I'll tell you what's impolite - poor punctuation when people make posts on message boards. I labor diligently to never neglect my SHIFT key to add capitalization and fancy <brackets> to every single one of my witty replies in an effort to raise up standards in this place.
but i cant stick my pinky out that far to hit shift
Did a caveman type that? Did you injure your pinky finger banging rocks together all morning?
your mother rolled onto my hands in bed this morning
syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
If I showed up at a meeting with a potential client in torn jeans and an ironic T-shirt, and my client wasn't a hipster or a skateboarder, I would basically be asking them not to hire me.
It would be just as bad if I showed up smelling like feces in some environments. Like a NYSE boardroom or a Lawyer's office.
A big part of the outfit shows effort, attention to detail, and a willingness to "play ball" as it were. And there is nothing wrong with that at all.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I am open to looking for new ways for people to show manners and concern/kindness for others, but I'm just not seeing them.
Treating people who aren't white men with equal respect and dignity. That sure as hell didn't happen in your glorious 50s.
can you not do this
like, is it in your blood not to do this?
I could choose not to do that, just like spacekungfuman could have chosen to address the point instead of pretending it wasn't there when it was first presented.
I am open to looking for new ways for people to show manners and concern/kindness for others, but I'm just not seeing them.
Treating people who aren't white men with equal respect and dignity. That sure as hell didn't happen in your glorious 50s.
can you not do this
like, is it in your blood not to do this?
I could choose not to do that, just like spacekungfuman could have chosen to address the point instead of pretending it wasn't there when it was first presented.
at any point has he suggested that he treats non-whites with less than equal respect and dignity? at any point has he suggested that the 50s lacked any flaws, or that there were no shortcomings in etiquette 60 years ago?
maybe there's a reason he won't respond to you.
0
Options
Muse Among MenSuburban Bunny Princess?Its time for a new shtick Registered Userregular
Plus, isn't the entire reason for fancy dress to basically say "Ha HA! I'm a higher class than you, pleb!"
I mean, hell, the French Revolution had an entire class of people whose identity was their lack of fancy pants.
In the French Revolution, the sans-culottes (French pronunciation: [sɑ̃ kylɔt], without silk knee-breeches) were the radical militants of the lower classes; typically urban laborers. Though ill-clad and ill-equipped, they made up the bulk of the Revolutionary army during the early years of the French Revolutionary Wars.[1] The appellation refers to the fashionable culottes (silk knee-breeches) of the moderate bourgeois revolutionaries as distinguished from the working class sans-culottes, who traditionally wore pantalons (long trousers).[2][3]
maybe this is where the pejorative 'fancy-pants' comes from, whoah! 0_0
On dress: I think many people have brought up excellent points about why we dress nice and/or should continue to do so. I am surprised to hear so little of the aesthetic pleasure that comes from being at an event where everyone is well groomed and nicely dressed. It is just visually pleasing. I think there are people in this discussion who would find that a very weak argument and to that, well I just feel bad that they are unable to partake in that pleasure.
On comfort: formal clothes can be much more comfortable than they are being given credit for. I can't really think of anything formal I have ever worn that was truly uncomfortable. Maybe tulle when I was a wee lass? I personally do not find heels that uncomfortable, but heels are not the nadir of female footwear formality and a girl is always free to wear flats.
I am open to looking for new ways for people to show manners and concern/kindness for others, but I'm just not seeing them.
Treating people who aren't white men with equal respect and dignity. That sure as hell didn't happen in your glorious 50s.
can you not do this
like, is it in your blood not to do this?
I could choose not to do that, just like spacekungfuman could have chosen to address the point instead of pretending it wasn't there when it was first presented.
at any point has he suggested that he treats non-whites with less than equal respect and dignity? at any point has he suggested that the 50s lacked any flaws, or that there were no shortcomings in etiquette 60 years ago?
like tipping hats, rising in the presence of a woman, dressing for the theater, etc.
1) Hat's aren't a ubiquitous fashion item anymore, 2) i'd like to think we've advanced enough with egalitarianism that we don't have to practice benevolent sexism in order to be "polite," and 3) what theater? live stage productions? People still dress up for those kinds of things. Movie theaters? Who gives a crap.
Really this topic reeks of trite "get off my lawn/good old days" fodder. I would argue that people overall are slightly more polite/kinder to others on the day to day now than what it was like before. Especially with advancements like, you know, publicly frowning upon casual racism/sexism in the workplace and other public areas.
I really don't want to talk about racism and sexism. This topic is just about nice pleasantries that noone cares about anymore. On 3, I see people in tshirts at broadway shows all the time.
@esh Yes, I know what culture is. I disagree that people in the same culture are homogenous, if that's what you're getting at. They still maintain different beliefs and preferences. Of course you can get insanely specific discussing subsets of culture as well. I guess I should have specified western culture. What's your point though?
The point is that you wanting everyone to have the same norms and values is just ridiculous. I'd hate a world where that was the case. I didn't mean I thought that everyone would look, act, and dress the same, but wanting to eradicate what makes people different from one another is just asinine. And when discussing cultures, if you want to get to the root of things, you HAVE to get pretty specific with subcultures. It's how ethnographies are put together.
Look, we know you disagree with the system as it is. But what you're arguing is just not going to happen, so what is the point of you going on and on and on about it? And all the crazy analogies? Handshaking?
This always fucking happens on the light rail in Portland. Seriously people, let the passengers on the train off first before you try to cram your ass into the train.
Living in Portland and being used to this, when I was in France last semester, they just cram on and off with absolutely no regard for anyone. People will just stand in the doorways too and look genuinely puzzled when you express in interest in getting on or off. God forbid you ask someone to move back so that more people can fit on the bus.
I had a girl standing about six feet back from the entrance to the bus, in the middle of the aisle, two huge suitcases and a fucking cello case strapped to her back so that no one could get by her.
I am open to looking for new ways for people to show manners and concern/kindness for others, but I'm just not seeing them.
Treating people who aren't white men with equal respect and dignity. That sure as hell didn't happen in your glorious 50s.
Oh my god, you are insufferable. I think everyone here is aware of what a civil rights disaster we had back then. This thread is about hats, not civil rights and not your obsession with feeling superior or whatever makes you post this shit everywhere.
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
@esh Yes, I know what culture is. I disagree that people in the same culture are homogenous, if that's what you're getting at. They still maintain different beliefs and preferences. Of course you can get insanely specific discussing subsets of culture as well. I guess I should have specified western culture. What's your point though?
The point is that you wanting everyone to have the same norms and values is just ridiculous. I'd hate a world where that was the case. I didn't mean I thought that everyone would look, act, and dress the same, but wanting to eradicate what makes people different from one another is just asinine. And when discussing cultures, if you want to get to the root of things, you HAVE to get pretty specific with subcultures. It's how ethnographies are put together.
Look, we know you disagree with the system as it is. But what you're arguing is just not going to happen, so what is the point of you going on and on and on about it? And all the crazy analogies? Handshaking?
You're right, that would be ridiculous. It's a good thing I don't want that or am suggesting that. I also didn't bring up handshaking, someone else did.
If you think that people's chosen formal wear is what keeps them different from one another, I don't even know what to say. I'm not saying we shouldn't wear suits, I'm saying we shouldn't judge people as being inferior because of it. Requiring certain styles of dress is an arbitrary cultural custom. It has no functional value. There's no particular need for it, or any particular niche it fills in human desire, other than to see yourself as being better than someone else.
I mean, I still dress up. I wear a tie and all that. I even feel pretty schnazzy in a suit. But I don't feel like that makes me better than the person next to me in jeans and a tshirt.
And might I add I've tried to turn the conversation away to other things, I'm not "going on and on and on about it." It's a discussion forum, people discuss.
And might I add I've tried to turn the conversation away to other things, I'm not "going on and on and on about it." It's a discussion forum, people discuss.
No, we decide on unmitigated truth and then shut up about it and/or become condescendingly dismissive.
Lucid on
0
Options
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
@esh Yes, I know what culture is. I disagree that people in the same culture are homogenous, if that's what you're getting at. They still maintain different beliefs and preferences. Of course you can get insanely specific discussing subsets of culture as well. I guess I should have specified western culture. What's your point though?
The point is that you wanting everyone to have the same norms and values is just ridiculous. I'd hate a world where that was the case. I didn't mean I thought that everyone would look, act, and dress the same, but wanting to eradicate what makes people different from one another is just asinine. And when discussing cultures, if you want to get to the root of things, you HAVE to get pretty specific with subcultures. It's how ethnographies are put together.
Look, we know you disagree with the system as it is. But what you're arguing is just not going to happen, so what is the point of you going on and on and on about it? And all the crazy analogies? Handshaking?
You're right, that would be ridiculous. It's a good thing I don't want that or am suggesting that. I also didn't bring up handshaking, someone else did.
If you think that people's chosen formal wear is what keeps them different from one another, I don't even know what to say. I'm not saying we shouldn't wear suits, I'm saying we shouldn't judge people as being inferior because of it. Requiring certain styles of dress is an arbitrary cultural custom. It has no functional value. There's no particular need for it, or any particular niche it fills in human desire, other than to see yourself as being better than someone else.
I mean, I still dress up. I wear a tie and all that. I even feel pretty schnazzy in a suit. But I don't feel like that makes me better than the person next to me in jeans and a tshirt.
And might I add I've tried to turn the conversation away to other things, I'm not "going on and on and on about it." It's a discussion forum, people discuss.
I never said that people's chosen formal wear is what separates them. You can't mention that, and then just start dropping the word "culture" left and right and expect me to think you're only talking about suits.
No one is saying "This makes you better than anyone else.". I'm not saying that. That'd be pretty damn ethnocentric of me. All cultures/sub-cultures are equal in my eyes (of course, there's always some bias, that's impossible to shake), but don't sit around and complain about a particular subset and its rules when you've decided to actively participate and make your living through it. When in Rome. Deal with it or find a different way to make a living. What you're complaining about is so inconsequential in the scheme of things.
And yeah, you did mention the handshaking.
"One could argue that as handshakes are a way to spread disease that we would be better off without them."
One could also argue that it has helped to strengthen our immune systems and help us to ward off disease. But that's neither here nor there.
Do what I do, feel silently superior to those who don't observe etiquette.
when the guy at the next table at l'espallier is wearing jeans and no tie, i narrow my eyes at him. it's my right as a fucking member of society.
I'm glad for you that you're still in college though, really. I'd love for you to share the things you've learned. But don't wave around terms you know we're unfamiliar with to prove you're right. Explain them, and discuss them.
I'm not complaining. I'm discussing. You don't get to just say "Well this is how it works, so stop trying to talk about it in any other way."
I'm not sitting over here angry and fuming I have to wear a tie. Personally, I like ties. I don't think you should get to be judged for your choice of attire, is all.
SniperGuy on
0
Options
mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
1000 dollar designer jeans scream "new rich classless twat"
0
Options
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
Do what I do, feel silently superior to those who don't observe etiquette.
when the guy at the next table at l'espallier is wearing jeans and no tie, i narrow my eyes at him. it's my right as a fucking member of society.
I'm glad for you that you're still in college though, really. I'm not complaining. I'm discussing. You don't get to just say "Well this is how it works, so stop trying to talk about it in any other way."
I'm not sitting over here angry and fuming I have to wear a tie. Personally, I like ties. I don't think you should get to be judged for it, is all.
How many times do we need to tell you this? It's not the tie you're being judged on, it's the fact you choose to disregard social customs in specific situations.
Also, what kind of weird dig was "still in college"? Talk about judging people...
0
Options
mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
edited January 2012
Hey @esh and other suit wearing people. I have a fashion/suit buying question.
Buying my first nice suit and I was looking at brooks brothers. Dont have enough for bespoke but as far as off the rack goes is that a good choice.
The fact that those social customs allow people to be judged is what I am saying is silly. You also caught my post before I clarified in an edit. It's not a "dig" it's pointing out that you're doing the standard college student thing of "I'm in college and have taken a few classes, and therefore am more qualified than you so we shouldn't even discuss it."
0
Options
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
The fact that those social customs allow people to be judged is what I am saying is silly. You also caught my post before I clarified in an edit. It's not a "dig" it's pointing out that you're doing the standard college student thing of "I'm in college and have taken a few classes, and therefore am more qualified than you so we shouldn't even discuss it."
No, I'm saying that it's one of my focuses in college (Social/Cultural Anthropology) so I probably have a little better grasp on the subject than you do.
And yes, life and people are silly sometimes and don't make a ton of sense. But, isn't that what makes them wonderful? Look, it's a system that's in place and one that I think you're worrying way too much about it. There are other far more grave things happening here and in other places to get worked up about.
I for one love the custom of getting dressed up for certain places and occasions. I like looking really nice. I love the ritual.
Every culture has its own set of rules and norms. It's a fact of life. Great, you don't like it. Let's move on. There were tons of things I didn't like when I was in France for a term, but I just did as they did and let it roll off my back.
If your studies provide you with knowledge, then use it to inform your arguments. Telling someone you're studying something(or namedropping) is irrelevant, it doesn't constitute an argument nor does it add to one.
The fact that those social customs allow people to be judged is what I am saying is silly. You also caught my post before I clarified in an edit. It's not a "dig" it's pointing out that you're doing the standard college student thing of "I'm in college and have taken a few classes, and therefore am more qualified than you so we shouldn't even discuss it."
No, I'm saying that it's one of my focuses in college (Social/Cultural Anthropology) so I probably have a little better grasp on the subject than you do.
And yes, life and people are silly sometimes and don't make a ton of sense. But, isn't that what makes people and life wonderful?
No, it makes them irrational and wasteful. And yes, I too have taken social and cultural anthropology courses. So perhaps you do and perhaps you don't. But it doesn't fucking matter. You're supposed to discuss regardless, not say "Well, I know more, so you should stop trying to discuss it."
0
Options
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
The fact that those social customs allow people to be judged is what I am saying is silly. You also caught my post before I clarified in an edit. It's not a "dig" it's pointing out that you're doing the standard college student thing of "I'm in college and have taken a few classes, and therefore am more qualified than you so we shouldn't even discuss it."
No, I'm saying that it's one of my focuses in college (Social/Cultural Anthropology) so I probably have a little better grasp on the subject than you do.
And yes, life and people are silly sometimes and don't make a ton of sense. But, isn't that what makes people and life wonderful?
No, it makes them irrational and wasteful. And yes, I too have taken social and cultural anthropology courses. So perhaps you do and perhaps you don't. But it doesn't fucking matter. You're supposed to discuss regardless, not say "Well, I know more, so you should stop trying to discuss it."
Yes, because people aren't perfect. We're an irrational and wasteful species. And that's not what I said at all, I'm just filling you in on where I'm coming from here. I just don't understand what you're trying to discuss. All you keep saying is "This is silly and serves no purpose." which is completely false. It's one of the many things that define us. If we went through and picked out all things from our culture which didn't really serve a utilitarian purpose...well, I don't even know.
0
Options
spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
I can't point to an empirical drop in the number of graces that are generally held to, but I don't think it's hard to see that we have become a more casual society. That is not universally a bad thing, but I do think that in losing the discipline of following rules and the strength of social probation that are part of this more casual world, we may have slipped too far into the realm of accepting/not condemning rude behaviors.
And like other people said, while matters of race and gender are tightly woven into a lot of these behaviors, this is not the topic to discuss them. This is where we talk about the hats.
0
Options
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
I can't point to an empirical drop in the number of graces that are generally held to, but I don't think it's hard to see that we have become a more casual society. That is not universally a bad thing, but I do think that in losing the discipline of following rules and the strength of social probation that are part of this more casual world, we may have slipped too far into the realm of accepting/not condemning rude behaviors.
And like other people said, while matters of race and gender are tightly woven into a lot of these behaviors, this is not the topic to discuss them. This is where we talk about the hats.
Yeah, hats. Can't stand them. I think they look goofy on me, but I don't begrudge others for wearing them. Except inside. Philistines.
Esh on
0
Options
spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
I for one love the custom of getting dressed up for certain places and occasions. I like looking really nice. I love the ritual.
Every culture has its own set of rules and norms. It's a fact of life. Great, you don't like it. Let's move on. There were tons of things I didn't like when I was in France for a term, but I just did as they did and let it roll off my back.
Me too. Going to work is not my first choice in the morning, but feeling like I look good and seeing other people in their trench coats and great coats and nice scarves is a pick me up when I first get to the office. It makes me feel like I work with people who take pride in themselves and their jobs.
0
Options
spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Yeah, hats. Can't stand them. I think they look goofy on me, but I don't begrudge others for wearing them. Except inside. Philistines.
The real trouble with hats now is knowing what kind to wear and when to wear them. Wearing a fedora without at least a suit and trench coat is often very silly looking, but even then, it's a very personal style decision, since they are no longer just part of business garb. But nothing makes you look worse than wearing one indoors. It makes you look deliberately rude or just ignorant of how to wear it.
I can't point to an empirical drop in the number of graces that are generally held to, but I don't think it's hard to see that we have become a more casual society. That is not universally a bad thing, but I do think that in losing the discipline of following rules and the strength of social probation that are part of this more casual world, we may have slipped too far into the realm of accepting/not condemning rude behaviors.
This could just be a case of changing values though. Not necessarily a downturn or overall loss. For instance, I often hear people discuss how language is 'devolving', but any linguistic professional I've encountered will deem that to be a falsehood. It's more of a state of fluctuation.
I personally find social mannerism in western culture to be a little too far into the extroverted side, so I can understand the desire for more polite behaviour. I'm just not comfortable implying that there exists an actual phenomenon of depreciating standards.
Lucid on
0
Options
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
Yeah, hats. Can't stand them. I think they look goofy on me, but I don't begrudge others for wearing them. Except inside. Philistines.
The real trouble with hats now is knowing what kind to wear and when to wear them. Wearing a fedora without at least a suit and trench coat is often very silly looking, but even then, it's a very personal style decision, since they are no longer just part of business garb. But nothing makes you look worse than wearing one indoors. It makes you look deliberately rude or just ignorant of how to wear it.
This is pretty much how I see most people wearing hats nowadays...
I can't point to an empirical drop in the number of graces that are generally held to, but I don't think it's hard to see that we have become a more casual society. That is not universally a bad thing, but I do think that in losing the discipline of following rules and the strength of social probation that are part of this more casual world, we may have slipped too far into the realm of accepting/not condemning rude behaviors.
This could just be a case of changing values though. Not necessarily a downturn or overall loss. For instance, I often hear people discuss how language is 'devolving', but any linguistic professional I've encountered will deem that to be a falsehood. It's more of a state of fluctuation.
I love the fits that certain dialects throw prescriptivists into. Luckily, those people exist only outside of the realm of professional linguists.
0
Options
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Hey @esh and other suit wearing people. I have a fashion/suit buying question.
Buying my first nice suit and I was looking at brooks brothers. Dont have enough for bespoke but as far as off the rack goes is that a good choice.
Didn't see this answered
@mrt144 Honestly, to me fit is most important, followed by fabric (this goes for everything I wear really)
I'm a really thin dude, and Brooks Brothers (and Hugo Boss) seems to lean to a stockier build off the rack, so I've never actually bought one. Fabric wise they are pretty decent. Try to get at least 120s if its wool
tl;dr: if it fits you well in the shoulders and chest, get it and have it tailored
0
Options
mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
Im 5'9 190 with a small gut. I was looking at boss amd nordstrom too. If I lose weight which is my goal I cam have it taken in some, right?
0
Options
spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Hey @esh and other suit wearing people. I have a fashion/suit buying question.
Buying my first nice suit and I was looking at brooks brothers. Dont have enough for bespoke but as far as off the rack goes is that a good choice.
Didn't see this answered
@mrt144 Honestly, to me fit is most important, followed by fabric (this goes for everything I wear really)
I'm a really thin dude, and Brooks Brothers (and Hugo Boss) seems to lean to a stockier build off the rack, so I've never actually bought one. Fabric wise they are pretty decent. Try to get at least 120s if its wool
tl;dr: if it fits you well in the shoulders and chest, get it and have it tailored
I would also add that you might get a nice Burberry, Abound, etc suit at an outlet like off Saks or Nordstrom rack (Barneys is best if you have one) which you could then have your tailor alter. You can get some very nice cloth that way. Pair whatever you buy with nice shoes (colehaan can be a good choice, since a lot of their designs are stolen from ferragmo). A nice fitted shirt, and a nice tie, and you will look like you spent much more than you did. I also reccomend Seiko if you want a cheap dress watch that doesn't look cheap.
I agree that Brooks Brothers off the rack is wide in the chest, and yet, their pants run a little small in the waist. Pretty nice stuff though, if the fit works for you.
0
Options
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
Hey @esh and other suit wearing people. I have a fashion/suit buying question.
Buying my first nice suit and I was looking at brooks brothers. Dont have enough for bespoke but as far as off the rack goes is that a good choice.
Didn't see this answered
@mrt144 Honestly, to me fit is most important, followed by fabric (this goes for everything I wear really)
I'm a really thin dude, and Brooks Brothers (and Hugo Boss) seems to lean to a stockier build off the rack, so I've never actually bought one. Fabric wise they are pretty decent. Try to get at least 120s if its wool
tl;dr: if it fits you well in the shoulders and chest, get it and have it tailored
Yeah, I honestly can't answer for Brooks Brothers. I've heard the J. Crew suits aren't too bad for the price. What are you looking to spend?
0
Options
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Point being, shoddily trying to affect an entire look by referring to just a scant few parts of the look will not the proper job do. Actually what happens is that you look like a giant doofus or giant douchebag, depending on the context of the item. Wearing a cool fedora with a printed tee and pleated jeans? You look like a senile dork. Wearing a scarf indoors during the summer? Poser-ific douchenozzle.
If you want to look cool like the guys from LA Noire or Mad Men, YOU NEED TO LOOK LIKE THOSE GUYS DO. And those guys don't wear tee shirts in public, or have shaggy unkempt hair, scuzzy goatees, or wear weird shoes, or have a ton of piercings. They're clean shaven, wear smart well-tailored suits, and their outfits always match. You looking like Jeff Tweedy's smellier zombie twin brother isn't going to improve by donning a fancy hat or expensive vest; it will, however, make you look like a pretentious ass.
0
Options
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
The fact that those social customs allow people to be judged is what I am saying is silly. You also caught my post before I clarified in an edit. It's not a "dig" it's pointing out that you're doing the standard college student thing of "I'm in college and have taken a few classes, and therefore am more qualified than you so we shouldn't even discuss it."
No, I'm saying that it's one of my focuses in college (Social/Cultural Anthropology) so I probably have a little better grasp on the subject than you do.
And yes, life and people are silly sometimes and don't make a ton of sense. But, isn't that what makes people and life wonderful?
No, it makes them irrational and wasteful. And yes, I too have taken social and cultural anthropology courses. So perhaps you do and perhaps you don't. But it doesn't fucking matter. You're supposed to discuss regardless, not say "Well, I know more, so you should stop trying to discuss it."
Yes, because people aren't perfect. We're an irrational and wasteful species. And that's not what I said at all, I'm just filling you in on where I'm coming from here. I just don't understand what you're trying to discuss. All you keep saying is "This is silly and serves no purpose." which is completely false. It's one of the many things that define us. If we went through and picked out all things from our culture which didn't really serve a utilitarian purpose...well, I don't even know.
I disagree that its completely false, and that it really defines us. We currently do use it as a way to define people, but I'm arguing that we'd be better off if we didn't do that and it wouldn't be at the expense of our cultural identity. I see no need to judge others by their outward appearance. I feel as if the social custom to do so is harmful, rather than a positive contribution to society. If we, instead of thumbing our noses at people based on their dress, but instead waited to see their actions or hear their words to dismiss them, we'd be better off. The first action you choose may be to choose your clothing, but I don't think your choice of clothing should influence the opinion others have of you. That is what I am trying to discuss.
0
Options
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Also, being over in the UK for awhile has really kind of tweaked my eye to the way that Americans dress vs. other nationals.
There seems to be this emerging attitude in the US that price tag dictates decorum, and that anything that looks a fucking mess can be appropriate attire for almost any occasion as long as the look is visibly expensive. A tee shirt and skinny jeans on a guy is a terrible look for any day out, but if it's an Armani Exchange v-neck and Kenneth Cole jeans, well, come on into the State Funeral, Mr. Ambassador.
People in the UK, especially in country estate setting north of London, wear fairly toned down overcoats and blazers of wool and tweed. And they're often expensive, but just as often not, and you don't see botoxed housewives out and about in yoga pants and a neon Juicy Couture sweatshirt.
Posts
your mother rolled onto my hands in bed this morning
...i'm sorry, em
that was crass and i am sorry
It would be just as bad if I showed up smelling like feces in some environments. Like a NYSE boardroom or a Lawyer's office.
A big part of the outfit shows effort, attention to detail, and a willingness to "play ball" as it were. And there is nothing wrong with that at all.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
at any point has he suggested that he treats non-whites with less than equal respect and dignity? at any point has he suggested that the 50s lacked any flaws, or that there were no shortcomings in etiquette 60 years ago?
maybe there's a reason he won't respond to you.
maybe this is where the pejorative 'fancy-pants' comes from, whoah! 0_0
On dress: I think many people have brought up excellent points about why we dress nice and/or should continue to do so. I am surprised to hear so little of the aesthetic pleasure that comes from being at an event where everyone is well groomed and nicely dressed. It is just visually pleasing. I think there are people in this discussion who would find that a very weak argument and to that, well I just feel bad that they are unable to partake in that pleasure.
On comfort: formal clothes can be much more comfortable than they are being given credit for. I can't really think of anything formal I have ever worn that was truly uncomfortable. Maybe tulle when I was a wee lass? I personally do not find heels that uncomfortable, but heels are not the nadir of female footwear formality and a girl is always free to wear flats.
The point is that you wanting everyone to have the same norms and values is just ridiculous. I'd hate a world where that was the case. I didn't mean I thought that everyone would look, act, and dress the same, but wanting to eradicate what makes people different from one another is just asinine. And when discussing cultures, if you want to get to the root of things, you HAVE to get pretty specific with subcultures. It's how ethnographies are put together.
Look, we know you disagree with the system as it is. But what you're arguing is just not going to happen, so what is the point of you going on and on and on about it? And all the crazy analogies? Handshaking?
Living in Portland and being used to this, when I was in France last semester, they just cram on and off with absolutely no regard for anyone. People will just stand in the doorways too and look genuinely puzzled when you express in interest in getting on or off. God forbid you ask someone to move back so that more people can fit on the bus.
I had a girl standing about six feet back from the entrance to the bus, in the middle of the aisle, two huge suitcases and a fucking cello case strapped to her back so that no one could get by her.
Oh my god, you are insufferable. I think everyone here is aware of what a civil rights disaster we had back then. This thread is about hats, not civil rights and not your obsession with feeling superior or whatever makes you post this shit everywhere.
You're right, that would be ridiculous. It's a good thing I don't want that or am suggesting that. I also didn't bring up handshaking, someone else did.
If you think that people's chosen formal wear is what keeps them different from one another, I don't even know what to say. I'm not saying we shouldn't wear suits, I'm saying we shouldn't judge people as being inferior because of it. Requiring certain styles of dress is an arbitrary cultural custom. It has no functional value. There's no particular need for it, or any particular niche it fills in human desire, other than to see yourself as being better than someone else.
I mean, I still dress up. I wear a tie and all that. I even feel pretty schnazzy in a suit. But I don't feel like that makes me better than the person next to me in jeans and a tshirt.
And might I add I've tried to turn the conversation away to other things, I'm not "going on and on and on about it." It's a discussion forum, people discuss.
No, we decide on unmitigated truth and then shut up about it and/or become condescendingly dismissive.
I never said that people's chosen formal wear is what separates them. You can't mention that, and then just start dropping the word "culture" left and right and expect me to think you're only talking about suits.
No one is saying "This makes you better than anyone else.". I'm not saying that. That'd be pretty damn ethnocentric of me. All cultures/sub-cultures are equal in my eyes (of course, there's always some bias, that's impossible to shake), but don't sit around and complain about a particular subset and its rules when you've decided to actively participate and make your living through it. When in Rome. Deal with it or find a different way to make a living. What you're complaining about is so inconsequential in the scheme of things.
And yeah, you did mention the handshaking.
"One could argue that as handshakes are a way to spread disease that we would be better off without them."
One could also argue that it has helped to strengthen our immune systems and help us to ward off disease. But that's neither here nor there.
/middle of his BA in Anthropology
And yes, people are saying that.
I'm glad for you that you're still in college though, really. I'd love for you to share the things you've learned. But don't wave around terms you know we're unfamiliar with to prove you're right. Explain them, and discuss them.
I'm not complaining. I'm discussing. You don't get to just say "Well this is how it works, so stop trying to talk about it in any other way."
I'm not sitting over here angry and fuming I have to wear a tie. Personally, I like ties. I don't think you should get to be judged for your choice of attire, is all.
How many times do we need to tell you this? It's not the tie you're being judged on, it's the fact you choose to disregard social customs in specific situations.
Also, what kind of weird dig was "still in college"? Talk about judging people...
Buying my first nice suit and I was looking at brooks brothers. Dont have enough for bespoke but as far as off the rack goes is that a good choice.
No, I'm saying that it's one of my focuses in college (Social/Cultural Anthropology) so I probably have a little better grasp on the subject than you do.
And yes, life and people are silly sometimes and don't make a ton of sense. But, isn't that what makes them wonderful? Look, it's a system that's in place and one that I think you're worrying way too much about it. There are other far more grave things happening here and in other places to get worked up about.
I for one love the custom of getting dressed up for certain places and occasions. I like looking really nice. I love the ritual.
Every culture has its own set of rules and norms. It's a fact of life. Great, you don't like it. Let's move on. There were tons of things I didn't like when I was in France for a term, but I just did as they did and let it roll off my back.
No, it makes them irrational and wasteful. And yes, I too have taken social and cultural anthropology courses. So perhaps you do and perhaps you don't. But it doesn't fucking matter. You're supposed to discuss regardless, not say "Well, I know more, so you should stop trying to discuss it."
Yes, because people aren't perfect. We're an irrational and wasteful species. And that's not what I said at all, I'm just filling you in on where I'm coming from here. I just don't understand what you're trying to discuss. All you keep saying is "This is silly and serves no purpose." which is completely false. It's one of the many things that define us. If we went through and picked out all things from our culture which didn't really serve a utilitarian purpose...well, I don't even know.
And like other people said, while matters of race and gender are tightly woven into a lot of these behaviors, this is not the topic to discuss them. This is where we talk about the hats.
Yeah, hats. Can't stand them. I think they look goofy on me, but I don't begrudge others for wearing them. Except inside. Philistines.
Me too. Going to work is not my first choice in the morning, but feeling like I look good and seeing other people in their trench coats and great coats and nice scarves is a pick me up when I first get to the office. It makes me feel like I work with people who take pride in themselves and their jobs.
The real trouble with hats now is knowing what kind to wear and when to wear them. Wearing a fedora without at least a suit and trench coat is often very silly looking, but even then, it's a very personal style decision, since they are no longer just part of business garb. But nothing makes you look worse than wearing one indoors. It makes you look deliberately rude or just ignorant of how to wear it.
I personally find social mannerism in western culture to be a little too far into the extroverted side, so I can understand the desire for more polite behaviour. I'm just not comfortable implying that there exists an actual phenomenon of depreciating standards.
This is pretty much how I see most people wearing hats nowadays...
...and it's just bad.
I love the fits that certain dialects throw prescriptivists into. Luckily, those people exist only outside of the realm of professional linguists.
Well then your office needs to take a cue from the Desert Fox:
Thread Godwinned.
Didn't see this answered
@mrt144 Honestly, to me fit is most important, followed by fabric (this goes for everything I wear really)
I'm a really thin dude, and Brooks Brothers (and Hugo Boss) seems to lean to a stockier build off the rack, so I've never actually bought one. Fabric wise they are pretty decent. Try to get at least 120s if its wool
tl;dr: if it fits you well in the shoulders and chest, get it and have it tailored
I would also add that you might get a nice Burberry, Abound, etc suit at an outlet like off Saks or Nordstrom rack (Barneys is best if you have one) which you could then have your tailor alter. You can get some very nice cloth that way. Pair whatever you buy with nice shoes (colehaan can be a good choice, since a lot of their designs are stolen from ferragmo). A nice fitted shirt, and a nice tie, and you will look like you spent much more than you did. I also reccomend Seiko if you want a cheap dress watch that doesn't look cheap.
I agree that Brooks Brothers off the rack is wide in the chest, and yet, their pants run a little small in the waist. Pretty nice stuff though, if the fit works for you.
Yeah, I honestly can't answer for Brooks Brothers. I've heard the J. Crew suits aren't too bad for the price. What are you looking to spend?
Point being, shoddily trying to affect an entire look by referring to just a scant few parts of the look will not the proper job do. Actually what happens is that you look like a giant doofus or giant douchebag, depending on the context of the item. Wearing a cool fedora with a printed tee and pleated jeans? You look like a senile dork. Wearing a scarf indoors during the summer? Poser-ific douchenozzle.
If you want to look cool like the guys from LA Noire or Mad Men, YOU NEED TO LOOK LIKE THOSE GUYS DO. And those guys don't wear tee shirts in public, or have shaggy unkempt hair, scuzzy goatees, or wear weird shoes, or have a ton of piercings. They're clean shaven, wear smart well-tailored suits, and their outfits always match. You looking like Jeff Tweedy's smellier zombie twin brother isn't going to improve by donning a fancy hat or expensive vest; it will, however, make you look like a pretentious ass.
How much weight are you looking to lose? Is that 190 a lot of muscle, cause it seems kinda high for your height?
I disagree that its completely false, and that it really defines us. We currently do use it as a way to define people, but I'm arguing that we'd be better off if we didn't do that and it wouldn't be at the expense of our cultural identity. I see no need to judge others by their outward appearance. I feel as if the social custom to do so is harmful, rather than a positive contribution to society. If we, instead of thumbing our noses at people based on their dress, but instead waited to see their actions or hear their words to dismiss them, we'd be better off. The first action you choose may be to choose your clothing, but I don't think your choice of clothing should influence the opinion others have of you. That is what I am trying to discuss.
There seems to be this emerging attitude in the US that price tag dictates decorum, and that anything that looks a fucking mess can be appropriate attire for almost any occasion as long as the look is visibly expensive. A tee shirt and skinny jeans on a guy is a terrible look for any day out, but if it's an Armani Exchange v-neck and Kenneth Cole jeans, well, come on into the State Funeral, Mr. Ambassador.
People in the UK, especially in country estate setting north of London, wear fairly toned down overcoats and blazers of wool and tweed. And they're often expensive, but just as often not, and you don't see botoxed housewives out and about in yoga pants and a neon Juicy Couture sweatshirt.