Is @OceanStratagy really Paul Christoforo? He retweeted comments that are mocking him and calling him unprofessional.
word from further up this page is that that is a fake account
His actual OceanMarketting twitter account was doing this. He closed it and made tat new one, but he was retweeting his getting slammed on his original account, I don't see why he wouldn't be doing it on his new one.
Is @OceanStratagy really Paul Christoforo? He retweeted comments that are mocking him and calling him unprofessional.
word from further up this page is that that is a fake account
His actual OceanMarketting twitter account was doing this. He closed it and made tat new one, but he was retweeting his getting slammed on his original account, I don't see why he wouldn't be doing it on his new one.
yeah, "Stratagy" is the real (renamed) account; the fake one posting all the outlandish shit is "OceanStretagy".
It really seems like he doesn't know how twitter works, since the original twitter account was retweeting the people refuting his claims and calling him names.
I remember reading on the site that the controller is designed to give you an edge in FPS games, since using more fingers than you do with the normal supposedly gives you faster reaction times, and more able to do multiple things at once.
It was originally designed for gamers with difficulty using the standard controller, but that's obviously a fairly limited target demographic. By touting the supposed advantages it has for regular gamers they increase their potential sales.
I have absolutely zero sympathy for this guy
There's no doubt that he's a terrible raging dickhead and I just hate the sort of people who respond like he did so freaking much
I'm with Mike and wouldn't feel bad if he's ruined forever
Kinda feel bad for the people who made the controller, though
They should have cut ties to this guy immediately
I felt so strongly that I had to (finally) make a forum account (an email to Mike or Jerry felt a little too personal) to state how much I respect the Penny arcade crew.
Your stand on this issue has proven once again that you are the kind of men (and women) that make this world a better place.
Standing up to a bully for no other reason than it being the right thing to do (well, okay, a little personal vengeance too ) not only proves why you are so universally appreciated, but that you have not let this popular appeal jade you.
Even as a simple reader, I feel like penny arcade is a little piece of home, and every time I visit, life seems a little brighter.
Thanks.
I have absolutely zero sympathy for this guy
There's no doubt that he's a terrible raging dickhead and I just hate the sort of people who respond like he did so freaking much
I'm with Mike and wouldn't feel bad if he's ruined forever
Kinda feel bad for the people who made the controller, though
They should have cut ties to this guy immediately
They did. Their response just wasn't picked up by anybody major, and those that did have it listed like he took all day to do something about it.
are the biggest mentions outside of various forum threads that I've seen. I called him around lunch time and he was still trying to get his statement to somebody who could help him disseminate it. I mean, he'd just fired his entire marketing/pr/get-the-message-out branch, and it's more fun to report on roid rage and bullies than it is to say "Hey, the parent company fired his ass immediately and is trying to make up for it."
CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
This is a bit odd:
Update 12: In an odd twist, according to Corporation Wiki, both Paul Christoforo of Ocean Marketing and David Kotkin of N-Control has their names attached to a joint venture based in Miami, Florida. Per records kept by the Florida Department of State, the profile for Afternoon Artists Inc. though scarce on details has the names of the two men listed together. Christoforo is listed as Secretary whilst Kotkin is named as President, Director and Treasurer. Even more suspect is the last update for the profile being 10/22/2011, or roughly 2 months ago. Kotkin will be contacted for comment and this article will be updated accordingly.
"excuse my French
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
Update 12: In an odd twist, according to Corporation Wiki, both Paul Christoforo of Ocean Marketing and David Kotkin of N-Control has their names attached to a joint venture based in Miami, Florida. Per records kept by the Florida Department of State, the profile for Afternoon Artists Inc. though scarce on details has the names of the two men listed together. Christoforo is listed as Secretary whilst Kotkin is named as President, Director and Treasurer. Even more suspect is the last update for the profile being 10/22/2011, or roughly 2 months ago. Kotkin will be contacted for comment and this article will be updated accordingly.
That is interesting. I would have seen it earlier, but there was no connection to that from the Corporation Wiki pages I looked at. Kotkin Enterprises, LLC mainly. Be interesting to see how that pans out.
Looking at that Escapist link this is at least the third documented instance that he's been a complete dick to customers of Avenger products. Sorry that he got caught indeed.
Update 12: In an odd twist, according to Corporation Wiki, both Paul Christoforo of Ocean Marketing and David Kotkin of N-Control has their names attached to a joint venture based in Miami, Florida. Per records kept by the Florida Department of State, the profile for Afternoon Artists Inc. though scarce on details has the names of the two men listed together. Christoforo is listed as Secretary whilst Kotkin is named as President, Director and Treasurer. Even more suspect is the last update for the profile being 10/22/2011, or roughly 2 months ago. Kotkin will be contacted for comment and this article will be updated accordingly.
That is interesting. I would have seen it earlier, but there was no connection to that from the Corporation Wiki pages I looked at. Kotkin Enterprises, LLC mainly. Be interesting to see how that pans out.
So I'm not sure I'm understanding this latest post fully.
Could this mean the two were in cahoots all along?
Steam: hewn
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
This whole thing is why I'm super polite to my customers even when I'm "firing" one of them.
Yes. If you're a professional, you don't rage out at the customer. Especially if the customer is being as reasonable as Dave was. I've had customer screaming obscenities at me over the phone - I didn't curse back. I waited for them to finish and answered them calmly. Losing your temper at a customer is never to your advantage.
"excuse my French
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Update 12: In an odd twist, according to Corporation Wiki, both Paul Christoforo of Ocean Marketing and David Kotkin of N-Control has their names attached to a joint venture based in Miami, Florida. Per records kept by the Florida Department of State, the profile for Afternoon Artists Inc. though scarce on details has the names of the two men listed together. Christoforo is listed as Secretary whilst Kotkin is named as President, Director and Treasurer. Even more suspect is the last update for the profile being 10/22/2011, or roughly 2 months ago. Kotkin will be contacted for comment and this article will be updated accordingly.
That is interesting. I would have seen it earlier, but there was no connection to that from the Corporation Wiki pages I looked at. Kotkin Enterprises, LLC mainly. Be interesting to see how that pans out.
So I'm not sure I'm understanding this latest post fully.
Could this mean the two were in cahoots all along?
I don't understand it either. It's curious, to say the least.
"excuse my French
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I will say that doing front line customer service for years at a time gives you certain... spiritual calluses... that normal human beings are without. And some people should never be put in front line customer support. That's why I say that the company does bear some fault and should own up to it, because they put someone in a customer facing position that clearly never should have been put there.
"excuse my French
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
That might be a useful attachment if my gimpy arm gets worse and my hand becomes less useful.
I wouldn't be shy about buying a thing from these guys,
But I know for sure I'll never do business with that ocean marketing fellow, and after seeing this stuff, I'm more inclined to keep my marketing internal rather than outsource.
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Dusdais ashamed of this postSLC, UTRegistered Userregular
Update 12: In an odd twist, according to Corporation Wiki, both Paul Christoforo of Ocean Marketing and David Kotkin of N-Control has their names attached to a joint venture based in Miami, Florida. Per records kept by the Florida Department of State, the profile for Afternoon Artists Inc. though scarce on details has the names of the two men listed together. Christoforo is listed as Secretary whilst Kotkin is named as President, Director and Treasurer. Even more suspect is the last update for the profile being 10/22/2011, or roughly 2 months ago. Kotkin will be contacted for comment and this article will be updated accordingly.
That is interesting. I would have seen it earlier, but there was no connection to that from the Corporation Wiki pages I looked at. Kotkin Enterprises, LLC mainly. Be interesting to see how that pans out.
So I'm not sure I'm understanding this latest post fully.
Could this mean the two were in cahoots all along?
Eh, maybe, but it's just as likely that it means nothing. I think my name is on like, six businesses I 'started' with friends when an idea started rolling but didn't really pan out (and four others that have). My point is it's not uncommon for colleagues to have some random LLC registered with them on it, each covering like three different roles.
e: In other words, don't attribute to malice that which can be explained with incompetence/negligence/boredom. Or something.
Wait, who is Dave Kotkin? Is that supposedly the Dave from the emails or some other Dave entirely? Why do we care that he has a business with Paul in Flordia?
I just sort of crammed every link on the subject I've seen, and the picture I'm getting is that the two are friends, but that Kotkin is dragging Christoforo along out of some friendship or loyalty or something. I've had relationships like that. I certainly wouldn't start a business with them though.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Wait, who is Dave Kotkin? Is that supposedly the Dave from the emails or some other Dave entirely? Why do we care that he has a business with Paul in Flordia?
Dave Kotkin is the inventor of the Avenger N-control thing that this whole story started about. Here's the story of how he invented it. He seems to be a pretty cool dude. From everything that's been said, Paul C. was not actually part of the company, but was rather an outsourced marketing agent. If they started a business together, it suggests that they really were business partners after all.
But it's all speculation.
Aurich, I got kind of the same vibe as you - that Paul C. is his buddy and that's why he let him in the business to help him out. And now he's suffering for it, but you really should know better than to allow your fuck-up friends into your business.
Cambiata on
"excuse my French
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
Wait, who is Dave Kotkin? Is that supposedly the Dave from the emails or some other Dave entirely? Why do we care that he has a business with Paul in Flordia?
Dave Kotin is the inventor of the Avenger N-control thing that this whole story started about. Here's the story of how he invented it. He seems to be a pretty cool dude. From everything that's been said, Paul C. was not actually part of the company, but was rather an outsourced marketing agent. If they started a business together, it suggests that they really were business partners after all.
A search through Florida's public Department of State Division of Corporations database reveals that Kotkin and Christoforo are listed as officers in a company called Afternoon Artists. Afternoon Artists was registered this July.
Schwartz said he has been receiving a lot of questions about that connection.
"David (Kotkin) said it was a LLC for a charity that was never actually created," he said. "He bought the name thinking Paul would be involved, but nothing came of it. The company never actually existed."
Schwartz, from the quote, is N-Control's new marketing manager, Eli Schwartz.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Well that explains that. I'm saddened that anyone couldn't see that Paul Christoforo was a douche after talking with him for five minutes. Maybe he talks a good game when he wants to.
"excuse my French
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
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Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
Maybe he's like, super charming in person, but as soon as the light of the interwebs glances off of his computer screen, he is transformed, horribly, into that most terrible of beasts, the Weredouche.
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
Well that explains that. I'm saddened that anyone couldn't see that Paul Christoforo was a douche after talking with him for five minutes. Maybe he talks a good game when he wants to.
Not quite, as Dave (Kotkin's) previous marketing agency separated from him due to how douchey Paul Christoforo was, and Kotkin refused to listen when that agency told him as much.
Hi Joel,
I have been following this story since this morning when someone notified me about what was going on. I did not write that response to you.
Yes, in the past I received email at brandon@avengercontroller.com but even then we were an outsourced marketing agency for N-Control. I no longer receive email at that address because we fired N-Control as a client about 8 months ago due to constant shipping delays (which we had to deal with) and their association with Paul Cristoforo who is a street thug masquerading as a self proclaimed "Marketing Professional". This guy is a complete fool and somehow strong armed his way into working with the company so we walked away. I am not surprised in the slightest bit by what's going on right now. In fact, we told the owners of the company on many occasions that this would eventually happen.
I wasn't going to chime in but since he is replying as me, I can't resist. I personally can't stand him.
Brandon Leidel - CEO, Director of Operations
The HAND Media, Inc.
click for Anime chat
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I should feel more sorry for Paul C. than I do, but all I can hear in my head is the "They'll never fire me, I'm entirely too awesome." Every time I remember that, all my pity dries up into glorious schadenfreude.
"excuse my French
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
[edit - fuck that, Mike is now Rorschach. Shine on, you dark fucking diamond]
Controller reviews on Amazon this morning, 2 stars trending lower. The bully is afraid of me. I have seen its true face. The gaming sites are extended gutters and the gutters are full of rants and when the drains finally clear for a new loser, the bully will drown. The accumulated asshatery of their roid filled life will foam up about their waists and all the brodweebs and douchebags will look up and shout "You have all the power, please make it stop!" . . . and I'll look down and whisper, "No. I will burn everything I’ve made to the fucking ground if I think I can catch you in the flames."
They had a choice, all of them. They could have followed in the footsteps of good men like Gabe or Tycho. Decent men who believed in giving sick kids better Tuesdays. Instead they followed the droppings of fistbumping trolls and didn't realize that the trail led over a precipice until it was too late. Don't tell me they didnt have a choice.
I just wanted to post an update with some of the stuff that has happened over on my end with regards to all this Ocean Marketing stuff.
Around midnight last night Paul sent me a mail saying that I could expect to hear from their attorneys. As of right now that still has not happened and honestly I don’t expect it will. Our attorneys (who are real people with an office and everything) are ready should it get to that point though.
At 7:12am this morning I got another mail from Paul. It was one line and simply said:
“You have the power Mike Please make it stop”
The reality is that once I had posted the emails I didn’t have the power anymore. The Internet had it now and nothing I said or did was going to change that.
An hour later I got a more complete apology:
Hey Mike,
I just wanted to apologize for the way our emails progressed I didn’t know how big your site was and I really didn’t believe you ran Pax , So for what’s its worth I am very sorry. Your post has obviously made my life very difficult and I have not slept yet dealing with all the spam and personal information intrusion as well as my family being smeared on the internet.
If you can please accept my apology and anything you can do to help if not me my son and wife please do. I have apologized to Dave and apologized to you what else can I do please tell me so I can make things good. I obviously care or I would not be emailing you.
I think there is a big difference between being sorry and being sorry you got caught. I have a real problem with bullies. I spent my childhood moving from school to school and I got made fun of everyplace I landed. I feel like Paul is a bully and maybe that’s why I have no sympathy here. Someday every bully meets and even bigger bully and maybe that’s me in this case. It’s the same thing that happened with Jack Thompson. It might not always make the most business sense and it is a policy that has caused us some legal problems, but I really don’t give a shit about that. When these assholes threaten me or Penny Arcade I just laugh. I will personally burn everything I’ve made to the fucking ground if I think I can catch them in the flames.
-Gabe out
Generally speaking, I love when Gabe takes someone down .... I think it would have been nice to at least add 'lay off the guys family' or something to the end. At least keep it focused on the guy.
Can someone actually point out something directed as his family? Other than the picture harvesting so we could have a meme snippet and a clown face to have nightmares over?
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jackalFuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse.Registered Userregular
I didn't see anything directed at his family specifically. Someone on SA internet detective'd his girlfriend. Everyone said that it was over the line and the post was quickly edited to remove the information. Of course if one person could find it then anyone could so she may be getting some unwanted attention, and there's a lot of forums less self regulating than PA and SA.
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Jacques L'HommeBAH! He was a rank amateur compared to, DR. COLOSSUS!Registered Userregular
edited December 2011
Mike, you're my hero, and I want you to know I...
I love you
Having said that, Here's to some Good customer service. A story about a chap by the name of Nathan works somewhere in the ranks of the PA staff. So, my sister who is now in art school was then accepted with a monster scholarship. My ass having been a lazy one, she was the first child to go to college and there was much pride over our little artist. For my grad gift to her I ordered her a Rhombus T-shirt, an appropriate gift I thought for an art student, as well as reminiscent of some of her favorite Penny Arcadery. Or, at least I intended to. For quite some time the shirt in question had been sold out, so I waited, but it never seemed to come back in stock. A couple weeks before she moved into her dorm I shot a letter the way of the PA customer service inquiring about the shirt. A week later I checked my e-mail and to my surprise not only had someone responded, but they had responded six days prior. Oh, and he totally did some digging found a shirt, sent it out, and it arrived a bit before she left.
So, Nathan, if you can read this, Thank you. I wanna hug you.
Jacques L'Homme on
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LibrarianThe face of liberal fascismRegistered Userregular
New PA comic is out and adresses our favorite topic.
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Jacques L'HommeBAH! He was a rank amateur compared to, DR. COLOSSUS!Registered Userregular
Video games?
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LibrarianThe face of liberal fascismRegistered Userregular
Well the favorite topic for the last day or so.
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Jacques L'HommeBAH! He was a rank amateur compared to, DR. COLOSSUS!Registered Userregular
"When these assholes threaten me or Penny Arcade I just laugh. I will personally burn everything I’ve made to the fucking ground if I think I can catch them in the flames."
This is my favorite line in the entire thread and I could not agree more. I've done the same, admittedly to my detriment sometimes, but I have almost always felt the cost to me was outweighed by the impact of what I did and I only wish more people would be willing to stand for their principles even if it came with a cost that could be troublesome. Mike, if it ever came to that, I am sure that PA would arise like a phoenix from the ashes.
"No man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Posts
His actual OceanMarketting twitter account was doing this. He closed it and made tat new one, but he was retweeting his getting slammed on his original account, I don't see why he wouldn't be doing it on his new one.
yeah, "Stratagy" is the real (renamed) account; the fake one posting all the outlandish shit is "OceanStretagy".
It really seems like he doesn't know how twitter works, since the original twitter account was retweeting the people refuting his claims and calling him names.
It was originally designed for gamers with difficulty using the standard controller, but that's obviously a fairly limited target demographic. By touting the supposed advantages it has for regular gamers they increase their potential sales.
There's no doubt that he's a terrible raging dickhead and I just hate the sort of people who respond like he did so freaking much
I'm with Mike and wouldn't feel bad if he's ruined forever
Kinda feel bad for the people who made the controller, though
They should have cut ties to this guy immediately
Your stand on this issue has proven once again that you are the kind of men (and women) that make this world a better place.
Standing up to a bully for no other reason than it being the right thing to do (well, okay, a little personal vengeance too
Even as a simple reader, I feel like penny arcade is a little piece of home, and every time I visit, life seems a little brighter.
Thanks.
They did. Their response just wasn't picked up by anybody major, and those that did have it listed like he took all day to do something about it.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114961-UPDATE-Penny-Arcade-Smacks-Down-Shady-PR-Dude
and
http://www.examiner.com/video-game-industry-in-national/ocean-marketing-gaming-pr-rep-to-avoid-at-all-cost
are the biggest mentions outside of various forum threads that I've seen. I called him around lunch time and he was still trying to get his statement to somebody who could help him disseminate it. I mean, he'd just fired his entire marketing/pr/get-the-message-out branch, and it's more fun to report on roid rage and bullies than it is to say "Hey, the parent company fired his ass immediately and is trying to make up for it."
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
That is interesting. I would have seen it earlier, but there was no connection to that from the Corporation Wiki pages I looked at. Kotkin Enterprises, LLC mainly. Be interesting to see how that pans out.
So I'm not sure I'm understanding this latest post fully.
Could this mean the two were in cahoots all along?
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
Yes. If you're a professional, you don't rage out at the customer. Especially if the customer is being as reasonable as Dave was. I've had customer screaming obscenities at me over the phone - I didn't curse back. I waited for them to finish and answered them calmly. Losing your temper at a customer is never to your advantage.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
I don't understand it either. It's curious, to say the least.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
I wouldn't be shy about buying a thing from these guys,
But I know for sure I'll never do business with that ocean marketing fellow, and after seeing this stuff, I'm more inclined to keep my marketing internal rather than outsource.
e: In other words, don't attribute to malice that which can be explained with incompetence/negligence/boredom. Or something.
Dave Kotkin is the inventor of the Avenger N-control thing that this whole story started about. Here's the story of how he invented it. He seems to be a pretty cool dude. From everything that's been said, Paul C. was not actually part of the company, but was rather an outsourced marketing agent. If they started a business together, it suggests that they really were business partners after all.
But it's all speculation.
Aurich, I got kind of the same vibe as you - that Paul C. is his buddy and that's why he let him in the business to help him out. And now he's suffering for it, but you really should know better than to allow your fuck-up friends into your business.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
Near the end of this Kotaku article is says:
Schwartz, from the quote, is N-Control's new marketing manager, Eli Schwartz.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
[edit - fuck that, Mike is now Rorschach. Shine on, you dark fucking diamond]
Controller reviews on Amazon this morning, 2 stars trending lower. The bully is afraid of me. I have seen its true face. The gaming sites are extended gutters and the gutters are full of rants and when the drains finally clear for a new loser, the bully will drown. The accumulated asshatery of their roid filled life will foam up about their waists and all the brodweebs and douchebags will look up and shout "You have all the power, please make it stop!" . . . and I'll look down and whisper, "No. I will burn everything I’ve made to the fucking ground if I think I can catch you in the flames."
They had a choice, all of them. They could have followed in the footsteps of good men like Gabe or Tycho. Decent men who believed in giving sick kids better Tuesdays. Instead they followed the droppings of fistbumping trolls and didn't realize that the trail led over a precipice until it was too late. Don't tell me they didnt have a choice.
slowclap.gif
Well done.
Full link : http://courtindex.sdcourt.ca.gov/CISPublic/casedetail?casenum=DVN14325&casesite=NC&applcode=D
Generally speaking, I love when Gabe takes someone down .... I think it would have been nice to at least add 'lay off the guys family' or something to the end. At least keep it focused on the guy.
I love you
Having said that, Here's to some Good customer service. A story about a chap by the name of Nathan works somewhere in the ranks of the PA staff. So, my sister who is now in art school was then accepted with a monster scholarship. My ass having been a lazy one, she was the first child to go to college and there was much pride over our little artist. For my grad gift to her I ordered her a Rhombus T-shirt, an appropriate gift I thought for an art student, as well as reminiscent of some of her favorite Penny Arcadery. Or, at least I intended to. For quite some time the shirt in question had been sold out, so I waited, but it never seemed to come back in stock. A couple weeks before she moved into her dorm I shot a letter the way of the PA customer service inquiring about the shirt. A week later I checked my e-mail and to my surprise not only had someone responded, but they had responded six days prior. Oh, and he totally did some digging found a shirt, sent it out, and it arrived a bit before she left.
So, Nathan, if you can read this, Thank you. I wanna hug you.
Awesome Grinch face on Gabe in the first frame.
We also seem to be lacking a thread for the latest from The Trenches.
edit : Aww.
Excellent Tychoface though.
"When these assholes threaten me or Penny Arcade I just laugh. I will personally burn everything I’ve made to the fucking ground if I think I can catch them in the flames."
This is my favorite line in the entire thread and I could not agree more. I've done the same, admittedly to my detriment sometimes, but I have almost always felt the cost to me was outweighed by the impact of what I did and I only wish more people would be willing to stand for their principles even if it came with a cost that could be troublesome. Mike, if it ever came to that, I am sure that PA would arise like a phoenix from the ashes.
Thomas Jefferson