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[PATV] CheckPoint Season 1, Ep. 44 - Foot X Mouth
Kathleen_LRR
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Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/#!/kathleen_LRR
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Google+: http://gplus.to/kathleen
Cat Comic: http://thingsmycathates.tumblr.com
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I had assumed that this was people hiding behind the anonymity of the internet and being a douche... And yet here is someone claiming that the worst of this is acceptable and in fact worth fighting for.
I thought your On Point was a very good rebuttal, Kathleen. Though honestly the goose deserved a lot more swearing at.
[rant]
Why do people feel the need to take things above trash talking (depreciating someone's skill), and turn it into insults about race/sex/sexual orientation/weight/age/etc? The trash talking is moderately horrible to begin with, but the rest is just unnecessary. If you want to do that in your own little club (like your ACTUAL little club in your own basement), that's okay, as long as everyone involved is cool with it. When you're out in the public, it's not your little club anymore.
The gaming community is trying to shed an image of being a bunch of socially repressed juvenile idiots. But a lot of the coverage we get is of the socially repressed juvenile idiots spouting their mouth off. In Sports I see alot of the same situations, but they've put rules in place... and even if it doesn't stop some Football(Soccer) player spouting racial profanity at other players, at least he gets suspended for it. Why would we not have anti-racism/sexism rules in tournaments? Let the people who believe it's their club go off to their basements or the internet to play, I say.[/rant]
Boosh.
And is it any wonder why I avoid competitive multiplayer? (speaking as a white male myself)
This is just the thing though. The majority of people who aren't geese are faced with either tolerating the horrible behaviour or else going off to their own private clubs to play with their friends, who are not douches (hopefully). Isn't that bass ackwards?
Bethesda's thing reminded me of the way they began development on Oblivion far in advance of the existence of hardware that could run it. So, Elder Scrolls 6?
It was important to us that I didn't just devolve into yelling at the idiot, because in Paul's words, I wouldn't be yelling at him, I'd actually be yelling at CheckPoint viewers, who probably agreed with me.
Google+: http://gplus.to/kathleen
Cat Comic: http://thingsmycathates.tumblr.com
You struck a healthy balance, I'd say.
I'm really glad at the response this story has been getting. I wouldn't go so far as to assume things are actually going to get better now, but it's refreshing to see so much the gaming community outraged by this. Perhaps this sort of thing won't be tolerated at major events anymore. I mean, it's possible, right?
I prefer a sequel. If it means they're taking the story seriously in the main releases now.
Also I quite enjoyed the on point and am ( not quite ) shocked that the guy looks like a lot like a troll. and not even like a Warcraft troll with a rich and varied history. Like a Tolkein one.
I was going to comment on how good they looked in this episode all of a sudden.
Kathleen - have you done something different with your, er... ears?
Edit: Also, 'taupe". Awesome.
I want to start this off with the point that the stream of filth that merited the on-point reaction was completely inappropriate.
I agree with the need for Tournament rules against racism and sexism, not so much about trash talking and we need to be mature enough to get past a profanity filter.
In any other sport though, you'll find trash talking everywhere. It's before games and after them, heck, most of the time it's during the match as well. If you put a microphone on Mohammad Ali you'd find him trash talking his way through every boxing match. You'd find American Football players trash talking each other on the line of scrimmage. You'll find rugby players trashing each other all over the place. Trash talk, to the extent of trashing someone's skills, is a part of the psychological method in games and sports. "Teabagging" in video games is roughly equivalent to the touchdown dance or the victory celebration. Yeah, it has no merit to it, it's just part of how people play the game. I think we need to be mature enough to just move past it and, if we don't like it, realize that it's just someone crouching a lot and is completely ridiculous in itself.
You might want to make the tiny text a bit bigger. I was about to rant at you because I couldn't see it.
STEAM
You mispelled awesome.
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/foot-x-mouth
I'm not here to argue whether or not sexual harassment is not acceptable; on the contrary, I believe it is not.
Let me repeat that again, for emphasis:I'm not here to argue whether or not sexual harassment is not acceptable; on the contrary, I believe it is not.
Instead, I would like to discuss is whether it was an act of sexism/misogyny instead of simply rude behavior that is often applied to both sexes. I'm going to ask you to hear me out on this one, and open your mind to ideas that may be new to some of us:
Consider the drill sergeant in the military movie Full Metal Jacket, who screams to his recruit (link below), "I bet you're the kind of guy who would f*ck a person in the *ss and not even have the godd*mn common courtesy to give him a reach-around." Male-on-male harassment of this type has occurred in the military to "break-in" new recruits for...well, forever. See the link here:
When women began to join the armed forces as actual fighters, they encountered this language and freaked. "It's an epidemic! Women are singled out for sexual harassment in the military!" they screamed. But they weren't complaining about something that specifically targeted women, as they claimed; they were complaining about something men had been going through all along. It was only when it began to target women that it was labeled as "sexism" and "unacceptable harassment."
And such, in my experience and analysis, is often the case in gaming. Especially high-end gaming, be it Quake III, Halo, WoW, Warcraft 3, or whatever. I can't count the number of times I've been called a "fag" or a "d*ckless [insert random insult here]" when I popped a grenade in someone, or capped the flag, or pulled off a deceitful move for the win. Everyone is sexually harassed in the gaming community. I don't believe this type of abuse is not female-centric; rather, I believe our recognition of it as abuse is female-centric.
Our society often reflexively thinks that if anything bad happens to a woman - acts which regularly happen to both sexes for all sorts of reasons - it must be misogyny. If a woman is hit, it must be misogyny. If a woman loses a job, it must be misogyny. If a woman is not respected, it must be misogyny. If a woman is sexually harassed, it must be misogyny. Let's reverse the sexes and see if it sounds plausible. If a man is hit, is it automatically sexism against men (misandry)? If a man loses a job, or is not respected, is it automatically misandry? If a man is sexually harassed, is it automatically misandry? No, of course not, because these are not gender issues; they happen to everyone, and for reasons unrelated to sex, all the time. I don't believe any form of abuse directed at women is automatically a form of sexism any more than it is when it is directed at men. Of course it very well could be the case; it is not, however, always the case. In the case of this PA video, I would likely be able to see how what Bakhtanians originally said (not his defense of what he said) was an act of misogyny, if we were supplied with the original quote. But we are not supplied with it, or at least not in the video by Kathleen DeVere. The inclusion of this original quote would greatly help.
A friend of mine commented on Facebook that misogynists like Bakhtanians are what give male gamers a bad rap by those who spend a lot of time talking about gender issues. I don't believe this to be primarily the case (although misogyny may indeed be part of the reason). My reasoning is this: those who spend a lot of time talking about "misogyny" tend to vehemently read prejudice into male-only spaces where men are overwhelmingly represented because of that fact alone. The military, the gaming community, certain areas of the workforce...all of them are looked upon as breeding grounds for misogyny not just because of what is said or done there, but sometimes simply because they are mostly men in those spaces. In reality, gaming communities often double as more or less emotional support groups for men, which has the inevitable effect of reducing men's emotional dependence on women (and hence, reducing women's power over men). And anything that gives men power is not something often trusted by those who dislike "systems of male power" and spend much time talking about "misogyny."
Thanks for your time.
I managed to make it up to here before the urge to kill myself became overwhelming.
STEAM
You also managed to make it up to there without making any counter-argument. Allow me to explain a little more, then, and perhaps you can think up something in the meantime.
Perhaps you are not very well acquainted with controlling partners who begrudge their significant others any time with their friends. They behave in very much the same way: their partner's emotional investment is seen as a threat to their monopoly over their emotional investments. It's a power game.
Historically, men were supposed to be "masculine" and never show emotional vulnerability. Women were supposed to be "feminine" and empathetic. What this essentially means is that many men, who had no emotional support system, were in many cases emotionally dependent on their wives to empathize with them. But in our modern times, with marriage having become less of the norm and with people marrying far later, men (who have been taught all along that showing emotional vulnerability is bad) must look elsewhere for their support groups. This could also help explain why 80% of suicides are of men.
Thankfully, one of those great support groups to crop up is the gaming community. In WoW, for example, I've seen lots of online friends show care and concern for their fellow man, whether it be helping bolster their spirits for a job chance, a death in the family, a job loss, etc. It's certainly needed in our supposedly modern age.
STEAM
Close. What I'm saying is that while he may very well be a woman hater, I don't believe we are given enough information. And in truth, I'm not trying to convince anyone. Feel free to believe whatever you like. I'm simply stating, as yet, that I remain unconvinced by DeVere.
I am very well-versed in Feminist concept of sexual harassment. The concept was pioneered by Catharine MacKinnon, a Radical Feminist, in her book The Sexual Harassment of Working Women. Catharine MacKinnon is the same Feminist who would say "All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." Ah, yes - the all men are rapists school of Feminism. The Feminist construct of sexual harassment is, like most Feminist policies, oversimplified and one-sided in that it does not female-on-male forms of abuse, and its pioneers and leading advocates of that concept cannot look beyond the lens of gender politics to understand that some people do bad things for all sorts of reasons, misogyny being only one of them.
I'm not going to even address the rest of your "argument," as you don't point to any specific examples of what I said and argue against it, and are simply retreating into your dogmatic turtle shell and pretending like it's my job to convince you. Well, unless I happen to have miscommunicated, let me clarify: whether you believe me or not is none of my concern. I'm simply stating that as yet, I remain unconvinced by DeVere. Being the person to make the original argument, the burden of proof falls upon DeVere to convince her audience, not on me to discredit DeVere.
TCM: Start a thread in D&D. You will find your argument there.
second, for all of your sophistry, your argument is reducible to two points: 1) misogyny is defined as "all things that are bad that happen solely to women"; and 2) male-dominated spaces like the gaming community are excused when it comes to sexual harassment and gender bias precisely because they are male dominated.
your arguments are strawmen.
they're also logically fallacious in other ways, but let's assume for the moment that you actually believe you've made a rational point. you're arguing that when women raise claims of misogynist behavior, they're merely crying wolf. you cite Full Metal Jacket, of all movies, as your proof: "see! guys do it to guys too, so it MUST be okay!"
it's NOT ok. it is NOT ok when a man insults another man using gender identity. it is NOT ok when a man uses homophobic language to berate another. criticize someone for not successfully doing drills or exercises. berate them for not practicing with their firearms or combat techniques. but do NOT conflate criticisms of meritorious behavior with attacks on someone's gender or sex or based on gender or sex. accepting such insults sends two messages: 1) that it's perfectly alright to attack someone not for the merit of their chosen actions but on their identity, and 2) that being a woman or being gay is somehow inherently wrong.
b-b-b-b-but there's this angry feminist author who writes outrageous things and therefore i must be right! nope, just another strawman. regardless of the accuracy of MacKinnon's position, you ignore the base underlying problem: it is NOT ok, even in places where men happen to be the majority, to insult and debase on the basis of gender, sex, or other fundamental parts of a person's identity. one author's position does not lend your argument validity nor invalidate the whole. it's a strawman you have set up.
last point: gamers generally (and i mean generally, because it is clearly not the case that all gamers want to give up their boys' club just yet) want to welcome women, gay people, transgender folks, and others into gaming. gamers who are already part of the community will either have to accept that the "old ways" must be cut up, buried, and burned, or that gamers will continue to be just a juvenile group of stereotypically socially maladjusted boys. your argument all but screams that you are fine or even want the latter. it does NOT make a good point for why such behavior is acceptable or wanted.
steam | Dokkan: 868846562
that's just wrong, dude.
this TCM fellow will get TORN UP in D&D!
steam | Dokkan: 868846562
Google+: http://gplus.to/kathleen
Cat Comic: http://thingsmycathates.tumblr.com
My first thought about the Full Metal Jacket example:
fightinfilipino: ""see! guys do it to guys too, so it MUST be okay!"
Actually I said the exact opposite. Here, try to read this. I know it hurts rubbing your only two brain cells together, but please try, if only to improve your sad excuse for reading skills:
Me: "I'm not here to argue whether or not sexual harassment is not acceptable; on the contrary, I believe it is not. Let me repeat that again, for emphasis: I'm not here to argue whether or not sexual harassment is not acceptable; on the contrary, I believe it is not."
I even repeated myself, upfront, to make it easy on braindead idiots like yourself, but you still failed the literacy test and launched into hysterics anyway. The entire rest of your argument is based on me saying the exact opposite of what I said twice, and then arguing against it. Hence, the only person strawmanning is you. Also, if I were you I would not lecture me on my "pseudointellectual writing style;" once you have learned how to read basic texts, maybe then you can learn how to critique style. Until then, don't get too far ahead of yourself, and stay in school.
And Kathleen:
Thank you for the executive summary. In this case I do agree with you that it was sexual harassment, but only after you provided the critical context of what he originally said. I'd like to remind you, for your own benefit, that neglecting to provide original quotes makes your presentation look very suspicious, regardless as to whether Google is anyone's friend or not. We all know that just because it can be Googled doesn't mean it's true. There's a lot of overpoliticized media frauds running around, and they tend to give us all good reason to be skeptical.
I would also like to thank you for your more direct "just the facts" response to my post. That's all I have to say.
Caio.
Ohferchristssake. You are the silliest of silly geese.
you say it right here. you insert a strawman. you say you're against sexual harassment but immediately claim that many issues, including sexual harassment, is not misogyny. YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT is premised on this notion, that everyone insults everyone, so it's ok. you still haven't even justified why male-male gender/sex harassment and attacks are even justifiable. frankly, your posts smack of Ladder Theory bs. did i hit the mark?
also, i don't normally pull rank like this, but i've got a nasty cold and i'm mildly pissed off: i'm a lawyer. i deal with BS arguments like yours on a daily basis and see right through them like a pane of glass. i have completed quite a few years of schooling, and, fascinatingly enough, part of that education delved into U.S. Constitutional Law and the underpinnings of gender and sex equality in the United States. i daresay i am pretty qualified to discuss this issue. i also see highfalutin language in motions and briefs and instantly conclude that the underlying argument likely has no substance. it is a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
if you've got some form of equivalent schooling or life experience, more power to you. say something to the effect that i should go back to school, and i: 1) classify you as a troll and 2) loudly wonder why you're avoiding the argument: explain why such attacks are acceptable at all.
steam | Dokkan: 868846562
and yes, while google results do not necessarily lead to facts, i trust you know the actual freaking video of Bakhtanians being a jerk is on the web. or the tweets he initially posted trying to justify his behavior. in this case, the ball is in your court to somehow disprove LRR, because LRR has a practice and reputation for trustworthiness.
steam | Dokkan: 868846562
Sometimes sexual harassment is misogyny, sometimes it isn't. That's all I said. You misinterpreted it. That's not at all the same as saying sexual harassment is ok. Hitting people is bad. Sometimes people hit others because of race/sex/class, but not always. The same holds true with sexual harassment.
For your information - and you'd think a lawyer would understand this - sexual harassment doesn't have to involve language that addresses female body parts, or the social construct of femininity, at all. Simply saying "you landed a nice promotion today" can be considered a form of sexual harassment if the person being spoken to feels uncomfortable. I suppose you'll tell me that's "misogyny" too?
I'm fairly well-versed in Feminist Jurisprudence myself. Spend less time talking about your CV and more time trying to pinpoint where I said sexual harassment is "ok" as opposed to where I said "sexual harassment is sometimes but not always misogyny," and then maybe you'll have a point.
Actually the ball is not in my court to disprove LRR, because it was never my intent to disprove LRR to begin with. It was merely my intent to say "I remain unconvinced as yet, and here's why." This is not the same as arguing or debating; it is simply clarifying my position.
Which is actually another thing I said more than once, which you apparently have not picked up on.
no, you don't use the words "these things are ok". to your credit, you have enough intelligence for that. but then your argument goes and implies that "misogyny is fictional" and that a bunch of male gamers yelling denigrating epithets at each other are a "support group", something generally considered "positive". you reveal exactly what it is that you are at.
at this point, i recognize i'm just feeding the troll. i'm done.
steam | Dokkan: 868846562
Actually, I never implied misogyny was fictional. You inferred it.
Nor did I imply that sexual harassment was a positive quality of an emotional support group. You inferred that as well.
And with that, I'm done.