I personally default to standards related to harm in my own ethical reasoning
And the people who are crying foul aren't?
Vanguard on
0
Options
NocrenLt Futz, Back in ActionNorth CarolinaRegistered Userregular
Ok, here's another question then.
Why?
Why is GS gutting their games in the first place? You can't say storage issues because they still keep all those cases. Seems to me you would need more space if you gutted them since now you need two storage locations instead of one.
Ok, here's another question then.
Why?
Why is GS gutting their games in the first place? You can't say storage issues because they still keep all those cases. Seems to me you would need more space if you gutted them since now you need two storage locations instead of one.
Probably the most simple reason. Boxes on the shelves make people buy more (psychological effect relating to abundance) and feel that the store is "well stocked". But lots of product on the shelves is also a theft risk. If you gut the games you look like you're well stocked and only have to worry about employee theft.
0
Options
NocrenLt Futz, Back in ActionNorth CarolinaRegistered Userregular
Right, but others stores have the display model/copy and then the rest caged/in storage.
Ok, here's another question then.
Why?
Why is GS gutting their games in the first place? You can't say storage issues because they still keep all those cases. Seems to me you would need more space if you gutted them since now you need two storage locations instead of one.
Probably the most simple reason. Boxes on the shelves make people buy more (psychological effect relating to abundance) and feel that the store is "well stocked". But lots of product on the shelves is also a theft risk. If you gut the games you look like you're well stocked and only have to worry about employee theft.
That psychological edge relating to abundance disappears if customers hear about the secret of gutted games.
This has been my experience with buying new games: All Gamestops I've been in have back rooms. Have a display case on shelves. Customer picks it up and says gimme this one and the GS employee goes and gets a new, sealed copy in the back room. Then the employee walks back and puts the display case back on the shelf.
But saying that a game isn't new because the seal has been broken, even though the game has never been played? Are you kidding me with that nonsense?
You really can't prove that nothing happened to the game after the seal was broken or that it wasn't damaged during the process of gutting the game. In fact that is the entire point of the seal in the first place to guarantee it's condition and Gamestop is taking that away.
Yeah, you can. Check the disc. OH MAN IT'S SO HARD.
The Gamestops in my area won't get the disc until after you have been checked out. Don't like the fact that all 5 discs of a specific game have a scratch on them? Tough shit their return policy says the game needs to be sealed.
I don't know if I've bought anything from Gamestop in a couple of years. Between Steam and Amazon, their prices are usually about 50% higher than I'm willing to pay.
This has been my experience with buying new games: All Gamestops I've been in have back rooms. Have a display case on shelves. Customer picks it up and says gimme this one and the GS employee goes and gets a new, sealed copy in the back room. Then the employee walks back and puts the display case back on the shelf.
This is largely the case. Display cases, with the actual game in the "back room" or in a glass case behind the counter. It's more of less an issue of employees renting out games or you getting the last, open, copy, which should be sold at a discount since it's opened merchandise (a policy other chains often honor).
0
Options
VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
I personally default to standards related to harm in my own ethical reasoning
And the people who are crying foul aren't?
there is at least one person in the thread saying that harm is irrelevant in this case
other people in the thread contend that they have been harmed, but have been unable to articulate how
Well which is it then? On one hand you're crediting your subjective interpretation of what is ethical, and on the other, you're discrediting others for doing the same thing because there isn't any consensus. Isn't the entire conversation about ethics about these gray areas?
You believe no one was harmed. I would charge they were, because had they purchased their title at any other outlet, they would have received a free digital copy of the game. By purchasing it at Gamestop, they are receiving less than everywhere else. That is the harm.
At any rate, we will not agree, but you are creating these stupid double standards about how to evaluate what is ethical and what is not.
Vanguard on
0
Options
The Black HunterThe key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple,unimpeachable reason to existRegistered Userregular
Gamestop appear to think they are something more than a vendor of other people's goods
Ok, here's another question then.
Why?
Why is GS gutting their games in the first place? You can't say storage issues because they still keep all those cases. Seems to me you would need more space if you gutted them since now you need two storage locations instead of one.
Yeah, I still haven't seen a reasonable explanation for why they adopted this practice.
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
0
Options
ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
Ok, here's another question then.
Why?
Why is GS gutting their games in the first place? You can't say storage issues because they still keep all those cases. Seems to me you would need more space if you gutted them since now you need two storage locations instead of one.
Yeah, I still haven't seen a reasonable explanation for why they adopted this practice.
The excuse they'd give you is that they were worried about thefts, if you asked.
In reality, though. It's more about product control and corporate efficiency.
If they pre-open the games, they can control the distribution of the product better. After all, if the actual content of the box is stored underneath a counter or in the back somewhere, how do you know you're getting an actual new game, and not a used copy after a shipping accident happened, leaving them with only the used copies folks brought back from other stores?
Also, they can try and pull shit like this, occasionally, to try and muscle competitors out of the business.
Ok, here's another question then.
Why?
Why is GS gutting their games in the first place? You can't say storage issues because they still keep all those cases. Seems to me you would need more space if you gutted them since now you need two storage locations instead of one.
Yeah, I still haven't seen a reasonable explanation for why they adopted this practice.
The excuse they'd give you is that they were worried about thefts, if you asked.
In reality, though. It's more about product control and corporate efficiency.
If they pre-open the games, they can control the distribution of the product better. After all, if the actual content of the box is stored underneath a counter or in the back somewhere, how do you know you're getting an actual new game, and not a used copy after a shipping accident happened, leaving them with only the used copies folks brought back from other stores?
Also, they can try and pull shit like this, occasionally, to try and muscle competitors out of the business.
They also have a captive audience longer as you wait for them to get your actual product for you, during which they will try to upsell you or sell you pre-orders. If you were just checking out with the sealed box you grabbed off the shelf, it would feel more aggressive on their end if they held on to your product while they whined at you for not pre-ordering. If they have to rifle through drawers to get your game, etc., they have a longer period of time to toss out sales pitches.
What is this I don't even.
0
Options
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
But saying that a game isn't new because the seal has been broken, even though the game has never been played? Are you kidding me with that nonsense?
You really can't prove that nothing happened to the game after the seal was broken or that it wasn't damaged during the process of gutting the game. In fact that is the entire point of the seal in the first place to guarantee it's condition and Gamestop is taking that away.
Yeah, you can. Check the disc. OH MAN IT'S SO HARD.
The Gamestops in my area won't get the disc until after you have been checked out. Don't like the fact that all 5 discs of a specific game have a scratch on them? Tough shit their return policy says the game needs to be sealed.
Uhm, no. I've been going to EB/Gamestops/Babbages for over 20 years. Every place I've been checks out the discs for scratches and will let you look at them before ringing you up.
Indeed. I shop at Gamestop only when I can't find a better deal online, I have a giftcard, or the game is so cheap I don't need to muck about with any additional savings.
Do you not understand the difference between legal and ethical Yar?
Yes, and my point is that someone needs to explain how it is unethical. The implication so far seems to be that you can just say "illegal and unethical aren't the same thing" and this is somehow proof that GameStop acted unethically. My response is to request that you actually explain how it was unethical. And the response I get back just goes back in the circle, telling me that illegal isn't the same as unethical.
I mean, just substitute "played the game" for what you just said. If you can't demonstrably show that someone playing the game causes you harm then you have no legal or ethical high ground? [There are many many titles where actually playing the game will do no harm to the consumer, but that doesn't mean that you can play the game and sell it as new ethically]
Perhaps this is why what you're describing is precisely illegal in many states, because the question of ethics is too hairy. But that is sort of beside the point. The difference is between what GameStop can reasonably attest to, and what they can't. Trust me, this is the relevant ethical matter, and should be the relevant legal matter if there were a law that applied.
Game leaves the store and comes back used? GameStop cannot reasonably and in good faith assert that the product is unharmed. They don't know if DLC codes were registered, DRM activated, pages torn out of the manual, they don't know what degree of wear-and-tear the optical drive has put on the disc, and so on. Maybe the product was totally unaffected. Nothing they reasonably can do can allow them to make such an assurance. Game is opened to secure the disc from shoplifting, or to remove something that shouldn't have been in the box at their store? They still can reasonably and in good faith assert that the game is a new game, unused and unharmed. They can enact and enforce governance and management practices that allow them to make such an assurance reasonably. That is the difference.
Asking someone to quantify the amount of harm infringed upon them in a situation like this is the first step toward trivialization. This is why I refuse to engage anyone on this point. It is totally irrelevant. The amount of harm, if I even could quantify it, is irrelevant. What is relevant is that "new = factory sealed" is an accepted industry term in the sector Gamestop operates in, and Gamestop uniquely chooses to buck that trend to their own ends. That is the only relevant issue here.
If you want to squabble over whether or not "new = factory sealed," by all means do so. But asking people to quantify the amount of harm inflicted on them by being sold an open box item as new either shows a total lack of comprehension of ethics or is a disingenuous attempt to trivialize the entire subject. Either way, I am not interested. An action or policy is not suddenly ethical because, "hey man, it didn't really hurt you that much, right?"
I think you're way off base here. Yes, in order to claim that something is unethical, you do have to back that up, chiefly by explaining how it wrongs someone. Otherwise, I could say that GameStop having the letter "P" in their name is unethical, and I refuse to allow you to trivialize this by asking me to explain myself. Nice try, but no, you actually need reason behind your claims, or your claims are invalid.
And I'm going to clarify my comments: GameStop does have the ethical requirement to ensure that they are selling you unused and unharmed products. I do not agree that it is up to the customer to inspect a supposedly new product to look for signs of wear and tear. In this case, I do not see any evidence that GameStop wasn't living up to this ethical requirement. They did nothing that lessened their ability to ensure a unused and unharmed product.
You seem to be following the logic that it's not unethical if no harm is done, which simply isn't true. I'm not one of the harmed, because I a) don't shop Gamestop and b) didn't buy this game. But I'll ask again: if no harm was done, why did GS offer compensation?
Surely you're aware that people and organizations frequently offer an olive branch or a settlement whether they are in the wrong or not. Haven't you ever told someone you were sorry, even though you didn't think you did anything wrong? Certainly anyone in the business of serving customers has. $50 GameStop gift cards are still something they would have rather have out there, instead of coupons to a competitor's service, so it's a win-win regardless. On release day they probably didn't have enough time to work all of that out. Certainly they are trying to repair relations with their customers. This is not proof of any wrong-doing. If their customers all decided they were unethical for having a "P" in their name... they'd probably change their name. You can be right or you can be in business; the masses are often stupid jerks who don't care. Like I said before, this is just immature "tit-for-tat" reasoning that seeks to hold GameStop to the same standard on opened boxes when they sell a product as customers are held to when they try to return a product, even though there is no rationale why the standard should be the same in those two different scenarios.
The newness of a PC product is based on whether or not the CD Key has been previously used. That is why the packages are sealed. Opening a package for a PC game voids this guarantee and thus, the product cannot be sold as "New" in an ethical fashion. You will remember this logic as the exact same one stores use to refuse returns on opened PC software.
And GameStop can open a package and still reasonably guarantee you that the CD key has not been used. They cannot do this if they allow opened returns. They are different scenarios entirely.
But saying that a game isn't new because the seal has been broken, even though the game has never been played? Are you kidding me with that nonsense?
You really can't prove that nothing happened to the game after the seal was broken or that it wasn't damaged during the process of gutting the game. In fact that is the entire point of the seal in the first place to guarantee it's condition and Gamestop is taking that away.
Yeah, you can. Check the disc. OH MAN IT'S SO HARD.
The Gamestops in my area won't get the disc until after you have been checked out. Don't like the fact that all 5 discs of a specific game have a scratch on them? Tough shit their return policy says the game needs to be sealed.
Uhm, no. I've been going to EB/Gamestops/Babbages for over 20 years. Every place I've been checks out the discs for scratches and will let you look at them before ringing you up.
The first thing the stores near me do when you want to check out is scan the case/barcode on a piece of paper and wait for you to check out before getting the disc. If you ask to see the disc before you give them your money they say stuff like "you are slowing the register down." and get evasive about it till you pay.
The newness of a PC product is based on whether or not the CD Key has been previously used. That is why the packages are sealed. Opening a package for a PC game voids this guarantee and thus, the product cannot be sold as "New" in an ethical fashion. You will remember this logic as the exact same one stores use to refuse returns on opened PC software.
And GameStop can open a package and still reasonably guarantee you that the CD key has not been used. They cannot do this if they allow opened returns. They are different scenarios entirely.
No, they cannot. The manager of that store cannot guarantee me with 100% certainty that the key has not been used, the disc has not been played, or all promotional codes that the customer is entitled will still be included in the package.
Why? Because the package is opened.
The EXACT SAME SCENARIO and reasoning why a manager will not take a PC package back that has been opened.
In either case, you are not working with ANY guarantee worth spit. You are simply taking the other party's word for it.
It is the exact same scenario simply reversed.
Steam and CFN: Enexemander
0
Options
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
But saying that a game isn't new because the seal has been broken, even though the game has never been played? Are you kidding me with that nonsense?
You really can't prove that nothing happened to the game after the seal was broken or that it wasn't damaged during the process of gutting the game. In fact that is the entire point of the seal in the first place to guarantee it's condition and Gamestop is taking that away.
Yeah, you can. Check the disc. OH MAN IT'S SO HARD.
The Gamestops in my area won't get the disc until after you have been checked out. Don't like the fact that all 5 discs of a specific game have a scratch on them? Tough shit their return policy says the game needs to be sealed.
Uhm, no. I've been going to EB/Gamestops/Babbages for over 20 years. Every place I've been checks out the discs for scratches and will let you look at them before ringing you up.
The first thing the stores near me do when you want to check out is scan the case/barcode on a piece of paper and wait for you to check out before getting the disc. If you ask to see the disc before you give them your money they say stuff like "you are slowing the register down." and get evasive about it till you pay.
Because obviously theres a 20 queue deep behind you needing to get in and out. Shenanigans. I've been buying games since King Quest and I've never seen a line in a Gamestop/EB/Babbages that would warrant that sort of "HURRY UP! WE'VE GOT GAMES TO SELL!".
0
Options
KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
I've been in Gamestops where the line is like that, usually when there is like only one cashier and it's after school or something.
But I've never seen anyone denied or accosted for wanting to see the disc of a used game. Hell 90% of the time the employee shows them the disc automatically to show it is not tore up before they buy it!
The newness of a PC product is based on whether or not the CD Key has been previously used. That is why the packages are sealed. Opening a package for a PC game voids this guarantee and thus, the product cannot be sold as "New" in an ethical fashion. You will remember this logic as the exact same one stores use to refuse returns on opened PC software.
And GameStop can open a package and still reasonably guarantee you that the CD key has not been used. They cannot do this if they allow opened returns. They are different scenarios entirely.
No, they cannot. The manager of that store cannot guarantee me with 100% certainty that the key has not been used, the disc has not been played, or all promotional codes that the customer is entitled will still be included in the package.
Why? Because the package is opened.
The EXACT SAME SCENARIO and reasoning why a manager will not take a PC package back that has been opened.
In either case, you are not working with ANY guarantee worth spit. You are simply taking the other party's word for it.
It is the exact same scenario simply reversed.
You're always trusting a retailer to sell you merchandise that is actually functional.
If gamestop opened the boxes but didn't tamper with the advertised product, they are able to ethically claim the product is new because they know it's new (because they're the ones that opened it.) Whether you trust them is up to you, but making the claim isn't unethical if the claim is true.
When a customer returns a product gamestop can't ethically claim that it's new (even if you never played it) because they have no way of knowing what happened to the game after the package was opened.
You believe no one was harmed. I would charge they were, because had they purchased their title at any other outlet, they would have received a free digital copy of the game. By purchasing it at Gamestop, they are receiving less than everywhere else. That is the harm.
At any rate, we will not agree, but you are creating these stupid double standards about how to evaluate what is ethical and what is not.
I'm not creating a double standard. If you don't think harm is a useful ethical standard in this case, then you should articulate a different one.
Consumers weren't harmed by gamestop. Gamestop said they were selling customers a new copy of a game, which is exactly what they did. Them not including a value add that other retailers did include isn't unethical, since they didn't advertise or claim that was part of the purchase.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
But saying that a game isn't new because the seal has been broken, even though the game has never been played? Are you kidding me with that nonsense?
You really can't prove that nothing happened to the game after the seal was broken or that it wasn't damaged during the process of gutting the game. In fact that is the entire point of the seal in the first place to guarantee it's condition and Gamestop is taking that away.
Yeah, you can. Check the disc. OH MAN IT'S SO HARD.
The Gamestops in my area won't get the disc until after you have been checked out. Don't like the fact that all 5 discs of a specific game have a scratch on them? Tough shit their return policy says the game needs to be sealed.
There is no fucking way that this is policy, and if your local store insists, then call HQ and go to a new store. I've returned a used game that was scratched and they replaced it with one that worked. There is no fucking way that they will sell you a game without letting you see it AND then refuse a refund/exchange the moment you look at it.
But saying that a game isn't new because the seal has been broken, even though the game has never been played? Are you kidding me with that nonsense?
You really can't prove that nothing happened to the game after the seal was broken or that it wasn't damaged during the process of gutting the game. In fact that is the entire point of the seal in the first place to guarantee it's condition and Gamestop is taking that away.
Yeah, you can. Check the disc. OH MAN IT'S SO HARD.
The Gamestops in my area won't get the disc until after you have been checked out. Don't like the fact that all 5 discs of a specific game have a scratch on them? Tough shit their return policy says the game needs to be sealed.
There is no fucking way that this is policy, and if your local store insists, then call HQ and go to a new store. I've returned a used game that was scratched and they replaced it with one that worked. There is no fucking way that they will sell you a game without letting you see it AND then refuse a refund/exchange the moment you look at it.
I am not buying a game they would't let me see but store #2 gave me the same bullshit so the stores in my area are clearly pulling shady shit. But as long as their return policy is
Any product(s) that has been opened (taken out of its plastic wrap).
Then returning a new game is basically impossible since they are taking it out of the packaging that it must be in to get it returned.
And Esh the closest store is in a shopping center with a movie theater and an In-an-out burger that is right next to a high school the second nearest is in a mall and also close to a high school and you are lucky if there is more then 2 people behind the counter they do in fact get very busy.
0
Options
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
But saying that a game isn't new because the seal has been broken, even though the game has never been played? Are you kidding me with that nonsense?
You really can't prove that nothing happened to the game after the seal was broken or that it wasn't damaged during the process of gutting the game. In fact that is the entire point of the seal in the first place to guarantee it's condition and Gamestop is taking that away.
Yeah, you can. Check the disc. OH MAN IT'S SO HARD.
The Gamestops in my area won't get the disc until after you have been checked out. Don't like the fact that all 5 discs of a specific game have a scratch on them? Tough shit their return policy says the game needs to be sealed.
There is no fucking way that this is policy, and if your local store insists, then call HQ and go to a new store. I've returned a used game that was scratched and they replaced it with one that worked. There is no fucking way that they will sell you a game without letting you see it AND then refuse a refund/exchange the moment you look at it.
I am not buying a game they would't let me see but store #2 gave me the same bullshit so the stores in my area are clearly pulling shady shit. But as long as their return policy is
Any product(s) that has been opened (taken out of its plastic wrap).
Then returning a new game is basically impossible since they are taking it out of the packaging that it must be in to get it returned.
And Esh the closest store is in a shopping center with a movie theater and an In-an-out burger that is right next to a high school the second nearest is in a mall and also close to a high school and you are lucky if there is more then 2 people behind the counter they do in fact get very busy.
You mean where ALMOST ALL Gamestops are located? No, stop making weird excuses for them or yourself. If you buy something used ask to see the discs. If it's new you're golden.
And no, if it's been "pre-opened" for whatever reason, they put a sticker over the opening to create a seal. Thus, it's been "re-sealed". Before they do this, ask to see the disc. No one is going to deny you that. If they do? Start buying your games form Amazon.
You're always trusting a retailer to sell you merchandise that is actually functional.
No you're not.
Implied Warrant of Merchantablity (valid in most states) is the relevant common law you're looking for.
Anything that anyone sells you has a warranty (replace or compensate) that the product does what it says it does. The person who sells that to you(not sure on the exact liability chain) is liable to you if it does not.
Just because a disc isn't scratched doesn't mean it hasn't been used. The game can be perfectly functional and still be a used product. Every time I've actually bought a used game, the disc has been in good shape and it's worked fine. But despite the game working like new, I wasn't charged new price for it, because IT WAS USED. And that's where the "just check the disc!" argument falls apart.
So why should it be okay for Gamestop to open a game up, and then sell it as new when the customer has no real way of knowing if it's actually been used or not? It doesn't have to be damaged to have been used. There have been plenty of stories over the years of employees playing the games and then selling them as new, and guess what, most of the time that probably resulted in an undamaged disc. But it's still been used. It's still a used product at that point. So I'm expected pay a new price for a potentially used product, even when other used products are also in "like new" condition but cost less. It's ridiculous.
Used games aren't sold for cheaper because they're damaged. They're sold for cheaper bcause they're used. Gamestop can not prove that the "new" product they are selling is actually "new" and they have not proven themselves trustworthy in the past. Ethical or not, it's a stupid and untrustworthy practice that should be done away with for the good of the consumer.
Man, I'm confused and depressed that some people in this thread can take Gamestop's word (or any company's word for that matter) that a game hasn't been played (even though the box is opened), yet they can't take a person's word under all the same conditions. I don't understand what gives Gamestop some superpower to these people. How does Gamestop prove a game is new? It's sealed in a box. How do I prove a game is new? It's sealed in a box. How else can an outsider know? Like, this discussion is surreal to me I think my head is about to explode.
Why can Gamestop employees (which are just people in disguise) be taken at face value?
Why can't people (who don't bear the Gamestop attire) be taken at face value?
Why is one group some kind of transcendental being? I just...
Man, I'm confused and depressed that some people in this thread can take Gamestop's word (or any company's word for that matter) that a game hasn't been played (even though the box is opened), yet they can't take a person's word under all the same conditions. I don't understand what gives Gamestop some superpower to these people. How does Gamestop prove a game is new? It's sealed in a box. How do I prove a game is new? It's sealed in a box. How else can an outsider know? Like, this discussion is surreal to me I think my head is about to explode.
Why can Gamestop employees (which are just people in disguise) be taken at face value?
Why can't people (who don't bear the Gamestop attire) be taken at face value?
Why is one group some kind of transcendental being? I just...
Because people want to buy games from Gamestop and are willing to pay full price for opened games.
Gamestop? They don't want to buy games from you, and the return policy you agreed to when you purchased the game allows them to refuse returns of opened games.
Gamestop? They don't want to buy games from you, and the return policy you agreed to when you purchased the game allows them to refuse returns of opened games.
Pretty much. For the same reason a lot of people like to pretend that McDonald's is serving actual meat, a lot of people go to Gamestop and pretend that they aren't being fisted in the ass.
TOGSolid on
0
Options
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
edited September 2011
Everyone who keeps claiming that Gamestop is somehow destroying their souls by possible selling them a "used" game. Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism and get over your first world problems. Really.
If you don't like it, get a debit/credit card and order your games on Amazon. Otherwise, stop being such childish gooses.
Esh on
0
Options
Captain Marcusnow arrives the hour of actionRegistered Userregular
Everyone who keeps claiming that Gamestop is somehow destroying their souls by possible selling them a "used" game. Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism and get over your first world problems. Really.
If you don't like it, get a debit/credit card and order your games on Amazon. Otherwise, stop being such childish gooses.
If I am paying a premium for a new game, then it had damn well be new when I buy it. There have been documented problems with Gamestop employees opening games, playing them, and then selling them at regular prices as new games. There only seems to be a problem with this idea because it's Gamestop and they sell games.
If this were a car dealership, and the dealer was joyriding and then turning back the odometer from 20k miles or so in the dealership garage, then it would be a bad thing. No questions asked.
The thing with Gamestop is that there is no way to prove that the employees haven't already used the games. With a car dealership, you could take a look and see if there's anything fishy under the hood, etc. Can't do that with a CD. And, furthermore, Gamestop's policies prevent you from returning your "pre-used" game. If you get home and open up your new copy of Dungeon Siege and find out the cd key's been used, well tough luck.
Some people seem to think that just because a company has competitors means that it can get away with shady shit like this, and if you don't like it then move to the competitors. That's idiotic. They should not be allowed to get away with it in the first place.
Everyone who keeps claiming that Gamestop is somehow destroying their souls by possible selling them a "used" game. Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism and get over your first world problems. Really.
If you don't like it, get a debit/credit card and order your games on Amazon. Otherwise, stop being such childish gooses.
Maybe you shouldn't come into a thread about a "first world problem" if you have such a problem with people discussing it.
No one is claiming anything is "destroying their soul" and we have ever right to proclaim our distaste for a company's methods, especially in a thread that's all about their fucking methods. So if we don't like what they're doing, then don't shop there? No fucking shit, sherlock. I'm sure NO ONE thought of that before your wise and brilliant self came up with this gem of an idea. It couldn't possibly be a simple case of avoiding shopping there AND expressing an opinion on it, oh no! I'm so glad you're here to set us straight!
Do you have anything else of substance to bring to the discussion, or are you in fact the one being the "childish goose" by covering up your lack of argument by flaming people who *gasp* DARE to speak about such things? It's sure looking like you're actually the one who needs to get over himself.
Everyone who keeps claiming that Gamestop is somehow destroying their souls by possible selling them a "used" game. Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism and get over your first world problems. Really.
If you don't like it, get a debit/credit card and order your games on Amazon. Otherwise, stop being such childish gooses.
I guess having to deal with us complaining about our first world problems is itself a first world problem. So get over it yourself.
You're always trusting a retailer to sell you merchandise that is actually functional.
No you're not.
Implied Warrant of Merchantablity (valid in most states) is the relevant common law you're looking for.
Anything that anyone sells you has a warranty (replace or compensate) that the product does what it says it does. The person who sells that to you(not sure on the exact liability chain) is liable to you if it does not.
well right, but in the context of the comment I was responding to it makes sense
How does Gamestop prove a game is new? It's sealed in a box. How do I prove a game is new? It's sealed in a box. How else can an outsider know? Like, this discussion is surreal to me I think my head is about to explode.
For all you know, the factory scratched up the disc before it ever went in the box. Maybe it isn't even the right disc because of some obscure error, or maybe it was damaged in transit in some way that went undetected.
The product can still be sold as "new" because there is certainty among members of the supply chain that it's in good condition and hasn't been previously used. Gamestop isn't required to trust you when you claim a returned game is still in "new" condition, and you aren't required to trust them when they say an opened box is "new." That doesn't mean it's unethical or otherwise wrong for gamestop to say that these boxes were new.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
I can probably agree that it isn't unethical exactly(except for the cases where the game they're selling actually has been used, which totally is unethical) but that doesn't mean it's something they should be doing. They deserve to be criticized for it, regardless of ethics. It's just a crappy practice that they don't have to do, something that needlessly makes me as a consumer unsure and mistrustful.
However, I very much believe what they did with Deus Ex was unethical. They straight up removed some of the value from the product, something that may not have been advertised on the box, but was part of the package all the same. Something that an educated buyer would have been expecting to get with their purchase. I would consider what they did along the same lines as removing the Steam copy from PS3 Portal 2 boxes would be. They sold an incomplete product. Period. Without informing the people buying the game that they would be missing something. The $50 coupons were certainly a good gesture, and had I been one of the people who was ripped off I think I would have been satisfied with that. But that wouldn't make the original act any better.
Basically the problem with Gamestop is that they practice a method that invites mistrust, and then they keep doing things(tampering with what's in the box, letting staff play them, etc.) to make us trust them less. They just plain have not earned my trust, and as long as they continue to do this, I will not buy my games from them, and will voice my opinion when it comes up.
Everyone who keeps claiming that Gamestop is somehow destroying their souls by possible selling them a "used" game. Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism and get over your first world problems. Really.
If you don't like it, get a debit/credit card and order your games on Amazon. Otherwise, stop being such childish gooses.
Complaining on the internet about people complaining on the internet?
Everyone who keeps claiming that Gamestop is somehow destroying their souls by possible selling them a "used" game. Welcome to the wonderful world of capitalism and get over your first world problems. Really.
If you don't like it, get a debit/credit card and order your games on Amazon. Otherwise, stop being such childish gooses.
If this were a car dealership, and the dealer was joyriding and then turning back the odometer from 20k miles or so in the dealership garage, then it would be a bad thing. No questions asked.
Stop and realize there's a huge difference between a used car and a "used" CD. After that, take your analogy and put it in the back of the closet where it should be quiet and ashamed by itself.
I can probably agree that it isn't unethical exactly(except for the cases where the game they're selling actually has been used, which totally is unethical) but that doesn't mean it's something they should be doing. They deserve to be criticized for it, regardless of ethics. It's just a crappy practice that they don't have to do, something that needlessly makes me as a consumer unsure and mistrustful.
However, I very much believe what they did with Deus Ex was unethical. They straight up removed some of the value from the product, something that may not have been advertised on the box, but was part of the package all the same. Something that an educated buyer would have been expecting to get with their purchase. I would consider what they did along the same lines as removing the Steam copy from PS3 Portal 2 boxes would be. They sold an incomplete product. Period. Without informing the people buying the game that they would be missing something. The $50 coupons were certainly a good gesture, and had I been one of the people who was ripped off I think I would have been satisfied with that. But that wouldn't make the original act any better.
Basically the problem with Gamestop is that they practice a method that invites mistrust, and then they keep doing things(tampering with what's in the box, letting staff play them, etc.) to make us trust them less. They just plain have not earned my trust, and as long as they continue to do this, I will not buy my games from them, and will voice my opinion when it comes up.
It went both ways. Gamestop was also not informed by Squeenix about what they'd be putting in the box. Gamestop has a right to know what they're selling, and they made it good by tossing a $50 gift card at those affected. You can even read articles where Squeenix goes "Whoop! Our bad! Sorry!".
Posts
And the people who are crying foul aren't?
Why?
Why is GS gutting their games in the first place? You can't say storage issues because they still keep all those cases. Seems to me you would need more space if you gutted them since now you need two storage locations instead of one.
Probably the most simple reason. Boxes on the shelves make people buy more (psychological effect relating to abundance) and feel that the store is "well stocked". But lots of product on the shelves is also a theft risk. If you gut the games you look like you're well stocked and only have to worry about employee theft.
That psychological edge relating to abundance disappears if customers hear about the secret of gutted games.
This has been my experience with buying new games: All Gamestops I've been in have back rooms. Have a display case on shelves. Customer picks it up and says gimme this one and the GS employee goes and gets a new, sealed copy in the back room. Then the employee walks back and puts the display case back on the shelf.
there is at least one person in the thread saying that harm is irrelevant in this case
other people in the thread contend that they have been harmed, but have been unable to articulate how
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
The Gamestops in my area won't get the disc until after you have been checked out. Don't like the fact that all 5 discs of a specific game have a scratch on them? Tough shit their return policy says the game needs to be sealed.
This is largely the case. Display cases, with the actual game in the "back room" or in a glass case behind the counter. It's more of less an issue of employees renting out games or you getting the last, open, copy, which should be sold at a discount since it's opened merchandise (a policy other chains often honor).
Well which is it then? On one hand you're crediting your subjective interpretation of what is ethical, and on the other, you're discrediting others for doing the same thing because there isn't any consensus. Isn't the entire conversation about ethics about these gray areas?
You believe no one was harmed. I would charge they were, because had they purchased their title at any other outlet, they would have received a free digital copy of the game. By purchasing it at Gamestop, they are receiving less than everywhere else. That is the harm.
At any rate, we will not agree, but you are creating these stupid double standards about how to evaluate what is ethical and what is not.
Rigorous Scholarship
The excuse they'd give you is that they were worried about thefts, if you asked.
In reality, though. It's more about product control and corporate efficiency.
If they pre-open the games, they can control the distribution of the product better. After all, if the actual content of the box is stored underneath a counter or in the back somewhere, how do you know you're getting an actual new game, and not a used copy after a shipping accident happened, leaving them with only the used copies folks brought back from other stores?
Also, they can try and pull shit like this, occasionally, to try and muscle competitors out of the business.
They also have a captive audience longer as you wait for them to get your actual product for you, during which they will try to upsell you or sell you pre-orders. If you were just checking out with the sealed box you grabbed off the shelf, it would feel more aggressive on their end if they held on to your product while they whined at you for not pre-ordering. If they have to rifle through drawers to get your game, etc., they have a longer period of time to toss out sales pitches.
Uhm, no. I've been going to EB/Gamestops/Babbages for over 20 years. Every place I've been checks out the discs for scratches and will let you look at them before ringing you up.
Translation: you shop at GameStop.
Super-promises what? Your sarcasm here doesn't even make sense.
Yes, and my point is that someone needs to explain how it is unethical. The implication so far seems to be that you can just say "illegal and unethical aren't the same thing" and this is somehow proof that GameStop acted unethically. My response is to request that you actually explain how it was unethical. And the response I get back just goes back in the circle, telling me that illegal isn't the same as unethical.
Perhaps this is why what you're describing is precisely illegal in many states, because the question of ethics is too hairy. But that is sort of beside the point. The difference is between what GameStop can reasonably attest to, and what they can't. Trust me, this is the relevant ethical matter, and should be the relevant legal matter if there were a law that applied.
Game leaves the store and comes back used? GameStop cannot reasonably and in good faith assert that the product is unharmed. They don't know if DLC codes were registered, DRM activated, pages torn out of the manual, they don't know what degree of wear-and-tear the optical drive has put on the disc, and so on. Maybe the product was totally unaffected. Nothing they reasonably can do can allow them to make such an assurance. Game is opened to secure the disc from shoplifting, or to remove something that shouldn't have been in the box at their store? They still can reasonably and in good faith assert that the game is a new game, unused and unharmed. They can enact and enforce governance and management practices that allow them to make such an assurance reasonably. That is the difference.
I think you're way off base here. Yes, in order to claim that something is unethical, you do have to back that up, chiefly by explaining how it wrongs someone. Otherwise, I could say that GameStop having the letter "P" in their name is unethical, and I refuse to allow you to trivialize this by asking me to explain myself. Nice try, but no, you actually need reason behind your claims, or your claims are invalid.
And I'm going to clarify my comments: GameStop does have the ethical requirement to ensure that they are selling you unused and unharmed products. I do not agree that it is up to the customer to inspect a supposedly new product to look for signs of wear and tear. In this case, I do not see any evidence that GameStop wasn't living up to this ethical requirement. They did nothing that lessened their ability to ensure a unused and unharmed product.
Surely you're aware that people and organizations frequently offer an olive branch or a settlement whether they are in the wrong or not. Haven't you ever told someone you were sorry, even though you didn't think you did anything wrong? Certainly anyone in the business of serving customers has. $50 GameStop gift cards are still something they would have rather have out there, instead of coupons to a competitor's service, so it's a win-win regardless. On release day they probably didn't have enough time to work all of that out. Certainly they are trying to repair relations with their customers. This is not proof of any wrong-doing. If their customers all decided they were unethical for having a "P" in their name... they'd probably change their name. You can be right or you can be in business; the masses are often stupid jerks who don't care. Like I said before, this is just immature "tit-for-tat" reasoning that seeks to hold GameStop to the same standard on opened boxes when they sell a product as customers are held to when they try to return a product, even though there is no rationale why the standard should be the same in those two different scenarios.
And GameStop can open a package and still reasonably guarantee you that the CD key has not been used. They cannot do this if they allow opened returns. They are different scenarios entirely.
Truly; I'm surprised that I'm debating this with people.
The first thing the stores near me do when you want to check out is scan the case/barcode on a piece of paper and wait for you to check out before getting the disc. If you ask to see the disc before you give them your money they say stuff like "you are slowing the register down." and get evasive about it till you pay.
No, they cannot. The manager of that store cannot guarantee me with 100% certainty that the key has not been used, the disc has not been played, or all promotional codes that the customer is entitled will still be included in the package.
Why? Because the package is opened.
The EXACT SAME SCENARIO and reasoning why a manager will not take a PC package back that has been opened.
In either case, you are not working with ANY guarantee worth spit. You are simply taking the other party's word for it.
It is the exact same scenario simply reversed.
Because obviously theres a 20 queue deep behind you needing to get in and out. Shenanigans. I've been buying games since King Quest and I've never seen a line in a Gamestop/EB/Babbages that would warrant that sort of "HURRY UP! WE'VE GOT GAMES TO SELL!".
But I've never seen anyone denied or accosted for wanting to see the disc of a used game. Hell 90% of the time the employee shows them the disc automatically to show it is not tore up before they buy it!
Gamestops are very YMMV I guess.
You're always trusting a retailer to sell you merchandise that is actually functional.
If gamestop opened the boxes but didn't tamper with the advertised product, they are able to ethically claim the product is new because they know it's new (because they're the ones that opened it.) Whether you trust them is up to you, but making the claim isn't unethical if the claim is true.
When a customer returns a product gamestop can't ethically claim that it's new (even if you never played it) because they have no way of knowing what happened to the game after the package was opened.
I'm not creating a double standard. If you don't think harm is a useful ethical standard in this case, then you should articulate a different one.
Consumers weren't harmed by gamestop. Gamestop said they were selling customers a new copy of a game, which is exactly what they did. Them not including a value add that other retailers did include isn't unethical, since they didn't advertise or claim that was part of the purchase.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
There is no fucking way that this is policy, and if your local store insists, then call HQ and go to a new store. I've returned a used game that was scratched and they replaced it with one that worked. There is no fucking way that they will sell you a game without letting you see it AND then refuse a refund/exchange the moment you look at it.
I am not buying a game they would't let me see but store #2 gave me the same bullshit so the stores in my area are clearly pulling shady shit. But as long as their return policy is
Then returning a new game is basically impossible since they are taking it out of the packaging that it must be in to get it returned.
And Esh the closest store is in a shopping center with a movie theater and an In-an-out burger that is right next to a high school the second nearest is in a mall and also close to a high school and you are lucky if there is more then 2 people behind the counter they do in fact get very busy.
You mean where ALMOST ALL Gamestops are located? No, stop making weird excuses for them or yourself. If you buy something used ask to see the discs. If it's new you're golden.
And no, if it's been "pre-opened" for whatever reason, they put a sticker over the opening to create a seal. Thus, it's been "re-sealed". Before they do this, ask to see the disc. No one is going to deny you that. If they do? Start buying your games form Amazon.
No you're not.
Implied Warrant of Merchantablity (valid in most states) is the relevant common law you're looking for.
Anything that anyone sells you has a warranty (replace or compensate) that the product does what it says it does. The person who sells that to you(not sure on the exact liability chain) is liable to you if it does not.
So why should it be okay for Gamestop to open a game up, and then sell it as new when the customer has no real way of knowing if it's actually been used or not? It doesn't have to be damaged to have been used. There have been plenty of stories over the years of employees playing the games and then selling them as new, and guess what, most of the time that probably resulted in an undamaged disc. But it's still been used. It's still a used product at that point. So I'm expected pay a new price for a potentially used product, even when other used products are also in "like new" condition but cost less. It's ridiculous.
Used games aren't sold for cheaper because they're damaged. They're sold for cheaper bcause they're used. Gamestop can not prove that the "new" product they are selling is actually "new" and they have not proven themselves trustworthy in the past. Ethical or not, it's a stupid and untrustworthy practice that should be done away with for the good of the consumer.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
Why can Gamestop employees (which are just people in disguise) be taken at face value?
Why can't people (who don't bear the Gamestop attire) be taken at face value?
Why is one group some kind of transcendental being? I just...
Because people want to buy games from Gamestop and are willing to pay full price for opened games.
Gamestop? They don't want to buy games from you, and the return policy you agreed to when you purchased the game allows them to refuse returns of opened games.
The irony of their return policy is so delicious. Pretty much. For the same reason a lot of people like to pretend that McDonald's is serving actual meat, a lot of people go to Gamestop and pretend that they aren't being fisted in the ass.
If you don't like it, get a debit/credit card and order your games on Amazon. Otherwise, stop being such childish gooses.
If I am paying a premium for a new game, then it had damn well be new when I buy it. There have been documented problems with Gamestop employees opening games, playing them, and then selling them at regular prices as new games. There only seems to be a problem with this idea because it's Gamestop and they sell games.
If this were a car dealership, and the dealer was joyriding and then turning back the odometer from 20k miles or so in the dealership garage, then it would be a bad thing. No questions asked.
The thing with Gamestop is that there is no way to prove that the employees haven't already used the games. With a car dealership, you could take a look and see if there's anything fishy under the hood, etc. Can't do that with a CD. And, furthermore, Gamestop's policies prevent you from returning your "pre-used" game. If you get home and open up your new copy of Dungeon Siege and find out the cd key's been used, well tough luck.
Some people seem to think that just because a company has competitors means that it can get away with shady shit like this, and if you don't like it then move to the competitors. That's idiotic. They should not be allowed to get away with it in the first place.
Maybe you shouldn't come into a thread about a "first world problem" if you have such a problem with people discussing it.
No one is claiming anything is "destroying their soul" and we have ever right to proclaim our distaste for a company's methods, especially in a thread that's all about their fucking methods. So if we don't like what they're doing, then don't shop there? No fucking shit, sherlock. I'm sure NO ONE thought of that before your wise and brilliant self came up with this gem of an idea. It couldn't possibly be a simple case of avoiding shopping there AND expressing an opinion on it, oh no! I'm so glad you're here to set us straight!
Do you have anything else of substance to bring to the discussion, or are you in fact the one being the "childish goose" by covering up your lack of argument by flaming people who *gasp* DARE to speak about such things? It's sure looking like you're actually the one who needs to get over himself.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
I guess having to deal with us complaining about our first world problems is itself a first world problem. So get over it yourself.
well right, but in the context of the comment I was responding to it makes sense
For all you know, the factory scratched up the disc before it ever went in the box. Maybe it isn't even the right disc because of some obscure error, or maybe it was damaged in transit in some way that went undetected.
The product can still be sold as "new" because there is certainty among members of the supply chain that it's in good condition and hasn't been previously used. Gamestop isn't required to trust you when you claim a returned game is still in "new" condition, and you aren't required to trust them when they say an opened box is "new." That doesn't mean it's unethical or otherwise wrong for gamestop to say that these boxes were new.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
However, I very much believe what they did with Deus Ex was unethical. They straight up removed some of the value from the product, something that may not have been advertised on the box, but was part of the package all the same. Something that an educated buyer would have been expecting to get with their purchase. I would consider what they did along the same lines as removing the Steam copy from PS3 Portal 2 boxes would be. They sold an incomplete product. Period. Without informing the people buying the game that they would be missing something. The $50 coupons were certainly a good gesture, and had I been one of the people who was ripped off I think I would have been satisfied with that. But that wouldn't make the original act any better.
Basically the problem with Gamestop is that they practice a method that invites mistrust, and then they keep doing things(tampering with what's in the box, letting staff play them, etc.) to make us trust them less. They just plain have not earned my trust, and as long as they continue to do this, I will not buy my games from them, and will voice my opinion when it comes up.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
Complaining on the internet about people complaining on the internet?
@firstworldproblems
Stop and realize there's a huge difference between a used car and a "used" CD. After that, take your analogy and put it in the back of the closet where it should be quiet and ashamed by itself.
Shenanigans. I've had this happen and they happily gave me another copy.
It went both ways. Gamestop was also not informed by Squeenix about what they'd be putting in the box. Gamestop has a right to know what they're selling, and they made it good by tossing a $50 gift card at those affected. You can even read articles where Squeenix goes "Whoop! Our bad! Sorry!".