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[PATV] Extra Credits s.3 ep.15 - Working Conditions

BogeyBogey I'm back, baby!Santa Monica, CAModerator Mod Emeritus
edited November 2011 in The Penny Arcade Hub
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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    I had actually considered picking up some industry-specific skills - being a software developer/programmer already - and trying to get in the industry, but the horror stories scared me away.

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    BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    Pfft those horror stories are nothing compared to retail and food service

    I have some skills but for the most part I use them for other reasons like making realtic hands for the sims {the stright hand annoyed me} and find ways to circumvent the achievement whipser crap in WOW

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    FalxFalx Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    I dunno, I think growing up wanting to be a game developer/artist/composer whatever and then having your dreams ground out of you under some asshole's boot heel is worse.

    I mean, I don't think anyone goes into the burger flipping industry because they have a dream of touching people's lives... except maybe through E.coli.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdwDQHdVTjE

    Brand looks interesting, not my cup of tea though.

    Falx on
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    FireWaterFireWater Registered User regular
    Well I dunno I have a few thoughts on this episode. First to give a background a little bit about my family. Both my brothers work in finance, and my oldest brother is a CPA, so that means after new years, the 80+ hrs a week begins. My other brother is a vice president of a financial investment firm, so work can exist 24/7 sometimes. He even had to work while we were on vacation (on multiple occasions). I myself work 2 jobs, often totaling 60+ hrs a week, and my wife works late often, with a long commute from NJ to the City.

    With that being said, I think that the game industry can be demanding, I think that its a good thing sometimes. What I don't agree with is publishers cutting team members out of the credits for whatever BS they claim. I don't have an issue with the long hours that are being put in. It isn't easy to develop games, and they cost a lot of money to make. I do believe that publishers/developers can be more efficient regarding production of a game. But if that means that developers have to work 12 hr days, to get a product done by a deadline, than so be it. It is a choice to work in the games industry, and every programmer, artist, producer etc... has to make that decision for themselves to see if it worth continuing their career in game development, or move on to something else.

    I mean if it were so horrible, I don't think this show would even exist.

  • Options
    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    FireWater wrote:
    Well I dunno I have a few thoughts on this episode. First to give a background a little bit about my family. Both my brothers work in finance, and my oldest brother is a CPA, so that means after new years, the 80+ hrs a week begins. My other brother is a vice president of a financial investment firm, so work can exist 24/7 sometimes. He even had to work while we were on vacation (on multiple occasions). I myself work 2 jobs, often totaling 60+ hrs a week, and my wife works late often, with a long commute from NJ to the City.

    With that being said, I think that the game industry can be demanding, I think that its a good thing sometimes. What I don't agree with is publishers cutting team members out of the credits for whatever BS they claim. I don't have an issue with the long hours that are being put in. It isn't easy to develop games, and they cost a lot of money to make. I do believe that publishers/developers can be more efficient regarding production of a game. But if that means that developers have to work 12 hr days, to get a product done by a deadline, than so be it. It is a choice to work in the games industry, and every programmer, artist, producer etc... has to make that decision for themselves to see if it worth continuing their career in game development, or move on to something else.

    I mean if it were so horrible, I don't think this show would even exist.

    Daniel himself said in the episode that crunch time has its place in the industry, especially when everyone understands why they're going above and beyond the normal rates. What he takes issue with is the culture of some places to encourage a permanent crunch state. That's why he cited the burnout rate at the end. For a career with an average length of five years, you'd expect to make a bit more money than the average developer does. Even if they get a job developing other software, they may still be unable to give their best to it, their best being worn down in the game industry. I can't see how such cultures are sustainable.

    But then, US work hours as a whole never made sense to me. Maybe it's my European Sensibilities, but everybody needs time outside either work or their bed. I know some people literally can't afford to do otherwise, but that's something civilization as a whole needs to look at.

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    TojiKTojiK Registered User regular
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    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Brainleech wrote:
    Pfft those horror stories are nothing compared to retail and food service

    I have some skills but for the most part I use them for other reasons like making realtic hands for the sims {the stright hand annoyed me} and find ways to circumvent the achievement whipser crap in WOW

    I wrote about this in my blog, but people need to learn how to stand up for themselves. My job is owned by a man. This man put his son in charge. His son has no management skills and is a terrible person. But he hired me.

    I've spent the last 15 months at this job turning the work conditions around. Not just making them good for myself, but good for everyone else. Mostly by getting his father involved in things again. Now my coworkers and I actually get raises, and breaks for lunch, and we're starting to get enough employees so that people don't have to work a double shift or the crew isn't screwed over when someone can't make it to work on any given day. Rather than, y'know, soulless management practices meant to save money and put the burden on us.

    I've worked plenty of retail and food service jobs. And y'know what? In every case, they have means to protect the employees from abusive practices of management.

    The problem is that nobody stands up for themselves, and this episode of Extra Credits kinda stated why - people are afraid that they'll lose their job. I was scared shitless that my boss was going to fire me when I fought to get a lot of dumb shit changed. Especially when I went over his head and got the owner involved. But I guess that's the kind of personality I have.

    If the entirety of the industry's working staff stood up one day and said, "Enough with this bullshit," things would change. I'm sure your Activision or what have you would fire entire dev teams and bring new people in, but if people are willing to fucking stand up against the unfair conditions then things would actually become better. That's a message that was lacking from this episode that really disappoints me. Yes, it is essentially asking people to risk getting fired or looked on in a negative way by their employer. But goddamn it, someone has to do something. Change doesn't happen by people not speaking up. All the speaking up we hear comes AFTER people have been fired. Sure, it's made awareness a thing, but people still bend over and take it up the ass.

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    mekman 2mekman 2 a goober Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    Ugh! A wonderful episode, but they just described the entire private sector, these are the exact same piss poor working conditions and decisions based on the bowel movements of incompetent upper management, everywhere. I had a similar experience in the design field, but you know, it's true what they said about being blackballed in your field, grow a pair and that may be all the "growth" you'll ever know in your job experience. So yeah.

    But my bosses had me doing their dishes and looking after their nieces and nephews, talk about a lack of appreciation. I was the sole employee of a design staffing firm while my boss was pregnant (since she pissed off everyone else). I was literally with her from the time she became pregnant, to the days she cheated on her fiance (in the office) to the day of the child's birth. And I stayed with them even through the days when she wasn't present while working a second job. But just because I was no longer willing to feel awkward, so that she could be queen, she made things very hard for me until I quit. Quitting was my mistake for sure, but I don't feel bad about it.

    mekman 2 on
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    LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    Brainleech wrote: »
    Pfft those horror stories are nothing compared to retail and food service

    I have some skills but for the most part I use them for other reasons like making realtic hands for the sims {the stright hand annoyed me} and find ways to circumvent the achievement whipser crap in WOW

    how about we avoid dick waving contests in threads like this about who has it worse, because it's always really, really stupid.

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    SeolSeol Registered User regular
    People who know about software development know that 40-hour weeks are actually more productive than 60-hour weeks. Not per hour, but in total. Putting in the hours when you care is one thing: putting in the hours when you have to is not only counterproductive to morale, but also to work that is actually done.

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    RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    Crunch time without purpose....makes sense to me.

    I think this goes back to that communication issue that so many companies talk about and promote but sometimes fail at.

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    ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote:
    Brainleech wrote:
    Pfft those horror stories are nothing compared to retail and food service

    I have some skills but for the most part I use them for other reasons like making realtic hands for the sims {the stright hand annoyed me} and find ways to circumvent the achievement whipser crap in WOW

    I wrote about this in my blog, but people need to learn how to stand up for themselves. My job is owned by a man. This man put his son in charge. His son has no management skills and is a terrible person. But he hired me.

    I've spent the last 15 months at this job turning the work conditions around. Not just making them good for myself, but good for everyone else. Mostly by getting his father involved in things again. Now my coworkers and I actually get raises, and breaks for lunch, and we're starting to get enough employees so that people don't have to work a double shift or the crew isn't screwed over when someone can't make it to work on any given day. Rather than, y'know, soulless management practices meant to save money and put the burden on us.

    I've worked plenty of retail and food service jobs. And y'know what? In every case, they have means to protect the employees from abusive practices of management.

    The problem is that nobody stands up for themselves, and this episode of Extra Credits kinda stated why - people are afraid that they'll lose their job. I was scared shitless that my boss was going to fire me when I fought to get a lot of dumb shit changed. Especially when I went over his head and got the owner involved. But I guess that's the kind of personality I have.

    If the entirety of the industry's working staff stood up one day and said, "Enough with this bullshit," things would change. I'm sure your Activision or what have you would fire entire dev teams and bring new people in, but if people are willing to fucking stand up against the unfair conditions then things would actually become better. That's a message that was lacking from this episode that really disappoints me. Yes, it is essentially asking people to risk getting fired or looked on in a negative way by their employer. But goddamn it, someone has to do something. Change doesn't happen by people not speaking up. All the speaking up we hear comes AFTER people have been fired. Sure, it's made awareness a thing, but people still bend over and take it up the ass.

    The problem is, you have a culture (at least in the US) of being told to basically "put up or shut up"

    I mean, take a look at the current state of unions in the US. In their most basic form they a way for a bunch of people to stand up and say "Enough with the bullshit", but rather than having everyone be for the idea of grouping together for rights, certain groups have poisoned the general populous against them.

    Right now, most people won't risk their job for any reason because they have little chance of finding another one.

    And this is basically slowly killing us

  • Options
    FireWaterFireWater Registered User regular
    FireWater wrote:
    Well I dunno I have a few thoughts on this episode. First to give a background a little bit about my family. Both my brothers work in finance, and my oldest brother is a CPA, so that means after new years, the 80+ hrs a week begins. My other brother is a vice president of a financial investment firm, so work can exist 24/7 sometimes. He even had to work while we were on vacation (on multiple occasions). I myself work 2 jobs, often totaling 60+ hrs a week, and my wife works late often, with a long commute from NJ to the City.

    With that being said, I think that the game industry can be demanding, I think that its a good thing sometimes. What I don't agree with is publishers cutting team members out of the credits for whatever BS they claim. I don't have an issue with the long hours that are being put in. It isn't easy to develop games, and they cost a lot of money to make. I do believe that publishers/developers can be more efficient regarding production of a game. But if that means that developers have to work 12 hr days, to get a product done by a deadline, than so be it. It is a choice to work in the games industry, and every programmer, artist, producer etc... has to make that decision for themselves to see if it worth continuing their career in game development, or move on to something else.

    I mean if it were so horrible, I don't think this show would even exist.

    Daniel himself said in the episode that crunch time has its place in the industry, especially when everyone understands why they're going above and beyond the normal rates. What he takes issue with is the culture of some places to encourage a permanent crunch state. That's why he cited the burnout rate at the end. For a career with an average length of five years, you'd expect to make a bit more money than the average developer does. Even if they get a job developing other software, they may still be unable to give their best to it, their best being worn down in the game industry. I can't see how such cultures are sustainable.

    But then, US work hours as a whole never made sense to me. Maybe it's my European Sensibilities, but everybody needs time outside either work or their bed. I know some people literally can't afford to do otherwise, but that's something civilization as a whole needs to look at.

    Not to get off topic, but isn't part of the reason the European market is collapsing because there is too much time off and not enough work getting done?

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    FireWaterFireWater Registered User regular
    ronzo wrote:
    Henroid wrote:
    Brainleech wrote:
    Pfft those horror stories are nothing compared to retail and food service

    I have some skills but for the most part I use them for other reasons like making realtic hands for the sims {the stright hand annoyed me} and find ways to circumvent the achievement whipser crap in WOW

    I wrote about this in my blog, but people need to learn how to stand up for themselves. My job is owned by a man. This man put his son in charge. His son has no management skills and is a terrible person. But he hired me.

    I've spent the last 15 months at this job turning the work conditions around. Not just making them good for myself, but good for everyone else. Mostly by getting his father involved in things again. Now my coworkers and I actually get raises, and breaks for lunch, and we're starting to get enough employees so that people don't have to work a double shift or the crew isn't screwed over when someone can't make it to work on any given day. Rather than, y'know, soulless management practices meant to save money and put the burden on us.

    I've worked plenty of retail and food service jobs. And y'know what? In every case, they have means to protect the employees from abusive practices of management.

    The problem is that nobody stands up for themselves, and this episode of Extra Credits kinda stated why - people are afraid that they'll lose their job. I was scared shitless that my boss was going to fire me when I fought to get a lot of dumb shit changed. Especially when I went over his head and got the owner involved. But I guess that's the kind of personality I have.

    If the entirety of the industry's working staff stood up one day and said, "Enough with this bullshit," things would change. I'm sure your Activision or what have you would fire entire dev teams and bring new people in, but if people are willing to fucking stand up against the unfair conditions then things would actually become better. That's a message that was lacking from this episode that really disappoints me. Yes, it is essentially asking people to risk getting fired or looked on in a negative way by their employer. But goddamn it, someone has to do something. Change doesn't happen by people not speaking up. All the speaking up we hear comes AFTER people have been fired. Sure, it's made awareness a thing, but people still bend over and take it up the ass.

    The problem is, you have a culture (at least in the US) of being told to basically "put up or shut up"

    I mean, take a look at the current state of unions in the US. In their most basic form they a way for a bunch of people to stand up and say "Enough with the bullshit", but rather than having everyone be for the idea of grouping together for rights, certain groups have poisoned the general populous against them.

    Right now, most people won't risk their job for any reason because they have little chance of finding another one.

    And this is basically slowly killing us

    Some would argue that the unions are part of the reason that there is a trillion dollars worth of work overseas instead of the USA. States were union labor is not forced usually have better economies than the states that force some employees to join a union.

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    GospreyGosprey Registered User regular
    Actually its company shareholders that are the reason why work has been consistently moved overseas from the USA.

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    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Don't forget tax laws passed in the 90's.

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    LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    FireWater wrote: »
    ronzo wrote:
    Henroid wrote:
    Brainleech wrote:
    Pfft those horror stories are nothing compared to retail and food service

    I have some skills but for the most part I use them for other reasons like making realtic hands for the sims {the stright hand annoyed me} and find ways to circumvent the achievement whipser crap in WOW

    I wrote about this in my blog, but people need to learn how to stand up for themselves. My job is owned by a man. This man put his son in charge. His son has no management skills and is a terrible person. But he hired me.

    I've spent the last 15 months at this job turning the work conditions around. Not just making them good for myself, but good for everyone else. Mostly by getting his father involved in things again. Now my coworkers and I actually get raises, and breaks for lunch, and we're starting to get enough employees so that people don't have to work a double shift or the crew isn't screwed over when someone can't make it to work on any given day. Rather than, y'know, soulless management practices meant to save money and put the burden on us.

    I've worked plenty of retail and food service jobs. And y'know what? In every case, they have means to protect the employees from abusive practices of management.

    The problem is that nobody stands up for themselves, and this episode of Extra Credits kinda stated why - people are afraid that they'll lose their job. I was scared shitless that my boss was going to fire me when I fought to get a lot of dumb shit changed. Especially when I went over his head and got the owner involved. But I guess that's the kind of personality I have.

    If the entirety of the industry's working staff stood up one day and said, "Enough with this bullshit," things would change. I'm sure your Activision or what have you would fire entire dev teams and bring new people in, but if people are willing to fucking stand up against the unfair conditions then things would actually become better. That's a message that was lacking from this episode that really disappoints me. Yes, it is essentially asking people to risk getting fired or looked on in a negative way by their employer. But goddamn it, someone has to do something. Change doesn't happen by people not speaking up. All the speaking up we hear comes AFTER people have been fired. Sure, it's made awareness a thing, but people still bend over and take it up the ass.

    The problem is, you have a culture (at least in the US) of being told to basically "put up or shut up"

    I mean, take a look at the current state of unions in the US. In their most basic form they a way for a bunch of people to stand up and say "Enough with the bullshit", but rather than having everyone be for the idea of grouping together for rights, certain groups have poisoned the general populous against them.

    Right now, most people won't risk their job for any reason because they have little chance of finding another one.

    And this is basically slowly killing us

    Some would argue that the unions are part of the reason that there is a trillion dollars worth of work overseas instead of the USA. States were union labor is not forced usually have better economies than the states that force some employees to join a union.

    yeah, the american south has been doing really great these days

    fake edit: (No, it hasn't that was sarcastic)
    Here is a breakdown of right to work states

    400px-Right_to_work.svg.png

    Here is a breakdown of poverty levels in America

    350px-US_states_by_poverty_rate.svg.png


    Here is a breakdown of unemployment rates

    resized_econ_cal_june_2010.jpg


    Oh hey, look at all those unemployed and impoverished people in right to work states, someone should tell them that their state is doing better economically since they don't have unions!

  • Options
    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    There is one thing that Daniel needs to be called out on - his statement that the industry is just now getting to understand scheduling.

    That statement is 100% premium gooseshit.

    I do agree with him that the game industry for a long time botched scheduling. But it's not because they didn't know how to. The go-to book on the theory of software development management and scheduling, The Mythical Man-Month, has been around for decades. It explains all of the major fallacies in development, why crunch (and especially sustained crunch) is not just ineffective, but in fact counter productive, and other "secrets" that haven't been for quite some time.

    The industry didn't just not understand scheduling. They chose not to.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • Options
    Mc zanyMc zany Registered User regular
    Why should they schedule properly when there is a never ending stream of people more than willing to endure ongoing crunch time.

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    jackaljackal Fuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse. Registered User regular
    Because they would get more production out of a well rested employee that is familiar with their companies processes and products then they would get from a new hire that's just going to throw hours of bleary unfocused work at the wall until they get burned out and quit.

  • Options
    TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    Not to get off topic, but isn't part of the reason the European market is collapsing because there is too much time off and not enough work getting done?
    It has more to do with those notions being taken to unreasonable extremes in a few countries (Greece), and corruption in the system (Greece).
    Because they would get more production out of a well rested employee that is familiar with their companies processes and products then they would get from a new hire that's just going to throw hours of bleary unfocused work at the wall until they get burned out and quit.
    This. Crunch time can work when those doing the work are motivated and have a genuine drive for what's being done, but generally, burning out those doing the work is very counterproductive.

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    FireWater wrote:
    Not to get off topic, but isn't part of the reason the European market is collapsing because there is too much time off and not enough work getting done?

    The difficulties the Eurozone is facing have many different causes, but having six weeks off a year is not one of them.

  • Options
    zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    If your employees have to work more than 50 hours a week. You did a poor job in project management. If you have your workers working more than 60 hours you are doing a shit job and are probably a horrible person. That being said, generally productivity is good till about 46 hours into the week. The difference in productivity between 40 and 46 is minimal. At 50 your people are still productive but there is a noticeable drop. After 60 hours and your looking at %40-%45 of their productivity before 40 hours, and there is a point after 70 hours where productivity is actually negative. I would love to cite source but for the life of me I can't find my organizational management book.

    The Eurozone is having problems for other reasons, sweet jobs are not it. I think the biggest problems, is they pay too much money without getting anything in return. Health care is about a third of expenses, but that is everywhere. Health care is expensive. The government is simply paying out too much and they are too afraid to cut programs. The US is doing the same thing, cutting benefits to workers and trying to trim costs because they lack the testicular fortitude to just cancel a program. You can only trim so much before you cut a program.

  • Options
    luqiusluqius Registered User new member
    I think it might take some time until the majority of the companies get away from the exploitation thinking.
    That progress could very well be accelerated by employees focusing more on the working conditions instead of promised paycheck when applying to a company.

  • Options
    FireWaterFireWater Registered User regular
    Langly wrote:
    FireWater wrote: »
    ronzo wrote:
    Henroid wrote:
    Brainleech wrote:
    Pfft those horror stories are nothing compared to retail and food service

    I have some skills but for the most part I use them for other reasons like making realtic hands for the sims {the stright hand annoyed me} and find ways to circumvent the achievement whipser crap in WOW

    I wrote about this in my blog, but people need to learn how to stand up for themselves. My job is owned by a man. This man put his son in charge. His son has no management skills and is a terrible person. But he hired me.

    I've spent the last 15 months at this job turning the work conditions around. Not just making them good for myself, but good for everyone else. Mostly by getting his father involved in things again. Now my coworkers and I actually get raises, and breaks for lunch, and we're starting to get enough employees so that people don't have to work a double shift or the crew isn't screwed over when someone can't make it to work on any given day. Rather than, y'know, soulless management practices meant to save money and put the burden on us.

    I've worked plenty of retail and food service jobs. And y'know what? In every case, they have means to protect the employees from abusive practices of management.

    The problem is that nobody stands up for themselves, and this episode of Extra Credits kinda stated why - people are afraid that they'll lose their job. I was scared shitless that my boss was going to fire me when I fought to get a lot of dumb shit changed. Especially when I went over his head and got the owner involved. But I guess that's the kind of personality I have.

    If the entirety of the industry's working staff stood up one day and said, "Enough with this bullshit," things would change. I'm sure your Activision or what have you would fire entire dev teams and bring new people in, but if people are willing to fucking stand up against the unfair conditions then things would actually become better. That's a message that was lacking from this episode that really disappoints me. Yes, it is essentially asking people to risk getting fired or looked on in a negative way by their employer. But goddamn it, someone has to do something. Change doesn't happen by people not speaking up. All the speaking up we hear comes AFTER people have been fired. Sure, it's made awareness a thing, but people still bend over and take it up the ass.

    The problem is, you have a culture (at least in the US) of being told to basically "put up or shut up"

    I mean, take a look at the current state of unions in the US. In their most basic form they a way for a bunch of people to stand up and say "Enough with the bullshit", but rather than having everyone be for the idea of grouping together for rights, certain groups have poisoned the general populous against them.

    Right now, most people won't risk their job for any reason because they have little chance of finding another one.

    And this is basically slowly killing us

    Some would argue that the unions are part of the reason that there is a trillion dollars worth of work overseas instead of the USA. States were union labor is not forced usually have better economies than the states that force some employees to join a union.

    yeah, the american south has been doing really great these days

    fake edit: (No, it hasn't that was sarcastic)
    Here is a breakdown of right to work states

    400px-Right_to_work.svg.png

    Here is a breakdown of poverty levels in America

    350px-US_states_by_poverty_rate.svg.png


    Here is a breakdown of unemployment rates

    resized_econ_cal_june_2010.jpg


    Oh hey, look at all those unemployed and impoverished people in right to work states, someone should tell them that their state is doing better economically since they don't have unions!

    What interesting is the northern states in the central, that have right to work are thriving, and other states that do not have that are failing as well. Your graphs are inconsistent and only prove that individual states have their own enconomies and challenges. Your facts are incomplete and crude. New Jersey for example has a huge problem with public sector union, leaving us a with an easily exploitable pension fund under 40 Billion Dollars underfunded, and the incomes are scewed a little because the average public sector employee makes around $50,000 a year or so, with many more making a few hundred thousand a year. Not to mention they get to cash in unused sick and vacation time for huge pay days upon retirement, and up until very recently, had the ability to collect multiple pensions, with only having 1 full time job.

    There is also 1 trillion dollars of work overseas, because it is simply cheaper to outsource it. Part of that is because foreign countries are willing to do more for less, and another part is that US Labor Unions can be such a headache to work with, that companies would rather outsource rather than deal with the headache. The private unions have priced themselves out of the market, because the only thing they really knew how to do was strike. Thats like trying to just use a hammer to build a house.

    They tried to tax rich, but wind up losing revenue because they simply left the state, and now other states get the base tax revenue that NJ would get.

  • Options
    FireWaterFireWater Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote:
    If your employees have to work more than 50 hours a week. You did a poor job in project management. If you have your workers working more than 60 hours you are doing a shit job and are probably a horrible person. That being said, generally productivity is good till about 46 hours into the week. The difference in productivity between 40 and 46 is minimal. At 50 your people are still productive but there is a noticeable drop. After 60 hours and your looking at %40-%45 of their productivity before 40 hours, and there is a point after 70 hours where productivity is actually negative. I would love to cite source but for the life of me I can't find my organizational management book.

    The Eurozone is having problems for other reasons, sweet jobs are not it. I think the biggest problems, is they pay too much money without getting anything in return. Health care is about a third of expenses, but that is everywhere. Health care is expensive. The government is simply paying out too much and they are too afraid to cut programs. The US is doing the same thing, cutting benefits to workers and trying to trim costs because they lack the testicular fortitude to just cancel a program. You can only trim so much before you cut a program.

    Myself, my wife, and my brothers all work around 50+ a week. To make a general statement without even researching the field I think is ignorant. I know people hate millionaires nowadays, but most of them have to work for a living, and it is certainly more than the "inefficient" 60 hours a week.

    The euro zones borrow more than they can pay. Part of those sweet jobs were retirement packages that were simply unaffordable. Now the country has more DEFICIT than their GDP. Not debt. DEFICIT. The people continue to protest and riot. I fear those will get worse if they do not pass the austerity measures in order to get bailed out, as the state will not be able to pay for police protection. Protests have already gotten violent over there, with police. Imagine without them.

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    LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    you realize they're protesting because of the austerity measures, right?

    So

    once they pass, they will be angrier.

    Also, no one hates millionaires, poll after poll shows people have a favorable opinion of millionaires but a negative opinion of financial regulation and the financial market in general.

    So, you know, sweeping statements and all that.

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    FireWaterFireWater Registered User regular
    Quick to talk given your wikipedia graphs ;) I mean "wow"

    Did you even look at them before you posted?

    They are protesting the austerity measures sure. Once the state goes bankrupt and police and the army no longer getting paid, what will they do then?

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    LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    The point of the graphs shows that being right to work does nothing to ensure or protect jobs. Which they do show. There is no correlation between right to work and a higher job count. Not to mention that right to work states generally pay workers less.

    Greece isn't going to go broke, and you implicaton that the citizens would just go balls out crazy and rip each other to pieces is stupid.

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    LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    Also those graphs aren't from wikipedia except for the one showing which states are right to work, good use on quotations around the word wow, I felt like I was reading the chain mail my grandma sends me.

    Langly on
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    zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    FireWater wrote:
    zepherin wrote:
    If your employees have to work more than 50 hours a week. You did a poor job in project management. If you have your workers working more than 60 hours you are doing a shit job and are probably a horrible person. That being said, generally productivity is good till about 46 hours into the week. The difference in productivity between 40 and 46 is minimal. At 50 your people are still productive but there is a noticeable drop. After 60 hours and your looking at %40-%45 of their productivity before 40 hours, and there is a point after 70 hours where productivity is actually negative. I would love to cite source but for the life of me I can't find my organizational management book.
    Myself, my wife, and my brothers all work around 50+ a week. To make a general statement without even researching the field I think is ignorant. I know people hate millionaires nowadays, but most of them have to work for a living, and it is certainly more than the "inefficient" 60 hours a week.
    Then you should find out why you have to work so many hours. Is it because of poor division of labor? Inefficient work? Not enough people? Yes CEOs do work a lot of hours. And many of them refuse to delegate authority because only they can take care of a problem. And since there are always problems that need to be taken care of the cycle never really ends. If your that pressed for man power then you need to hire somebody. If that extra person is going to bankrupt the company then you need to adapt your business model.

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    FireWaterFireWater Registered User regular
    my wife and I work so many hours because we enjoy nice things. We like the fact that we can buy things when we want and not have outrageous debt. We're not bitter towards people that have more than us because we have enough. With that said, having more money never hurt anybody. We want the half million dollar house before my wife is 30 if possible. We want to drive luxury cars. We want to go on vacations multiple times a year and not worry about racking up debt to do so.

    Not everyone works for a large corporation. Many small business owners do well for themselves, but have to work massive hours to do so.

    Its 1000x better than being broke.

    As far as my implication, I'm basing it on other scenarios where there was no order. Like when the levies broke in New Orleans, and the cops quit. Fortunately that they had the feds to bail them out (unfortunately too late), and order is restored. Who will bail out Greece when they can't pay the bills?

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    zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    FireWater wrote:
    my wife and I work so many hours because we enjoy nice things. We like the fact that we can buy things when we want and not have outrageous debt. We're not bitter towards people that have more than us because we have enough. With that said, having more money never hurt anybody. We want the half million dollar house before my wife is 30 if possible. We want to drive luxury cars. We want to go on vacations multiple times a year and not worry about racking up debt to do so.

    Not everyone works for a large corporation. Many small business owners do well for themselves, but have to work massive hours to do so.
    But a lot of the time the owners don't actually have to work the massive hours. If the businesses is 2 people then it is difficult to get your hours under 50 just because of expected hours of operation and 60 is going to be normal, but actually still I've helped a couple friends I know who own businesses and cut down their working hours by changing their division of labor an hours. Generally companies that have 5 to 6 employees do it the worst because the owner/owners who started the company have that it comes down to us mentality, and so getting them to give up control is hard. "Your secretary is probably not going to fuck things up so bad you can't fix it the next day." Although I couldn't help my cousin. He kept losing his assistants to the armed forces. He lost 4 of them to joining the military. he would have lost the fifth but he was too dumb to enlist and the Army didn't want him.

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    FireWaterFireWater Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote:
    FireWater wrote:
    my wife and I work so many hours because we enjoy nice things. We like the fact that we can buy things when we want and not have outrageous debt. We're not bitter towards people that have more than us because we have enough. With that said, having more money never hurt anybody. We want the half million dollar house before my wife is 30 if possible. We want to drive luxury cars. We want to go on vacations multiple times a year and not worry about racking up debt to do so.

    Not everyone works for a large corporation. Many small business owners do well for themselves, but have to work massive hours to do so.
    But a lot of the time the owners don't actually have to work the massive hours. If the businesses is 2 people then it is difficult to get your hours under 50 just because of expected hours of operation and 60 is going to be normal, but actually still I've helped a couple friends I know who own businesses and cut down their working hours by changing their division of labor an hours. Generally companies that have 5 to 6 employees do it the worst because the owner/owners who started the company have that it comes down to us mentality, and so getting them to give up control is hard. "Your secretary is probably not going to fuck things up so bad you can't fix it the next day." Although I couldn't help my cousin. He kept losing his assistants to the armed forces. He lost 4 of them to joining the military. he would have lost the fifth but he was too dumb to enlist and the Army didn't want him.

    Wow man, just wow. What businesses are you talking about?

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    LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    FireWater wrote:
    my wife and I work so many hours because we enjoy nice things. We like the fact that we can buy things when we want and not have outrageous debt. We're not bitter towards people that have more than us because we have enough. With that said, having more money never hurt anybody. We want the half million dollar house before my wife is 30 if possible. We want to drive luxury cars. We want to go on vacations multiple times a year and not worry about racking up debt to do so.

    Not everyone works for a large corporation. Many small business owners do well for themselves, but have to work massive hours to do so.

    Its 1000x better than being broke.

    As far as my implication, I'm basing it on other scenarios where there was no order. Like when the levies broke in New Orleans, and the cops quit. Fortunately that they had the feds to bail them out (unfortunately too late), and order is restored. Who will bail out Greece when they can't pay the bills?

    The fucking eurozone, which is in the process of doing so right now?

    Katrina was a disaster, not an economic situation. God, I bet you masturbate at night to a picture of Ayn Rand.

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    FireWaterFireWater Registered User regular
    Oh I'm talking about American business, again we want nice things so we work hard for them. Katrina was a disaster, with poor but eventual support from the US Government. Greece is an economic disaster where they are on the verge of default because they spend more money than they make. If they cannot pay their police and army, there will be no order, and it will be worse than New Orleans because they do not have a federal government to bail them out (they ARE the federal government). Part of that is the sweet perks, salary and benefits package that they get as a result (public employees that is). Their own employees are contributing to the bankruptcy of their nation, and they still protest.

    Shit if I were in charge, I wouldn't bail them out until they made SIGNIFICANT changes to the way they do things, otherwise the problem will just repeat itself.

    I can see you are getting personal, a little frustrated. I have no idea who Ayn Rand is. I'm just someone who works hard for a living, and is married to someone who shares similar ideals/work ethic.

    When you can't win, insult!

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    zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    FireWater wrote:
    Wow man, just wow. What businesses are you talking about?
    Mom and pops cleaners downstairs. I had the husband show up 2 hours later and the wife get off 2 hours earlier on teus wed and thurs. My cousin runs a business handling pools and competitive swim gear, and his help kept enlisting, and one of my friends is a loan broker, and his business also acts as a realtor brokerage, offers appraisals and property management firm. I tried to get him to load some of his work onto his secretary, but he didn't. Oh well, most of this was just to pad out my MBA thesis, or is dissertation the more appropriate phrase.

    zepherin on
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    FireWaterFireWater Registered User regular
    The cleaners by me are run by two people 7 days a week....

    Both of the owners drive Lexus RX 350s Limiteds. Interesting.

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