Biased opinion - - - I have a compulsion to drink alcohol. I really want a beer after work quite badly. I will walk to the liquor store to grab one. This probably makes me an alcoholic. I don't drink every day, but I would if I weren't trying to exercise self control.
No one here knows whether you have self control or not. We only know that you were diagnosed as a substance abuser. And it happened when you were 19, which is hardly a time when a young man has a solidified sense of self and responsibility.
If you decided, I'm going to go out and have a drink tomorrow, do you think you could do that? Or do you fear that it will spiral out of your control? I know AA stresses that you have no control, but I think that's bullshit. However, if you're afraid that you can't control your actions, well, maybe you can't.
OP you were nineteen when you were labeled an alcoholic. Do you feel that this was justified? You were also labeled a drug addict. Do you think that was justified? What were your drinking behaviors at 19? How long and often were you drinking? How much were you drinking every time you did drink? Why do you think you were diagnosed an alcoholic?
These are honest questions here.
These are important. There are people who can go out and get buzzed and have a good time and are also people who are "at risk".
"Alcoholic", as is understood in today's culture is wildly off the mark for some people. Yes, there is no better way to lose control than to drink, but AA, who drive the definition and treatment of alcohol dependence, treat everyone as a terror who needs to just never touch it again. That isn't always the best approach, especially when we start getting into anxiety/depression/underlying conditions which are so much more nuanced and complex than AA was ever prepared to deal with.
The sheer amount of social and cultural pressure that comes along with an empty diagnosis of "Alcoholic" causes stress, anxiety and preoccupation. We're people who can't say that we're fine (we're always an alcoholic); people who can't have a drink (because a single drink is relapse); people who cannot argue (because denial is inherent).
These questions are important for these reasons. The label has far too much power, and is a medical diagnosis that is heavily impacted by pretty static, early 20th century medical and psychological philosophy. We become preoccupied with the subjective aspects of this and the only available framework is zero-sum.
i'm glad i'm not the only person who feels this way
granted i too have no experience with real addiction, so it's difficult for me to feel confident in saying any of this
but it's always struck me as really strange to assume that even someone who had a serious drinking problem for a while in their lives can never ever change ever. now i'm sure this is true of a lot of addicts, but it seems to me that the mentality of 'one drink is a relapse' can be harmful for situations exactly like yours, OP. You're warned that you can't ever drink again or you'll turn into a self-destructive boozehound, so you steer as clear of alcohol as possible, but that only makes you want it more in some ways. The extremely black-and-white model of alcoholism we operate under makes it almost impossible to even have conversations like this- either you're an addict, and can't be taken at your word, or you're not, and you have no idea what you're talking about. I know personally that the easiest way to get myself to stop smoking weed when I need to back off is not to say 'no more ever for x amount of time', but rather just do it less often, and have less at each given time. I understand that the situations aren't exactly analogous, though.
I'm also going to throw my lot in with those who say that not wanting to go to the bar if you can't drink doesn't mean you're craving and should stay away. Drinking is different from other social activities, that's why it's such a THING. Being sober around intoxicated people, in my opinion, really sucks. I've just never managed to have fun with it- it's not even that I get bitter about not being able to libate, it's that everyone being all loud and giggly and boisterous just grates on me. I could just be a grumpy gus though.
I can't really advise you to give drinking a shot again just because I don't think I'm nearly informed enough (about you or the disease itself) to make that kind of call- but the fact that you miss it and think you can use moderation again does not make you a delusional maniac. You seem like you're being really level-headed and as self-aware as possible, which is really great. If you do decide to try drinking again, those are the qualities you're going to need to hold on to to see if you are in fact relapsing.
To follow from NotYou's point, if you decide to do this, it is your decision -- not ours, not your girlfriend's.
If you go out and have a drink tomorrow, will you have the willpower to stop? We have no way of knowing, and from the sound of it, you're also unsure yourself. What's the test worth to you? Only you can quantify that.
My dad is arguably an alcoholic, in the sense that he always drinks after 5pm, he feels bad if he doesn't drink, and he'll complain if someone tries to prevent him from drinking. As such, I've been careful of my own tendencies, and I can happily drink one glass of wine, a single cider, or a single mixed drink. I can feel slightly inebriated and sober up before the night is over and I don't feel like I need to "keep a buzz going" or I "didn't even stay drunk." I drink for the flavor and the taste, and I make sure to tell myself if I'm no longer drinking for the taste, to stop.
Even with that caveat and forethought, if a bottle of wine has a half glass and I'm going to bed, I'll finish the glass in a couple quick swigs rather than dump it out. That's the wrong approach to take, but I do at least still appreciate the flavor, even if it's essentially just drinking so I don't throw it out. That's not really much better than just drinking for the sake of drinking.
Only you can test your own willpower, and if you do decide to test it, I strongly suggest you do it in a controlled environment. For example, have your girlfriend with you in the comfort of your own home and limit yourself to a single beer, or even just sipping and spitting. But don't go out to a social event. You're self-diagnosing a potential disease, and you need to be in a safe place, and you need to have someone supportive with you who will enforce limitations on you.
If you can drink a single beer and feel done, without getting angry at your girlfriend for enforcing the limit? If you can sip and spit without feeling like an idiot? That doesn't mean you don't have a problem, but it means you can at least test your own boundaries.
But don't look at me and say "Eggy said do this and now I reset my sobriety count," or anyone else in this thread. This is your decision, and you need to truly gauge how important being sober is to being able to have the occasional beverage. You already had a problem with addiction, so remember that even if you DO find yourself able to drink in the future, you'll still be limited to a small amount of alcohol. You say you want to do it for the taste alone -- can you picture yourself having a single drink once a year?
Hey, just so you all know I'm Demurist's real life friend and roommate. I've known him for over a year and a half now.
Now, I didn't know him back when he was diagnosed as an alcoholic, but I would say the real question for me is "Was he ever really an alcoholic?" I've seen alcoholism before, these people struggle constantly with cravings and feel like they need the stuff to function. This doesn't describe Demurist at all. Alcoholics struggle their entire lives with relapses and the like. The success rates for AA are something like 5%. I have never, in the entire time I've known him, seen the slightest hint of a struggle. Alcoholism just isn't that easy. Hell, I've been suspicious before that he made the whole thing up.
And for those of you invoking the catch-22 ("since he's interested in drinking alcohol again he's clearly an alcoholic") I can attest that there are definitely some social factors pushing him to want to be able to drink again and it's not just some sort of alcohol lust. I turned 21 last spring and was lamenting that I've never had a chance to go drink legally at a bar yet and have no one to go with, well he's 23 now and he hasn't either. His girlfriend is turning 21 this year and she's never drank before either, and doesn't because she lives with him despite being curious about it.
I mean, I understand you people saying that drinking just isn't worth the risk if there's a possibility that he might be an alcoholic, but you have to understand at the same time how unfair it is if a zealous misdiagnosis is making him think that he's abnormal and has to live the life he has been labeled with. There's a serious possibility that he just made some dumb decisions as an impressionable kid that got him branded with a serious psychological disorder when he doesn't even really have it.
Personally, I'm thinking that maybe we should just try to get you comfortable in situations where other people are drinking but you aren't, and then move on from there. If we start to notice a problem we can call the whole thing off.
EDIT:
And just to mitigate inevitable backlash, he and I never talked about it before he talked to his girlfriend about it last night. I haven't been trying to force the drink on him or anything :P.
Working in addiction medicine for a semester, I can definitely say that you don't have to be "craving it all the time and needing it to function" to be an addicted alcoholic. That's a preconception that I'd like to dispel right now. The best definition that I can personally come up with is "Are you or your loved ones or others around you negatively impacted by the behavior?" The occasional drinker who causes damage around him/her the few times he/she drinks is just as much of an alcoholic as the person who needs a morning drink to keep away the DTs.
I mean, I understand you people saying that drinking just isn't worth the risk if there's a possibility that he might be an alcoholic, but you have to understand at the same time how unfair it is if a zealous misdiagnosis is making him think that he's abnormal and has to live the life he has been labeled with. There's a serious possibility that he just made some dumb decisions as an impressionable kid that got him branded with a serious psychological disorder when he doesn't even really have it.
You know, I hope (and am not concerned) that you can understand, Demurist, that none of us are going to ever give you a blank check. But we've given you as much leeway as possible to question and experiment on your own to find your level of moderation. Not drinking is awesome. Having a few here and there is also awesome. Getting plastered isn't. It's about you.
The best definition that I can personally come up with is "Are you or your loved ones or others around you negatively impacted by the behavior?" The occasional drinker who causes damage around him/her the few times he/she drinks is just as much of an alcoholic as the person who needs a morning drink to keep away the DTs.
I'd add that you should probably not call it "alcoholism" but instead "substance abuse", per your definition.
And yes, this is the measure: can you have a no-drama no-regret no-negative night? If yes. Well, that's probably 60% of it there.
The Crowing One on
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
Thing #2 that we are not doing in this thread: defining alcoholism.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
Can't you see a psychologist and Doctor and see if you can't get a professional opinion on your mental/physical state??
Not that I am suggesting that a recovering addict start slamming jaegerbombs, but it seems like you should be able to access more opinions on this subject than just AA with its religious undertones (something that I would find fairly offensive myself)...??
Hey, just so you all know I'm Demurist's real life friend and roommate. I've known him for over a year and a half now.
Now, I didn't know him back when he was diagnosed as an alcoholic, but I would say the real question for me is "Was he ever really an alcoholic?" I've seen alcoholism before, these people struggle constantly with cravings and feel like they need the stuff to function. This doesn't describe Demurist at all. Alcoholics struggle their entire lives with relapses and the like. The success rates for AA are something like 5%. I have never, in the entire time I've known him, seen the slightest hint of a struggle. Alcoholism just isn't that easy. Hell, I've been suspicious before that he made the whole thing up.
And for those of you invoking the catch-22 ("since he's interested in drinking alcohol again he's clearly an alcoholic") I can attest that there are definitely some social factors pushing him to want to be able to drink again and it's not just some sort of alcohol lust. I turned 21 last spring and was lamenting that I've never had a chance to go drink legally at a bar yet and have no one to go with, well he's 23 now and he hasn't either. His girlfriend is turning 21 this year and she's never drank before either, and doesn't because she lives with him despite being curious about it.
I mean, I understand you people saying that drinking just isn't worth the risk if there's a possibility that he might be an alcoholic, but you have to understand at the same time how unfair it is if a zealous misdiagnosis is making him think that he's abnormal and has to live the life he has been labeled with. There's a serious possibility that he just made some dumb decisions as an impressionable kid that got him branded with a serious psychological disorder when he doesn't even really have it.
Personally, I'm thinking that maybe we should just try to get you comfortable in situations where other people are drinking but you aren't, and then move on from there. If we start to notice a problem we can call the whole thing off.
EDIT:
And just to mitigate inevitable backlash, he and I never talked about it before he talked to his girlfriend about it last night. I haven't been trying to force the drink on him or anything :P.
The other point to consider is that if he was just a general druggie and coke head then basically EVERYTHING you do is done to huge excess, because you're just a totally messed up individual... the alcohol may have just gone with the territory so to speak... but having said that, I am not a Doctor and really in this instance you need professional help and a proper diagnosis from qualified people before you should even contemplate it.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Look, life is all about making choices. And part of making choices is dealing with the consequences. You can certainly choose, of your own will, to drink again. You are a consenting adult, and it's certainly not illegal for you to do so. However, part of the consequences of choosing to drink is the strong possibility that you will not be able to control your drinking, to the point where you are no longer able to control your actions. The line here is pretty clear - you will not be left off the hook for the consequences of your actions, up to and including killing other people (and yourself), just because you were drunk at the time. You chose to drink. Just like you can choose not to.
So when you make the argument, "I feel like I can't choose to be a normal 20-year-old," it almost sounds like an abdication of responsibility. You can choose to be a normal 20-year-old. In your case, that almost certainly falls on the spectrum of not drinking. Past experience has taught you that choosing to drink causes you to become a wreck, someone who is certainly not a "normal 20-year-old". There are plenty of young people who don't drink. At all. Plenty of them drink socially, as in once a month at gatherings. Some of them drink regularly. And a very small number drink too much. There's a vast spectrum here of what people would consider "normal" which entails not drinking or drinking very, very rarely (to the point where not drinking would have no effect on their lives).
By choosing not to drink, you are in fact choosing a better life for yourself. Obviously, no one can see the future, but based on history and the information available, it seems pretty clear that you are taking the safe, constructive, and yes "normal" path. What's wrong with that, exactly?
To your other points about twelve-step/AA programs and "God", I and many other people will agree with you. It's unfortunate that the vast majority of programs out there have a strong religious aspect, and that can in turn deter people from making meaningful positive steps in their lives. However, as with the "normal" argument, I find it interesting that you are focusing on this one aspect of these programs to argue in favor of drinking again.
You haven't been to these programs, by your own admission, in over a year. During that time, you have not had a drink. This is, for lack of a better term, a fucking awesome thing. Don't sell yourself short. You very clearly have been able to operate without a program or support group for quiet some time. Every day you have made the choice not to drink, and while it may have been difficult and not without (perceived) sacrifice, it has clearly worked out in your favor. Accentuate the positive here. You haven't had a drink for a long time. That's all on you. That's your strength, not some program or some religious icon or some support group. That's all you. You made those hard choices, and you've built a new life. Remind yourself of that.
Very few choices in life are a zero-sum game. There are trade-offs inherent in any decision. There is a huge circle of positive things happening in your life because of your decision to stop drinking. Don't let the omission of one simple thing outweigh everything that you have built thus far. There's far more to not drinking than "not being able to enjoy a drink". In the vast universe of things to do in life, having a drink is a miniscule, tiny portion of it. There are things to do, places to go, people to meet, none of which require the consumption of alcohol, and many of which are probably better without it to begin with. In choosing to deny yourself this one thing, you are almost certainly opening yourself up to the joys of everything else.
For lack of a better analogy, imagine if you had a severe peanut allergy - one peanut and you're toast. So you can't eat anything with peanuts in it, and you have to be a pedantic, anal jack-ass about anything you eat because hey, if you eat one peanut there's a chance that you could die. Dying would, you know, prevent you from enjoying everything else in life. Yeah, it sucks that you can't enjoy peanuts or peanut butter or peanut brittle or my mom's awesome Kung Pao chicken (omg so tasty!) but the consequences of eating one are pretty onerous, so maybe that's a trade-off you're willing to make. In this case, your restriction is alcohol (and drugs). Maybe it's not as cut-and-dry as an allergy, but you've very clearly experienced the consequences of partaking in those substances, and it didn't turn out well. Do you really want to risk the chance at everything else in life just because of one peanut/drink?
PS - Seriously man, you've done a bad-ass motherfucking job. I salute you for your strength and honesty. Think about all the cool, awesome shit you can do now that you're sober enough to go out and get/enjoy it. Go out there and fuck shit up. You deserve it.
My father finally quit smoking after close to 40 years. He is often tempted to go into a cigar shop to get something, just one cigar, but he knows deep down that the second he smokes again it will all be over.
Do you think you can have just one drink and then stop? Do you think you will feel compelled to have more than one drink?
Just saying, does no one remember OP saying he was diagnosed as an alcoholic at 19 and can count on digits how many times he's been drunk?
I never drank in high school, so I can't really relate. But I know people who were drunk several times in high school, did drugs, got off drugs, still drunk, go to college, have a job and are pretty rad people all around.
OP, the more I read and think about this I think you might need to be rediagnosed or figure it out on your own. You're in control of the situation, when you lose control is when you need to worry. I don't blame you for wanting/craving a drink/beer. Hell, I do that after a long day of classes/tests/work. I do as someone else said and stop by the bar or store and grab something. I enjoy and move on.
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Blake TDo you have enemies then?Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.Registered Userregular
Just saying, does no one remember OP saying he was diagnosed as an alcoholic at 19 and can count on digits how many times he's been drunk?
I agree that this is very strange. But on the other hand he feels he can't be in social situation where alcohol is consumed without wanting to be drunk himself is the biggest red flag to me. I go to pubs and not drink if I need to drive, sometimes I'll just have one and sometimes I won't.
My honest opinion is that I'm not sure if you are an alcoholic as people said on the last page, take up some counseling on the subject.
That was what struck me about the OP too. I'm not interested in playing the armchair diagnosis game, but it seems very strange. Have you ever been in any treatment/counseling aside from AA?
Obviously the worst case scenario if you do choose to drink is that you relapse into addiction to alcohol or other drugs and associated self-destructive behavior. It sounds like AA has been successful at getting you to give up alcohol (good, if indeed you're an alcoholic), but that's not something you're particularly happy about (bad.) AA doesn't work for everybody and there's pretty well-documented criticism of their program, so the best advice is probably to pursue other counseling services and see if they can help you resolve these issues.
On the other hand, the one-peanut-and-you're-dead analogy isn't a particularly useful one. There are lots of people who have been through the recovery process who drink in moderation without relapsing into addictive behavior.
As far as going out and being social at bars, just do it. Nobody cares if you're drinking a soda or virgin fruity junk; you're a little sick, you don't feel like drinking, you're the DD tonight, whatever. As long as you don't make an issue out of it, nobody else will either.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
You could theoretically go to the beer store and buy a single decent beer. Make it a heavy fancy one. Take it home, pour it into a glass (don't drink from the bottle, that's awful) and enjoy it. Just a single beer. Then, if you go "MORE WANT MORE" you won't have any more to drink anyway, and you'll know you shouldn't do it again. If you are entirely unphased or don't even finish the beer, you're probably fine to have a few with your friends at a bar.
Just test it out slowly first. Invite a friend over for that ONE beer.
edit: Also, I have an extremely hard time believing one can be accurately diagnosed as an alcoholic by 19.
You could theoretically go to the beer store and buy a single decent beer. Make it a heavy fancy one. Take it home, pour it into a glass (don't drink from the bottle, that's awful) and enjoy it. Just a single beer. Then, if you go "MORE WANT MORE" you won't have any more to drink anyway, and you'll know you shouldn't do it again. If you are entirely unphased or don't even finish the beer, you're probably fine to have a few with your friends at a bar.
Just test it out slowly first. Invite a friend over for that ONE beer.
edit: Also, I have an extremely hard time believing one can be accurately diagnosed as an alcoholic by 19.
Every alcoholic on the planet is capable of passing this poorly designed litmus test; it's alcohol, not crack. Such an unrealistically controlled situation would merely give false assurances.
The age is not so important as many people think; plenty of people start building that wall of drinks early, even without the turbo-charge of co-addiction with narcotics.
"More fish for Kunta!"
--LeVar Burton
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Regardless of how questionable the diagnosis is, there's very little room for anyone here on an internet forum to second-guess a professional opinion (or even his RL friends, for that matter). None of us are equipped to make such a decision...
I would highly recommend, if the OP feels like he may have been misdiagnosed, for him to seek a second opinion from a real professional, preferably one who specializes in these types of things. Everything else from us is pure conjecture from the unwashed masses.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to be able to enjoy alcohol. Alcohol is and always has been a huge part of our culture and it can have positive effects on responsible drinkers.
The question is whether you can handle it. Many people do a lot of maturing between 19 and 21/22. You are clearly not the same person you were when you were 19. So the question is whether you've matured to a point where you can enjoy alcohol without it having negative effects on your life. That's not really a question anyone on this board can answer for you. The best route would probably be to seek guidance from a psychologist who specializes in addiction.
Having just read through this entire thread, I have to say: it sounds like you want it a little too badly.
It's possible, as your roommate said, that you were too quickly labeled an alcoholic because of your early drug abuse. But then, aren't the factors that pushed you to abuse drugs exactly the same factors that would push you to abuse alcohol?
If this was not something you truly felt was an issue - in other words, if this was not something that you were concerned enough about to illustrate yourself why it's probably a bad idea for you to drink - would you not have just tried a swig of beer already?
Really, it sounds like a bad idea to me. I totally understand your frustration, but it is precisely that frustration that seems to indicate to me (IANAL, or whatever the equivalent is in this situation) why you should just let this go.
... And if your primary concern is genuinely "agh, I shall never enjoy a red wine with my brie!" then maybe consider taking a swish of red wine in your mouth at a tasting and spitting it back out rather than bemoaning the fact that you can't be a "social drinker." Start addressing why it's so difficult for you to be a social person around drinkers instead, as others have suggested.
Also, you obviously have a great, caring roomie and fiancé. Just as an aside, appreciate that support and really think about what you could be putting them through if this ends up being a problem for you.
OP, I've been in your situation with these threads before. You're not the boogieman everyone is making you out to be for having a beer with friends at the bar.
Ok, sure he was diagnosed by a professional at age 19. OP also said that this person who diagnosed him relapsed on crack and was fired soon after.
I'm curious. Is this just a strawberry snow cone? I've never bothered to ask for a virgin daiquiri before.
late reply but yeah, it's basically a fruity frothy slush, but it actually tasted better than the boozy one and he got like a bucket of it for about half what we paid and it was one of the hottest days of the year so he was a happy camper
OP, I've been in your situation with these threads before. You're not the boogieman everyone is making you out to be for having a beer with friends at the bar.
Ok, sure he was diagnosed by a professional at age 19. OP also said that this person who diagnosed him relapsed on crack and was fired soon after.
Do you guys just skim this stuff?
Who's making him out to be a boogieman? Regardless of the professional's personal history, the OP has said himself that he had an obvious drug problem. That's not supposed to be related to how he's likely to approach alcohol? There's no judgement, it's just what the facts would suggest.
As I said in my post, maybe he could have been "misdiagnosed" as an alcoholic. Maybe he should just try drinking and let whatever happens happen.
Or maybe he could stay on the safe side given the problems he definitely had with substance abuse and recognize that his life isn't ruined by not being able to drink.
Well OP, whatever you decide to do, between Winky and your girlfriend it sounds like you have a good support system. As long as you are honest with yourself, and them, it probably won't kill you to have a single drink and see. But what most people in this thread seem to be forgetting is that alcoholism is not about how much you drink or how often, but how you feel when you aren't drinking. That will be the real test. But again, open and honest communication with your support network will be invaluable here if you do decide to have a drink.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
I cannot believe I have to hand out infractions for this thread.
It does not matter what you think of the diagnosis. "Get a second opinion from a professional before doing anything" could be appropriate advice. Telling a diagnosed alcoholic and former drug addict to drink or that it's probably fine, regardless of what you think of the diagnosis or the person who gave it, is not. You don't tell a diagnosed diabetic to eat candy, and you don't do this either.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
Hey, just so you all know I'm Demurist's real life friend and roommate. I've known him for over a year and a half now.
Now, I didn't know him back when he was diagnosed as an alcoholic, but I would say the real question for me is "Was he ever really an alcoholic?" I've seen alcoholism before, these people struggle constantly with cravings and feel like they need the stuff to function. This doesn't describe Demurist at all. Alcoholics struggle their entire lives with relapses and the like. The success rates for AA are something like 5%. I have never, in the entire time I've known him, seen the slightest hint of a struggle. Alcoholism just isn't that easy. Hell, I've been suspicious before that he made the whole thing up.
FWIW, one alcoholic I know and respect makes it look easy because after being arrested, losing his career, and endangering others by DUI, he never drank alcohol again, and avoids all other mind affecting substances to include pain medication.
I don't have the experience to say that is the only way, but it does work.
I'm a bit late to this thread but I wanted to throw my two cents in:
Benjamin Franklin once wrote "Man is a rational animal. He can think up a reason for anything he wants to believe." I doubt there is a scheme so hare-brained that I couldn't give you five completely logical reasons that it would be a good idea go through with it.
It sounds as though you want something pretty badly and in cases like that your brain is working overtime, even when you're not aware of it, to figure out why it's perfectly reasonable for you to have whatever you want right now. Do. Not. Trust. Your. Judgment. Asking others for their perspective is a great step, but it won't do you any good if you don't listen to it. Right now, as you read these words I'm willing to bet that counter-arguments are drifting up from the back of your mind. If you let yourself you'll reason your way out of any amount of good advice.
I think some people are deluding themselves if they think 19 is somehow too young to be an alcoholic, or to be legitimately diagnosed as an alcoholic. That's just a general statement - I don't know the OP personally and I don't know the nature of his diagnosis (which makes all claims on the validity of his diagnosis dubious) - but "bah, he was just 19" isn't in any way, shape, or form a valid argument to justify throwing the diagnosis away.
Well shit, I feel like most 19 year olds are probably alcoholics but a lot of them are some how "able to overcome" and what not and lead normal lives.
tSniperGuy; agreed.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
The question of if he is or is not an alcoholic is secondary (at best) next to the association of needing alcohol to have a good time. The OP's posts indicate that his perspective of alcohol at present is inappropriate, making the ultimate lesson here less of a question about diagnosis and more of a question of relevance.
Alcohol should not, in any rational world, be required to hang out with friends or enjoy social company. People may drink, but the option of drinking or not drinking is not core to the experience in a healthy lifestyle. Regardless of diagnosis, the OP has a history of abusing addictive substances. That plus the mentality of his posts should be sufficient for any rational person to avoid suggesting "go ahead and drink" because that is simply a terrible suggestion.
OP, if you are asking yourself this question, your best options are twofold:
1)See a licensed professional to get their opinion.
2)Don't do it.
Anything else is absolutely bad advice.
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INeedNoSaltwith blood on my teethRegistered Userregular
But I want to know if anyone else thinks this is a logical idea, that someone can overcome their addiction and be able to drink on occasion without returning to being a booze swilling good-for-nothing. In recovery, we are warned about this line of thinking. We are told that there will come times when we attempt to rationalize our desire to drink or do drugs but that we shouldn't listen. We will only pick up right where we left off. This makes sense and I don't doubt it to be true, but it makes me feel like Ed Norton in Fight Club. "Mr. Durden said you would say that." Like I said, I feel kind of brain washed.
I'd really like some advice on this, especially if it is coupled with evidence of some kind.
As someone whose both parents are alcoholics, I will say that if you know you are at risk of overindulging, then you really ought not. And if you're not sure, you shouldn't risk it. I guess it's anecdotal rather than evidence, but all of the worst times of my life started with my dad deciding he'd just have one beer after dinner or a few drinks at a wedding or something.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Guys, your opinion is irrelevent once a moderator tells you to stop. This place is for help and advice, not debate. Your stupid opinions here could actually get someone hurt.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
The question of if he is or is not an alcoholic is secondary (at best) next to the association of needing alcohol to have a good time. The OP's posts indicate that his perspective of alcohol at present is inappropriate, making the ultimate lesson here less of a question about diagnosis and more of a question of relevance.
Alcohol should not, in any rational world, be required to hang out with friends or enjoy social company. People may drink, but the option of drinking or not drinking is not core to the experience in a healthy lifestyle. Regardless of diagnosis, the OP has a history of abusing addictive substances. That plus the mentality of his posts should be sufficient for any rational person to avoid suggesting "go ahead and drink" because that is simply a terrible suggestion.
OP, if you are asking yourself this question, your best options are twofold:
1)See a licensed professional to get their opinion.
2)Don't do it.
Anything else is absolutely bad advice.
I would love to see people back up their suggestions in this thread with actual facts, sources, or evidence of any sort. Because so far I've seen a lot of infractions and yelling go out and yet, no one has proved their ideas are the correct ones for this situation. All they've said is "NO, THAT WON'T WORK, HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST IT."
Other than "go see a real doctor" but hell, we could just lock the thread then. That's assumed. That's something he needs to do if he wants to consider this.
The question of if he is or is not an alcoholic is secondary (at best) next to the association of needing alcohol to have a good time. The OP's posts indicate that his perspective of alcohol at present is inappropriate, making the ultimate lesson here less of a question about diagnosis and more of a question of relevance.
Alcohol should not, in any rational world, be required to hang out with friends or enjoy social company. People may drink, but the option of drinking or not drinking is not core to the experience in a healthy lifestyle. Regardless of diagnosis, the OP has a history of abusing addictive substances. That plus the mentality of his posts should be sufficient for any rational person to avoid suggesting "go ahead and drink" because that is simply a terrible suggestion.
OP, if you are asking yourself this question, your best options are twofold:
1)See a licensed professional to get their opinion.
2)Don't do it.
Anything else is absolutely bad advice.
I would love to see people back up their suggestions in this thread with actual facts, sources, or evidence of any sort. Because so far I've seen a lot of infractions and yelling go out and yet, no one has proved their ideas are the correct ones for this situation. All they've said is "NO, THAT WON'T WORK, HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST IT."
Other than "go see a real doctor" but hell, we could just lock the thread then. That's assumed. That's something he needs to do if he wants to consider this.
There may not be much room for great advice in this thread, but there is plenty of room for bad advice. And if you can't see why telling a diagnosed alcoholic to go have a drink is bad advice, I really don't know what to tell you.
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When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
So then this thread should've been locked two pages ago, rather than allowed to carry on so that mods can get mad at and infract people they strongly disagree with.
There may not be much room for great advice in this thread, but there is plenty of room for bad advice. And if you can't see why telling a diagnosed alcoholic to go have a drink is bad advice, I really don't know what to tell you.
recovering alcoholics don't become raging drunks when they have a beer like some sort of bizarro popeye, although this seems to be the popular conception. There's no objective reason an alcoholic can't "go have a drink." Treatment is about managing the consequences of addiction, whether that means total sobriety or a glass of red wine or a beer with dinner.
OP has to make a decision about how well he thinks he can manage his consumption of alcohol. "I cannot ever consume alcohol again" is not the only reasonable decision he can make, even if his diagnosis of alcoholism is totally legitimate.
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No one here knows whether you have self control or not. We only know that you were diagnosed as a substance abuser. And it happened when you were 19, which is hardly a time when a young man has a solidified sense of self and responsibility.
If you decided, I'm going to go out and have a drink tomorrow, do you think you could do that? Or do you fear that it will spiral out of your control? I know AA stresses that you have no control, but I think that's bullshit. However, if you're afraid that you can't control your actions, well, maybe you can't.
i'm glad i'm not the only person who feels this way
granted i too have no experience with real addiction, so it's difficult for me to feel confident in saying any of this
but it's always struck me as really strange to assume that even someone who had a serious drinking problem for a while in their lives can never ever change ever. now i'm sure this is true of a lot of addicts, but it seems to me that the mentality of 'one drink is a relapse' can be harmful for situations exactly like yours, OP. You're warned that you can't ever drink again or you'll turn into a self-destructive boozehound, so you steer as clear of alcohol as possible, but that only makes you want it more in some ways. The extremely black-and-white model of alcoholism we operate under makes it almost impossible to even have conversations like this- either you're an addict, and can't be taken at your word, or you're not, and you have no idea what you're talking about. I know personally that the easiest way to get myself to stop smoking weed when I need to back off is not to say 'no more ever for x amount of time', but rather just do it less often, and have less at each given time. I understand that the situations aren't exactly analogous, though.
I'm also going to throw my lot in with those who say that not wanting to go to the bar if you can't drink doesn't mean you're craving and should stay away. Drinking is different from other social activities, that's why it's such a THING. Being sober around intoxicated people, in my opinion, really sucks. I've just never managed to have fun with it- it's not even that I get bitter about not being able to libate, it's that everyone being all loud and giggly and boisterous just grates on me. I could just be a grumpy gus though.
I can't really advise you to give drinking a shot again just because I don't think I'm nearly informed enough (about you or the disease itself) to make that kind of call- but the fact that you miss it and think you can use moderation again does not make you a delusional maniac. You seem like you're being really level-headed and as self-aware as possible, which is really great. If you do decide to try drinking again, those are the qualities you're going to need to hold on to to see if you are in fact relapsing.
If you go out and have a drink tomorrow, will you have the willpower to stop? We have no way of knowing, and from the sound of it, you're also unsure yourself. What's the test worth to you? Only you can quantify that.
My dad is arguably an alcoholic, in the sense that he always drinks after 5pm, he feels bad if he doesn't drink, and he'll complain if someone tries to prevent him from drinking. As such, I've been careful of my own tendencies, and I can happily drink one glass of wine, a single cider, or a single mixed drink. I can feel slightly inebriated and sober up before the night is over and I don't feel like I need to "keep a buzz going" or I "didn't even stay drunk." I drink for the flavor and the taste, and I make sure to tell myself if I'm no longer drinking for the taste, to stop.
Even with that caveat and forethought, if a bottle of wine has a half glass and I'm going to bed, I'll finish the glass in a couple quick swigs rather than dump it out. That's the wrong approach to take, but I do at least still appreciate the flavor, even if it's essentially just drinking so I don't throw it out. That's not really much better than just drinking for the sake of drinking.
Only you can test your own willpower, and if you do decide to test it, I strongly suggest you do it in a controlled environment. For example, have your girlfriend with you in the comfort of your own home and limit yourself to a single beer, or even just sipping and spitting. But don't go out to a social event. You're self-diagnosing a potential disease, and you need to be in a safe place, and you need to have someone supportive with you who will enforce limitations on you.
If you can drink a single beer and feel done, without getting angry at your girlfriend for enforcing the limit? If you can sip and spit without feeling like an idiot? That doesn't mean you don't have a problem, but it means you can at least test your own boundaries.
But don't look at me and say "Eggy said do this and now I reset my sobriety count," or anyone else in this thread. This is your decision, and you need to truly gauge how important being sober is to being able to have the occasional beverage. You already had a problem with addiction, so remember that even if you DO find yourself able to drink in the future, you'll still be limited to a small amount of alcohol. You say you want to do it for the taste alone -- can you picture yourself having a single drink once a year?
Now, I didn't know him back when he was diagnosed as an alcoholic, but I would say the real question for me is "Was he ever really an alcoholic?" I've seen alcoholism before, these people struggle constantly with cravings and feel like they need the stuff to function. This doesn't describe Demurist at all. Alcoholics struggle their entire lives with relapses and the like. The success rates for AA are something like 5%. I have never, in the entire time I've known him, seen the slightest hint of a struggle. Alcoholism just isn't that easy. Hell, I've been suspicious before that he made the whole thing up.
And for those of you invoking the catch-22 ("since he's interested in drinking alcohol again he's clearly an alcoholic") I can attest that there are definitely some social factors pushing him to want to be able to drink again and it's not just some sort of alcohol lust. I turned 21 last spring and was lamenting that I've never had a chance to go drink legally at a bar yet and have no one to go with, well he's 23 now and he hasn't either. His girlfriend is turning 21 this year and she's never drank before either, and doesn't because she lives with him despite being curious about it.
I mean, I understand you people saying that drinking just isn't worth the risk if there's a possibility that he might be an alcoholic, but you have to understand at the same time how unfair it is if a zealous misdiagnosis is making him think that he's abnormal and has to live the life he has been labeled with. There's a serious possibility that he just made some dumb decisions as an impressionable kid that got him branded with a serious psychological disorder when he doesn't even really have it.
Personally, I'm thinking that maybe we should just try to get you comfortable in situations where other people are drinking but you aren't, and then move on from there. If we start to notice a problem we can call the whole thing off.
EDIT:
And just to mitigate inevitable backlash, he and I never talked about it before he talked to his girlfriend about it last night. I haven't been trying to force the drink on him or anything :P.
After all, he is probably in a much better position to give you real advice about this.
but they're listening to every word I say
We have :P.
I told him to seek more opinions.
Though I'll be honest I wouldn't have suggested H/A myself :P.
You know, I hope (and am not concerned) that you can understand, Demurist, that none of us are going to ever give you a blank check. But we've given you as much leeway as possible to question and experiment on your own to find your level of moderation. Not drinking is awesome. Having a few here and there is also awesome. Getting plastered isn't. It's about you.
Winky, you're a good guy. Keep that up.
I'd add that you should probably not call it "alcoholism" but instead "substance abuse", per your definition.
And yes, this is the measure: can you have a no-drama no-regret no-negative night? If yes. Well, that's probably 60% of it there.
Can't you see a psychologist and Doctor and see if you can't get a professional opinion on your mental/physical state??
Not that I am suggesting that a recovering addict start slamming jaegerbombs, but it seems like you should be able to access more opinions on this subject than just AA with its religious undertones (something that I would find fairly offensive myself)...??
Pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.
So when you make the argument, "I feel like I can't choose to be a normal 20-year-old," it almost sounds like an abdication of responsibility. You can choose to be a normal 20-year-old. In your case, that almost certainly falls on the spectrum of not drinking. Past experience has taught you that choosing to drink causes you to become a wreck, someone who is certainly not a "normal 20-year-old". There are plenty of young people who don't drink. At all. Plenty of them drink socially, as in once a month at gatherings. Some of them drink regularly. And a very small number drink too much. There's a vast spectrum here of what people would consider "normal" which entails not drinking or drinking very, very rarely (to the point where not drinking would have no effect on their lives).
By choosing not to drink, you are in fact choosing a better life for yourself. Obviously, no one can see the future, but based on history and the information available, it seems pretty clear that you are taking the safe, constructive, and yes "normal" path. What's wrong with that, exactly?
To your other points about twelve-step/AA programs and "God", I and many other people will agree with you. It's unfortunate that the vast majority of programs out there have a strong religious aspect, and that can in turn deter people from making meaningful positive steps in their lives. However, as with the "normal" argument, I find it interesting that you are focusing on this one aspect of these programs to argue in favor of drinking again.
You haven't been to these programs, by your own admission, in over a year. During that time, you have not had a drink. This is, for lack of a better term, a fucking awesome thing. Don't sell yourself short. You very clearly have been able to operate without a program or support group for quiet some time. Every day you have made the choice not to drink, and while it may have been difficult and not without (perceived) sacrifice, it has clearly worked out in your favor. Accentuate the positive here. You haven't had a drink for a long time. That's all on you. That's your strength, not some program or some religious icon or some support group. That's all you. You made those hard choices, and you've built a new life. Remind yourself of that.
Very few choices in life are a zero-sum game. There are trade-offs inherent in any decision. There is a huge circle of positive things happening in your life because of your decision to stop drinking. Don't let the omission of one simple thing outweigh everything that you have built thus far. There's far more to not drinking than "not being able to enjoy a drink". In the vast universe of things to do in life, having a drink is a miniscule, tiny portion of it. There are things to do, places to go, people to meet, none of which require the consumption of alcohol, and many of which are probably better without it to begin with. In choosing to deny yourself this one thing, you are almost certainly opening yourself up to the joys of everything else.
For lack of a better analogy, imagine if you had a severe peanut allergy - one peanut and you're toast. So you can't eat anything with peanuts in it, and you have to be a pedantic, anal jack-ass about anything you eat because hey, if you eat one peanut there's a chance that you could die. Dying would, you know, prevent you from enjoying everything else in life. Yeah, it sucks that you can't enjoy peanuts or peanut butter or peanut brittle or my mom's awesome Kung Pao chicken (omg so tasty!) but the consequences of eating one are pretty onerous, so maybe that's a trade-off you're willing to make. In this case, your restriction is alcohol (and drugs). Maybe it's not as cut-and-dry as an allergy, but you've very clearly experienced the consequences of partaking in those substances, and it didn't turn out well. Do you really want to risk the chance at everything else in life just because of one peanut/drink?
PS - Seriously man, you've done a bad-ass motherfucking job. I salute you for your strength and honesty. Think about all the cool, awesome shit you can do now that you're sober enough to go out and get/enjoy it. Go out there and fuck shit up. You deserve it.
Do you think you can have just one drink and then stop? Do you think you will feel compelled to have more than one drink?
I never drank in high school, so I can't really relate. But I know people who were drunk several times in high school, did drugs, got off drugs, still drunk, go to college, have a job and are pretty rad people all around.
OP, the more I read and think about this I think you might need to be rediagnosed or figure it out on your own. You're in control of the situation, when you lose control is when you need to worry. I don't blame you for wanting/craving a drink/beer. Hell, I do that after a long day of classes/tests/work. I do as someone else said and stop by the bar or store and grab something. I enjoy and move on.
I agree that this is very strange. But on the other hand he feels he can't be in social situation where alcohol is consumed without wanting to be drunk himself is the biggest red flag to me. I go to pubs and not drink if I need to drive, sometimes I'll just have one and sometimes I won't.
My honest opinion is that I'm not sure if you are an alcoholic as people said on the last page, take up some counseling on the subject.
Satans..... hints.....
Obviously the worst case scenario if you do choose to drink is that you relapse into addiction to alcohol or other drugs and associated self-destructive behavior. It sounds like AA has been successful at getting you to give up alcohol (good, if indeed you're an alcoholic), but that's not something you're particularly happy about (bad.) AA doesn't work for everybody and there's pretty well-documented criticism of their program, so the best advice is probably to pursue other counseling services and see if they can help you resolve these issues.
On the other hand, the one-peanut-and-you're-dead analogy isn't a particularly useful one. There are lots of people who have been through the recovery process who drink in moderation without relapsing into addictive behavior.
As far as going out and being social at bars, just do it. Nobody cares if you're drinking a soda or virgin fruity junk; you're a little sick, you don't feel like drinking, you're the DD tonight, whatever. As long as you don't make an issue out of it, nobody else will either.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Just test it out slowly first. Invite a friend over for that ONE beer.
edit: Also, I have an extremely hard time believing one can be accurately diagnosed as an alcoholic by 19.
Every alcoholic on the planet is capable of passing this poorly designed litmus test; it's alcohol, not crack. Such an unrealistically controlled situation would merely give false assurances.
The age is not so important as many people think; plenty of people start building that wall of drinks early, even without the turbo-charge of co-addiction with narcotics.
--LeVar Burton
I would highly recommend, if the OP feels like he may have been misdiagnosed, for him to seek a second opinion from a real professional, preferably one who specializes in these types of things. Everything else from us is pure conjecture from the unwashed masses.
The question is whether you can handle it. Many people do a lot of maturing between 19 and 21/22. You are clearly not the same person you were when you were 19. So the question is whether you've matured to a point where you can enjoy alcohol without it having negative effects on your life. That's not really a question anyone on this board can answer for you. The best route would probably be to seek guidance from a psychologist who specializes in addiction.
It's possible, as your roommate said, that you were too quickly labeled an alcoholic because of your early drug abuse. But then, aren't the factors that pushed you to abuse drugs exactly the same factors that would push you to abuse alcohol?
If this was not something you truly felt was an issue - in other words, if this was not something that you were concerned enough about to illustrate yourself why it's probably a bad idea for you to drink - would you not have just tried a swig of beer already?
Really, it sounds like a bad idea to me. I totally understand your frustration, but it is precisely that frustration that seems to indicate to me (IANAL, or whatever the equivalent is in this situation) why you should just let this go.
... And if your primary concern is genuinely "agh, I shall never enjoy a red wine with my brie!" then maybe consider taking a swish of red wine in your mouth at a tasting and spitting it back out rather than bemoaning the fact that you can't be a "social drinker." Start addressing why it's so difficult for you to be a social person around drinkers instead, as others have suggested.
Also, you obviously have a great, caring roomie and fiancé. Just as an aside, appreciate that support and really think about what you could be putting them through if this ends up being a problem for you.
Ok, sure he was diagnosed by a professional at age 19. OP also said that this person who diagnosed him relapsed on crack and was fired soon after.
Do you guys just skim this stuff?
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Who's making him out to be a boogieman? Regardless of the professional's personal history, the OP has said himself that he had an obvious drug problem. That's not supposed to be related to how he's likely to approach alcohol? There's no judgement, it's just what the facts would suggest.
As I said in my post, maybe he could have been "misdiagnosed" as an alcoholic. Maybe he should just try drinking and let whatever happens happen.
Or maybe he could stay on the safe side given the problems he definitely had with substance abuse and recognize that his life isn't ruined by not being able to drink.
It does not matter what you think of the diagnosis. "Get a second opinion from a professional before doing anything" could be appropriate advice. Telling a diagnosed alcoholic and former drug addict to drink or that it's probably fine, regardless of what you think of the diagnosis or the person who gave it, is not. You don't tell a diagnosed diabetic to eat candy, and you don't do this either.
FWIW, one alcoholic I know and respect makes it look easy because after being arrested, losing his career, and endangering others by DUI, he never drank alcohol again, and avoids all other mind affecting substances to include pain medication.
I don't have the experience to say that is the only way, but it does work.
Benjamin Franklin once wrote "Man is a rational animal. He can think up a reason for anything he wants to believe." I doubt there is a scheme so hare-brained that I couldn't give you five completely logical reasons that it would be a good idea go through with it.
It sounds as though you want something pretty badly and in cases like that your brain is working overtime, even when you're not aware of it, to figure out why it's perfectly reasonable for you to have whatever you want right now. Do. Not. Trust. Your. Judgment. Asking others for their perspective is a great step, but it won't do you any good if you don't listen to it. Right now, as you read these words I'm willing to bet that counter-arguments are drifting up from the back of your mind. If you let yourself you'll reason your way out of any amount of good advice.
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tSniperGuy; agreed.
Alcohol should not, in any rational world, be required to hang out with friends or enjoy social company. People may drink, but the option of drinking or not drinking is not core to the experience in a healthy lifestyle. Regardless of diagnosis, the OP has a history of abusing addictive substances. That plus the mentality of his posts should be sufficient for any rational person to avoid suggesting "go ahead and drink" because that is simply a terrible suggestion.
OP, if you are asking yourself this question, your best options are twofold:
1)See a licensed professional to get their opinion.
2)Don't do it.
Anything else is absolutely bad advice.
As someone whose both parents are alcoholics, I will say that if you know you are at risk of overindulging, then you really ought not. And if you're not sure, you shouldn't risk it. I guess it's anecdotal rather than evidence, but all of the worst times of my life started with my dad deciding he'd just have one beer after dinner or a few drinks at a wedding or something.
I would love to see people back up their suggestions in this thread with actual facts, sources, or evidence of any sort. Because so far I've seen a lot of infractions and yelling go out and yet, no one has proved their ideas are the correct ones for this situation. All they've said is "NO, THAT WON'T WORK, HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST IT."
Other than "go see a real doctor" but hell, we could just lock the thread then. That's assumed. That's something he needs to do if he wants to consider this.
There may not be much room for great advice in this thread, but there is plenty of room for bad advice. And if you can't see why telling a diagnosed alcoholic to go have a drink is bad advice, I really don't know what to tell you.
recovering alcoholics don't become raging drunks when they have a beer like some sort of bizarro popeye, although this seems to be the popular conception. There's no objective reason an alcoholic can't "go have a drink." Treatment is about managing the consequences of addiction, whether that means total sobriety or a glass of red wine or a beer with dinner.
OP has to make a decision about how well he thinks he can manage his consumption of alcohol. "I cannot ever consume alcohol again" is not the only reasonable decision he can make, even if his diagnosis of alcoholism is totally legitimate.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget