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Unbiased opinion on alcoholism needed
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No one here knows whether you have self control or not. We only know that you were diagnosed as a substance abuser. And it happened when you were 19, which is hardly a time when a young man has a solidified sense of self and responsibility.
If you decided, I'm going to go out and have a drink tomorrow, do you think you could do that? Or do you fear that it will spiral out of your control? I know AA stresses that you have no control, but I think that's bullshit. However, if you're afraid that you can't control your actions, well, maybe you can't.
i'm glad i'm not the only person who feels this way
granted i too have no experience with real addiction, so it's difficult for me to feel confident in saying any of this
but it's always struck me as really strange to assume that even someone who had a serious drinking problem for a while in their lives can never ever change ever. now i'm sure this is true of a lot of addicts, but it seems to me that the mentality of 'one drink is a relapse' can be harmful for situations exactly like yours, OP. You're warned that you can't ever drink again or you'll turn into a self-destructive boozehound, so you steer as clear of alcohol as possible, but that only makes you want it more in some ways. The extremely black-and-white model of alcoholism we operate under makes it almost impossible to even have conversations like this- either you're an addict, and can't be taken at your word, or you're not, and you have no idea what you're talking about. I know personally that the easiest way to get myself to stop smoking weed when I need to back off is not to say 'no more ever for x amount of time', but rather just do it less often, and have less at each given time. I understand that the situations aren't exactly analogous, though.
I'm also going to throw my lot in with those who say that not wanting to go to the bar if you can't drink doesn't mean you're craving and should stay away. Drinking is different from other social activities, that's why it's such a THING. Being sober around intoxicated people, in my opinion, really sucks. I've just never managed to have fun with it- it's not even that I get bitter about not being able to libate, it's that everyone being all loud and giggly and boisterous just grates on me. I could just be a grumpy gus though.
I can't really advise you to give drinking a shot again just because I don't think I'm nearly informed enough (about you or the disease itself) to make that kind of call- but the fact that you miss it and think you can use moderation again does not make you a delusional maniac. You seem like you're being really level-headed and as self-aware as possible, which is really great. If you do decide to try drinking again, those are the qualities you're going to need to hold on to to see if you are in fact relapsing.
If you go out and have a drink tomorrow, will you have the willpower to stop? We have no way of knowing, and from the sound of it, you're also unsure yourself. What's the test worth to you? Only you can quantify that.
My dad is arguably an alcoholic, in the sense that he always drinks after 5pm, he feels bad if he doesn't drink, and he'll complain if someone tries to prevent him from drinking. As such, I've been careful of my own tendencies, and I can happily drink one glass of wine, a single cider, or a single mixed drink. I can feel slightly inebriated and sober up before the night is over and I don't feel like I need to "keep a buzz going" or I "didn't even stay drunk." I drink for the flavor and the taste, and I make sure to tell myself if I'm no longer drinking for the taste, to stop.
Even with that caveat and forethought, if a bottle of wine has a half glass and I'm going to bed, I'll finish the glass in a couple quick swigs rather than dump it out. That's the wrong approach to take, but I do at least still appreciate the flavor, even if it's essentially just drinking so I don't throw it out. That's not really much better than just drinking for the sake of drinking.
Only you can test your own willpower, and if you do decide to test it, I strongly suggest you do it in a controlled environment. For example, have your girlfriend with you in the comfort of your own home and limit yourself to a single beer, or even just sipping and spitting. But don't go out to a social event. You're self-diagnosing a potential disease, and you need to be in a safe place, and you need to have someone supportive with you who will enforce limitations on you.
If you can drink a single beer and feel done, without getting angry at your girlfriend for enforcing the limit? If you can sip and spit without feeling like an idiot? That doesn't mean you don't have a problem, but it means you can at least test your own boundaries.
But don't look at me and say "Eggy said do this and now I reset my sobriety count," or anyone else in this thread. This is your decision, and you need to truly gauge how important being sober is to being able to have the occasional beverage. You already had a problem with addiction, so remember that even if you DO find yourself able to drink in the future, you'll still be limited to a small amount of alcohol. You say you want to do it for the taste alone -- can you picture yourself having a single drink once a year?
Now, I didn't know him back when he was diagnosed as an alcoholic, but I would say the real question for me is "Was he ever really an alcoholic?" I've seen alcoholism before, these people struggle constantly with cravings and feel like they need the stuff to function. This doesn't describe Demurist at all. Alcoholics struggle their entire lives with relapses and the like. The success rates for AA are something like 5%. I have never, in the entire time I've known him, seen the slightest hint of a struggle. Alcoholism just isn't that easy. Hell, I've been suspicious before that he made the whole thing up.
And for those of you invoking the catch-22 ("since he's interested in drinking alcohol again he's clearly an alcoholic") I can attest that there are definitely some social factors pushing him to want to be able to drink again and it's not just some sort of alcohol lust. I turned 21 last spring and was lamenting that I've never had a chance to go drink legally at a bar yet and have no one to go with, well he's 23 now and he hasn't either. His girlfriend is turning 21 this year and she's never drank before either, and doesn't because she lives with him despite being curious about it.
I mean, I understand you people saying that drinking just isn't worth the risk if there's a possibility that he might be an alcoholic, but you have to understand at the same time how unfair it is if a zealous misdiagnosis is making him think that he's abnormal and has to live the life he has been labeled with. There's a serious possibility that he just made some dumb decisions as an impressionable kid that got him branded with a serious psychological disorder when he doesn't even really have it.
Personally, I'm thinking that maybe we should just try to get you comfortable in situations where other people are drinking but you aren't, and then move on from there. If we start to notice a problem we can call the whole thing off.
EDIT:
And just to mitigate inevitable backlash, he and I never talked about it before he talked to his girlfriend about it last night. I haven't been trying to force the drink on him or anything :P.
After all, he is probably in a much better position to give you real advice about this.
but they're listening to every word I say
We have :P.
I told him to seek more opinions.
Though I'll be honest I wouldn't have suggested H/A myself :P.
You know, I hope (and am not concerned) that you can understand, Demurist, that none of us are going to ever give you a blank check. But we've given you as much leeway as possible to question and experiment on your own to find your level of moderation. Not drinking is awesome. Having a few here and there is also awesome. Getting plastered isn't. It's about you.
Winky, you're a good guy. Keep that up.
I'd add that you should probably not call it "alcoholism" but instead "substance abuse", per your definition.
And yes, this is the measure: can you have a no-drama no-regret no-negative night? If yes. Well, that's probably 60% of it there.
Can't you see a psychologist and Doctor and see if you can't get a professional opinion on your mental/physical state??
Not that I am suggesting that a recovering addict start slamming jaegerbombs, but it seems like you should be able to access more opinions on this subject than just AA with its religious undertones (something that I would find fairly offensive myself)...??
Pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.
So when you make the argument, "I feel like I can't choose to be a normal 20-year-old," it almost sounds like an abdication of responsibility. You can choose to be a normal 20-year-old. In your case, that almost certainly falls on the spectrum of not drinking. Past experience has taught you that choosing to drink causes you to become a wreck, someone who is certainly not a "normal 20-year-old". There are plenty of young people who don't drink. At all. Plenty of them drink socially, as in once a month at gatherings. Some of them drink regularly. And a very small number drink too much. There's a vast spectrum here of what people would consider "normal" which entails not drinking or drinking very, very rarely (to the point where not drinking would have no effect on their lives).
By choosing not to drink, you are in fact choosing a better life for yourself. Obviously, no one can see the future, but based on history and the information available, it seems pretty clear that you are taking the safe, constructive, and yes "normal" path. What's wrong with that, exactly?
To your other points about twelve-step/AA programs and "God", I and many other people will agree with you. It's unfortunate that the vast majority of programs out there have a strong religious aspect, and that can in turn deter people from making meaningful positive steps in their lives. However, as with the "normal" argument, I find it interesting that you are focusing on this one aspect of these programs to argue in favor of drinking again.
You haven't been to these programs, by your own admission, in over a year. During that time, you have not had a drink. This is, for lack of a better term, a fucking awesome thing. Don't sell yourself short. You very clearly have been able to operate without a program or support group for quiet some time. Every day you have made the choice not to drink, and while it may have been difficult and not without (perceived) sacrifice, it has clearly worked out in your favor. Accentuate the positive here. You haven't had a drink for a long time. That's all on you. That's your strength, not some program or some religious icon or some support group. That's all you. You made those hard choices, and you've built a new life. Remind yourself of that.
Very few choices in life are a zero-sum game. There are trade-offs inherent in any decision. There is a huge circle of positive things happening in your life because of your decision to stop drinking. Don't let the omission of one simple thing outweigh everything that you have built thus far. There's far more to not drinking than "not being able to enjoy a drink". In the vast universe of things to do in life, having a drink is a miniscule, tiny portion of it. There are things to do, places to go, people to meet, none of which require the consumption of alcohol, and many of which are probably better without it to begin with. In choosing to deny yourself this one thing, you are almost certainly opening yourself up to the joys of everything else.
For lack of a better analogy, imagine if you had a severe peanut allergy - one peanut and you're toast. So you can't eat anything with peanuts in it, and you have to be a pedantic, anal jack-ass about anything you eat because hey, if you eat one peanut there's a chance that you could die. Dying would, you know, prevent you from enjoying everything else in life. Yeah, it sucks that you can't enjoy peanuts or peanut butter or peanut brittle or my mom's awesome Kung Pao chicken (omg so tasty!) but the consequences of eating one are pretty onerous, so maybe that's a trade-off you're willing to make. In this case, your restriction is alcohol (and drugs). Maybe it's not as cut-and-dry as an allergy, but you've very clearly experienced the consequences of partaking in those substances, and it didn't turn out well. Do you really want to risk the chance at everything else in life just because of one peanut/drink?
PS - Seriously man, you've done a bad-ass motherfucking job. I salute you for your strength and honesty. Think about all the cool, awesome shit you can do now that you're sober enough to go out and get/enjoy it. Go out there and fuck shit up. You deserve it.
Do you think you can have just one drink and then stop? Do you think you will feel compelled to have more than one drink?
I never drank in high school, so I can't really relate. But I know people who were drunk several times in high school, did drugs, got off drugs, still drunk, go to college, have a job and are pretty rad people all around.
OP, the more I read and think about this I think you might need to be rediagnosed or figure it out on your own. You're in control of the situation, when you lose control is when you need to worry. I don't blame you for wanting/craving a drink/beer. Hell, I do that after a long day of classes/tests/work. I do as someone else said and stop by the bar or store and grab something. I enjoy and move on.
I agree that this is very strange. But on the other hand he feels he can't be in social situation where alcohol is consumed without wanting to be drunk himself is the biggest red flag to me. I go to pubs and not drink if I need to drive, sometimes I'll just have one and sometimes I won't.
My honest opinion is that I'm not sure if you are an alcoholic as people said on the last page, take up some counseling on the subject.
Satans..... hints.....
Obviously the worst case scenario if you do choose to drink is that you relapse into addiction to alcohol or other drugs and associated self-destructive behavior. It sounds like AA has been successful at getting you to give up alcohol (good, if indeed you're an alcoholic), but that's not something you're particularly happy about (bad.) AA doesn't work for everybody and there's pretty well-documented criticism of their program, so the best advice is probably to pursue other counseling services and see if they can help you resolve these issues.
On the other hand, the one-peanut-and-you're-dead analogy isn't a particularly useful one. There are lots of people who have been through the recovery process who drink in moderation without relapsing into addictive behavior.
As far as going out and being social at bars, just do it. Nobody cares if you're drinking a soda or virgin fruity junk; you're a little sick, you don't feel like drinking, you're the DD tonight, whatever. As long as you don't make an issue out of it, nobody else will either.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Just test it out slowly first. Invite a friend over for that ONE beer.
edit: Also, I have an extremely hard time believing one can be accurately diagnosed as an alcoholic by 19.
Every alcoholic on the planet is capable of passing this poorly designed litmus test; it's alcohol, not crack. Such an unrealistically controlled situation would merely give false assurances.
The age is not so important as many people think; plenty of people start building that wall of drinks early, even without the turbo-charge of co-addiction with narcotics.
--LeVar Burton
I would highly recommend, if the OP feels like he may have been misdiagnosed, for him to seek a second opinion from a real professional, preferably one who specializes in these types of things. Everything else from us is pure conjecture from the unwashed masses.
The question is whether you can handle it. Many people do a lot of maturing between 19 and 21/22. You are clearly not the same person you were when you were 19. So the question is whether you've matured to a point where you can enjoy alcohol without it having negative effects on your life. That's not really a question anyone on this board can answer for you. The best route would probably be to seek guidance from a psychologist who specializes in addiction.
It's possible, as your roommate said, that you were too quickly labeled an alcoholic because of your early drug abuse. But then, aren't the factors that pushed you to abuse drugs exactly the same factors that would push you to abuse alcohol?
If this was not something you truly felt was an issue - in other words, if this was not something that you were concerned enough about to illustrate yourself why it's probably a bad idea for you to drink - would you not have just tried a swig of beer already?
Really, it sounds like a bad idea to me. I totally understand your frustration, but it is precisely that frustration that seems to indicate to me (IANAL, or whatever the equivalent is in this situation) why you should just let this go.
... And if your primary concern is genuinely "agh, I shall never enjoy a red wine with my brie!" then maybe consider taking a swish of red wine in your mouth at a tasting and spitting it back out rather than bemoaning the fact that you can't be a "social drinker." Start addressing why it's so difficult for you to be a social person around drinkers instead, as others have suggested.
Also, you obviously have a great, caring roomie and fiancé. Just as an aside, appreciate that support and really think about what you could be putting them through if this ends up being a problem for you.
Ok, sure he was diagnosed by a professional at age 19. OP also said that this person who diagnosed him relapsed on crack and was fired soon after.
Do you guys just skim this stuff?
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Who's making him out to be a boogieman? Regardless of the professional's personal history, the OP has said himself that he had an obvious drug problem. That's not supposed to be related to how he's likely to approach alcohol? There's no judgement, it's just what the facts would suggest.
As I said in my post, maybe he could have been "misdiagnosed" as an alcoholic. Maybe he should just try drinking and let whatever happens happen.
Or maybe he could stay on the safe side given the problems he definitely had with substance abuse and recognize that his life isn't ruined by not being able to drink.
It does not matter what you think of the diagnosis. "Get a second opinion from a professional before doing anything" could be appropriate advice. Telling a diagnosed alcoholic and former drug addict to drink or that it's probably fine, regardless of what you think of the diagnosis or the person who gave it, is not. You don't tell a diagnosed diabetic to eat candy, and you don't do this either.
FWIW, one alcoholic I know and respect makes it look easy because after being arrested, losing his career, and endangering others by DUI, he never drank alcohol again, and avoids all other mind affecting substances to include pain medication.
I don't have the experience to say that is the only way, but it does work.
Benjamin Franklin once wrote "Man is a rational animal. He can think up a reason for anything he wants to believe." I doubt there is a scheme so hare-brained that I couldn't give you five completely logical reasons that it would be a good idea go through with it.
It sounds as though you want something pretty badly and in cases like that your brain is working overtime, even when you're not aware of it, to figure out why it's perfectly reasonable for you to have whatever you want right now. Do. Not. Trust. Your. Judgment. Asking others for their perspective is a great step, but it won't do you any good if you don't listen to it. Right now, as you read these words I'm willing to bet that counter-arguments are drifting up from the back of your mind. If you let yourself you'll reason your way out of any amount of good advice.
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tSniperGuy; agreed.
Alcohol should not, in any rational world, be required to hang out with friends or enjoy social company. People may drink, but the option of drinking or not drinking is not core to the experience in a healthy lifestyle. Regardless of diagnosis, the OP has a history of abusing addictive substances. That plus the mentality of his posts should be sufficient for any rational person to avoid suggesting "go ahead and drink" because that is simply a terrible suggestion.
OP, if you are asking yourself this question, your best options are twofold:
1)See a licensed professional to get their opinion.
2)Don't do it.
Anything else is absolutely bad advice.
As someone whose both parents are alcoholics, I will say that if you know you are at risk of overindulging, then you really ought not. And if you're not sure, you shouldn't risk it. I guess it's anecdotal rather than evidence, but all of the worst times of my life started with my dad deciding he'd just have one beer after dinner or a few drinks at a wedding or something.
I would love to see people back up their suggestions in this thread with actual facts, sources, or evidence of any sort. Because so far I've seen a lot of infractions and yelling go out and yet, no one has proved their ideas are the correct ones for this situation. All they've said is "NO, THAT WON'T WORK, HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST IT."
Other than "go see a real doctor" but hell, we could just lock the thread then. That's assumed. That's something he needs to do if he wants to consider this.
There may not be much room for great advice in this thread, but there is plenty of room for bad advice. And if you can't see why telling a diagnosed alcoholic to go have a drink is bad advice, I really don't know what to tell you.
recovering alcoholics don't become raging drunks when they have a beer like some sort of bizarro popeye, although this seems to be the popular conception. There's no objective reason an alcoholic can't "go have a drink." Treatment is about managing the consequences of addiction, whether that means total sobriety or a glass of red wine or a beer with dinner.
OP has to make a decision about how well he thinks he can manage his consumption of alcohol. "I cannot ever consume alcohol again" is not the only reasonable decision he can make, even if his diagnosis of alcoholism is totally legitimate.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat