I'm going to err on the side of you being silly, and simply say that I think you misread "singling-out" as "comparing"...
You're saying you want to do a 1v1 comparison late-game, but in what late games do any roles go 1v1? It should all be grouped roaming late-game. Your argument is as strong as trying to SORT before you CREATE in SQL.
No. I am saying we want to compare the abilities of the champions against each other as to how they compare in the various aspects of the game. We aren't saying "line these champions up and shoot at each other" we are saying "all things equal this champion is stronger in this point of the game"
And that is absolutely true. Cait has a weak lategame, she has a weak lategame not because she is a bad dueler, but because she has low DPS compared to the other carries and doesn't have the utility to back it up like Ashe does.
DIggin up old shit because I just came back to the forums.
I just fail to see how you aren't getting the point.
It's great to compare your carries in laning phase. I get that. But late-game is NEVER part of the laning phase.
Early game? Yeah. It's you and your support vs the enemy AD carry and their support.
Mid game? It's possible. This is the time where you gotta play it smart. One bad call, and your tower will go down. When towers start going down, that's when team fights and late game begins!
If you're still laning during late game...you've got a problem.
Also, I may not be a pro, but Caitlyn should be able to kill most other AD carries early and mid game fairly well. Even with a full build, I normally don't lose a showdown. But maybe people are just either bad at playing Caitlyn, or bad at utilizing her full span of abilities correctly.
So, we can compare carries in the laning phase. And we can compare carries in the team fight phase. No one was saying cait wasn't a good laner, they were saying that Cait was less strong than other AD carries in the lategame. I.E. she teamfights worse than Vayne/Kogmaw/Ashe/Graves etc.
Unless you are saying we can't compare champions in the lategame? Like that doesn't make sense to me at all. We all have had those games were we get stomped early, but have a better lategame than the other team because the champions are stronger in teams fights/have more synergy and go on to win[and of course the opposite ]
But I am saying that we can compare champions in the lategame, just like we can compare them in any part of the game. We can say "Yorick is a good Laner, but doesn't bring much to the table after that unless your carry is fed" or "Caitlyn is a really bully in lane, but has a weak lategame compared to other AD carries"
You can compare them in the late game, but there's just a lot more than just AD (plus support) vs AD (plus support). You've got Team A v Team B in the late game. There is no AD comparison (assuming you're giving equal items to both AD carries, and god knows what other roles were filled mid, top, jungle, and support).
KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
So. WotA versus Spirit Visage on Swain.
Spellvamp was nerfed a bit, and all of Swain's abilities are EITHER AoE or DoT, so they're further marginalised. Would it be better to pick up some CDR, MR and health as well as bonus healing on your ult, or would it not be that impressive?
A 15% buff on 75% of 50/70/90 + 0.2AP per second could be decent?
You can compare them in the late game, but there's just a lot more than just AD (plus support) vs AD (plus support). You've got Team A v Team B in the late game. There is no AD comparison (assuming you're giving equal items to both AD carries, and god knows what other roles were filled mid, top, jungle, and support).
X is a better late game champion than Y in Z role does not mean that X's team will always win.
It just means they're a better champion. If you cannot compare AD vs AD in the lategame then you can't ever compare abilities of any champion in any setting for any reason! Literally we are setting the carries up and saying "in general which one of these is better or worse in the lategame based on their strengths and weaknesses"
And Good Christ, Cait is weaker in the lategame than other AD carries.
Maybe we can put it another way.
"In general, at 40-50 minutes, who would you rather have as your carry? Cait, Tristana, Kog'Maw, Ashe, Graves, Corki, Vayne, etc". Cait is low on that list. She gets comparatively weaker as the game goes on. She gets weaker as the game goes on because gold advantages mean less at 50 minutes than they do at 15. She gets weaker because if she doesn't have a gold advantage her abilities are not strong enough to make up for it.
Spellvamp was nerfed a bit, and all of Swain's abilities are EITHER AoE or DoT, so they're further marginalised. Would it be better to pick up some CDR, MR and health as well as bonus healing on your ult, or would it not be that impressive?
A 15% buff on 75% of 50/70/90 + 0.2AP per second could be decent?
First, spell vamp doesn't care if an ability is DoT or not. Single target DoTs vamp for the full amount, multi target DoTs vamp for 1/3rd amount, same as if they were instant damage spells. You're probably confusing with Rylai's, which does reduce it's slow for DoT targets. It only does that because a 7 second 35% snare would be nutso.
Second, only Swain's nevermove is an AoE. Swain's crow form is technically not a AoE. The way it's coded is that it is a series of single target abilities that continually shoot at targets. Swain's crow form provides full vamp. Other similar abilities are Katarina's death lotus, Heimerdinger's rockets, and Ahri's fox fire.
That said, I still think Swain is rather lackluster even with vamp. He got friggin' nerfed to the ground and vamp got nerfed too. At this point I'd rather have just about any other AP than him.
zerg rush on
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KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
Spellvamp was nerfed a bit, and all of Swain's abilities are EITHER AoE or DoT, so they're further marginalised. Would it be better to pick up some CDR, MR and health as well as bonus healing on your ult, or would it not be that impressive?
A 15% buff on 75% of 50/70/90 + 0.2AP per second could be decent?
First, spell vamp doesn't care if an ability is DoT or not. Single target DoTs vamp for the full amount, multi target DoTs vamp for 1/3rd amount, same as if they were instant damage spells. You're probably confusing with Rylai's, which does reduce it's slow for DoT targets. It only does that because a 7 second 35% snare would be nutso.
Second, only Swain's nevermove is an AoE. Swain's crow form is technically not a AoE. The way it's coded is that it is a series of single target abilities that continually shoot at targets. Swain's crow form provides full vamp. Other similar abilities are Katarina's death lotus and Heimerdinger's rockets.
That said, I still think Swain is rather lackluster even with vamp. He got friggin' nerfed to the ground and vamp got nerfed too. At this point I'd rather have just about any other AP than him.
You're right, the DoT thing doesn't matter for spellvamp, just ST vs AoE. So his ult, Q and E would all give decent spellvamp. Still, the CDR/MR/Health on Spirit Visage with the healing buff might be neat, was mainly just asking for opinions to see what everyone else thought.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
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eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
edited May 2012
I think I would prefer Cait over Corki for the lategame.
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
edited May 2012
Goumindong, the problem here is that we're fighting against Gamer Tradition, where tier lists are evil hellish things made by nerdy numbers elitists and you should Play What You Want.
It's amusing because some people have this weird idea that saying one character is statistically better than another is equivalent to saying "because they're better you should always play them," or "because they're better, they're more fun to play," and take it as someone trying to impinge on who they get to play... when it fact it's just strategic analysis for stuff like teambuilding, or feedback on balance, or hints as to who's super-stealth-OP (remember me pointing out that Cass was the hardest-scaling AP character in the game and would start seeing tournament play eventually? That was based on numbers :shockhorror: ).
Bethryn on
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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Forever Zefirocloaked in the midnight glory of an event horizonRegistered Userregular
I think I would prefer Cait over Corki for the lategame.
A well played Corki is soooo much better than a Caitlyn late game. 10% extra true damage on every auto attack from his passive is ridiculous, and if you're good at aiming his ult it's ridiculous.
Have people here had success with AD Kennen? I've been playing him in bot games and I wanna know if he's any good against real people.
he works really well
one thing that is new and neat is taking AD kennen top lane, being a kennen-y lane bully, and then after you have boots and a couple doran's blades you switch to being full AP just to fuck with them
I'm intrigued by this idea. What do you run for runes and masteries, standard AD?
Anyone else having massive video lag since the spectator mode patch? It isn't affected by anything in game, just seems to slow way down at random points of a SR match (usually mid-late game).
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
We lost the jungle fight 1 to 3 because after we saw them invading our red and hurried back from theirs, Graves facechecked the bush we knew they were in instead of waiting for the team
That's okay, Mundo makes up for it with constant ganks while Jax slowly wins top. Started 7/1/1 (died in the L1 fight) and took bot tower after picking up a double down there. Had to basically live bot so much because Graves kept facecheckin'
that enemy vladimir :?:
Sold all his stuff late game when they started breaking apart.
Spellvamp was nerfed a bit, and all of Swain's abilities are EITHER AoE or DoT, so they're further marginalised. Would it be better to pick up some CDR, MR and health as well as bonus healing on your ult, or would it not be that impressive?
A 15% buff on 75% of 50/70/90 + 0.2AP per second could be decent?
First, spell vamp doesn't care if an ability is DoT or not. Single target DoTs vamp for the full amount, multi target DoTs vamp for 1/3rd amount, same as if they were instant damage spells. You're probably confusing with Rylai's, which does reduce it's slow for DoT targets. It only does that because a 7 second 35% snare would be nutso.
Second, only Swain's nevermove is an AoE. Swain's crow form is technically not a AoE. The way it's coded is that it is a series of single target abilities that continually shoot at targets. Swain's crow form provides full vamp. Other similar abilities are Katarina's death lotus and Heimerdinger's rockets.
That said, I still think Swain is rather lackluster even with vamp. He got friggin' nerfed to the ground and vamp got nerfed too. At this point I'd rather have just about any other AP than him.
You're right, the DoT thing doesn't matter for spellvamp, just ST vs AoE. So his ult, Q and E would all give decent spellvamp. Still, the CDR/MR/Health on Spirit Visage with the healing buff might be neat, was mainly just asking for opinions to see what everyone else thought.
Don't buy SV. Swain already has problems mid-game in keeping ahead of the curve in terms of damage/mana expenditure where he runs himself out of mana and there are still plenty of alive enemies.
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KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
Bruiser Swain! Frozen Heart and Spirit Visage CORE!
Have people here had success with AD Kennen? I've been playing him in bot games and I wanna know if he's any good against real people.
he works really well
one thing that is new and neat is taking AD kennen top lane, being a kennen-y lane bully, and then after you have boots and a couple doran's blades you switch to being full AP just to fuck with them
I'm intrigued by this idea. What do you run for runes and masteries, standard AD?
yeah, i didn't actually watch the stream where this happened in a tournament, but my brother told me that the guy had standard AD runes/masteries, went top lane with boots, bought two doran's blades as his first purchase, and then went for a zhonyas/wota/deathcap
Variable start --> Tear --> Merc treads unless I think I can get away with CDR boots --> Manamunes --> Spirit Visage unless they're magic light --> triforce -->Frozen heart
Same for a jungle Yorick? I know he doesn't need wriggles to clear (He seems to finish the jungle in decent time and at near to full health no matter WHAT items you get.) That's pretty close ot how I build him except sometimes I'll go for an early Aegis.
Do you typically finish your manamune first then go triforce or get the tear and rush triforce?
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KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
edited May 2012
Wargh. I wish every PUG Support was as competent as you, Burnage.
I had a Janna that never warded the bush Taric LIVED in, never went into the bush Taric lived in, never shielded me after Urgot landed a grenade, and was generally terrible. And then told me I was bad because I wasn't farming up a storm.
Protip: I can't farm up a storm when there's an 8 second CD stun in the bushes with armour shred, and an Urgot with meaty slows and armour pen and grenades and rockets ready to tag me the moment the stun hits.
Team also berated me for going Bloodthirster first on Varus, and farming in the jungle (wolves) from time to time. While our jungler was dead or on the other side of the map. Arrgh!
Have people here had success with AD Kennen? I've been playing him in bot games and I wanna know if he's any good against real people.
he works really well
one thing that is new and neat is taking AD kennen top lane, being a kennen-y lane bully, and then after you have boots and a couple doran's blades you switch to being full AP just to fuck with them
I'm intrigued by this idea. What do you run for runes and masteries, standard AD?
yeah, i didn't actually watch the stream where this happened in a tournament, but my brother told me that the guy had standard AD runes/masteries, went top lane with boots, bought two doran's blades as his first purchase, and then went for a zhonyas/wota/deathcap
I tried this out a few months ago and have had a lot of success with it. I run full AD marks and quints. Masteries you really only need the flat AD and armor pen masteries, the rest are your choice. You can start doran's blade or boots/3 pots. I tend to like boots/3 but if your lane opponent doesn't have a gap closer doran's blade might be better.
It's completely brutal against melee, especially if they don't have a gap closer. I'm usually zoning my opponent by level 2 or 3.
The transition into mid game can be rough, but usually I'm farming so well and zoning my enemy so hard it doesn't matter.
Have people here had success with AD Kennen? I've been playing him in bot games and I wanna know if he's any good against real people.
he works really well
one thing that is new and neat is taking AD kennen top lane, being a kennen-y lane bully, and then after you have boots and a couple doran's blades you switch to being full AP just to fuck with them
I'm intrigued by this idea. What do you run for runes and masteries, standard AD?
yeah, i didn't actually watch the stream where this happened in a tournament, but my brother told me that the guy had standard AD runes/masteries, went top lane with boots, bought two doran's blades as his first purchase, and then went for a zhonyas/wota/deathcap
I tried this out a few months ago and have had a lot of success with it. I run full AD marks and quints. Masteries you really only need the flat AD and armor pen masteries, the rest are your choice. You can start doran's blade or boots/3 pots. I tend to like boots/3 but if your lane opponent doesn't have a gap closer doran's blade might be better.
It's completely brutal against melee, especially if they don't have a gap closer. I'm usually zoning my opponent by level 2 or 3.
The transition into mid game can be rough, but usually I'm farming so well and zoning my enemy so hard it doesn't matter.
So whats the big advantage of just sticking with one over the other, I would think AD kennen would be stronger lategame since that is generally how ADs go. Is it just the surprise factor and your opponents buying armor instead of MR?
Variable start --> Tear --> Merc treads unless I think I can get away with CDR boots --> Manamunes --> Spirit Visage unless they're magic light --> triforce -->Frozen heart
Same for a jungle Yorick? I know he doesn't need wriggles to clear (He seems to finish the jungle in decent time and at near to full health no matter WHAT items you get.) That's pretty close ot how I build him except sometimes I'll go for an early Aegis.
Do you typically finish your manamune first then go triforce or get the tear and rush triforce?
I've never jungled him. I usually finish manamunes before going into triforce simply because manamunes charges faster on Yorick than just a tear.
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eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
I think I would prefer Cait over Corki for the lategame.
A well played Corki is soooo much better than a Caitlyn late game. 10% extra true damage on every auto attack from his passive is ridiculous, and if you're good at aiming his ult it's ridiculous.
A lategame AD's greatest source of damage is their autoattack. The problem with Corki is that most build Triforce for the midgame burst damage so not only does only his autoattacking do less damage, but he also needs to interrupt it with constant casting. A 10% steroid, even if it's true damage, is not a very impressive steroid. Caitlyn attacking from a bush probably ends up doing around 10% (50%/3= ~16.6%).
Do people think Caitlyn's range becomes irrelevant once laning is over? She has great tower sieging/defending and her safety provides among the greatest damage uptimes among AD carries. She is only outranged by a Tristana and a Kog'Maw with an active W.
If most AD carry needs 5 hits to kill someone and Caitlyn needs 6, it comes out even because Caitlyn gets her shot off first.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
The problem with Corki is that most build Triforce for the midgame burst damage so not only does only his autoattacking do less damage, but he also needs to interrupt it with constant casting.
Please distinguish between players building a character in a particular way, and the character's actual potential scaling.
Posts
You can compare them in the late game, but there's just a lot more than just AD (plus support) vs AD (plus support). You've got Team A v Team B in the late game. There is no AD comparison (assuming you're giving equal items to both AD carries, and god knows what other roles were filled mid, top, jungle, and support).
Yelling at butts will never NOT be funny. Thanks, Psy!
Also, Abby is awesome. Keep up with TLH because it's the tits!
I love League of Legends, but seriously...screw you, Teemo.
Spellvamp was nerfed a bit, and all of Swain's abilities are EITHER AoE or DoT, so they're further marginalised. Would it be better to pick up some CDR, MR and health as well as bonus healing on your ult, or would it not be that impressive?
A 15% buff on 75% of 50/70/90 + 0.2AP per second could be decent?
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
X is a better late game champion than Y in Z role does not mean that X's team will always win.
It just means they're a better champion. If you cannot compare AD vs AD in the lategame then you can't ever compare abilities of any champion in any setting for any reason! Literally we are setting the carries up and saying "in general which one of these is better or worse in the lategame based on their strengths and weaknesses"
And Good Christ, Cait is weaker in the lategame than other AD carries.
Maybe we can put it another way.
"In general, at 40-50 minutes, who would you rather have as your carry? Cait, Tristana, Kog'Maw, Ashe, Graves, Corki, Vayne, etc". Cait is low on that list. She gets comparatively weaker as the game goes on. She gets weaker as the game goes on because gold advantages mean less at 50 minutes than they do at 15. She gets weaker because if she doesn't have a gold advantage her abilities are not strong enough to make up for it.
First, spell vamp doesn't care if an ability is DoT or not. Single target DoTs vamp for the full amount, multi target DoTs vamp for 1/3rd amount, same as if they were instant damage spells. You're probably confusing with Rylai's, which does reduce it's slow for DoT targets. It only does that because a 7 second 35% snare would be nutso.
Second, only Swain's nevermove is an AoE. Swain's crow form is technically not a AoE. The way it's coded is that it is a series of single target abilities that continually shoot at targets. Swain's crow form provides full vamp. Other similar abilities are Katarina's death lotus, Heimerdinger's rockets, and Ahri's fox fire.
That said, I still think Swain is rather lackluster even with vamp. He got friggin' nerfed to the ground and vamp got nerfed too. At this point I'd rather have just about any other AP than him.
You're right, the DoT thing doesn't matter for spellvamp, just ST vs AoE. So his ult, Q and E would all give decent spellvamp. Still, the CDR/MR/Health on Spirit Visage with the healing buff might be neat, was mainly just asking for opinions to see what everyone else thought.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
It's amusing because some people have this weird idea that saying one character is statistically better than another is equivalent to saying "because they're better you should always play them," or "because they're better, they're more fun to play," and take it as someone trying to impinge on who they get to play... when it fact it's just strategic analysis for stuff like teambuilding, or feedback on balance, or hints as to who's super-stealth-OP (remember me pointing out that Cass was the hardest-scaling AP character in the game and would start seeing tournament play eventually? That was based on numbers :shockhorror: ).
What I meant was he looks just like Guts, which Tryn doesn't
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
We already got Lulu this year, wouldn't expect another support until 2013.
A well played Corki is soooo much better than a Caitlyn late game. 10% extra true damage on every auto attack from his passive is ridiculous, and if you're good at aiming his ult it's ridiculous.
Don't buy SV. Swain already has problems mid-game in keeping ahead of the curve in terms of damage/mana expenditure where he runs himself out of mana and there are still plenty of alive enemies.
(Rod of Ages, Deathcap.)
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
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yeah, i didn't actually watch the stream where this happened in a tournament, but my brother told me that the guy had standard AD runes/masteries, went top lane with boots, bought two doran's blades as his first purchase, and then went for a zhonyas/wota/deathcap
Same for a jungle Yorick? I know he doesn't need wriggles to clear (He seems to finish the jungle in decent time and at near to full health no matter WHAT items you get.) That's pretty close ot how I build him except sometimes I'll go for an early Aegis.
Do you typically finish your manamune first then go triforce or get the tear and rush triforce?
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
I had a Janna that never warded the bush Taric LIVED in, never went into the bush Taric lived in, never shielded me after Urgot landed a grenade, and was generally terrible. And then told me I was bad because I wasn't farming up a storm.
Protip: I can't farm up a storm when there's an 8 second CD stun in the bushes with armour shred, and an Urgot with meaty slows and armour pen and grenades and rockets ready to tag me the moment the stun hits.
Team also berated me for going Bloodthirster first on Varus, and farming in the jungle (wolves) from time to time. While our jungler was dead or on the other side of the map. Arrgh!
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
I like that you're still willing to say this after spectating that game where I got eaten alive as Nunu by an enemy Varus and Zilean
I never do well with Nunu for some reason; I think I have trouble getting used to his range after mostly playing Janna and Lux.
this is my guess as to why they didn't put it into the game yet
because they still haven't nerfed spell vamp into the ground
Nunu's not a support you play often. I'd be happy to go with your Janna or GP or Orianna anytime.
Also, Nunu dies horribly to insane poke. And those two have insane poke.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
i wonder if eventually riot is gonna go the dota route and obliterate passive sustain in favor of temporary, active sustain
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probably...really good
I tried this out a few months ago and have had a lot of success with it. I run full AD marks and quints. Masteries you really only need the flat AD and armor pen masteries, the rest are your choice. You can start doran's blade or boots/3 pots. I tend to like boots/3 but if your lane opponent doesn't have a gap closer doran's blade might be better.
It's completely brutal against melee, especially if they don't have a gap closer. I'm usually zoning my opponent by level 2 or 3.
The transition into mid game can be rough, but usually I'm farming so well and zoning my enemy so hard it doesn't matter.
@Spectrum and I did a Varus x Zilean poke lane once. It was obscene. Don't feel bad, it would be a horrible matchup.
Only reason the enemy bot wasn't completely fucked was SORAKA! :rotate:
For added horribleness, my carry was Vayne. Any time we even looked sideways at a creep we got bombs to the face.
Blind pick!
I've never jungled him. I usually finish manamunes before going into triforce simply because manamunes charges faster on Yorick than just a tear.
A lategame AD's greatest source of damage is their autoattack. The problem with Corki is that most build Triforce for the midgame burst damage so not only does only his autoattacking do less damage, but he also needs to interrupt it with constant casting. A 10% steroid, even if it's true damage, is not a very impressive steroid. Caitlyn attacking from a bush probably ends up doing around 10% (50%/3= ~16.6%).
Do people think Caitlyn's range becomes irrelevant once laning is over? She has great tower sieging/defending and her safety provides among the greatest damage uptimes among AD carries. She is only outranged by a Tristana and a Kog'Maw with an active W.
If most AD carry needs 5 hits to kill someone and Caitlyn needs 6, it comes out even because Caitlyn gets her shot off first.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Haunting guise is still an underestimated item.
Its also matchup dependant.
Haunting is really good for ap mids when laning agaisnt veigar.
if i think i'm the target of a crazy assassin type character
if i'm an AD i will build several doran's blades, a wriggles, and a PD
if i'm an AP i will build abyssal, haunting guise, zhonyas
or something