You know that Xbox game you still can't play on your 360? Too bad.

Spectral Swallow

Alternate title: Microsoft emulates Sony.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/gdc07/gdc07-360-bc-work-slowing-242776.php

Summary: Toward the end of the year 360 backward compatibility will be lessened.
I want to play Jet Grind Radio Future on the 360, but alas, it seems destined to not happen.

The Cheese

I don't see how less BC updates in the future means you will never play JSRF on your 360.

Evander

Spectral Swallow wrote: »

Alternate title: Microsoft emulates Sony.

http://kotaku.com/gaming/gdc07/gdc07-360-bc-work-slowing-242776.php

Summary: Toward the end of the year 360 backward compatibility will be lessened.
I want to play Jet Grind Radio Future on the 360, but alas, it seems destined to not happen.

I'm pretty sure you mean that BC UPDATES will be lessened.

Because what you said makes it sound like they'll be taking BC away

and that makes NO fucking sense

Gorilla Salad

...

No. Sony is copying MS. Microsoft was never really serious about BC. Sony copied them.

Threepio

I'm not going to get all angsty and write a page long diatribe about it, but... fuck, come on. Can it really be that hard to get these games going? There weren't that many Xbox titles to begin with, what's the friggen hold up?

Spectral Swallow

Evander wrote: »

I'm pretty sure you mean that BC UPDATES will be lessened.

Because what you said makes it sound like they'll be taking BC away

and that makes NO fucking sense

me wrote:

Toward the end of the year 360 backward compatibility will be lessened.

I... I don't know how I could have made it any clearer...

Gorilla Salad

Spectral Swallow wrote: »

Evander wrote: »

I'm pretty sure you mean that BC UPDATES will be lessened.

Because what you said makes it sound like they'll be taking BC away

and that makes NO fucking sense

me wrote:

Toward the end of the year 360 backward compatibility will be lessened.

I... I don't know how I could have made it any clearer...

The title. It;s the title.

mntorankusu

Funny, I was just discussing with someone earlier how two games that aren't (yet) BC are games I really want to play when I get a 360. JSRF and Panzer Dragoon Orta, that is.

Why yes, Microsoft, it is an important feature.

Evander

Spectral Swallow wrote: »

Evander wrote: »

I'm pretty sure you mean that BC UPDATES will be lessened.

Because what you said makes it sound like they'll be taking BC away

and that makes NO fucking sense

me wrote:

Toward the end of the year 360 backward compatibility will be lessened.

I... I don't know how I could have made it any clearer...

you said it will be lessened.

that means making it less

which makes no sense

why the hell would they undo what they've done?

StriderEdge

Over half of my games don't work on the 360. I wonder why the SEGA stuff was overlooked... I can't be the only person to buy an Xbox because of the Sega support.

Also... poor Phantom Dust... Microsoft Game Studios doesn't even want to make its own game work on their console.

Shadowfire

I weep for Prince of Persia and Mercenaries.

Einhander

I guess the main difficulty is getting the games running on a completely different GPU than they were originally designed for, without using any of the programming techniques you used on the old GPU (or even any remotely similar), since those techniques are company secrets that aren't owned by you and you'll get your ass sued off in court if you implement them.

But no, it should be easy as pie.

Honestly, I'm surprised BC is where it is. It was a very stupid decision on MS's part not to think ahead when designing the Xbox, and to let a decent chunk of the system remain out of their control. Sony can just drop an EE in the PS3 and call it good, but with Microsoft, it has to be done entirely in software.

Microsoft has said that they don't consider BC to be a big deal, since except for Halo 2, Xbox games don't clock shit for hours of play on Live. They have no way of telling how many people are playing single player Xbox games on their 360s, though.

And since it's easier to find a hot brunette with low standards wearing a bikini made of money who happens to be holding the Holy Grail than it is to find a brand new Xbox in stores these days (in the greedtaculous $180 Forza Bundle), a majority of Xbox games in the future will be played on 360s.

DarkPrimus

What games do I own that aren't BC?

Uhm... everything other than Halo and Splinter Cell games, probably.

mspencer

It seems to me like Microsoft is disincented from making ALL previous Xbox games backward-compatible.

First, if the original Xbox is made redundant, people could take all those old Xboxes and use them for general-purpose-computing stuff.

Second, Microsoft wants publishers to write games for their console, so they want to make life easier for their publishers. Like it or not, if a previous version of a game was still fun but can't be played on the 360, publishers can update that old game a little bit and release it again. If the old game was made compatible, that (evil) sales opportunity would be lost.

Third, some old Xbox games had security holes which enabled arbitrary code execution. The old Xbox also had various design characteristics which make it inherently insecure, enabling those security holes. It's possible that as-yet-undiscovered security holes exist in many original Xbox games. If Microsoft allows users to run old Xbox games without spending a lot of time making sure they're secure and stable on the Xbox 360, they could compromise their safe environment.

There are also reasons Microsoft is incented to make more games backward compatible: Xbox 360 sales will probably increase, and they will make their users happier and earn more customer loyalty. I don't know if the positives will outweigh the negatives -- I just know I have a few Xbox games that won't play on the 360 and I wish I could play them there. (I'm glad they added Shenmue 2, but I still wish I could play America's Army, DOAXBV, or Morrowind.)

Blake T

Shadowfire wrote: »

I weep for Prince of Persia and Mercenaries.

I played the prince not two months ago on my 360.

His sequel and triquel and I cannot comment on.

TetraNitroCubane

Einhander wrote: »

I guess the main difficulty is getting the games running on a completely different GPU than they were originally designed for, without using any of the programming techniques you used on the old GPU (or even any remotely similar), since those techniques are company secrets that aren't owned by you and you'll get your ass sued off in court if you implement them.

But no, it should be easy as pie.

Yes. Thank you. Every time I see one of these topics many people make it sound as if Microsoft refuses to push the "MAKE PANZER DRAGOON AND JET SET RADIO WORK" button, even though it's sitting right there. The fact is that software emulation sucks to impliment backward compatability, and it's a real diminishing returns situation for them to put more work into it at this point.

Microsoft really shot themselves in the foot between generations, particularly with the nVidia deal. That was a total mistake, and there's no question that it's hurting the 360 now. However, this doesn't mean that they're sitting on some magical BC solution they refuse to release to the public. It's just fucking tough to get it to work.

Recoil42

mspencer wrote: »

Third, some old Xbox games had security holes which enabled arbitrary code execution. The old Xbox also had various design characteristics which make it inherently insecure, enabling those security holes. It's possible that as-yet-undiscovered security holes exist in many original Xbox games. If Microsoft allows users to run old Xbox games without spending a lot of time making sure they're secure and stable on the Xbox 360, they could compromise their safe environment.

IIRC, XBox360 backwards compatibility runs in an secure sandbox environment. Xbox games are not allowed to interface with the rest of the console at all, they're stuck in their own little world. So that's a non-issue.

Iriah

If it really means that much to you could go out and buy an old Xbox for like $100 or however much it is in US.

But it doesn't, right?

wenchkilla

Iriah wrote: »

If it really means that much to you could go out and buy an old Xbox for like $100 or however much it is in US.

Yeah, but you shouldn't HAVE to. I bet lots of people traded in their Xbox for store credit thinking, awesome, I'll only need one console for two consoles worth of games, AND I'm saving money.

Roshin

wenchkilla wrote: »

Yeah, but you shouldn't HAVE to.

Why not? They are two separate consoles, after all.

wenchkilla wrote: »

I bet lots of people traded in their Xbox for store credit thinking, awesome, I'll only need one console for two consoles worth of games, AND I'm saving money.

MS never claimed 100% backwards compatibility, so just assuming it out of the blue wouldn't be very clever.

Monaro

I'm probably in the minority here, but I liken complaining about Xbox/Playstation BC issues to "man, it fucking sucks I can't play my Saturn games on my Xbox"

I can understand the convenience, and the benefits (upscaling), but, I guess after going through something like the Genesis-Saturn or SNES-N64 period, I'm just used to the whole "if I wanna play the game, I'll just dig out the console for the evening" sorta deal.

mrots

I think it'd be a little less of an issue if you could still like, buy new Xboxes.

Variable

whether this is a massive issue as opposed to just a bit of an annoyance is based on whether Microsoft made it sound like eventually everything would be BC or not. I'm not sure if they did... if they didn't than, well fair enough for them not to give it anymore man hours. if the did, then this sucks a lot because I could see people getting rid of the old system with expectations of playing games on the new one.

Death of Rats

MUST FIND WAY TO TURN THIS AROUND ON SONY!

Uh uh uh uh....

If it wasn't for Sony and the PS2 we wouldn't be in this mess. Without that damned PS2 there would have never been a precedent set for backwards compatibility in this new generation and no one would have sold their Xbox.

THIS IS ALL SONY'S DOING! THEY SET IT UP IN THE DISTANT PAST TO SABOTAGE MICROSOFT!

wenchkilla

Wow Death of Rats, that turn in on Sony thing worked WAY too damn well ;-)

Mr_Grinch

I agree with Monaro, I've been through pretty much all the various generations of consoles (kicking off with good 'ole Atari) and it's only recently that backwards compatibility is expected. Has it ever worked perfect? The PS1 to PS2 backwards compatibility was pretty cool but I don't overly see the issue.

Sure you can argue maybe you traded in your Xbox to buy a 360, but that doesn't really hold water for me when you took previous generations in to account. Did you sell your NES to get a SNES, but hang on to the games and then try and cram them in a smaller slot? How about flogging the megadrive/genesis for a saturn then hoping your Mega CD games would work in it?

It was a nice feature of the ps2, it's a nice feature of the Wii but it's not essential and credit where credit's due, both the 360 and PS3 give fair warning that not everygame is backwards compatible. And before we get on the attack Sony route, I imagine the UK boxes will contain a disclaimer regarding the limited backwards compatibility.

Seriously, keep your old consoles, it's much more fun to play the games on them anyway.

RichardTauber

According to my memories, some people did try to show NES-carts into the SNES. But that's beside the point. The only company who is delivering full BC is Nintendo?

Synapse

Seems as such.

I guess if MS wanted backwards compatibility they should have taped together a few xboxes.

bongi

i do think perhaps people put too heavy an emphasis on BC

but at the same time i have a couple of xbox 1 games that would be useless without it

so uhhhh

uhhh

yeah

Narian

Sure BC was not important nor was it even a consideration with the NES or SNES. So does that mean no system in the future should ever have BC?

BC is new and it's important now, people who started with an XBox or a PS2 or hell a GCN don't know shit about previous generations and want to play all their games on each of the console makers lines of systems. People want to play GBA games on their DS. Sorry but in todays world BC is a big issue.

Mr_Grinch

I still disagree. I didn't buy a DVD player and try to play VCRs on it. I find this backwards compatibility thing an annoying trend which, if anything, is pushing up the price of current hardware.

With talk of future consoles being "download" only, with no option for physical medium, how will they then provide "backwards compatibility". It's a nice enough feature if it's there but I don't believe it should be anywhere near essential.

Same in the pc world, it'd be nice if my XP machine would play every DOS and Windows 95 game, but I have to live with the fact that each new generation I leave something of the previous behind.

I don't see why people expect to be able to play old games on them though. It's a NEW console.

cj iwakura

Well, all the more reason why I'll just keep my XB. It's not like its worth much anyway. I almost never get rid of systems unless I have NO need for them(rare).

Radikal_Dreamer

The limited backwards compatibility is one of the reasons I haven't got a 360 yet. I'd probably have picked one up if I knew I could play all the Xbox games I missed.

lazyboi

Well... When I bought my 360, I was pretty much under the impression that all Xbox games would EVENTUALLY be playable. Maybe I should have done a bit more research, and not having played Morrowind on the Xbox, I was looking forward to it quite a lot.

I see the point that it isn't easy to make the games BC, but still - I'm a little bummed.

japan

I think the expectation of BC comes from those who got into gaming with the PS1/2. There's also the fact that this gen doesn't seem to be that much of a leap technologically from the last, meaning that back catalogues still have a lot of sales potential.

cj iwakura

Also, in the case of the XB, some of the best games on the system(at least, my favorites) aren't BC, which pretty much assures I'll be keeping mine. No JSRF, SvC Chaos, Phantom Dust, Capcom Fighting Evolution... probably none of the other SNK titles either.

Deusfaux

360 non backwards compatibility:

Beyond Good & Evil
Burnout Revenge
Dance Dance Revolution
Full Spectrum Warrior
Jet Set Radio Future
Karaoke Revolution
MechAssault 2:
MechAssault 2: Lone Wolf
Mercenaries
Panzer Dragoon Orta
Prince of Persia: Warrior Within
Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones
Steel Battalion / LoC


:x

eobet

Wasn't there a rumor that the PS3 would upscale PS2 and PS1 games?

Well, I guess the big companies are too greedy to care about what people want, since they don't make any money off old (already sold) games (until the hit "virtual consoles" where they can sell them to you again).

DoctorArch

I'm tired of people saying that we shouldn't expect backwards compatibility now because we never used to get it.

That's like saying that all FPS shouldn't have improved after Half-Life came out, instead, we should have still expected games like Quake. Or, to a greater extreme, we shouldn't get used to electric lights, because we didn't use to have them a hundred years ago.

BC is a big deal to me, and it's one of the major reasons I haven't picked up a 360 yet. Because, as someone mentioned before, it's not just an issue of pulling out my original xbox to play the old games, but an issue because the old xbox may not be working when I do and I'll be forced to mod/replace the DVD drive just to play my games. Let's face facts, the long-term quality of the xbox pales in comparison to consoles of old, like the Super Nintendo, which can still be pulled out and played, and unless it's been sitting in a puddle of water, it will still be working. I know newer consoles are more complex, have cd/dvd drives, etc., but we still want to play our older games.

I'm looking over the BC list right now and comparing it to my library, and it's not just a case of "not worth it" games not being on the list, but a large swath of games that are both cult classics to really good games:

Beyond Good & Evil
Breakdown
Brothers in Arms
Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind
ESPN NFL 2k5 (My favorite football game of this generation)
Full Spectrum Warrior
Gladius
Kingdom Under Fire: The Crusaders
Kingdom Under Fire: Heroes
Mechassault
Mercenaries
Otogi: Myth of Demons
Otogi 2: Immortal Warriors
Panzer Dragoon Orta
Prince of Persia: Warrior Within
Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones
Project Gotham Racing 2
Rallisport Challenge 2
Silent Hill 2: Restless Dreams
Star Wars: Republic Commando
Steel Battalion
Steel Battalion: Line of Contact
Sudeki
Top Spin
Unreal Championship 2

I'm looking over my list, and while I admit, Breakdown and Sudeki are not must owns and I could easily live without the sports games (well, maybe not NFL 2k5), the others are all pretty good games that I would want to play again.

Gorilla Salad

Steel Battalion can't be made BC because of the controller.

And I don't care about BC. I keep my consoles(cept my PS1, gave that to a friend) and you should too!





REEEEADING RAAAAAAAINBOOOOOW!

Elendil

Well, this is disappointing.

I was hoping to skip the Xbox. Well, I probably still will, but I won't enjoy it.