Fuck mr bitter and every zerg that complains about the nerfed archon toilet.
You want zergs to auto win every late game? Is that fair?
Fuck every protoss that complains about archon toilet not needing a nerf.
You want entire armies to disappear in 1 second? Is that fair?
Ghost-mech terran on at least the tournament maps is basically unbeatable. VR/Colossus is still ridiculously fucking strong, and that's mothership-less.
Just because a race can auto-win in certain circumstances doesn't make it imbalanced or unfair, as long as the other race has a decent chance before that.
Of course, I agree with everyone in saying that infestor/broodlord (especially with roach/queen etc.) is fucking retarded strong, and the archon toilet is a necessary evil as a reaction. But Infestor/brood is way weaker because of NP as thebog mentioned. And yeah, maybe it's still strong as fuck, but having such a dumb looking mechanic in the game is just so, so stupid. It makes the game balanced around a single unit and it's spell. It's pretty much the anti-thesis of what SC should feel like. It takes away so much from the game in terms of econ management, army management, and so on.
Sure, nerfing infestor/brood is hard and will fuck with ZvT balance, but having a literal hero unit in SC feels dumb as hell.
It is disappointing that a whole game's build up comes down to one action going in one or the other side's favor and that there's basically no way to recover once it's happened.
Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited January 2012
I accidentally dropped a word there. I meant "at least half". Ghost-mech on some maps is legitly broken. Sure, that's map architecture, but look at Shak. Antiga. etc. etc. Terran favored maps are unwinnable (not literally, but you know what I mean) late game because of ghost-mech.
VR/Colo is not that much more late-game than archon toilet spam. In both lategame PvZs in this series, JYP could have afforded VR/Colo. It's just that going mothership is more effective.
Yeah, I pretty much also agree with Sceptre and Cruciality and such when I express my hate for archon toilet. And this ties back in with what I posted last page. ZvP feels really fucking dumb sometimes on both sides.
Euphemon on
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
I don't believe that army composition even exists. Show me a replay of a pro game where the terran goes ghost-mech.
I can show you VoDs, but not replays. Check any late-game TvZ recently. Ghost-tank by MVP on Shak. Ghost-tank by MVP on Metal a while back. Those two are the ones that are most vivid, but there is no way you can deny the power of ghost late game right now. Coupled with a good map for tanks, and lategame is extremely fucking difficult to win. At least as difficult as it would be to play against infestor/brood.
I don't believe that army composition even exists. Show me a replay of a pro game where the terran goes ghost-mech.
I can show you VoDs, but not replays. Check any late-game TvZ recently. Ghost-tank by MVP on Shak. Ghost-tank by MVP on Metal a while back. Those two are the ones that are most vivid, but there is no way you can deny the power of ghost late game right now. Coupled with a good map for tanks, and lategame is extremely fucking difficult to win. At least as difficult as it would be to play against infestor/brood.
this may be why it seemed so strong
also terran doesn't really have a lot going on late-game, letting the terran get to that split-map mech position without significantly harrassing or stopping is a mistake in of itself
Ghost Mech is Tank/Thor/Viking/Ghost plus whatever Marines and Medivacs you have leftover from earlier. Mvp usually ends up going it when his TvZs go late.
Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited January 2012
Yeah, that's why I added the qualifier at the end. But Thorzain had a game recently where he basically won off ghosts. It's not like there's really a rarity.
Game 1 on TDA in Leenock vs Jjakji as well. I can keep looking, but really, come on. You've seen fucking ghosts and tanks. Everyone has at this point. And on maps that are terran favored, it is some serious bs. Not saying it's imbalanced, because usually the zerg could have beaten it by engaging perfectly or hitting a timing, but if it gets built up, like infestor/brood, it's really fucking ridiculous.
Good fight by Dimaga. He's so frustratingly passive ZvP. Won him game 1, but...
That always seems one-sided at the highest pro level because guys like MVP are so good at controlling ghosts and keeping them alive. For the rest of us, that's not broken at all.
Also, what it turns into is a starring contest. Ghost-tank is terrible at attacking into an army with brood lords and infestors, and it goes vice versa also. Where Terran gets the edge is in the ability to drop 3-3 marines around the map as this stalemate is happening.
man that was a great series, and pretty much the best casters (nah i'm just kidding it was all grubby) for it
homestory cup, especially in zvt, has been showing me how good infestors really are
reeeeaallly need to make a lot more in them in my late-game comp.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited January 2012
Yeah, I'm obviously not talking about guys like us. I'm talking about on the pro level, spectating games. It's just as dumb watching a Terran break anything and everything a Zerg throws at them with pewpewpewpewpew sounds as it is watching infestor/brood shit on protoss.
But watching a 20+ minute game boil down into how one unit can be used and abused. That is fucking dumb. Really, really dumb. Way dumber than anything else currently in the game.
@Biosys Yup, I agree. Amazing ZvP series, the best I've seen for ages. And Grubby. Fuck yeah Grubby. Maybe not that most high level play, but lategame ZvP is so rare I'll take what I can get.
I the issue of ZvP is that Zerg can sustain for quite a while with low-gas units, and build up a bank of gas to have its late-game comp build faster. Protoss pretty much have to make sentries against heavy roach, and that eats away all Protoss early game gas.
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TannerMS "I'm confidence cause I'm zerg!"Registered Userregular
I the issue of ZvP is that Zerg can sustain for quite a while with low-gas units, and build up a bank of gas to have its late-game comp build faster. Protoss pretty much have to make sentries against heavy roach, and that eats away all Protoss early game gas.
This doesn't make any sense.
Nobody makes more than 6 sentries with any opening and that's after they've got some other tech coming
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
I don't believe that army composition even exists. Show me a replay of a pro game where the terran goes ghost-mech.
I can show you VoDs, but not replays. Check any late-game TvZ recently. Ghost-tank by MVP on Shak. Ghost-tank by MVP on Metal a while back. Those two are the ones that are most vivid, but there is no way you can deny the power of ghost late game right now. Coupled with a good map for tanks, and lategame is extremely fucking difficult to win. At least as difficult as it would be to play against infestor/brood.
also terran doesn't really have a lot going on late-game, letting the terran get to that split-map mech position without significantly harrassing or stopping is a mistake in of itself
Yeah, that's my point. Just because a composition (ghost-mech, infestor/brood, fast-upgraded zealarchon pvt, mothership+archon+gateway pvz) is excessively strong at certain periods in the game, doesn't mean that the game is unfair like Rofflor seems to be implying. It's only unfair if they can consistently get there without the other race having a fair chance at ending it. There are very few (if not none) situations in SC now where it was impossible to win despite having played close to perfectly.
That was my problem with Rofflor's post. I hate the concept of a hero unit in SC, but that aside, there is a school of thought that a race should always have a fair chance at every point in the game, and that school of thought is poison. Protoss can still do so much to prevent infestor/brood that even if protoss really lost 100% lategame, PvZ played very well almost never reaches lategame anyway. Yes, protoss would probably lose more games, but not because it was OOOO SUPER IMBA, but because protoss will need to learn how to exploit timings and harass to prevent infestor/brood from ever being made.
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mr bitter channeling his inner dhal
You want zergs to auto win every late game? Is that fair?
Fuck mr rofflor and every protoss that complains about infestor broodlord.
You want Terran and Protoss to auto win every late game? Is that fair?
and yeah the archon toilet does that to games, a really exciting game and then just one key press and it's instantly over
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
vanilla is weird
Fuck every protoss that complains about archon toilet not needing a nerf.
You want entire armies to disappear in 1 second? Is that fair?
Ghost-mech terran on at least the tournament maps is basically unbeatable. VR/Colossus is still ridiculously fucking strong, and that's mothership-less.
Just because a race can auto-win in certain circumstances doesn't make it imbalanced or unfair, as long as the other race has a decent chance before that.
Of course, I agree with everyone in saying that infestor/broodlord (especially with roach/queen etc.) is fucking retarded strong, and the archon toilet is a necessary evil as a reaction. But Infestor/brood is way weaker because of NP as thebog mentioned. And yeah, maybe it's still strong as fuck, but having such a dumb looking mechanic in the game is just so, so stupid. It makes the game balanced around a single unit and it's spell. It's pretty much the anti-thesis of what SC should feel like. It takes away so much from the game in terms of econ management, army management, and so on.
Sure, nerfing infestor/brood is hard and will fuck with ZvT balance, but having a literal hero unit in SC feels dumb as hell.
yeah i don't wanna start an argument or anything just that god damn it is dumb that late-game zvp works out as it does
Come on, man.
VR/Colo is not that much more late-game than archon toilet spam. In both lategame PvZs in this series, JYP could have afforded VR/Colo. It's just that going mothership is more effective.
Yeah, I pretty much also agree with Sceptre and Cruciality and such when I express my hate for archon toilet. And this ties back in with what I posted last page. ZvP feels really fucking dumb sometimes on both sides.
i pick my strategies based entirely on the sexual orientation of them too
Gay cheese eh? Is that really happy cheese?
Also, play to win. Complaining about cheese is dumb. They are competing for money, playing "nicely" to each other would be really stupid.
because that was terrible
let us instead focus on this incredibly straight nydus attempts from dimaga
I can show you VoDs, but not replays. Check any late-game TvZ recently. Ghost-tank by MVP on Shak. Ghost-tank by MVP on Metal a while back. Those two are the ones that are most vivid, but there is no way you can deny the power of ghost late game right now. Coupled with a good map for tanks, and lategame is extremely fucking difficult to win. At least as difficult as it would be to play against infestor/brood.
this may be why it seemed so strong
also terran doesn't really have a lot going on late-game, letting the terran get to that split-map mech position without significantly harrassing or stopping is a mistake in of itself
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
Game 1 on TDA in Leenock vs Jjakji as well. I can keep looking, but really, come on. You've seen fucking ghosts and tanks. Everyone has at this point. And on maps that are terran favored, it is some serious bs. Not saying it's imbalanced, because usually the zerg could have beaten it by engaging perfectly or hitting a timing, but if it gets built up, like infestor/brood, it's really fucking ridiculous.
Good fight by Dimaga. He's so frustratingly passive ZvP. Won him game 1, but...
That always seems one-sided at the highest pro level because guys like MVP are so good at controlling ghosts and keeping them alive. For the rest of us, that's not broken at all.
Also, what it turns into is a starring contest. Ghost-tank is terrible at attacking into an army with brood lords and infestors, and it goes vice versa also. Where Terran gets the edge is in the ability to drop 3-3 marines around the map as this stalemate is happening.
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
homestory cup, especially in zvt, has been showing me how good infestors really are
reeeeaallly need to make a lot more in them in my late-game comp.
But watching a 20+ minute game boil down into how one unit can be used and abused. That is fucking dumb. Really, really dumb. Way dumber than anything else currently in the game.
@Biosys Yup, I agree. Amazing ZvP series, the best I've seen for ages. And Grubby. Fuck yeah Grubby. Maybe not that most high level play, but lategame ZvP is so rare I'll take what I can get.
This doesn't make any sense.
Nobody makes more than 6 sentries with any opening and that's after they've got some other tech coming
Yeah, that's my point. Just because a composition (ghost-mech, infestor/brood, fast-upgraded zealarchon pvt, mothership+archon+gateway pvz) is excessively strong at certain periods in the game, doesn't mean that the game is unfair like Rofflor seems to be implying. It's only unfair if they can consistently get there without the other race having a fair chance at ending it. There are very few (if not none) situations in SC now where it was impossible to win despite having played close to perfectly.
That was my problem with Rofflor's post. I hate the concept of a hero unit in SC, but that aside, there is a school of thought that a race should always have a fair chance at every point in the game, and that school of thought is poison. Protoss can still do so much to prevent infestor/brood that even if protoss really lost 100% lategame, PvZ played very well almost never reaches lategame anyway. Yes, protoss would probably lose more games, but not because it was OOOO SUPER IMBA, but because protoss will need to learn how to exploit timings and harass to prevent infestor/brood from ever being made.
T.T
edit: but yeah certain parts of it are kinda bad