Man who recommends The Princess Bride and Pan's Labyrinth in the same breath
Pan's Labyrinth, while having some great qualities as a film, is a terrible movie; it punches you in the gut, takes your lunch money, and runs away with it laughing.
Man who recommends The Princess Bride and Pan's Labyrinth in the same breath
Pan's Labyrinth, while having some great qualities as a film, is a terrible movie
i'm pretty sure i agree with what you're saying here, but this sentence doesn't mean anything
I mean its technical aspects vs story/entertainment value.
As a film, it makes some interesting decisions in execution that exemplify it as a work of art.
As a movie, a story to be told, it's an awful, depressing tale of a girl who is in a cruel and abusive household and only manages to find relief in her own death. Ophelia is kind and only looks to help people who are suffering or otherwise ask for her aid, and ultimately is killed for her choices, leaving everyone around her broken while she supposedly somehow wins by becoming princess of the underworld and ruling there with a kind and just heart. But this is delivered only in narrative overtones in the last 5 minutes of the movie, so it feels empty (not to mention the cognitive weight of having to accept that this underworld both exists and is a less-than-terrible place to be, having just learned of its existence only some 10-15 minutes ago).
There's not even any poetic justice in her death. She simply dies, and the antagonist is otherwise ruined by external forces that are completely unrelated to his actions against Ophelia. The movie takes you on an adventure with this girl, gets you to care about her, and then leaves her for dead with no recourse. And then tries to make it better by saying "But she totally won in the afterlife."
Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
edited December 2011
nullzone, first have you ever read a fairy tale, and second i completely disagree with you that all that information was only delivered in the last five minutes, or 15, when it was pretty clearly explained much earlier when the stakes were first set up in the beginning
e: and to judge the movie based on a lack of poetic justice is a little silly, given that it's not a requirement that movies have such a thing
Also, I have a book of Russian fairy tales, oh man are they ever dark (and way darker than most of the original Grimm's). Totally reading those to my kid.
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Quoththe RavenMiami, FL FOR REALRegistered Userregular
i mean, the original little mermaid had her walking around feeling like her feet were being cut by knives, and then she dies
what the hell kind of ending did you want from a movie that blurs the line between fantasy and reality in an extremely dark time in spain's history
nullzone, first have you ever read a fairy tale, and second i completely disagree with you that all that information was only delivered in the last five minutes, or 15, when it was pretty clearly explained much earlier when the stakes were first set up in the beginning
e: and to judge the movie based on a lack of poetic justice is a little silly, given that it's not a requirement that movies have such a thing
Sure, I know plenty of fairy tales are tragic and use that tragedy to teach a lesson; this had no such lesson, other than a dramatization of Wheaton's Law.
If you want to call that a lesson, then I guess it succeeds? But since the movie has already set you into the trope of good vs evil there's no clear message that isn't already fundamentally ingrained into the viewer.
For reals, the best and most resonant fairytales have to have a bit of darkness and tragedy just waiting in the corner of your eyes. It's why I love pans labyrinth so.
Side note on magical realism: My dream movie is Cary fukunaga doing an adaptation of Carlos Luis zafon's shadow of the wind
Because without one the viewer inevitably feels sucker punched.
Fairy tales are whimsical and invoke certain emotions for it, and then pull on those emotions with the tragedy of the tale, which either emphasizes the lesson to be had, or provides a vehicle on which to deliver the true conclusion of the story to its viewer.
You want a good example of a fairy tale movie that still leans on tragedy? Watch Finding Neverland.
I really want to go and read some proper, dark fairytales. Hell, I'd love to put together some ideas for fairytales for adults, as a kind of collection of bedtime stories.
Man, I personally liked finding never land but it was coldly calculated to draw out tears and sadness and just felt so cheesy at times, similar to the notebook. It always makes me wary when a movie does that. And yet, I still love it
Man, I personally liked finding never land but it was coldly calculated to draw out tears and sadness and just felt so cheesy at times, similar to the notebook. It always makes me wary when a movie does that. And yet, I still love it
I loved it too, and while it may have a few moments of being like "quick, everybody look sad for the camera!" I think it did a good job of turning the tragedy into something worth thinking about.
For reals, the best and most resonant fairytales have to have a bit of darkness and tragedy just waiting in the corner of your eyes. It's why I love pans labyrinth so.
Side note on magical realism: My dream movie is Cary fukunaga doing an adaptation of Carlos Luis zafon's shadow of the wind
Did you read the sequel (well, prequel) to Shadow of the Wind?
It wasn't nearly so good but man he writes amazing dialogue.
For reals, the best and most resonant fairytales have to have a bit of darkness and tragedy just waiting in the corner of your eyes. It's why I love pans labyrinth so.
Side note on magical realism: My dream movie is Cary fukunaga doing an adaptation of Carlos Luis zafon's shadow of the wind
Did you read the sequel (well, prequel) to Shadow of the Wind?
It wasn't nearly so good but man he writes amazing dialogue.
Yes! I dug it, though like you, not as much as shadow of the wind! Anxiously waiting for te third, prisoner of heaven to be translated!
Also have you checked out any of John connolly's non-mystery books, starting with book of lost things? Just picked up the internals recently and I loved his first two books of the series! Definitely in the same vein of humor/fantasy/awesomeness
Man who recommends The Princess Bride and Pan's Labyrinth in the same breath
Pan's Labyrinth, while having some great qualities as a film, is a terrible movie; it punches you in the gut, takes your lunch money, and runs away with it laughing.
Man who recommends The Princess Bride and Pan's Labyrinth in the same breath
Pan's Labyrinth, while having some great qualities as a film, is a terrible movie; it punches you in the gut, takes your lunch money, and runs away with it laughing.
This is
A stupid opinion
Honestly, I'd love to hear counterpoints because nobody I've ever talked to about this has ever been able to point out what made the movie good. They could only shrug their shoulders and say they liked it.
That's fine, plenty of diverse opinions out there, but I'd really like to be able to get inside the head of someone who enjoyed it so I could understand what the fuck.
it's been too long since i've seen it for me to go through it point by point
but you are basically arguing that a story cannot be both depressing and good
which is absurd
No, I'm saying that the story completely unravels its own worth by turning 100 minutes of a compelling character and her ordeals into a worthless pile of junk by killing her off in the story's final moments.
The Pursuit of Happyness is depressing and good, because the writers used the depressing aspects to allow something to flourish in their wake; this is not afforded that opportunity and suffers for it. If they wanted to kill her character to make a point or compel the audience, it needed to be done earlier so the rest of the time could be devoted to observing the impact that her life ultimately had on those around her.
The ending is set-up - the entire point of her quest is she is trying to return home. Also the ending is not too bleak - on account of it's a movie about war.
Because without one the viewer inevitably feels sucker punched.
Fairy tales are whimsical and invoke certain emotions for it, and then pull on those emotions with the tragedy of the tale, which either emphasizes the lesson to be had, or provides a vehicle on which to deliver the true reward of the story to its viewer.
You want a good example of a fairy tale movie that still leans on tragedy? Watch Finding Neverland.
if you think fairy tales are whimsical, i invite you to read more of them
I think that the things that make the movie good are things that you either do not like or would argue are not there, given what you've said so far
It's a movie that creates a fairy tale world into which a young girl escapes because her own reality is worse than even the darkest fairy tale, namely because there is often at least the hope of escape/redemption/whatever when playing by the rules
In the snow queen, for example, the girl saves her friend because she is a good person and perseveres through hardship
This girl can't really win if you assume her quest is a delusion, and so the film is a tragedy with a pyrrhic victory given what happens to the villain and to her and her brother
It's also obviously a commentary on the time, which was surreal in its own way and I thought well illustrated
Right, which predisposes you to watching this girl's horrid life and thinking that there's some greater purpose at work, or that she is given justice despite her death -- neither of which proves to be true by the time the beginning and end meet.
@Quoth The commentary on the time is part of why I respect it as a film, I just dislike it as a narrative work (particularly when it gets pitched as a "real-life fairy tale").
it's been too long since i've seen it for me to go through it point by point
but you are basically arguing that a story cannot be both depressing and good
which is absurd
No, I'm saying that the story completely unravels its own worth by turning 100 minutes of a compelling character and her ordeals into a worthless pile of junk by killing her off in the story's final moments.
The story has no meaning because...she doesn't live?
How is it not justice that the villain dies and loses the child he wanted from the beginning
Because his actions and the actions of the people that lead him to that point are independent of Ophelia's involvement; their paths did not visibly intertwine except for him to be the source of her terror.
@Seriously Everything Ophelia experienced served to be meaningless in her death. She was kind-hearted from beginning to end; she refused to take her brother's blood to open the gate, which would have been her escape from the nightmare. Instead, the gate was opened by the villain spilling her blood. It wasn't even an act of sacrifice, but of pacifism met with brutality.
None of her adventure served to impact the choices made in that final moment, so what was the point of all of it?
Posts
Pan's Labyrinth, while having some great qualities as a film, is a terrible movie; it punches you in the gut, takes your lunch money, and runs away with it laughing.
A list of things, should you be of the gifting persuasion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9J1vC-4wTs&feature=related
Also, there is a book Enchanted? Huh, I thought it was a Disney original.
i meant Ella Enchanted
i love the movie Enchanted and own it as well as the soundtrack
I mean its technical aspects vs story/entertainment value.
As a film, it makes some interesting decisions in execution that exemplify it as a work of art.
As a movie, a story to be told, it's an awful, depressing tale of a girl who is in a cruel and abusive household and only manages to find relief in her own death. Ophelia is kind and only looks to help people who are suffering or otherwise ask for her aid, and ultimately is killed for her choices, leaving everyone around her broken while she supposedly somehow wins by becoming princess of the underworld and ruling there with a kind and just heart. But this is delivered only in narrative overtones in the last 5 minutes of the movie, so it feels empty (not to mention the cognitive weight of having to accept that this underworld both exists and is a less-than-terrible place to be, having just learned of its existence only some 10-15 minutes ago).
There's not even any poetic justice in her death. She simply dies, and the antagonist is otherwise ruined by external forces that are completely unrelated to his actions against Ophelia. The movie takes you on an adventure with this girl, gets you to care about her, and then leaves her for dead with no recourse. And then tries to make it better by saying "But she totally won in the afterlife."
A list of things, should you be of the gifting persuasion
e: and to judge the movie based on a lack of poetic justice is a little silly, given that it's not a requirement that movies have such a thing
Also, I have a book of Russian fairy tales, oh man are they ever dark (and way darker than most of the original Grimm's). Totally reading those to my kid.
what the hell kind of ending did you want from a movie that blurs the line between fantasy and reality in an extremely dark time in spain's history
Sure, I know plenty of fairy tales are tragic and use that tragedy to teach a lesson; this had no such lesson, other than a dramatization of Wheaton's Law.
If you want to call that a lesson, then I guess it succeeds? But since the movie has already set you into the trope of good vs evil there's no clear message that isn't already fundamentally ingrained into the viewer.
A list of things, should you be of the gifting persuasion
you made me think of
the book
the terrible, horrible book
that gave me the worst nightmares as a kid
Side note on magical realism: My dream movie is Cary fukunaga doing an adaptation of Carlos Luis zafon's shadow of the wind
Because without one the viewer inevitably feels sucker punched.
Fairy tales are whimsical and invoke certain emotions for it, and then pull on those emotions with the tragedy of the tale, which either emphasizes the lesson to be had, or provides a vehicle on which to deliver the true conclusion of the story to its viewer.
You want a good example of a fairy tale movie that still leans on tragedy? Watch Finding Neverland.
A list of things, should you be of the gifting persuasion
I loved it too, and while it may have a few moments of being like "quick, everybody look sad for the camera!" I think it did a good job of turning the tragedy into something worth thinking about.
A list of things, should you be of the gifting persuasion
It wasn't nearly so good but man he writes amazing dialogue.
Yes! I dug it, though like you, not as much as shadow of the wind! Anxiously waiting for te third, prisoner of heaven to be translated!
Also have you checked out any of John connolly's non-mystery books, starting with book of lost things? Just picked up the internals recently and I loved his first two books of the series! Definitely in the same vein of humor/fantasy/awesomeness
it's true that Neil Gaiman is not as good a writer as someone like Michael Chabon or Dan Simmons
but he does have some considerable gifts for storytelling
hey so did I completely nerd out on Gentlemen of the Road yet
because
hot dang
This is
A stupid opinion
http://www.audioentropy.com/
So that's two cases where the movie is better than the book
Honestly, I'd love to hear counterpoints because nobody I've ever talked to about this has ever been able to point out what made the movie good. They could only shrug their shoulders and say they liked it.
That's fine, plenty of diverse opinions out there, but I'd really like to be able to get inside the head of someone who enjoyed it so I could understand what the fuck.
A list of things, should you be of the gifting persuasion
I can't really explain why.
I think it might have something to do with my mother being a dead Spanish girl.
but you are basically arguing that a story cannot be both depressing and good
which is absurd
http://www.audioentropy.com/
No, I'm saying that the story completely unravels its own worth by turning 100 minutes of a compelling character and her ordeals into a worthless pile of junk by killing her off in the story's final moments.
The Pursuit of Happyness is depressing and good, because the writers used the depressing aspects to allow something to flourish in their wake; this is not afforded that opportunity and suffers for it. If they wanted to kill her character to make a point or compel the audience, it needed to be done earlier so the rest of the time could be devoted to observing the impact that her life ultimately had on those around her.
A list of things, should you be of the gifting persuasion
it just felt like there was something meaningful missing from the story
I'd have to watch it again to really elaborate on that
if you think fairy tales are whimsical, i invite you to read more of them
I think that the things that make the movie good are things that you either do not like or would argue are not there, given what you've said so far
It's a movie that creates a fairy tale world into which a young girl escapes because her own reality is worse than even the darkest fairy tale, namely because there is often at least the hope of escape/redemption/whatever when playing by the rules
In the snow queen, for example, the girl saves her friend because she is a good person and perseveres through hardship
This girl can't really win if you assume her quest is a delusion, and so the film is a tragedy with a pyrrhic victory given what happens to the villain and to her and her brother
It's also obviously a commentary on the time, which was surreal in its own way and I thought well illustrated
Right, which predisposes you to watching this girl's horrid life and thinking that there's some greater purpose at work, or that she is given justice despite her death -- neither of which proves to be true by the time the beginning and end meet.
@Quoth The commentary on the time is part of why I respect it as a film, I just dislike it as a narrative work (particularly when it gets pitched as a "real-life fairy tale").
A list of things, should you be of the gifting persuasion
The story has no meaning because...she doesn't live?
okay
Because his actions and the actions of the people that lead him to that point are independent of Ophelia's involvement; their paths did not visibly intertwine except for him to be the source of her terror.
@Seriously Everything Ophelia experienced served to be meaningless in her death. She was kind-hearted from beginning to end; she refused to take her brother's blood to open the gate, which would have been her escape from the nightmare. Instead, the gate was opened by the villain spilling her blood. It wasn't even an act of sacrifice, but of pacifism met with brutality.
None of her adventure served to impact the choices made in that final moment, so what was the point of all of it?
A list of things, should you be of the gifting persuasion