[Hero Academy] Now on Steam with the TF2 Team! (PA League now actually works!)

wonderpug

Brew wrote: »

I can only dare @wonderpug it seems... Can't challenge anyone else. Wanna have at it @wonderpug?

As soon as we finish our current two matches, sure, let's have the next one be league.

susan wrote: »

Any word on an Android version of this coming out? Just got me a Tablet and wanna give it a go.

They've said they're working on it but I haven't heard an expected release date.

Jacoby

Brew wrote: »

I can only dare @wonderpug it seems... Can't challenge anyone else. Wanna have at it @wonderpug?

It also shows a link to "Enter results" next to Norman Tran's name on the ladder even though I am not playing a game against him. Unless I've been challenged and do not know about it. His profile says DesertChicken. Who's Norman Tran? I'll start a game!

According to the ladder wall, you haven't been challenged. I've got to say, this is all rather weird. You should be able to dare people above you. Otherwise, the ladder is useless.

I think the previous challenges are interfering with the ability to dare. I've got it set that you can only challenge people who are 3 spots above you, and 2 of those people are in a challenge. The other is @DesertChicken (who should really change his alias!). Can you dare him? Because you should be able to.

On that note, does anyone know of another web service for running ladder leagues? I don't want to have to switch, but...

wonderpug

Brew & I are ranked 8 & 9 in the ladder, both showing no active challenges, but I don't see a way to challenge him. All I have for actions next to him is "Enter Result".

Jacoby

I was hoping multiple challenges would be easier, but it looks like single challenges is the way to go for now. Unless I hear objections, I'm going to change it back to the way it was before.

Brew

so this is what I see:

I think the ladder is automatically assuming that you are automatically challenging the person directly below you. @DesertChicken challenging me because FallenKwisatz is already in a fight with @corin7. That's why I get the Enter Result button.
It assumes I challenged wonderpug since he's directly below me and asks him to enter result.

I guess that's ok... I'll start a game with @DesertChicken and @wonderpug will start a game with me.

Wonder if @TheEarl is seeing Enter Result next to @Grillaface.

Jacoby

I'm beginning to think it might be best not to use a ladder. They work best when players can only play one game at a time. I did some research, and I think Hero Academy's closer to chess. I'm working out a method of doing a rating system based on the Elo system used by the major chess organizations, and I think I might have something. I'll check back in later.

Jacoby

Okay, so I wrote up a spreadsheet that should let me organize things with minimal effort. Here's how it would work:

• Anyone who wanted to join would just post here and @mention me (like this: @Jacoby).
• Players would also post challenges and results here. I'd check the thread daily (most often) and enter them into my spreadsheet. (This would probably be a good place to use the forum mention feature, so I don't miss anything.)
• Players could play multiple games, but could reject a challenge if they've got 5 League games running. (Don't want to burn anyone out!)
• Everyone has an Elo-style rating (like in chess).
• For now, everyone would start with a 1200 rating (just to get things started). Those who finished games before switching to this method would get an updated rating based on their completed games.
• Later, players who start would be unrated until they played 5 games, then their rating would be based on the average opponent rating with a correction factor for their result (relative to a 50% win assumption)
• Every 4 weeks, I'd update the ratings based on games finished in the last 4 weeks, and post the new ratings here.

If anyone wants to see the math I'd use for this, I can post it here. It's pretty close to what FIDE uses, but a little modified. I can say that ratings would be calculated based on starting ratings for the rating period, not the ratings you had when the game started. It's the best way I can think of to simplify the effect of having players finish some games faster than others.

Let me know what you think!

kime

4 weeks is maybe too long in between updates?

Beyond that, sign me up, @Jacoby. I can't wait to get my first points after beating you :P

Jacoby

I'm just thinking in terms of how long a game takes, on average, to finish. Maybe 2 weeks?

Yeah, I may have run my mouth off a bit. I've realized that Tribe needs to have its healers out. Otherwise, the fact that you don't stomp to avoid the Rage effect doesn't help me at all.

kime

I don't think Tribe has items that rez, even? That may be wrong, but yeah, much less need to stomp when there's no healer.

Jacoby

I don't suppose stomping your own corpses works?

wonderpug

Well this has been an interesting match:

initiatefailure

i don't know what to say... but i am impressed... i think

schmads

@Jacoby I naturally want to be in the new ladder that you're working up. FallenKwisatz is my HA name. corin7 and I haven't finished our game yet, but I'll post results when we do.

I have found that since The Tribe and The Dwarves don't have healing items, it means that you really need to play conservatively until you can get a healer out there. It doesn't feel "fair," since the Council and Elves both have rez items, but I don't think that's a fair evaluation of balance, I just get annoyed when I don't have any healers to put out for a while. Not that it matters against wonderpug, who clearly hates my clerics (good win)!

wonderpug

They do have the haunch of meat and the beer for healing (hey should join together for a party!) but yeah, no resurrection items.

The Earl

I've managed to work with the dwarves lack of rez items. Just keep those pally's within reach of each other, and use the brewskis and you should be okay. But I will agree, the dwarves are very dependent on a good hand. Finding myself with 2 or more engineers in the beginning generally puts a dark cloud over my head.

I think the balance so far is pretty good between teams. Some teams lack the rez item, another team damage item, etc. Balance is a tricky thing because if it gets to be too balanced then the teams will be identical.

I will say though, I think the one thing people were really hoping for in the update was a ranged stomp for the dwarves. Especially after they reduced the splash damage from grenadiers making it slightly more difficult to crystal rush.

Brew

@jacoby please sign me up. My game with wonderpug from the ladder dare is still ongoing.
@wonderpug that screenshot you posted is disgusting. It offends my sensibilities on so many levels. But your self restraint to keep building an army rather than just win the game outright is scary. Like a cat torturing a mouse...

Jacoby

Remember the episode of the Simpsons where Marge starts a pretzel cart?
And it ends with the Mafia fighting the Yakuza?
And there's that one guy in white, just standing there?
And Homer doesn't want to leave because he knows that guy's going to do something really awesome?

@wonderpug is that guy.

Jacoby

I've edited the OP to show the new League details now that I'm just going to run it myself. It should work much better that way. Make sure to check it out! I'll copy/paste the important stuff here later.

Wishpig

I'm ONE game away from a perfect game history, all my other games are on hold until this one game hits the 7 day mark and I get the automatic win. All Dwarf victories too! (I'm a move away from winning with a human team, but I want my perfect 10 to be all Dwarves.)

I know I shouldn't be so hyped, it's not a big deal...but pre-patch my history was composed of 9 losses and 1 win... so this makes me a very happy panda.

Jacoby

Here are those new League details I promised:

How do I join the League?
Just make a post in here! You will need to:

• at-mention me (@Jacoby) so I'll get notified of the post!
• add !join to your post so I won't miss it. (That's the "color=green" code, by the way.)
• add your Hero Academy name

You'll start the League with no rating until you finish 5 games.

What if I want to play, but not in the League?
Just post your HA name here, and I'll add it to the "Other Players" list.

How do I start a game with someone?

• Again, just make a post in here. It will need to at-mention both me (@Jacoby) and the other player, and have !challenge in the post (using "color=red" code).
• If you have a lower rank than the other player and they have less than 5 League games ongoing, you should also start the game in Hero Academy. It's good form to use the chat feature to say that it's a PA League game. (Thanks to The Earl for this idea!)
• If you have a higher rank than the other player or otherwise need to wait (i.e. the other player has 5 or more League games ongoing), just wait for the other player to either start the game, or forfeit in fear of your obvious tactical prowess.

So when the game is done...
You make a post here! It'll need:

• add !result to the post (using "color=orange" code)
• at-mention me (@Jacoby)
• name the other player, and who won

We really like game report details, so feel free to add them! Screenshots and trash talk are also appreciated.

How do the ratings work?
It's based on the Elo chess player ratings system used by FIDE. The difference between ratings gives an idea of the probability of winning or losing, and wins and losses are worth more points if the result is unlikely.
Ratings are updated every 2 weeks on Saturday based on game reports sent in by midnight Friday night/Saturday morning (Grenwich Mean Time).
If you want the full math behind the ratings, see the opening posts.

Any special rules I should know?
Game Limit:

• If you're currently playing 4 or less games, you must play a game when you're challenged or forfeit (aka lose).
• If you're playing 5 or more games, you can choose to deny the challenge.

Turn Time Limits:

• A player forfeits their game if their last move was 7 days ago.
• If this happens to you, take a screenshot of your game list in case we need it as proof
• If a player thinks they'll need an extension, they need to let me know ahead of time. This can be by PM or just posting here.
• Remember that games automatically end with you losing if you're inactive for 14 days. Extensions here can't stop that.

Allowable Teams:
The following teams are currently allowed.

• Council
• Dark Elves
• Dwarves
• Tribe

You don't have to buy a team, but expect to play against them.
Starting Player:

• The lower ranked player starts the game, whether they've been dared or have dared another player.
• No first turn action handicap is currently required.

I'm going to go do some recruiting (especially of the people who were in the tournament). It's time we got some fresh meat!

wonderpug

<deep breath in...>

notifying @Jacoby !
I want to !join
Hero Academy name is wonderpug

Just to be clear, I'm at-mentioning @Jacoby ! as well as @Brew ! who hasn't joined yet but I have a hunch he will soon! I !challenge him!

And if you want some preliminary results from a match we started on that other tourney website...

@Jacoby ! I mention you!
I played Brew, Tribe vs. Tribe, and the !result was that I lost! Big time!

We were on the teleporter map, and I think both still figuring out our Tribe strategies. Neither of us were going for crystals for a while, which is odd for Brew, and I seemed to be pulling ahead in the unit attrition battle. But then, Brew had some great witch moves with the central attack boost square, and the tide (nyuk nyuk, typhoon reference) had turned. Pretty much an inevitable downhill spiral from there.

One seemingly innocuous move on Brew's part that I think was a game changer was a typhoon he used that did nothing other than push my units backward. It didn't set him up for a surprise kill or anything, but since it pushed back four of my well-placed troops it was pretty much the equivalent of him stealing an entire turn of mine, given how long it would take me to put everyone back in place. It also delayed my claim to my tile damage square, my upgraded axe thrower's threatening position, my chieftan's threat of a charge attack, and whatever my bottom unit was's threat to Brew's forward crystal.

wonderpug

</breath out>

kime

Who dares challenge me?

Jacoby

wonderpug wrote: »

Just to be clear, I'm at-mentioning @Jacoby ! as well as @Brew ! who hasn't joined yet but I have a hunch he will soon! I !challenge him!

Oh, he's here. Hey @Brew? You gonna take that shit?

wonderpug wrote: »

And if you want some preliminary results from a match we started on that other tourney website...

@Jacoby ! I mention you!
I played Brew, Tribe vs. Tribe, and the !result was that I lost! Big time!

We were on the teleporter map, and I think both still figuring out our Tribe strategies. Neither of us were going for crystals for a while, which is odd for Brew, and I seemed to be pulling ahead in the unit attrition battle. But then, Brew had some great witch moves with the central attack boost square, and the tide (nyuk nyuk, typhoon reference) had turned. Pretty much an inevitable downhill spiral from there.

One seemingly innocuous move on Brew's part that I think was a game changer was a typhoon he used that did nothing other than push my units backward. It didn't set him up for a surprise kill or anything, but since it pushed back four of my well-placed troops it was pretty much the equivalent of him stealing an entire turn of mine, given how long it would take me to put everyone back in place. It also delayed my claim to my tile damage square, my upgraded axe thrower's threatening position, my chieftan's threat of a charge attack, and whatever my bottom unit was's threat to Brew's forward crystal.

Great game report! This is the kind of thing I'd love to see more of. A little wired seeing subtlety from Tribe, though...

rockmonkey

@Jacoby Thanks for the PM, I've been meaning to !join the new league. My in game name is rockmonkey

Brew

notifying @Jacoby!
I want to !join
Hero Academy name is Noguru
Yay copy and paste, thanks @wonderpug

re: @wonderpug's !challange. Ahem: @wonderpug My Mighty Dwarves will murder your midget team and piss on your crystals.

I also !challenge @Jacoby. And I !challenge @TheEarl. let's get this thing rolling!

EDIT: forgot to add the colors :P

Brew

Oh and gg wonderpug. That was great game we had. Kudos to you for taking 3 turns to start the match. *salute*

Theodore Floosevelt

Just getting back into the Academy after a semester away, totally into playing some regular games with non-randoms.

So! @Jacoby

I would very much like to !join ze league.

Hero Academy name is eelMeetch

Jacoby

Welcome to the League, @Theodore Floosevelt and @rockmonkey. You're unrated now, but you'll get a rating when you've played 5 games.

Welcome again, @Brew! Nice trash talk. As League Commissioner and Head Instigator, I'd just like to say:

Hey, @wonderpug? You gonna take that shit?

kime

@Jacoby

I !challenge @Theodore Floosevelt

I !challenge @rockmonkey

Let's do this!

wonderpug

Brew wrote: »

Oh and gg wonderpug. That was great game we had. Kudos to you for taking 3 turns to start the match. *salute*

For the record, I have my game set to give me 4 action first turns, not 3.

Kind of interesting, though, the folks from the "official" league that posts on the game's main forums are reporting that rankings do only even out if the first turn goer is limited to 3AP, not 4AP. I was expecting 4AP to be enough of a first turn handicap, but at least for now, the statistics suggest otherwise. For now, though, I'm sticking to 4AP for my own started matches.

Jacoby

When this was going to be a ladder, I toyed with having a sliding scale for first turn actions. If you challenged someone 3 spots above, you'd get all 5, but challenging someone only 1 spot above means you could only take 3.

Do you think it works better with keeping 5 first turn actions, but having the lower rated player go first? Or should we have a first turn action adjustment? (Could have a sliding scale there, but that might be too complicated...)

wonderpug

I vote for keeping things as simple as possible for now. I think our group is much more interested in having fun than in being accurately ranked. You set up the rules to have the lower ranked player go first, and I think that's enough all on its own. At worst, it turns into a handicap that makes the match closer and more interesting for both parties.

schmads

@Jacoby you have probably already got me, but just in case, I would like to !join
Hero academy name is FallenKwisatz.

I am accepting any challenges (feel free to just start the game and take first turn), and after I finish my current games against wonderpug and brew, I plan to challenge them, so that I can get started with as low a rating as possible

initiatefailure

i just want to clear out some of the games I have going on right now but I will make an exception for PA games. I must warn you though,

I'm not good

Jacoby

I just wanted to check if your challenges are already started, or if you're waiting for the other player to start the game.
I've added a rule that if your ratings are equal, you can start the game.
The only times you need to wait for the other player to start the game are when you're the higher rated player, or when the other player has 5 or more games ongoing.

I'm wondering if it might be easier to say that the challenger always starts...

kime

Jacoby wrote: »

I just wanted to check if your challenges are already started, or if you're waiting for the other player to start the game.
I've added a rule that if your ratings are equal, you can start the game.
The only times you need to wait for the other player to start the game are when you're the higher rated player, or when the other player has 5 or more games ongoing.

I'm wondering if it might be easier to say that the challenger always starts...

I believe I have all of my challenges going right now.

Theodore Floosevelt

Dear @Jacoby

I hereby !challenge... @Jacoby

dun dun dun

Jacoby

Theodore Floosevelt wrote: »

Dear @Jacoby

I hereby !challenge... @Jacoby

dun dun dun

Well, then.

(This shit) ≠ sqrt(-1)

Mathematically speaking.