The prices for lodging and tourist stuff in Greece is still really high even though their economy sucks. I expected some decline in prices, but I guess tourists are really uneffected by the Greek economy. However, it seems that if the current state of Greece's economy declines wokers in the tourism industry won't be that hurt. Transportation costs are still really high as well. Maybe just becuse the demands is so high in August? Which is wierd because the civil unrest doesn't make it the most attactive place to travel.
This is true. I went to Athens and Santorini for my honeymoon in April and it was great. You would never know that the country was in bad shape except by talking to people there. The tourism industry is off too but not as hard hit as other industries. I will say this about Santorini, it's still effing expensive and the exchange rate is absolutely brutal. A strong Euro definitely is not helping some countries in the EU.
Don't worry about a strong Euro for much longer; if they don't solve this problem the Euro won't be worth the paper it is printed on!
Bringing up the Weimar Republic is like Godwin'ing with economics.
Jephery on
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"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
The thing is, a little inflation, hell, even a lot of inflation would be good in a case where there is extreme debt loads. But inflation is like riding a tiger.
The thing is, a little inflation, hell, even a lot of inflation would be good in a case where there is extreme debt loads. But inflation is like riding a tiger.
Because it is really cool?
Or because you have to be a Night-Elf, and it costs you $10 a month until you break the addiction.
Interesting take on inflation. I can sort of buy into it in theory, I just don't know if the debt is a big enough component of the stalled recovery that inflating it away will work with no hiring going on.
The confidence motion is due to take place this evening, Papandreou's party has 155 of 300 seats in Parliament and will also be supported by 2 MPs who resigned from PASOK last week.
However winning the confidence vote and getting the reform package through are two different things. The Opposition want the package broken down into its various components and to have a yes/no vote on each part but the Government and its creditors want it passed as a full deal.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
edited June 2011
We only have 2 hours left in the trading day, will the vote of confidence take place before then?
Alfred J. Kwakis it because you were insultedwhen I insulted your hair?Registered Userregular
edited June 2011
What really confuses me is that the people down there are demonstrating against ... what exactly? Necessary government cuts? That other countries are pumping millions into Greece?
Belief that the cuts are unnecessary, belief that the cuts should happen to someone else, belief that the millions come with too many or the wrong strings attached.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
Belief that the cuts are unnecessary, belief that the cuts should happen to someone else, belief that the millions come with too many or the wrong strings attached.
I really feel that someone should have looked at the Eurovision song contest before suggesting that the EU be formed. The amount of nationalistic scapegoating and nationalistic zeal is amazing.
Belief that the cuts are unnecessary, belief that the cuts should happen to someone else, belief that the millions come with too many or the wrong strings attached.
That really. Indeed I'd go as far as to say that this is the reason why communism hasn't occurred yet. The cuts are harsh, but they haven't hit those who are protesting really hard yet.
Belief that the cuts are unnecessary, belief that the cuts should happen to someone else, belief that the millions come with too many or the wrong strings attached.
Also, the Greeks love protesting shit. That love should not be underestimated.
Fine, then don't accept the money, and don't make the cuts. You're lives will be so much better once your economy craters, and no one will lend you/your country any money for a couple decades.
Belief that the cuts are unnecessary, belief that the cuts should happen to someone else, belief that the millions come with too many or the wrong strings attached.
Actually according to a Greek reporter on Irish radio this morning, it's because a lot of people don't believe that the country actually owes €350bn.
I suppose Greeks can justifiably point out a history of state accounting shenanigans...
Well you have to remember that until Papandreou told the world how his predecessors had been cooking the books for years, everyone just thought that Greece was just another struggling economy that was taking the GFC particularly badly.
So yeah, they probably do think the state is lying to them.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
In any case, what you have to ask now is what Europe is waiting for. Why will six months more of credit lines and suffering make the situation any better?
Because it gives a shot of trying to deal(it will fail, most likely) with the political situation within the EU which will be complicated and sensitive enough to deserve any additional time it may get. When Greece defaults you'll see a temporary surge in jingoism pretty much all across Europe.
I suppose Greeks can justifiably point out a history of state accounting shenanigans...
I think it's because Greeks haven't really perceived anything worth even a fraction of 350 bil in their country.
That's because €350 is 150% of what their country produces in a year. On a per-capita basis its not that different from the US's dept load. ~€32k vs $45k. Although a lot of US's public debt is owned by Social Secuirty/Medicare.
In any case, what you have to ask now is what Europe is waiting for. Why will six months more of credit lines and suffering make the situation any better?
Because it gives a shot of trying to deal(it will fail, most likely) with the political situation within the EU which will be complicated and sensitive enough to deserve any additional time it may get. When Greece defaults you'll see a temporary surge in jingoism pretty much all across Europe.
I'm unclear what the EU is bound to do for (or not do to) its member states; Is ejecting Greece, as a result of that turmoil, a viable strategy to mitigate the financial impact of their default?
I can't think of anything else EU grumbling could really do; as I am under the impression that it is a relatively toothless organization.
[e] Disclaimer:
Everything I know about the EU
Basically an international friars club, led by Roast Master Nigel Farrage, where the representatives of member states make sick burns on each other all day.
How much did hosting the Olympics in 2004 contribute to Greece's problems? I remember hearing they were having financial trouble getting things together even back then.
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I want to note that the average age of retirement in the Netherlands is currently... 61.5 years. (Again, base of 65). I'm sure many other countries have similar schemes.
The Argentinan crisis lasted for almost a decade. I'm not even sure Argentina's GDP now is greater than it was in 2000.
There are ~11 million Greeks
Only 5 million Greeks are in the labor force, thanks in part to the early retirement age.
Of that 5 million 20% are unemployed.
Of the remaining 4 million, 40% are public sector employees.
So you are down to 2.4 million people. Who need to generate enough wealth to give living expenses and full healthcare(plus schools/social services ect) to 11 million people.
This is true. I went to Athens and Santorini for my honeymoon in April and it was great. You would never know that the country was in bad shape except by talking to people there. The tourism industry is off too but not as hard hit as other industries. I will say this about Santorini, it's still effing expensive and the exchange rate is absolutely brutal. A strong Euro definitely is not helping some countries in the EU.
Even if Greece goes back to the stone age, it won't change the sun and the sea and the awesome weather.
Don't worry about a strong Euro for much longer; if they don't solve this problem the Euro won't be worth the paper it is printed on!
:x
Did I just do a faux pas? Sorry.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
*Netiquette level up*
You broke the threads economic value.
We'll have to default now.
Because it is really cool?
Or because you have to be a Night-Elf, and it costs you $10 a month until you break the addiction.
It's been ruined by the people who do, with a straight face, bring up the Weimar inflation with every opportunity.
YOU HAVE ANGERED THE ECONODOG.
I do with people would stop using the "Euro-" prefix for their headlines though.
THIS.
"Inflation is up 0,5% over the forecast level... IN SIX MONTHS WE'LL USE OUR MONEY AS FIREWOOD"
From the comments section:
Really sums it up nicely. Greece needs to bite the bullet.
Interesting take on inflation. I can sort of buy into it in theory, I just don't know if the debt is a big enough component of the stalled recovery that inflating it away will work with no hiring going on.
However winning the confidence vote and getting the reform package through are two different things. The Opposition want the package broken down into its various components and to have a yes/no vote on each part but the Government and its creditors want it passed as a full deal.
Edit:
No. No it wont.
I really feel that someone should have looked at the Eurovision song contest before suggesting that the EU be formed. The amount of nationalistic scapegoating and nationalistic zeal is amazing.
That really. Indeed I'd go as far as to say that this is the reason why communism hasn't occurred yet. The cuts are harsh, but they haven't hit those who are protesting really hard yet.
Also, the Greeks love protesting shit. That love should not be underestimated.
Actually according to a Greek reporter on Irish radio this morning, it's because a lot of people don't believe that the country actually owes €350bn.
I suppose Greeks can justifiably point out a history of state accounting shenanigans...
Well you have to remember that until Papandreou told the world how his predecessors had been cooking the books for years, everyone just thought that Greece was just another struggling economy that was taking the GFC particularly badly.
So yeah, they probably do think the state is lying to them.
I think it's because Greeks haven't really perceived anything worth even a fraction of 350 bil in their country.
Because it gives a shot of trying to deal(it will fail, most likely) with the political situation within the EU which will be complicated and sensitive enough to deserve any additional time it may get.
When Greece defaults you'll see a temporary surge in jingoism pretty much all across Europe.
That's because €350 is 150% of what their country produces in a year. On a per-capita basis its not that different from the US's dept load. ~€32k vs $45k. Although a lot of US's public debt is owned by Social Secuirty/Medicare.
You've lost me. It is a de facto transfer union right now.
I'm unclear what the EU is bound to do for (or not do to) its member states; Is ejecting Greece, as a result of that turmoil, a viable strategy to mitigate the financial impact of their default?
I can't think of anything else EU grumbling could really do; as I am under the impression that it is a relatively toothless organization.
[e] Disclaimer:
Everything I know about the EU