Prey is to Predator as Woman is to (blank): The answer is Man

Skoal Cat

I was reading some science blogs today and stumbled upon an interesting gender discussion. Without The Cat around, I'm not sure who is going to keep this thread going, but I wanted to try anyway.

It all starts with this video. Rebecca, a writer from Skepchick.com, was in a panel at an Athiest conference in Dublin and was later that night hit on in an elevator by a guy who then asked her to his room to discuss things further.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKHwduG1Frk&feature=player_embedded
Skip to 4:30 for relevant part

This guy wrote an article about it
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/always_name_names.php#comment-4295492

There is an odd attitude in our culture that it's acceptable for men to proposition women in curious ways — Rebecca Watson recently experienced this in an elevator in Dublin, and I think this encounter Ophelia Benson had reflects the same attitude: women are lower status persons, and we men, as superior beings, get to ask things of them. Also as liberal, enlightened people, of course, we will graciously accede to their desires, and if they ask us to stop hassling them, we will back off, politely. Isn't that nice of us?

It's not enough. Maybe we should also recognize that applying unwanted pressure, no matter how politely phrased, is inappropriate behavior. Maybe we should recognize that when we interact with equals there are different, expected patterns of behavior that many men casually disregard when meeting with women, and it is those subtle signs that let them know what you think of them that really righteously pisses feminist women off.

But I don't want to talk about that. I want to mention one thing that annoys me. Rebecca Watson talked about this experience at a CFI conference, and one thing she did was to directly address, by name, criticisms of her reaction to being importuned in an elevator late at night. She specifically discussed a criticism by one of the attendees, Stef McGraw, quoting her and saying where the argument was found, and a few people were angry at her for that, and demanded that she apologize to McGraw. Which is, frankly, bizarre.

He then continues on a path that, in my opinion, diverges from what this thread is about. Click the link for the full text if interested.

Here is where shit gets weird. Richard Dawkins, yes that Richard Dawkins, posted a response. Weirder than that too? Dawkins was on the same panel as the woman in the video above.

Dear Muslima

Stop whining, will you. Yes, yes, I know you had your genitals mutilated with a razor blade, and . . . yawn . . . don't tell me yet again, I know you aren't allowed to drive a car, and you can't leave the house without a male relative, and your husband is allowed to beat you, and you'll be stoned to death if you commit adultery. But stop whining, will you. Think of the suffering your poor American sisters have to put up with.

Only this week I heard of one, she calls herself Skep"chick", and do you know what happened to her? A man in a hotel elevator invited her back to his room for coffee. I am not exaggerating. He really did. He invited her back to his room for coffee. Of course she said no, and of course he didn't lay a finger on her, but even so . . .

And you, Muslima, think you have misogyny to complain about! For goodness sake grow up, or at least grow a thicker skin.

Richard

Note: Muslima is not a real person Dawkins is talking to, but rather a somewhat racist persona.

Needless to say, the Internet community of skeptic feminists is freaking the fuck out, and not for the racist over tones. It seems men casually flirting with women is fucking evil and, this may be the man inside of me talking, but I don't get it. Here is another article of another woman who rages over a man who flirts with her in what seems to be a retarded albeit harmless way.

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2011/good-neighbors/

I just had a very weird experience, or maybe not all that weird in one way, but pretty damn weird in any other way. Not weird given that some people are bat-loony, but weird given that some people ought to know better. (Is it possible for people who are bat-loony to know better? Is that a ridiculous incoherent idea, on a level with belief in free will? Probably no and probably yes…but then the question becomes “exactly how bat-loony are we talking about here?”)

I was walking along a residential street a few blocks from where I live (so I don’t know anyone there, I don’t recognize faces), mind elsewhere (though nowhere in particular) as usual, and suddenly some grizzled auld fella who was pottering in his garden snarled* at me as he crossed the sidewalk toward the parking strip, “What would it take to make you smile?”

I jerked to a stop and turned to stare at him in astonishment, and after mulling it for a few seconds demanded why on earth he would ask me that.

We had a nice little shouty war there on the sidewalk, for three or four or five minutes.

He was of course surprised to be answered, and did a lot of angry shouting about seeing me walking past here all the time, and I never smile, I never wave, I never say hello. I did a lot of return shouting about being allowed to walk here, and not having even been aware of him until he challenged me, and why would he expect me to be smiling as I walked up the street. He did more angry shouting about there are two sides to the street, and oh fuck off, and I never say hello. I did more repeat shouting about why would he expect me to be smiling as I walked up the street and why would he think he gets to tell me how to arrange my face. He started telling me to go away, and I kept pointing out that he had challenged me. He did more angry shouting about always seeing me walking past, and he’s sick of seeing my horrible face “like this” and he did an exaggerated sad-clown face with the mouth dragged down like Emmett Kelly. Gee I love it when people do that. He wasn’t the first. I told him that’s how my face is. He tripped up then and apologized, but quickly thought better of it and went back to angry shouting.

Here’s the thing: I’m extremely ugly, especially now that I’m 153 years old. I do have one of those downturned mouths that some people have, so I do look very grumpy when my face is in neutral position. I’ve had acquaintances helpfully point this out to me, in case I wasn’t aware of it – “Gee, you’re a lot less ugly when you smile.” Oh thanks.

So yes, I’m ugly and I look grumpy when I walk down the street. But I have this core idea that I’m allowed to do that, and that people who live along that street ought not to come running out to tell me I’m uglying up their street. I also have a core idea that I don’t have an obligation to try to look less ugly for any random gardening men who might be pottering about when I pass.

I eventually got around to asking my antagonist about this – “Do you say that to men who walk by? Do you tell men to smile as they walk past your house?” He swelled up with more outrage, and started telling me he’d been in combat, I wasn’t a woman, get away from here with my lesbian bullshit, he wasn’t afraid of any men, he was afraid of women if they really were women. After lots of shouting back and forth along these lines, he slipped up again and said “But it’s none of my business.” “Exactly!” I said. “Bye!” That was my exit line, but he shouted after me “Have a wonderful day” so I shouted back “You too” so he shouted back “That’s the first nice thing you’ve said this whole time” and I shouted back “Gee I wonder why!” and after that all I heard was muttering, so I won.

I did you know. He thought he was just going to throw a little male weight around, with no repercussions. He wasn’t expecting a Spanish Inquisition I mean an aggressive ugly ol’ broad shouting at him for five minutes.

Now here’s what I want to know. Lots of guys here. What do you think? I don’t believe for one second that he ever, ever, ever says that to men. Ever. I don’t think for a second that he thinks it’s any of his business what expression a man has on his face when walking past his house. What do you think? Would a (straight) man ever say that to a man? And has any man ever said anything like that to you?

*Update: note that he snarled. This was not a friendly or flirtatious or neighborly overture; it was angry and hostile in the opening question, and it got much more so when I replied. When I asked him why he would ask me such a question, he approached me aggressively, demanding “do you know how to smile?” There was no ambiguity about this; it was not borderline; the guy was pissed off, and nasty, and in my face. He also got very rude, very quickly, while I limited myself to insisting that he had no business telling me how to look.

And finally, here is Skepchick.com's resposne to the whole ordeal including user submitted responses to Dawkins.
http://skepchick.org/2011/07/dear-richard-dawkins/

We here at Skepchick – and basically all of you – have been outraged and saddened by the recent comments made by Richard Dawkins on PZ Myers’ blog Pharyngula. If you’re just coming in on this, I won’t get into the details, as you can read them elsewhere, and you can read the offending comments here. Suffice it to say that I, along with many of you, are disappointed that a man of such stature in the community has chosen to belittle the experiences of women. But I’ve also been heartened that so many of you recognize how wrong Dawkins is (just read the comments on Rebecca’s most recent post on the subject if you don’t believe me.) In that post, Rebecca asked you to write letters to Richard Dawkins the explain your disappointment, anger, confusion and disapproval. Some of those letters are published after the jump. And please post your own letters to Richard Dawkins in the comments. **Edit: We will be adding letters as we go, so stay tuned for updates!

I suggest clicking the link to read the responses people have had.

So long OP short and I'm probably running the risk of being a misogynist, but I'm having a hard time seeing past women complaining that men are talking to them in a way that makes them think that the man wants to have sex with them. I'm having a seriously hard time understanding what, if anything, is actually wrong here.

South host

I don't think they're upset that men are talking to them, I think they're upset about when and how it happens. Like in an elevator late at night, I would be weirded out if another guy asked me to come hang out in his room, regardless of what I thought his intentions were. And I have a feeling that a lot of girls have just gotten tired of guys that they have never spoken to constantly asking them out in settings where they are not looking for such attention, like just walking down the street, or at work.

apricotmuffins

South host wrote: »

I don't think they're upset that men are talking to them, I think they're upset about when and how it happens. Like in an elevator late at night, I would be weirded out if another guy asked me to come hang out in his room, regardless of what I thought his intentions were. And I have a feeling that a lot of girls have just gotten tired of guys that they have never spoken to constantly asking them out in settings where they are not looking for such attention, like just walking down the street, or at work.

way to foster debate, all i can say is OH MY GOD YOU GET IT

Skoal Cat

South host wrote: »

I don't think they're upset that men are talking to them, I think they're upset about when and how it happens. Like in an elevator late at night, I would be weirded out if another guy asked me to come hang out in his room, regardless of what I thought his intentions were. And I have a feeling that a lot of girls have just gotten tired of guys that they have never spoken to constantly asking them out in settings where they are not looking for such attention, like just walking down the street, or at work.

In neither specific situation above was a woman asked out on a date. Also, what you're saying implies that the only time to speak to a woman/person that you have any interest in knowing is only in social settings where communication is part of the scenario. But this wouldn't apply to meeting someone on the job probably either, or several other situations where one might normally meet someone in the world.
Where are the appropriate places to meet new people?

durandal4532

Skoal Cat wrote: »

South host wrote: »

I don't think they're upset that men are talking to them, I think they're upset about when and how it happens. Like in an elevator late at night, I would be weirded out if another guy asked me to come hang out in his room, regardless of what I thought his intentions were. And I have a feeling that a lot of girls have just gotten tired of guys that they have never spoken to constantly asking them out in settings where they are not looking for such attention, like just walking down the street, or at work.

In neither specific situation above was a woman asked out on a date. Also, what you're saying implies that the only time to speak to a woman/person that you have any interest in knowing is only in social settings where communication is part of the scenario. But this wouldn't apply to meeting someone on the job probably either, or several other situations where one might normally meet someone in the world.
Where are the appropriate places to meet new people?

That really depends on where people are comfortable being propositioned.

zerg rush

Not commenting on the rest, but this quote feels bizarre to me.

There is an odd attitude in our culture that it's acceptable for men to proposition women in curious ways — Rebecca Watson recently experienced this in an elevator in Dublin, and I think this encounter Ophelia Benson had reflects the same attitude: women are lower status persons, and we men, as superior beings, get to ask things of them. Also as liberal, enlightened people, of course, we will graciously accede to their desires, and if they ask us to stop hassling them, we will back off, politely. Isn't that nice of us?

I mean, women can proposition men too. I've very rarely had it happen, but every time it was pretty awesome even when nothing came of it. I'd love for it to happen more often.

Also, isn't it typical that the lower status people request things of the higher status people, who then get to choose what course of action will follow? Saying that the askers are higher status seems... absolutely backward.

Skoal Cat

Good catch, his understanding of status is way off (by about 180 degrees). It actually makes him sound quite misogynistic the way he's put it.

durandal4532 wrote: »

Skoal Cat wrote: »

South host wrote: »

I don't think they're upset that men are talking to them, I think they're upset about when and how it happens. Like in an elevator late at night, I would be weirded out if another guy asked me to come hang out in his room, regardless of what I thought his intentions were. And I have a feeling that a lot of girls have just gotten tired of guys that they have never spoken to constantly asking them out in settings where they are not looking for such attention, like just walking down the street, or at work.

In neither specific situation above was a woman asked out on a date. Also, what you're saying implies that the only time to speak to a woman/person that you have any interest in knowing is only in social settings where communication is part of the scenario. But this wouldn't apply to meeting someone on the job probably either, or several other situations where one might normally meet someone in the world.
Where are the appropriate places to meet new people?

That really depends on where people are comfortable being propositioned.

Talking to != Flirting != Being propositioned

Also, at some point, I'm going to have to proposition someone somehow. I'd rather not do it in an offensive misogynistic way.

autono-wally, erotibot300

A basic problem is that human relations are often treated so overly complicated
If I ask someone out and that person doesn't want to, then so be it. It's not like I expect something for being the glorious male stereotype. But some people seem to

Qliphoth

It will end (or at least moderate) when women start propositioning men that they're interested in. If instead of asking out women who I thought were interested in me, I had waited for them to ask me out I would most likely still be a virgin and unfortunately you can't get it right all of the time. A lot of men have a choice between specifically expressing interest in a woman or never getting laid. What this results in is men that develop thick skins from a lot of rejections and just see propositioning women in what seems like an innappropriate time as a case of 'I've got nothing to lose'. Which is correct, they don't, worst case scenario is that some woman you're never going to see again thinks you're a bit of a creep.

In regards to Dawkins belittling response, his premise is wrong. You can both be outraged about women's rights in repressive muslim countries and also be mildly annoyed by comparatively insignificant moments of implied misogny.

Unknown

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Deebaser

Wow, one of the youtube comments is oddly spot on:

Some Poor Dude: "Hey, don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting and I wanted to know if you'd be interested in joining me for coffee at my apartment."

Rebecca Watson's mind: "RAPE WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE OBJECTIFICATION SEXUALIZATION MISOGYNY RAPE WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE OBJECTIFICATION SEXUALIZATION MISOGYNY RAPE WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE OBJECTIFICATION SEXUALIZATION MISOGYNY"

Some Poor Dude: "Oh, um, OK..." *backs away slowly*

Styrofoam Sammich

Deebaser wrote: »

Wow, one of the youtube comments is oddly spot on:

Some Poor Dude: "Hey, don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting and I wanted to know if you'd be interested in joining me for coffee at my apartment."

Rebecca Watson's mind: "RAPE WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE OBJECTIFICATION SEXUALIZATION MISOGYNY RAPE WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE OBJECTIFICATION SEXUALIZATION MISOGYNY RAPE WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE OBJECTIFICATION SEXUALIZATION MISOGYNY"

Some Poor Dude: "Oh, um, OK..." *backs away slowly*

This is pretty much my read on the thing.

Nuzak

zerg rush wrote: »

Not commenting on the rest, but this quote feels bizarre to me.

There is an odd attitude in our culture that it's acceptable for men to proposition women in curious ways — Rebecca Watson recently experienced this in an elevator in Dublin, and I think this encounter Ophelia Benson had reflects the same attitude: women are lower status persons, and we men, as superior beings, get to ask things of them. Also as liberal, enlightened people, of course, we will graciously accede to their desires, and if they ask us to stop hassling them, we will back off, politely. Isn't that nice of us?

I mean, women can proposition men too. I've very rarely had it happen, but every time it was pretty awesome even when nothing came of it. I'd love for it to happen more often.

Also, isn't it typical that the lower status people request things of the higher status people, who then get to choose what course of action will follow? Saying that the askers are higher status seems... absolutely backward.

it's a bit awkward phrasing, but i guess she means that men, having higher status, get to do the things like proposition women. or it's more ok for them to do that. something along those lines.

i sort of skimmed over the article with the woman talking about the gardener talking about her smile, and i kinda saw that as him passing the time of day, idle inane chatter, but i'm not sure.

apricotmuffins

personally,

I don't mind being propositioned as long as its 1. courteous and respectful and 2. not done in a place where I feel unable to escape should i need to. If I turn someone down I most likely want to be left alone by that person immediately.

being in a lift, alone with a man I don't know who has just expressed an interest in me sexually, no matter how courteous he was, is downright uncomfortable and a little bit frightening, for the mere fact that I am in a vulnerable position with a person i do not know, who has expressed interest in me that i do not reciprocate.


Why is this so hard to understand?

Nuzak

Styrofoam Sammich wrote: »

Deebaser wrote: »

Wow, one of the youtube comments is oddly spot on:

Some Poor Dude: "Hey, don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting and I wanted to know if you'd be interested in joining me for coffee at my apartment."

Rebecca Watson's mind: "RAPE WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE OBJECTIFICATION SEXUALIZATION MISOGYNY RAPE WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE OBJECTIFICATION SEXUALIZATION MISOGYNY RAPE WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE OBJECTIFICATION SEXUALIZATION MISOGYNY"

Some Poor Dude: "Oh, um, OK..." *backs away slowly*

This is pretty much my read on the thing.

read it again, then, you've simplified the whole thing. a bit.

Skoal Cat

apricotmuffins wrote: »

personally,

I don't mind being propositioned as long as its 1. courteous and respectful and 2. not done in a place where I feel unable to escape should i need to. If I turn someone down I most likely want to be left alone by that person immediately.

being in a lift, alone with a man I don't know who has just expressed an interest in me sexually, no matter how courteous he was, is downright uncomfortable and a little bit frightening, for the mere fact that I am in a vulnerable position with a person i do not know, who has expressed interest in me that i do not reciprocate.


Why is this so hard to understand?

We only have the limited details Rebecca gave us, but asking someone to your room (when there is no other place to go) to talk about stuff he presumably saw you talk about at the panel you were on is not "hey lets fuck".

AngelHedgie

zerg rush wrote: »

Not commenting on the rest, but this quote feels bizarre to me.

There is an odd attitude in our culture that it's acceptable for men to proposition women in curious ways — Rebecca Watson recently experienced this in an elevator in Dublin, and I think this encounter Ophelia Benson had reflects the same attitude: women are lower status persons, and we men, as superior beings, get to ask things of them. Also as liberal, enlightened people, of course, we will graciously accede to their desires, and if they ask us to stop hassling them, we will back off, politely. Isn't that nice of us?

I mean, women can proposition men too. I've very rarely had it happen, but every time it was pretty awesome even when nothing came of it. I'd love for it to happen more often.

Also, isn't it typical that the lower status people request things of the higher status people, who then get to choose what course of action will follow? Saying that the askers are higher status seems... absolutely backward.

People of lower status can petition, not proposition. Hence why it's rare for women to do so, and when they do, it's usually to males who are naturally of lower social status (i.e. "cougars").

Casually Hardcore

Eh, all of this is just making things too fucking complicated.

Which is a pet peeve of mine.

For example:

A lot of time when I open a door and let someone it. 8 times out of 10 (making that statistic up), whenever I do that for a woman I get mistaken that I'm trying to flirt with them. But, the simple fact is, sometime it's much more efficient to move people's asses through the doorway without me having the juggle with opening the door and squeeze between said door and people.


I don't really get it.

Unknown

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AngelHedgie

Skoal Cat wrote: »

apricotmuffins wrote: »

personally,

I don't mind being propositioned as long as its 1. courteous and respectful and 2. not done in a place where I feel unable to escape should i need to. If I turn someone down I most likely want to be left alone by that person immediately.

being in a lift, alone with a man I don't know who has just expressed an interest in me sexually, no matter how courteous he was, is downright uncomfortable and a little bit frightening, for the mere fact that I am in a vulnerable position with a person i do not know, who has expressed interest in me that i do not reciprocate.


Why is this so hard to understand?

We only have the limited details Rebecca gave us, but asking someone to your room (when there is no other place to go) to talk about stuff he presumably saw you talk about at the panel you were on is not "hey lets fuck".

Really? It's a geeky way of asking if she wants to see his etchings.

I take it you forgot about that one really fucking offensive "blogging" Twix ad.

autono-wally, erotibot300

apricotmuffins wrote: »

personally,

I don't mind being propositioned as long as its 1. courteous and respectful and 2. not done in a place where I feel unable to escape should i need to. If I turn someone down I most likely want to be left alone by that person immediately.

being in a lift, alone with a man I don't know who has just expressed an interest in me sexually, no matter how courteous he was, is downright uncomfortable and a little bit frightening, for the mere fact that I am in a vulnerable position with a person i do not know, who has expressed interest in me that i do not reciprocate.


Why is this so hard to understand?

Well, being sexually interested does not mean the person is meaning anything bad or forceful.
Of course some people do, but that's often an underlying problem of gender unequality going back to the earliest of childhood memories.
But teaching little kids without gender bias is pretty hard to do.

Linespider5

I don't know. I mean, I'm not saying anyone should be ready and flattered, at absolutely any time, to be invited by another into more potentially intimate settings that may or may not involve sexual overtures. I don't really understand what the point of this discussion is. There is a significant precedence for a noticeable percentage of women preferring, even enjoying, seeing what men will choose to do in situations that also involve them. Men, by their very nature, are also self-destructive beings. There is also a culturally indoctrinated precedent that 'true' men take the intitiative in any interactions with women.

Me, I don't really statistically even exist, as I don't ask women out and prefer to relentlessly preen myself and focus on self improvement in the event I might attract someone who might be drawn to me, rather than the other way around, but I do wonder what the real point of this discussion is, other than attention.

Men inviting women to interact is a well-established social thing. Pretty lopsided at that. We've been doing it for a long time, and, frankly, as recently as five decades ago, the social norm for what was considered acceptable behavior by men would seem downright crass, blunt, and barbaric by most people in this forum, had they the chance to witness it themselves. Which is not to say we were cavemen in the sixties-I'm just talking about the common denominator then, compared to now. Granted, I think everyone in this forum would like to imagine themselves as exceptional compared to the general population, whatever that is, but, even so, the denominator applies all the same.

It seems to me that this item calls more attention to the person disclosing it than the issue at hand, which makes me more skeptical of the entire point of this discussion.

Deebaser

Here’s the thing: I’m extremely ugly, especially now that I’m 153 years old. I do have one of those downturned mouths that some people have, so I do look very grumpy when my face is in neutral position. I’ve had acquaintances helpfully point this out to me, in case I wasn’t aware of it – “Gee, you’re a lot less ugly when you smile.” Oh thanks.

The fuck?

Skoal Cat

Eh, typo or an attempt at comedy

Casually Hardcore wrote: »

Eh, all of this is just making things too fucking complicated.

Which is a pet peeve of mine.

For example:

A lot of time when I open a door and let someone it. 8 times out of 10 (making that statistic up), whenever I do that for a woman I get mistaken that I'm trying to flirt with them. But, the simple fact is, sometime it's much more efficient to move people's asses through the doorway without me having the juggle with opening the door and squeeze between said door and people.


I don't really get it.

And even if you are flirting, does that affect the status? Is it insulting? I mean for fucks sake, status is a thing that people (I included) study and everything you do and say affects it. You can't have an interaction that doesn't affect status.

Bama

apricotmuffins wrote: »

personally,

I don't mind being propositioned as long as its 1. courteous and respectful and 2. not done in a place where I feel unable to escape should i need to. If I turn someone down I most likely want to be left alone by that person immediately.

being in a lift, alone with a man I don't know who has just expressed an interest in me sexually, no matter how courteous he was, is downright uncomfortable and a little bit frightening, for the mere fact that I am in a vulnerable position with a person i do not know, who has expressed interest in me that i do not reciprocate.


Why is this so hard to understand?

To be fair, being in a lift alone with a girl who just shot me down is downright uncomfortable.

Aridhol

Styrofoam Sammich wrote: »

Deebaser wrote: »

Wow, one of the youtube comments is oddly spot on:

Some Poor Dude: "Hey, don't take this the wrong way, but I find you very interesting and I wanted to know if you'd be interested in joining me for coffee at my apartment."

Rebecca Watson's mind: "RAPE WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE OBJECTIFICATION SEXUALIZATION MISOGYNY RAPE WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE OBJECTIFICATION SEXUALIZATION MISOGYNY RAPE WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE OBJECTIFICATION SEXUALIZATION MISOGYNY"

Some Poor Dude: "Oh, um, OK..." *backs away slowly*

This is pretty much my read on the thing.

This is also how occurred to me.



HORRIBLE TOTP.


Also "I find you interesting" is hardly an overtly sexual proposition.

AngelHedgie

mcdermott wrote: »

apricotmuffins wrote: »

personally,

I don't mind being propositioned as long as its 1. courteous and respectful and 2. not done in a place where I feel unable to escape should i need to. If I turn someone down I most likely want to be left alone by that person immediately.

being in a lift, alone with a man I don't know who has just expressed an interest in me sexually, no matter how courteous he was, is downright uncomfortable and a little bit frightening, for the mere fact that I am in a vulnerable position with a person i do not know, who has expressed interest in me that i do not reciprocate.


Why is this so hard to understand?

The part where it implies that all men are not just rapists, but brazen enough rapists that they'd go ahead and try to club you and drag you back to their room in a hotel full of people.

Hint: uncomfortable is reasonable. Frightening, and (arguably) vulnerable? Less so.

One might suggest that this is just the slightest bit misandrist. Which, of course, is not even a word according to my spellchecker, while misogynist is. I just love pointing that out every time.

I think that the frightened comes from the fact that this is taking place in a location where there isn't an easy route out.

Unknown

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apricotmuffins

mcdermott wrote: »

apricotmuffins wrote: »

personally,

I don't mind being propositioned as long as its 1. courteous and respectful and 2. not done in a place where I feel unable to escape should i need to. If I turn someone down I most likely want to be left alone by that person immediately.

being in a lift, alone with a man I don't know who has just expressed an interest in me sexually, no matter how courteous he was, is downright uncomfortable and a little bit frightening, for the mere fact that I am in a vulnerable position with a person i do not know, who has expressed interest in me that i do not reciprocate.


Why is this so hard to understand?

The part where it implies that all men are not just rapists, but brazen enough rapists that they'd go ahead and try to club you and drag you back to their room in a hotel full of people.

Hint: uncomfortable is reasonable. Frightening, and (arguably) vulnerable? Less so.

One might suggest that this is just the slightest bit misandrist. Which, of course, is not even a word according to my spellchecker, while misogynist is. I just love pointing that out every time.

So should I just trust every person i meet is going to be nice as pie and never has a bad intention ever?

I don't know the person or have way to tell if i can trust this person. Its like walking home on a dark street alone - you are aware of the possibility. doesnt mean the person walking down the street far behind you is going to attack you, but they could


Perhaps many women feel vulnerable in situations such as these because gasp, things like this actually happen. what percentage of rape victims are female, again?

Skoal Cat

mcdermott wrote: »

AngelHedgie wrote: »

mcdermott wrote: »

apricotmuffins wrote: »

personally,

I don't mind being propositioned as long as its 1. courteous and respectful and 2. not done in a place where I feel unable to escape should i need to. If I turn someone down I most likely want to be left alone by that person immediately.

being in a lift, alone with a man I don't know who has just expressed an interest in me sexually, no matter how courteous he was, is downright uncomfortable and a little bit frightening, for the mere fact that I am in a vulnerable position with a person i do not know, who has expressed interest in me that i do not reciprocate.


Why is this so hard to understand?

The part where it implies that all men are not just rapists, but brazen enough rapists that they'd go ahead and try to club you and drag you back to their room in a hotel full of people.

Hint: uncomfortable is reasonable. Frightening, and (arguably) vulnerable? Less so.

One might suggest that this is just the slightest bit misandrist. Which, of course, is not even a word according to my spellchecker, while misogynist is. I just love pointing that out every time.

I think that the frightened comes from the fact that this is taking place in a location where there isn't an easy route out.

Like, physically? (Route out, that is.)

So back to being raped in an elevator in a hotel full of people? An elevator that probably has cameras in it?

And that just reeks of feeling like a potential victim at all times, which is a weird place to exist alongside being a feminist I'd think.

Deebaser

Well, he was talking to her whilst in the possession of a penis. Obviously, he was trying to perpetuate rape culture. I mean it was at FOUR O'CLOCK in the morning. Who talks to someone at A BAR at 4:00AM unless they're threatening mans looking to fuck or [strike]sluts[/strike] enlightened feminists.

Linespider5

mcdermott wrote: »

AngelHedgie wrote: »

mcdermott wrote: »

apricotmuffins wrote: »

personally,

I don't mind being propositioned as long as its 1. courteous and respectful and 2. not done in a place where I feel unable to escape should i need to. If I turn someone down I most likely want to be left alone by that person immediately.

being in a lift, alone with a man I don't know who has just expressed an interest in me sexually, no matter how courteous he was, is downright uncomfortable and a little bit frightening, for the mere fact that I am in a vulnerable position with a person i do not know, who has expressed interest in me that i do not reciprocate.


Why is this so hard to understand?

The part where it implies that all men are not just rapists, but brazen enough rapists that they'd go ahead and try to club you and drag you back to their room in a hotel full of people.

Hint: uncomfortable is reasonable. Frightening, and (arguably) vulnerable? Less so.

One might suggest that this is just the slightest bit misandrist. Which, of course, is not even a word according to my spellchecker, while misogynist is. I just love pointing that out every time.

I think that the frightened comes from the fact that this is taking place in a location where there isn't an easy route out.

Like, physically? (Route out, that is.)

So back to being raped in an elevator in a hotel full of people? An elevator that probably has cameras in it?

Hey now. I'm not about to disparage the idea of someone being afraid. Fear is irrational. You don't care about ten minutes from now, you care about right fucking now. And what's about to happen before you return to the world you'd rather be in.

Skoal Cat

Deebaser wrote: »

Well, he was talking to her whilst in the possession of a penis. Obviously, he was trying to perpetuate rape culture. I mean it was at FOUR O'CLOCK in the morning. Who talks to someone at A BAR at 4:00AM unless they're threatening mans looking to fuck or [strike]sluts[/strike] enlightened feminists.

To be fair, the bar closed at 3:30 and they were both on their way back to their room... I'm not actually sure who this is being fair to because it seems like a totally legit way to meet someone.
Apricot, please understand that I'm not trying to get all anti-anything here, but how could someone approach you for instance in a way that doesn't creep you out?

Bama

apricotmuffins wrote: »

So should I just trust every person i meet is going to be nice as pie and never has a bad intention ever?

No, clearly you should just mistrust every person you meet and assume that they're a second away from assaulting you.

Deebaser

apricotmuffins wrote: »

mcdermott wrote: »

apricotmuffins wrote: »

personally,

I don't mind being propositioned as long as its 1. courteous and respectful and 2. not done in a place where I feel unable to escape should i need to. If I turn someone down I most likely want to be left alone by that person immediately.

being in a lift, alone with a man I don't know who has just expressed an interest in me sexually, no matter how courteous he was, is downright uncomfortable and a little bit frightening, for the mere fact that I am in a vulnerable position with a person i do not know, who has expressed interest in me that i do not reciprocate.


Why is this so hard to understand?

The part where it implies that all men are not just rapists, but brazen enough rapists that they'd go ahead and try to club you and drag you back to their room in a hotel full of people.

Hint: uncomfortable is reasonable. Frightening, and (arguably) vulnerable? Less so.

One might suggest that this is just the slightest bit misandrist. Which, of course, is not even a word according to my spellchecker, while misogynist is. I just love pointing that out every time.

So should I just trust every person i meet is going to be nice as pie and never has a bad intention ever?

I don't know the person or have way to tell if i can trust this person. Its like walking home on a dark street alone - you are aware of the possibility. doesnt mean the person walking down the street far behind you is going to attack you, but they could


Perhaps many women feel vulnerable in situations such as these because gasp, things like this actually happen. what percentage of rape victims are female, again?

No one is saying that you should trust everyone, but feeling menaced in that situation is pretty weak.

If someone passed a big black guy on the street and sighed "whew, thank GOD I didn't get mugged there. That was a close one", I'd think they were a pussy and quite possibly a racist.

apricotmuffins

Deebaser wrote: »

Well, he was talking to her whilst in the possession of a penis. Obviously, he was trying to perpetuate rape culture. I mean it was at FOUR O'CLOCK in the morning. Who talks to someone at A BAR at 4:00AM unless they're threatening mans looking to fuck or [strike]sluts[/strike] enlightened feminists.

who follows a woman out of a bar at 4 am when she has announced that she is going to go sleep, and when they are alone with her, asks her back to his room?

Unknown

This content has been removed.

DivideByZero

Qliphoth wrote: »

It will end (or at least moderate) when women start propositioning men that they're interested in. If instead of asking out women who I thought were interested in me, I had waited for them to ask me out I would most likely still be a virgin and unfortunately you can't get it right all of the time. A lot of men have a choice between specifically expressing interest in a woman or never getting laid. What this results in is men that develop thick skins from a lot of rejections and just see propositioning women in what seems like an innappropriate time as a case of 'I've got nothing to lose'. Which is correct, they don't, worst case scenario is that some woman you're never going to see again thinks you're a bit of a creep.

Bolded for emphasis.

This is essentially drummed into the skull of almost all guys who are dealing with rejection. Go into any dating advice venue, H/A thread, etc, and the overwhelming response to "I keep getting shot down/rejected" is always unanimous:

"Keep trying!"
"You gotta ignore it and move on!"
"Don't get held back by your failures."
"Get back out there and try again!"
"Keep at it, champ!"
"Sooner or later you'll find one who says yes!"
"Don't get discouraged!"
"Law of averages!"

Agahnim

Sometimes I'll want to go to sleep, but find someone interesting and will stay up to talk with them. This is a thing that happens.

apricotmuffins

Deebaser wrote: »

apricotmuffins wrote: »

mcdermott wrote: »

apricotmuffins wrote: »

personally,

I don't mind being propositioned as long as its 1. courteous and respectful and 2. not done in a place where I feel unable to escape should i need to. If I turn someone down I most likely want to be left alone by that person immediately.

being in a lift, alone with a man I don't know who has just expressed an interest in me sexually, no matter how courteous he was, is downright uncomfortable and a little bit frightening, for the mere fact that I am in a vulnerable position with a person i do not know, who has expressed interest in me that i do not reciprocate.


Why is this so hard to understand?

The part where it implies that all men are not just rapists, but brazen enough rapists that they'd go ahead and try to club you and drag you back to their room in a hotel full of people.

Hint: uncomfortable is reasonable. Frightening, and (arguably) vulnerable? Less so.

One might suggest that this is just the slightest bit misandrist. Which, of course, is not even a word according to my spellchecker, while misogynist is. I just love pointing that out every time.

So should I just trust every person i meet is going to be nice as pie and never has a bad intention ever?

I don't know the person or have way to tell if i can trust this person. Its like walking home on a dark street alone - you are aware of the possibility. doesnt mean the person walking down the street far behind you is going to attack you, but they could


Perhaps many women feel vulnerable in situations such as these because gasp, things like this actually happen. what percentage of rape victims are female, again?

No one is saying that you should trust everyone, but feeling menaced in that situation is pretty weak.

If someone passed a big black guy on the street and sighed "whew, thank GOD I didn't get mugged there. That was a close one", I'd think they were a pussy and quite possibly a racist.

those two situations are absolutely nothing alike.

Agahnim

I thought most cases of rape or abuse were committed by someone you know?