Cops will be assholes even if the city asks them nicely to not be assholes. There are so many strong-arm tactics that police can use that don't involve actual violence. These videos are expressions of malice, spite, or perhaps mental illness. If the police want to fuck with your ability to act, they go after your freedom or your income. These cops just want to see someone grovel or scream.
In general most definitely, but the problem comes when people can put the screws to the cops by threatening budget cuts or loss of funds through donations. (Among many other options, I remember hearing how many cops now moonlight as security for banks as well.) It puts pressure on them to either take a stand against being extorted to do shady shit or do shady shit and try to cover it up. Considering they're used to being able to do the latter more often then not, it makes you start to see how things may have gotten out of hand.
-.-
No, people really can't 'put the screws to the cops by threatening budget cuts'. That's up to the municipal government (or, if it's the state police, it'll be up to the state government). And the average officer probably does not lie awake at night, haunted by the possibility that some teenagers at a university sit-in won't be attending the annual charity dinner.
There are police in specific cities that moonlight as security for various institutes - sometimes for benefits, sometimes to make a few extra dollars. Being a cop isn't the best paying job there is, but in most areas of the U.S. it provides a pretty damn good income. Cops taking on two jobs are not in the same situation as a single mom who's working two full time jobs just to try and cover her groceries & rent.
No you didn't, you informed everyone that the shitty cops are shitty. We know.
Maybe some people like to leave it at "Long cat is loooooong!" But I want to know WHY in fullest detail, that cat is so long, it intrigues me. Instead of telling me the cat is short, why not come up with a better explanation for what is happening? Might be more productive, and less rage-prone.
edit: And yes, by cat I mean cop, because I wanted to use a different metaphor this time.
If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"
Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
Maybe some people like to leave it at "Long cat is loooooong!" But I want to know WHY in fullest detail, that cat is so long, it intrigues me. Instead of telling me the cat is short, why not come up with a better explanation for what is happening? Might be more productive, and less rage-prone.
edit: And yes, by cat I mean cop, because I wanted to use a different metaphor this time.
Everybody knows why. You know why. No questions were asked. You gave excuses for the cops who were doing a shit job. Again, stop excusing them.
It was a joke, he said "Shitty cops are shitty" which I then turned into a wordplay based on meme of long cat ("Long cat is looooong!") as a metaphor for the cops in this case.
Everybody knows why. You know why. Why is so obvious I don't even have to say it! So I'm just going to be angry at you and tell you I never have to explain myself! No questions were asked. You gave excuses for the cops who were doing a shit job. Again, stop excusing them.
No questions were asked? I posed a series of problems I saw being possibly faced with the PD and explained why I thought they were problems. Such as being able to afford jailing, citations, etc. Nobody really answered those other than to say "Well they just shouldn't! even if it bankrupts them!" which ignores the reality of the situation.
Somebody has to pay for that shit, normally that same someone who has the ability to alter the PDs budget or is able to put pressure on someone who does in some fashion direct or indirect. I may have gotten some details wrong but you just seem to continue to be an angry angry Aardvark about it for some reason.
Let me guess, there are no explanations in your world, only excuses? If not then please tell me in very vivid detail what separates the two to you in a way that does not amount to "Someone doing something I seriously do not approve of."
If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"
Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
The reality of the situation is that jailing a couple of hundred students would not bankrupt the government. Even if it would it's not up to a police officer to say, "Well, too many people to arrest, better start brutalizing them." That is the reality that you are ignoring. Police do not have that kind of authority. No one does. It violates the American constitution, which prohibits "cruel and unusual punishment."
The reality of the situation is that jailing a couple of hundred students would not bankrupt the government. Even if it would it's not up to a police officer to say, "Well, too many people to arrest, better start brutalizing them." That is the reality that you are ignoring. Police do not have that kind of authority. No one does. It violates the American constitution, which prohibits "cruel and unusual punishment."
If the students keep coming back to the plaza, then you don't just throw them in jail for a night, that doesn't stop them from coming right back. What is your solution not just to remove the kids, but prevent them from reconvening?
Yes it violates the constitution, no they should not be doing it. But it's still a tough situation when you try to imagine looking at it from their perspective. That doesn't justify what they do but it does present a unique problem of which nobody has really provided a sufficient answer. The police have to permanently stop the protests, or rather the "Breach of peace" and they have a limited set of options to do this.
It's really if anything more of a reason for the cops to quit and join the protests. Because it exposes how the system is manipulating them into becoming mercenaries that protect the wealthy and their interests. It's a sad sad thing, and the problem is if you keep screaming at them that they're all just monsters and leave it at that (although I'm certain more than some are) you'll never accomplish anything other then patting yourself on the back for feeling angry and superior.
If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"
Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
The reality of the situation is that jailing a couple of hundred students would not bankrupt the government. Even if it would it's not up to a police officer to say, "Well, too many people to arrest, better start brutalizing them." That is the reality that you are ignoring. Police do not have that kind of authority. No one does. It violates the American constitution, which prohibits "cruel and unusual punishment."
If the students keep coming back to the plaza, then you don't just throw them in jail for a night, that doesn't stop them from coming right back. What is your solution not just to remove the kids, but prevent them from reconvening?
The flippancy with which you treat this mindset is quite disturbing. Police being indulged in thinking like this is nothing short of the end of rule of law.
It is explicitly not the role of police to hand out punishments. They are police, not Judge Dredd.
The reality of the situation is that jailing a couple of hundred students would not bankrupt the government. Even if it would it's not up to a police officer to say, "Well, too many people to arrest, better start brutalizing them." That is the reality that you are ignoring. Police do not have that kind of authority. No one does. It violates the American constitution, which prohibits "cruel and unusual punishment."
If the students keep coming back to the plaza, then you don't just throw them in jail for a night, that doesn't stop them from coming right back. What is your solution not just to remove the kids, but prevent them from reconvening?
Someone else who holds that responsibility. That is not a police officer's job.
Earlier in the thread ED was saying, to paraphrase, "Police would have looked bad dragging people away so you might as well mace them", and half of that statement was right. The Victoria Police got a lot of criticism from the public for evicting Occupy Melbourne in exactly that manner.
A couple of people in the video you can see have been pepper sprayed. In other words, it wasn't dispensed indiscriminately on passive protesters. I wonder what Vic Pol's critics would say if they watched the UCD video. Maybe they'd realize that simply arresting people does not constitute police brutality.
The flippancy with which you treat this mindset is quite disturbing. Police being indulged in thinking like this is nothing short of the end of rule of law.
It is explicitly not the role of police to hand out punishments. They are police, not Judge Dredd.
By Jove I think you're onto something with that there!
But more to the point there's the issue of what do you do when it's a choice between upholding the law or being unable to fund yourself? I mean in a normal person's mind you obviously would understand the people are protesting and being disobedient for a specific reason and that there must be a serious problem to cause this.
But in an insular Us Vs them Machismo culture? Where you used to be able to get away with almost anything bad you did? It creates a gap of thinking, and empathizing that causes a different thought process. I'm not indulging it so much as attempting to expose it. If you merely confront someone they will get defensive and double down on their own rhetoric.
We've seen enough Republican vs Democrat debates to know that. Even if the facts are on your side and you hammer those down in a confrontational way it will just make the other person believe harder in whatever it was they were believing in. Hell we've got scientific studies which prove this. That maybe means another approach is necessary to stop the kinds of thinking that leads to this severely messed up situation?
Best way to do that is to understand the hows and whys behind it.
Someone else who holds that responsibility. That is not a police officer's job.
Well maybe the pressure is coming from whoever allocates the budgets? I can't say entirely where I'm sure it comes from overall but every time we hear a whistle blower talk about what goes on at various PDs there's always this sort of shockingly robotic approach to their job and the outside world. They have quotas, demanding superiors and often are put under various forms of direct and indirect pressure to "do their job" in certain ways.
It suggests that someone is certainly in a number of cities putting some level of screws to their departments that have conditioned them into following this sort of behavior pattern. This doesn't just happen in a day.
If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"
Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
Earlier in the thread ED was saying, to paraphrase, "Police would have looked bad dragging people away so you might as well mace them", and half of that statement was right. The Victoria Police got a lot of criticism from the public for evicting Occupy Melbourne in exactly that manner.
A couple of people in the video you can see have been pepper sprayed. In other words, it wasn't dispensed indiscriminately on passive protesters. I wonder what Vic Pol's critics would say if they watched the UCD video. Maybe they'd realize that simply arresting people does not constitute police brutality.
Occupy just doesn't make much sense in Australia IMO. We've got conservative talk show people raging against coal seam gas fracking, so, shit's pretty different down here.
None of that matters because in cases when the police have used the tried-and-true tactic of arresting people when they break the law, it has worked.
Yes, and with nearing 4,000 occupy arrests it has apparently been such a winning strategy for stopping the civil disobedience now occurring internationally. ;p
Arresting and charging someone works when there's a social framework that will support and reinforce that as good/normal. In cases of mass nonviolent civil disobedience? I don't really think the same can be said when you consider how many people have just been "thrown in jail" and came right back out the next day. Not even confiscating stuff seems to work because donations are coming in so fast that people can just buy new tents and other things in some cases after they get out as well.
There's no real way for the police to offer any kind of a disincentive to keep them from immediately re-committing a "crime." And when those same sorts of "crime" numbers are measured as part of their job performance it creates incentives for them to "do something" at some level, about it.
If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"
Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
If regular police action is ineffective, then the "Problem" has gone beyond the ability of police to deal with. This means you have to pass the buck to the people in charge of the police: the politicans. You don't start breaking the law yourself and you don't escalate the conflict because that is only going to make the situation worse.
When large number of your citizens are protesting and engaging in civil disobedience, politicans should try to find out why and adress their concerns. If enough people refuse to be detered by repeated arrests and citations because they are angry about something, then that issue is important.
You don't tell the police to beat the hippies harder. At least not in a democracy.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
Edit- I fucked up my post really badly. I agree with Fallout, he isn't justifying police action, merely explaining the worldview that allows them to behave this way.
hadoken on
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
Wow, that's the end of the line for her. She's done.
Yeah, you don't recover from that much negative public sentiment, assuming of course that the mob lining her walk to her car is representative.
This will be put forth as the kids turning violent and trying to intimidate people no doubt, but crap on a cracker does it send a strong message.
Run you pigeons, it's Robert Frost!
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
Just that shell-shocked look on her face...
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
The students at UC Davis are some of the most dedicated, effective protesters we've seen in the last two months. Even after getting pepper-sprayed, they held their ground. They forced a group of cops off their campus peacefully. And holy shit, that video is powerful.
The students at UC Davis are some of the most dedicated, effective protesters we've seen in the last two months. Even after getting pepper-sprayed, they held their ground. They forced a group of cops off their campus peacefully. And holy shit, that video is powerful.
I expect her resignation by Monday.
She's said she doesn't intend to resign, according to the huffington post.
The students at UC Davis are some of the most dedicated, effective protesters we've seen in the last two months. Even after getting pepper-sprayed, they held their ground. They forced a group of cops off their campus peacefully. And holy shit, that video is powerful.
I expect her resignation by Monday.
She's said she doesn't intend to resign, according to the huffington post.
That is what everyone says shortly before they do though.
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited November 2011
I don't see how she could expect to stay at her position given that she has faculty leading the movement for her resignation.
Fox News tries to discredit OWS by focusing on a person piece.
They have no idea how hard those jobs are. Being a teacher isn't about reciting a text-book, its about imparting a curiculum in a way so that a bunch of kids can remember it. You have to be on the watch for learning disabilities, maintain disipline without violence and tailor the lesson to every class. Becoming a teacher is easy, being a good teacher is stone ass hard.
As for landscaping.... Good luck with 8 hours of hard physical labour. Its not like going to the gym every day, its much harder.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
I'm sure workers around the world are quivering at the thought of people who spend 15 hours a day at a computer watching numbers and putting off going to pee being unleashed upon the world to take their jobs.
We can only take solace in the fact that the wall street employees will themselves be displaced by hardcore raiders once blizzard finally shuts down WOW.
Between the lobbying group to discredit the movement and this, does it mean they're getting scared? I think so.
The response needs to be that younger, more giving and more competent Americans replacing them will be the scenario.
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
I'm not sure what fantasy land that guy lives in, but using, "I worked on Wall Street!" as his selling point in no way qualifies him to do any of the other jobs he said he would "take."
Actually, this might be the first time someone has explicitly said they are going to take a job from someone else, though we've heard immigrants do it all the time.
New Democratic platform: Ex-Wall Street employees are taking our jobs!
I'm sure workers around the world are quivering at the thought of people who spend 15 hours a day at a computer watching numbers and putting off going to pee being unleashed upon the world to take their jobs.
We can only take solace in the fact that the wall street employees will themselves be displaced by hardcore raiders once blizzard finally shuts down WOW.
Shit, that will create problems for Wall Street. Organizational skills? Type A personalities? Some grasp of statistics, able to deal with changing situations, working as a team while maximizing your own gains, greed, looking down on everyone else... hardcore raiders have the exact skillset to work on wall street.
Obviously this doesn't apply to every hardcore raider, but I'm sure the ones who just get by on the work of others will find a spot, too.
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Wait, did this Peter Dutro person really stay in that fancy hotel?
it's Fox News.
Expect the whole thing to be a lie until it's shown to be otherwise.
Pretty much, they have proven themselves multiple times in the past to be untrustworthy on a multitude of topics. I don't even understand how they are allowed to still be on the air at this point, much less practically running the show.
They are about as newsworthy a source as The North Korean Central News Agency at this point.
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Didn't Canada tell Fox they couldn't air themselves as a news network? Maybe it was another country, but I remember reading a story about how their bid to set up a news agency was rejected due to poor journalistic standards.
Posts
No you didn't, you informed everyone that the shitty cops are shitty. We know.
-.-
No, people really can't 'put the screws to the cops by threatening budget cuts'. That's up to the municipal government (or, if it's the state police, it'll be up to the state government). And the average officer probably does not lie awake at night, haunted by the possibility that some teenagers at a university sit-in won't be attending the annual charity dinner.
There are police in specific cities that moonlight as security for various institutes - sometimes for benefits, sometimes to make a few extra dollars. Being a cop isn't the best paying job there is, but in most areas of the U.S. it provides a pretty damn good income. Cops taking on two jobs are not in the same situation as a single mom who's working two full time jobs just to try and cover her groceries & rent.
Maybe some people like to leave it at "Long cat is loooooong!" But I want to know WHY in fullest detail, that cat is so long, it intrigues me. Instead of telling me the cat is short, why not come up with a better explanation for what is happening? Might be more productive, and less rage-prone.
edit: And yes, by cat I mean cop, because I wanted to use a different metaphor this time.
Everybody knows why. You know why. No questions were asked. You gave excuses for the cops who were doing a shit job. Again, stop excusing them.
No questions were asked? I posed a series of problems I saw being possibly faced with the PD and explained why I thought they were problems. Such as being able to afford jailing, citations, etc. Nobody really answered those other than to say "Well they just shouldn't! even if it bankrupts them!" which ignores the reality of the situation.
Somebody has to pay for that shit, normally that same someone who has the ability to alter the PDs budget or is able to put pressure on someone who does in some fashion direct or indirect. I may have gotten some details wrong but you just seem to continue to be an angry angry Aardvark about it for some reason.
Let me guess, there are no explanations in your world, only excuses? If not then please tell me in very vivid detail what separates the two to you in a way that does not amount to "Someone doing something I seriously do not approve of."
If the students keep coming back to the plaza, then you don't just throw them in jail for a night, that doesn't stop them from coming right back. What is your solution not just to remove the kids, but prevent them from reconvening?
Yes it violates the constitution, no they should not be doing it. But it's still a tough situation when you try to imagine looking at it from their perspective. That doesn't justify what they do but it does present a unique problem of which nobody has really provided a sufficient answer. The police have to permanently stop the protests, or rather the "Breach of peace" and they have a limited set of options to do this.
It's really if anything more of a reason for the cops to quit and join the protests. Because it exposes how the system is manipulating them into becoming mercenaries that protect the wealthy and their interests. It's a sad sad thing, and the problem is if you keep screaming at them that they're all just monsters and leave it at that (although I'm certain more than some are) you'll never accomplish anything other then patting yourself on the back for feeling angry and superior.
Not very productive, no?
The flippancy with which you treat this mindset is quite disturbing. Police being indulged in thinking like this is nothing short of the end of rule of law.
It is explicitly not the role of police to hand out punishments. They are police, not Judge Dredd.
Someone else who holds that responsibility. That is not a police officer's job.
A couple of people in the video you can see have been pepper sprayed. In other words, it wasn't dispensed indiscriminately on passive protesters. I wonder what Vic Pol's critics would say if they watched the UCD video. Maybe they'd realize that simply arresting people does not constitute police brutality.
By Jove I think you're onto something with that there!
But more to the point there's the issue of what do you do when it's a choice between upholding the law or being unable to fund yourself? I mean in a normal person's mind you obviously would understand the people are protesting and being disobedient for a specific reason and that there must be a serious problem to cause this.
But in an insular Us Vs them Machismo culture? Where you used to be able to get away with almost anything bad you did? It creates a gap of thinking, and empathizing that causes a different thought process. I'm not indulging it so much as attempting to expose it. If you merely confront someone they will get defensive and double down on their own rhetoric.
We've seen enough Republican vs Democrat debates to know that. Even if the facts are on your side and you hammer those down in a confrontational way it will just make the other person believe harder in whatever it was they were believing in. Hell we've got scientific studies which prove this. That maybe means another approach is necessary to stop the kinds of thinking that leads to this severely messed up situation?
Best way to do that is to understand the hows and whys behind it.
Well maybe the pressure is coming from whoever allocates the budgets? I can't say entirely where I'm sure it comes from overall but every time we hear a whistle blower talk about what goes on at various PDs there's always this sort of shockingly robotic approach to their job and the outside world. They have quotas, demanding superiors and often are put under various forms of direct and indirect pressure to "do their job" in certain ways.
It suggests that someone is certainly in a number of cities putting some level of screws to their departments that have conditioned them into following this sort of behavior pattern. This doesn't just happen in a day.
Occupy just doesn't make much sense in Australia IMO. We've got conservative talk show people raging against coal seam gas fracking, so, shit's pretty different down here.
Yes, and with nearing 4,000 occupy arrests it has apparently been such a winning strategy for stopping the civil disobedience now occurring internationally. ;p
Arresting and charging someone works when there's a social framework that will support and reinforce that as good/normal. In cases of mass nonviolent civil disobedience? I don't really think the same can be said when you consider how many people have just been "thrown in jail" and came right back out the next day. Not even confiscating stuff seems to work because donations are coming in so fast that people can just buy new tents and other things in some cases after they get out as well.
There's no real way for the police to offer any kind of a disincentive to keep them from immediately re-committing a "crime." And when those same sorts of "crime" numbers are measured as part of their job performance it creates incentives for them to "do something" at some level, about it.
When large number of your citizens are protesting and engaging in civil disobedience, politicans should try to find out why and adress their concerns. If enough people refuse to be detered by repeated arrests and citations because they are angry about something, then that issue is important.
You don't tell the police to beat the hippies harder. At least not in a democracy.
Those kids, they're doing it right.
Holy crap they're doing it right.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45374977/ns/us_news-life/#.Tsjzp1ZQDPo
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
Wow, that's the end of the line for her. She's done.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
This will be put forth as the kids turning violent and trying to intimidate people no doubt, but crap on a cracker does it send a strong message.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
I expect her resignation by Monday.
That is what everyone says shortly before they do though.
Fox News tries to discredit OWS by focusing on a person piece.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/20/occupy-wall-street-leader-reportedly-pitches-golden-tent-at-5-star-hotel/
Wall Street to Protesters: Take Us Down and You're Coming with Us
http://www.newenglandpost.com/2011/11/20/wall-streets-message-occupy-movement-coming-cushy-jobs/
Between the lobbying group to discredit the movement and this, does it mean they're getting scared? I think so.
They have no idea how hard those jobs are. Being a teacher isn't about reciting a text-book, its about imparting a curiculum in a way so that a bunch of kids can remember it. You have to be on the watch for learning disabilities, maintain disipline without violence and tailor the lesson to every class. Becoming a teacher is easy, being a good teacher is stone ass hard.
As for landscaping.... Good luck with 8 hours of hard physical labour. Its not like going to the gym every day, its much harder.
We can only take solace in the fact that the wall street employees will themselves be displaced by hardcore raiders once blizzard finally shuts down WOW.
The response needs to be that younger, more giving and more competent Americans replacing them will be the scenario.
Actually, this might be the first time someone has explicitly said they are going to take a job from someone else, though we've heard immigrants do it all the time.
New Democratic platform: Ex-Wall Street employees are taking our jobs!
Wait, did this Peter Dutro person really stay in that fancy hotel?
Shit, that will create problems for Wall Street. Organizational skills? Type A personalities? Some grasp of statistics, able to deal with changing situations, working as a team while maximizing your own gains, greed, looking down on everyone else... hardcore raiders have the exact skillset to work on wall street.
Obviously this doesn't apply to every hardcore raider, but I'm sure the ones who just get by on the work of others will find a spot, too.
It would seem so.
it's Fox News.
Expect the whole thing to be a lie until it's shown to be otherwise.
HRM. GEE WHIZ.
ITS ALMOST AS if THEY'RE NOT ARGUING IN GOOD FAITH, GUYS.
Pretty much, they have proven themselves multiple times in the past to be untrustworthy on a multitude of topics. I don't even understand how they are allowed to still be on the air at this point, much less practically running the show.
They are about as newsworthy a source as The North Korean Central News Agency at this point.