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It's after Six. What am I, a farmer? [Discussing changing and evolving norms and fashions]
spacekungfuman
Poor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
Poor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
I think it is undeniable that over time, manners have loosened substantially, and things which were once impolite have become completely appceptable. I think there are definitely good aspects of this, but I can't help but think we have lost something in the process. For example, while it is nice to be able to wear jeans in an expensive restaurant if you want to, I think it takes away from the enjoyment of dressing up for a special dinner, since you feel stupid for wearing a suit when the guy at the next table is in shorts. What manners, niceties, and social norms do you think we may have been too hasty in abandoning?
Edit: I changed the title of the thread to reflect where the conversation is going.
Edit: I changed the title of the thread to reflect where the conversation is going.
spacekungfuman on
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Is this thread about farming and how farmers have bad manners, or is it how being after six o'clock makes us have bad manners?
Of course, later that week I wore a t-shirt and jeans to a really nice hotel restaurant where everyone was dressed up because my GF didn't tell me there was a dress code (they'd recently allowed t-shirts in on a probationary basis, but I was still underdressed compared to the setting).
It's a quote from 30 Rock.
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
People who think everyone within twenty yards wants to listen to their shitty music, whether it's by having music on dangerously loud in earphones or by being stupid enough to think music sounds great playing at full tinny blast out of a shitty phone speaker. Okay it's mostly kids on buses/trams who do this and most of them will grow out of being inconsiderate retards but you shouldn't have to have an argument with a child or three to be able to go somewhere without listening to 50 cent or whatever.
People who have let the value they put on their work mean they're ok being rude if it gets them to work faster, or more comfortably. This one happens pretty much exclusively on trams here, it's people who are so lazy that standing up for a maximum of an hour means they can try to push on to the tram through the people trying to get off. This is pretty much exclusively middle class adults on their way to work in the city centre. Fuck you if waiting ten seconds to let everyone off means there are no seats left by the time you get on, I'd much rather not be an asshole and let people off the tram easily than not have to stand up for half an hour.
If we're in such a rush all the time that it's normal for us to be rude to each other we're living our lives wrong.
I'm actually really glad when it feels like things like dress codes are being relaxed, I don't really get why we need to be wearing uniforms out side of a professional/scholastic setting. Why not just let's all be comfortable in whatever we want to wear and give less of a shit about what others are wearing; it's so meaningless.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
1) Hat's aren't a ubiquitous fashion item anymore, 2) i'd like to think we've advanced enough with egalitarianism that we don't have to practice benevolent sexism in order to be "polite," and 3) what theater? live stage productions? People still dress up for those kinds of things. Movie theaters? Who gives a crap.
Really this topic reeks of trite "get off my lawn/good old days" fodder. I would argue that people overall are slightly more polite/kinder to others on the day to day now than what it was like before. Especially with advancements like, you know, publicly frowning upon casual racism/sexism in the workplace and other public areas.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
You have not been wearing suits that fit you right.
I normally am in formal wear once or twice a week at least for work, and even with a non-fitted shirt that at least is in my dimensions in general, I've never had a problem wearing a suit. In fact, I really quite enjoy it, it feels nice to look good. Heck, I enjoy wearing the whole tux thing, complete with the actual bow tie(none of this clip-on crap). Putting on a suit+tie or even a tux only has a few more steps than putting on a t-shirt and jeans, I don't see what the big problem people have with it is.
I think he means on all sides, and there's something to be said about not showing up to a black tie event in white tie or a tuxedo in the daytime.
The suits fit me fine. They're simply not designed for comfort, much like stiletto heels.
There's also a lower limit for that though. Seriously, I don't think a suit+tie can ever look out of place in normal circumstances. Sure, at the beach or something, but just around town the suit+tie will always work.
However, yeah, if you're showing up in a tux at for a morning casual wedding then that's too far, but you'd have to go pretty far to overdress compared to how easy it is to underdress.
Do they? Oh dear. I don't.
I'm actually ok with this one. I'm not entirely sure why. I mean, live concerts of art music, yeah. Certain live productions of straight plays or musicals, I would say it would be a good idea.
However, a T-shirt and jeans to In the Heights? I'm ok with that.
T-shirt and Jeans to Adding Machine or Dr. Atomic? Get out of here with that.
For something like most broadway shows, off, and off-off, I don't think dressing up is really that necessary anymore. Maybe it's because Broadway is so mainstream commercial, and off is mainstream commercial trying to be smaller and grittier, and off-off is actually smaller and grittier, I think it's more appropriate.
That I don't know.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Eh, with older stuff, maybe. But in terms of being mainstream commercial, Les Miz is like, super that. Shit, when it was made available for High schools the writer and composer just came out and were all like "We just wanted more money".
In general I'd say anything short of, say, Guettal, there's no particular need. Maybe Sondheim.
I'd more say that hats disappeared because people stopped walking everywhere and because sunglasses were invented. You used to need a hat to keep the sun out of your eyes, not so after sunglasses. Hat usage also declined steadily with the penetration of cars since you wouldn't need them while driving either.
Hats may be somewhat returning as a fashion statement but they'll never return to the ubiquity they had pre-20th century. Without them being omnipresent (or even omnipresent within a specific subculture), manners and norms regarding them won't return.
John Adams is good too though.
Well, Nixon in China is good. Doctor Atomic kind of makes my ears bleed although maybe it will grow on me.
*tips hat*
Miss Manners is awesome.
No, this is an issue you have, or you just don't know how a suit/clothes should fit. The few I've worn have all been extremely comfortable (and tailored to me).
Oddly enough I managed to pick up the hat indoors etiquette at some point in my life and it has never quite left me.
If for some incredibly odd reason I am wearing a hat it goes on the instant I step outside and it comes off the instant I step inside.
And wearing a tux to a day wedding is a terrible example. That's not dressing too formally, that's wearing the complete wrong item for the occasion, and anyone even vaguely interested in dressing apropriately would know not to.
In any case, I'm totally with the OP on this one. I live in minnesota and recently had twins. I can not explain how unbelievably inapropriate and obnoxious people are when talking to my fiance and I about them. Invariably within the first five minutes we've been asked about fertility treatments, breastfeeding, and several things about the birth.
A recent trip to Nashville just emphasized this more, since it turns out people there apparently actually know how to talk to strangers. They asked questions like, "How old are your beutiful twins?", "What are there names?", and, "Boys or girls?"
Then on the way back the very first person that asks about the babes immediately asks my fiance if they, "Ripped her in half." Lovely.
--LeVar Burton
when the guy at the next table at l'espallier is wearing jeans and no tie, i narrow my eyes at him. it's my right as a fucking member of society.