I for one hate teenagers congregating anywhere. Especially if they have skate boards. And I think that graffiti or other "petty" vandalism is an absolutely terrible crime, and don't feel at all comfortable with writing it off as the indiscetions of youth. Yes, they are young and dumb, but is that a reason that the owner of a van or building shouldn't have an expectation of having their property left alone?
Teenagers have to congregate somewhere. Graffiti and vandalism is a petty crime compared to murder, selling illegal drugs (meth etc), torture, treason, slavery, high level white collar crime and more. Teenagers who commit those crimes get punished, they don't deserve to have their entire lives ruined for making bad decisions. We all have done bad shit at that age. It's a natural stage in human development.
Harry Dresden on
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I for one hate teenagers congregating anywhere. Especially if they have skate boards. And I think that graffiti or other "petty" vandalism is an absolutely terrible crime, and don't feel at all comfortable with writing it off as the indiscetions of youth. Yes, they are young and dumb, but is that a reason that the owner of a van or building shouldn't have an expectation of having their property left alone?
Teenagers have to congregate somewhere. Graffiti and vandalism is a petty crime compared to murder, selling illegal drugs (meth etc), torture, treason, slavery, high level white collar crime and more. Teenagers who commit those crimes get punished, they don't deserve to have their entire lives ruined for making bad decisions. We all have done bad shit at that age. It's a natural stage in human development.
Is this actually true? I've seen it repeated a lot, but my lolanecdotes never really lived up to it.
I for one hate teenagers congregating anywhere. Especially if they have skate boards. And I think that graffiti or other "petty" vandalism is an absolutely terrible crime, and don't feel at all comfortable with writing it off as the indiscetions of youth. Yes, they are young and dumb, but is that a reason that the owner of a van or building shouldn't have an expectation of having their property left alone?
Teenagers have to congregate somewhere. Graffiti and vandalism is a petty crime compared to murder, selling illegal drugs (meth etc), torture, treason, slavery, high level white collar crime and more. Teenagers who commit those crimes get punished, they don't deserve to have their entire lives ruined for making bad decisions. We all have done bad shit at that age. It's a natural stage in human development.
Is this actually true? I've seen it repeated a lot, but my lolanecdotes never really lived up to it.
We joke about this a lot, but the reality is that your lawn is private property, and you have every right not to have people on it.
If I'm rural enough, I can probably shoot them too.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
As a kid my dad brandished a weapon at least once to get some weirdos off our farm.
We also had to defend the porch from possums and raccoons on numerous occasions. Fuckers are mean.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
My dad was routinely shot at for trespassing as a kid. There was a farm near his house where he and his friends would sneak across the fence and fish in the pond there.
Yep. Shooting at children for stealing your fish.
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I for one hate teenagers congregating anywhere. Especially if they have skate boards. And I think that graffiti or other "petty" vandalism is an absolutely terrible crime, and don't feel at all comfortable with writing it off as the indiscetions of youth. Yes, they are young and dumb, but is that a reason that the owner of a van or building shouldn't have an expectation of having their property left alone?
Teenagers have to congregate somewhere. Graffiti and vandalism is a petty crime compared to murder, selling illegal drugs (meth etc), torture, treason, slavery, high level white collar crime and more. Teenagers who commit those crimes get punished, they don't deserve to have their entire lives ruined for making bad decisions. We all have done bad shit at that age. It's a natural stage in human development.
Is this actually true? I've seen it repeated a lot, but my lolanecdotes never really lived up to it.
I assume so. It's how we learn who we are.
I meant in context of vandalism/graffiti and whatever is happening in Bowen's area.
It's something I and my peers never participated in. I mean, I was aware that it happened, but it was always something I attributed to lower economic groups. (Yet again something that can be solved by income equality) And not something that "everybody goes through as growing up"
In hindsight though, my friends at that age would have been in the perfect position for those types of petty crime, since our (then unknown) social standing pretty much made us immune to repercussions.
My dad was routinely shot at for trespassing as a kid. There was a farm near his house where he and his friends would sneak across the fence and fish in the pond there.
Yep. Shooting at children for stealing your fish.
My take away from that is that your father thought it was worth shooting at routinely to go fishing. . .
I for one hate teenagers congregating anywhere. Especially if they have skate boards. And I think that graffiti or other "petty" vandalism is an absolutely terrible crime, and don't feel at all comfortable with writing it off as the indiscetions of youth. Yes, they are young and dumb, but is that a reason that the owner of a van or building shouldn't have an expectation of having their property left alone?
Teenagers have to congregate somewhere. Graffiti and vandalism is a petty crime compared to murder, selling illegal drugs (meth etc), torture, treason, slavery, high level white collar crime and more. Teenagers who commit those crimes get punished, they don't deserve to have their entire lives ruined for making bad decisions. We all have done bad shit at that age. It's a natural stage in human development.
Is this actually true? I've seen it repeated a lot, but my lolanecdotes never really lived up to it.
I assume so. It's how we learn who we are.
I meant in context of vandalism/graffiti and whatever is happening in Bowen's area.
It's something I and my peers never participated in. I mean, I was aware that it happened, but it was always something I attributed to lower economic groups. (Yet again something that can be solved by income equality) And not something that "everybody goes through as growing up"
In hindsight though, my friends at that age would have been in the perfect position for those types of petty crime, since our (then unknown) social standing pretty much made us immune to repercussions.
Not everyone does petty crime. My friends and I didn't. Teenagers do make bad decisions, though. Petty crime definitely isn't monopolized by the poor. Wealthy kids have the safety net of connections and parents who buy the best lawyers to take the charges down to almost nothing or worse, cover up crimes so little Timmy's future is secure.
Harry Dresden on
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I for one hate teenagers congregating anywhere. Especially if they have skate boards. And I think that graffiti or other "petty" vandalism is an absolutely terrible crime, and don't feel at all comfortable with writing it off as the indiscetions of youth. Yes, they are young and dumb, but is that a reason that the owner of a van or building shouldn't have an expectation of having their property left alone?
Teenagers have to congregate somewhere. Graffiti and vandalism is a petty crime compared to murder, selling illegal drugs (meth etc), torture, treason, slavery, high level white collar crime and more. Teenagers who commit those crimes get punished, they don't deserve to have their entire lives ruined for making bad decisions. We all have done bad shit at that age. It's a natural stage in human development.
Is this actually true? I've seen it repeated a lot, but my lolanecdotes never really lived up to it.
I assume so. It's how we learn who we are.
I meant in context of vandalism/graffiti and whatever is happening in Bowen's area.
It's something I and my peers never participated in. I mean, I was aware that it happened, but it was always something I attributed to lower economic groups. (Yet again something that can be solved by income equality) And not something that "everybody goes through as growing up"
In hindsight though, my friends at that age would have been in the perfect position for those types of petty crime, since our (then unknown) social standing pretty much made us immune to repercussions.
Not everyone does petty crime. My friends and I didn't. Teenagers do make bad decision, though. Petty crime definitely isn't monopolized by the poor. Wealthy kids have the safety net of connections and parents who buy the best lawyers to take the charges down ton almost nothing or worse, cover up crimes so little Timmy's future is secure.
Hmm, okay. I think I just took away the wrong thing based on your reply to SKFM.
Probably just my blinding hate for people younger than me.
Edit: Though as an aside, the general consensus of the 'troublemaking teens' was blamed on English speaking parents not raising their kids properly.
My dad was routinely shot at for trespassing as a kid. There was a farm near his house where he and his friends would sneak across the fence and fish in the pond there.
Yep. Shooting at children for stealing your fish.
My take away from that is that your father thought it was worth shooting at routinely to go fishing. . .
There had to be mercury in the water supply back then.
As a kid my dad brandished a weapon at least once to get some weirdos off our farm.
We also had to defend the porch from possums and raccoons on numerous occasions. Fuckers are mean.
Oh man, just recently we had a raccoon living by our front door (kinda on the roof, kinda on these pillar things) and Im pretty sure it was trying to find a place to give birth. The fucking thing made predator noises and hissed and shit. Entering/leaving the house was like running the gauntlet.
As a kid my dad brandished a weapon at least once to get some weirdos off our farm.
We also had to defend the porch from possums and raccoons on numerous occasions. Fuckers are mean.
Oh man, just recently we had a raccoon living by our front door (kinda on the roof, kinda on these pillar things) and Im pretty sure it was trying to find a place to give birth. The fucking thing made predator noises and hissed and shit. Entering/leaving the house was like running the gauntlet.
The funny thing about teenagers is that they all will congregate somewhere, so how does a municipality control where they congregate? Often they hang out at mall food courts, not because they love going to the mall, but because it's a place with tables, they can "do stuff," and the hours are long enough that they don't have to be home until bedtime.
In most neighborhoods, especially suburban ones, what's the alternative? There are extremely few public meeting places, especially ones that offer some food. At least malls are safe and well-lit. I mean, I live in a city and would rather have kids playing in a park or sitting at some tables in a park than congregating around a streetcorner, simply because they goof off and do dumb shit.
That sort of ties back to the gentrification thing too, though, as at least cities tend to offer places for people to go for free. You don't need a car to "get out of the house" in many cities, especially big ones.
My neighborhood is apparently one of the most diverse in the US, and also one of the densest. We apparently have like 33% white, 23% black, 24% asian, 13% filipino, and of the white/black there's a lot of them that are latino (puerto rican largely but also cuban, dominican, south american, etc.). I live in a relatively poor area of town (based on the census, I apparently make 3x as much as the average household just by myself) but it's also very safe. It's not the prettiest area, and there's a fair number of storefronts that have been closed for the past year+, but there's also thriving businesses and school kids, teenagers, adults, they all are outside and seem to get along. The neighborhood overall went without power for about a week during Sandy and, in general, most people were just outside complaining about it and shootin' the shit.
There's nothing particularly special about my neighborhood other than the fact that there's a park nearby, good bus routes, cheap transportation, lots of housing and small businesses, cheap fresh food for sale, and the PATH train to NYC. The infrastructure makes it easier to exist as someone without much money, and as such, it seems safer. Yeah, i'm not buying much from the 99¢ "up & less" store, but I'm not really their clientele.
The funny thing about teenagers is that they all will congregate somewhere, so how does a municipality control where they congregate? Often they hang out at mall food courts, not because they love going to the mall, but because it's a place with tables, they can "do stuff," and the hours are long enough that they don't have to be home until bedtime.
In most neighborhoods, especially suburban ones, what's the alternative? There are extremely few public meeting places, especially ones that offer some food. At least malls are safe and well-lit. I mean, I live in a city and would rather have kids playing in a park or sitting at some tables in a park than congregating around a streetcorner, simply because they goof off and do dumb shit.
That sort of ties back to the gentrification thing too, though, as at least cities tend to offer places for people to go for free. You don't need a car to "get out of the house" in many cities, especially big ones.
My neighborhood is apparently one of the most diverse in the US, and also one of the densest. We apparently have like 33% white, 23% black, 24% asian, 13% filipino, and of the white/black there's a lot of them that are latino (puerto rican largely but also cuban, dominican, south american, etc.). I live in a relatively poor area of town (based on the census, I apparently make 3x as much as the average household just by myself) but it's also very safe. It's not the prettiest area, and there's a fair number of storefronts that have been closed for the past year+, but there's also thriving businesses and school kids, teenagers, adults, they all are outside and seem to get along. The neighborhood overall went without power for about a week during Sandy and, in general, most people were just outside complaining about it and shootin' the shit.
There's nothing particularly special about my neighborhood other than the fact that there's a park nearby, good bus routes, cheap transportation, lots of housing and small businesses, cheap fresh food for sale, and the PATH train to NYC. The infrastructure makes it easier to exist as someone without much money, and as such, it seems safer. Yeah, i'm not buying much from the 99¢ "up & less" store, but I'm not really their clientele.
I don't mind mall rats, unless they are taking up seats at the food court and not eating. I think the problem is more when they congregate in a random parking lot or outside a store. Kids skateboarding outside a store or filling up a parking lot is incredibly rude, as it may keep paying customers away.
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Clown ShoesGive me hay or give me death.Registered Userregular
The funny thing about teenagers is that they all will congregate somewhere, so how does a municipality control where they congregate? Often they hang out at mall food courts, not because they love going to the mall, but because it's a place with tables, they can "do stuff," and the hours are long enough that they don't have to be home until bedtime.
In most neighborhoods, especially suburban ones, what's the alternative? There are extremely few public meeting places, especially ones that offer some food. At least malls are safe and well-lit. I mean, I live in a city and would rather have kids playing in a park or sitting at some tables in a park than congregating around a streetcorner, simply because they goof off and do dumb shit.
That sort of ties back to the gentrification thing too, though, as at least cities tend to offer places for people to go for free. You don't need a car to "get out of the house" in many cities, especially big ones.
My neighborhood is apparently one of the most diverse in the US, and also one of the densest. We apparently have like 33% white, 23% black, 24% asian, 13% filipino, and of the white/black there's a lot of them that are latino (puerto rican largely but also cuban, dominican, south american, etc.). I live in a relatively poor area of town (based on the census, I apparently make 3x as much as the average household just by myself) but it's also very safe. It's not the prettiest area, and there's a fair number of storefronts that have been closed for the past year+, but there's also thriving businesses and school kids, teenagers, adults, they all are outside and seem to get along. The neighborhood overall went without power for about a week during Sandy and, in general, most people were just outside complaining about it and shootin' the shit.
There's nothing particularly special about my neighborhood other than the fact that there's a park nearby, good bus routes, cheap transportation, lots of housing and small businesses, cheap fresh food for sale, and the PATH train to NYC. The infrastructure makes it easier to exist as someone without much money, and as such, it seems safer. Yeah, i'm not buying much from the 99¢ "up & less" store, but I'm not really their clientele.
I don't mind mall rats, unless they are taking up seats at the food court and not eating. I think the problem is more when they congregate in a random parking lot or outside a store. Kids skateboarding outside a store or filling up a parking lot is incredibly rude, as it may keep paying customers away.
Why would the mere presence of kids stop you going in to a store? When I was a kid, one of the places we would hang out was outside a local store, but we also spent our money on snacks and drinks in that store. We were the paying customers and unless you want kids to stay indoors watching TV all the time, you're going to see them outdoors with their friends.
I'm interested in where you draw the dividing line between them being the children of the people in your community and being feral youths prowling the street.
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Clown ShoesGive me hay or give me death.Registered Userregular
It feels weird to agree with SKFM, but yep, I will generally not go into a store that has a bunch of teenagers hanging out in front of it. Too much chance for trouble.
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
The funny thing about teenagers is that they all will congregate somewhere, so how does a municipality control where they congregate? Often they hang out at mall food courts, not because they love going to the mall, but because it's a place with tables, they can "do stuff," and the hours are long enough that they don't have to be home until bedtime.
In most neighborhoods, especially suburban ones, what's the alternative? There are extremely few public meeting places, especially ones that offer some food. At least malls are safe and well-lit. I mean, I live in a city and would rather have kids playing in a park or sitting at some tables in a park than congregating around a streetcorner, simply because they goof off and do dumb shit.
That sort of ties back to the gentrification thing too, though, as at least cities tend to offer places for people to go for free. You don't need a car to "get out of the house" in many cities, especially big ones.
My neighborhood is apparently one of the most diverse in the US, and also one of the densest. We apparently have like 33% white, 23% black, 24% asian, 13% filipino, and of the white/black there's a lot of them that are latino (puerto rican largely but also cuban, dominican, south american, etc.). I live in a relatively poor area of town (based on the census, I apparently make 3x as much as the average household just by myself) but it's also very safe. It's not the prettiest area, and there's a fair number of storefronts that have been closed for the past year+, but there's also thriving businesses and school kids, teenagers, adults, they all are outside and seem to get along. The neighborhood overall went without power for about a week during Sandy and, in general, most people were just outside complaining about it and shootin' the shit.
There's nothing particularly special about my neighborhood other than the fact that there's a park nearby, good bus routes, cheap transportation, lots of housing and small businesses, cheap fresh food for sale, and the PATH train to NYC. The infrastructure makes it easier to exist as someone without much money, and as such, it seems safer. Yeah, i'm not buying much from the 99¢ "up & less" store, but I'm not really their clientele.
I don't mind mall rats, unless they are taking up seats at the food court and not eating. I think the problem is more when they congregate in a random parking lot or outside a store. Kids skateboarding outside a store or filling up a parking lot is incredibly rude, as it may keep paying customers away.
Why would the mere presence of kids stop you going in to a store? When I was a kid, one of the places we would hang out was outside a local store, but we also spent our money on snacks and drinks in that store. We were the paying customers and unless you want kids to stay indoors watching TV all the time, you're going to see them outdoors with their friends.
I'm interested in where you draw the dividing line between them being the children of the people in your community and being feral youths prowling the street.
I don't think anyone cares about a small group of friends. I am talking about big gatherings (15+ kids) which I see a lot in parking lots or outside strip malls at night. If there are that many kids, being very loud, then it is disruptive. It's even worse when they all gather up with their obnoxious pimped out cars.
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Clown ShoesGive me hay or give me death.Registered Userregular
The funny thing about teenagers is that they all will congregate somewhere, so how does a municipality control where they congregate? Often they hang out at mall food courts, not because they love going to the mall, but because it's a place with tables, they can "do stuff," and the hours are long enough that they don't have to be home until bedtime.
In most neighborhoods, especially suburban ones, what's the alternative? There are extremely few public meeting places, especially ones that offer some food. At least malls are safe and well-lit. I mean, I live in a city and would rather have kids playing in a park or sitting at some tables in a park than congregating around a streetcorner, simply because they goof off and do dumb shit.
That sort of ties back to the gentrification thing too, though, as at least cities tend to offer places for people to go for free. You don't need a car to "get out of the house" in many cities, especially big ones.
My neighborhood is apparently one of the most diverse in the US, and also one of the densest. We apparently have like 33% white, 23% black, 24% asian, 13% filipino, and of the white/black there's a lot of them that are latino (puerto rican largely but also cuban, dominican, south american, etc.). I live in a relatively poor area of town (based on the census, I apparently make 3x as much as the average household just by myself) but it's also very safe. It's not the prettiest area, and there's a fair number of storefronts that have been closed for the past year+, but there's also thriving businesses and school kids, teenagers, adults, they all are outside and seem to get along. The neighborhood overall went without power for about a week during Sandy and, in general, most people were just outside complaining about it and shootin' the shit.
There's nothing particularly special about my neighborhood other than the fact that there's a park nearby, good bus routes, cheap transportation, lots of housing and small businesses, cheap fresh food for sale, and the PATH train to NYC. The infrastructure makes it easier to exist as someone without much money, and as such, it seems safer. Yeah, i'm not buying much from the 99¢ "up & less" store, but I'm not really their clientele.
I don't mind mall rats, unless they are taking up seats at the food court and not eating. I think the problem is more when they congregate in a random parking lot or outside a store. Kids skateboarding outside a store or filling up a parking lot is incredibly rude, as it may keep paying customers away.
Why would the mere presence of kids stop you going in to a store? When I was a kid, one of the places we would hang out was outside a local store, but we also spent our money on snacks and drinks in that store. We were the paying customers and unless you want kids to stay indoors watching TV all the time, you're going to see them outdoors with their friends.
I'm interested in where you draw the dividing line between them being the children of the people in your community and being feral youths prowling the street.
I don't think anyone cares about a small group of friends. I am talking about big gatherings (15+ kids) which I see a lot in parking lots or outside strip malls at night. If there are that many kids, being very loud, then it is disruptive. It's even worse when they all gather up with their obnoxious pimped out cars.
So is it numbers, age or volume that turns them from being members of your community to being a problem that needs to be policed? You're a lawyer so you should be able to spell out some specifics here.
Is a group of 16 8yr-olds a problem that needs to be removed? Is a group of 4 18yr-olds in "pimped out" cars who are quiet not a problem whereas 4 18yr-olds in "pimped out" cars who are above a certain decibel limit are a problem? Is the presence of the "pimped out" cars themselves offensive to your sensibilities?
People, in general, tend to congregate. If you have children, intend to have children, or have friends who have children, then those children will inevitably end up being "teenagers congregating anywhere" which you have professed to hate. When you were a teenager, did you never socialize with other people?
Do you seriously want everyone to be locked indoors between the ages of 12 and 20?
I know you don't actually want that, but how about you lay down some practical rules that the rest of the population can follow in order to avoid being classed as "rude" in your worldview.
Heh, we used to hang out by a convenience store or in Friendly's (yes, we were the lamest teenagers ever). There wasn't anywhere for us to go at first, though later on the skaters got a skatepark to hang out at. Teenagers want to congregate, as it's really their first opportunity for social interaction THEY choose, as opposed to playdates and parentally guided stuff. I think a better plan would just be aware of where they are and make sure it's a safe environment and people being violent or destructive get popped. You can't really stop teens from being shitheads, it's really just part of the process.
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
The funny thing about teenagers is that they all will congregate somewhere, so how does a municipality control where they congregate? Often they hang out at mall food courts, not because they love going to the mall, but because it's a place with tables, they can "do stuff," and the hours are long enough that they don't have to be home until bedtime.
In most neighborhoods, especially suburban ones, what's the alternative? There are extremely few public meeting places, especially ones that offer some food. At least malls are safe and well-lit. I mean, I live in a city and would rather have kids playing in a park or sitting at some tables in a park than congregating around a streetcorner, simply because they goof off and do dumb shit.
That sort of ties back to the gentrification thing too, though, as at least cities tend to offer places for people to go for free. You don't need a car to "get out of the house" in many cities, especially big ones.
My neighborhood is apparently one of the most diverse in the US, and also one of the densest. We apparently have like 33% white, 23% black, 24% asian, 13% filipino, and of the white/black there's a lot of them that are latino (puerto rican largely but also cuban, dominican, south american, etc.). I live in a relatively poor area of town (based on the census, I apparently make 3x as much as the average household just by myself) but it's also very safe. It's not the prettiest area, and there's a fair number of storefronts that have been closed for the past year+, but there's also thriving businesses and school kids, teenagers, adults, they all are outside and seem to get along. The neighborhood overall went without power for about a week during Sandy and, in general, most people were just outside complaining about it and shootin' the shit.
There's nothing particularly special about my neighborhood other than the fact that there's a park nearby, good bus routes, cheap transportation, lots of housing and small businesses, cheap fresh food for sale, and the PATH train to NYC. The infrastructure makes it easier to exist as someone without much money, and as such, it seems safer. Yeah, i'm not buying much from the 99¢ "up & less" store, but I'm not really their clientele.
I don't mind mall rats, unless they are taking up seats at the food court and not eating. I think the problem is more when they congregate in a random parking lot or outside a store. Kids skateboarding outside a store or filling up a parking lot is incredibly rude, as it may keep paying customers away.
Why would the mere presence of kids stop you going in to a store? When I was a kid, one of the places we would hang out was outside a local store, but we also spent our money on snacks and drinks in that store. We were the paying customers and unless you want kids to stay indoors watching TV all the time, you're going to see them outdoors with their friends.
I'm interested in where you draw the dividing line between them being the children of the people in your community and being feral youths prowling the street.
I don't think anyone cares about a small group of friends. I am talking about big gatherings (15+ kids) which I see a lot in parking lots or outside strip malls at night. If there are that many kids, being very loud, then it is disruptive. It's even worse when they all gather up with their obnoxious pimped out cars.
So is it numbers, age or volume that turns them from being members of your community to being a problem that needs to be policed? You're a lawyer so you should be able to spell out some specifics here.
Is a group of 16 8yr-olds a problem that needs to be removed? Is a group of 4 18yr-olds in "pimped out" cars who are quiet not a problem whereas 4 18yr-olds in "pimped out" cars who are above a certain decibel limit are a problem? Is the presence of the "pimped out" cars themselves offensive to your sensibilities?
People, in general, tend to congregate. If you have children, intend to have children, or have friends who have children, then those children will inevitably end up being "teenagers congregating anywhere" which you have professed to hate. When you were a teenager, did you never socialize with other people?
Do you seriously want everyone to be locked indoors between the ages of 12 and 20?
I know you don't actually want that, but how about you lay down some practical rules that the rest of the population can follow in order to avoid being classed as "rude" in your worldview.
I don't think there is much utility in laying out a set of rules that no one will follow. Suffice to say that anyone being loud and disruptive is rude, regardless of age IMO and parking lots or store fronts are not appropriate hangout spots.
When I was their age I hung out at friends house or the mall for the most part. Never outside stores or in parking lots. The parking lot thing in particular confuses me. Is it just because they have lights and are big? There are times when I see at least 50 teens in the parking lot of a nearby strip mall.
It feels weird to agree with SKFM, but yep, I will generally not go into a store that has a bunch of teenagers hanging out in front of it. Too much chance for trouble.
I feel like I live on a totally different planet than you. I have never once based my decision to go into a store or not based on if there are people out in front of it or not, or who those people are.
I have pretty much decided where I am going to before I even step out my front door, and then I go there. Other people don't really factor in.
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
It feels weird to agree with SKFM, but yep, I will generally not go into a store that has a bunch of teenagers hanging out in front of it. Too much chance for trouble.
I feel like I live on a totally different planet than you. I have never once based my decision to go into a store or not based on if there are people out in front of it or not, or who those people are.
I have pretty much decided where I am going to before I even step out my front door, and then I go there. Other people don't really factor in.
You never just walk and go into random places that catch your eye?
Man, the proportion of kids that do petty crimes or, I dunno, mug you because you're older (seriously, avoiding a store because there are teenagers there? How fucking terrifying the world must be for you) is something like 5% of teenagers at most. Apparently you're all picking up these stereotypes from shitty 80s movies that convinced everyone that teenagers were horrible little monsters to be disrespected at best, stalked at campgrounds and murdered at worst.
This is pretty much how racism works. You take the behavior of the worst 5% of people and then apply it to every member of that population you see and don't know. It's called ageism when you do it to people of a different age than you.
We joke about this a lot, but the reality is that your lawn is private property, and you have every right not to have people on it.
Perhaps a better way to address the situation is to ask why someone has such a problem with people being on their lawn. Extending one's sense of self to the grass surrounding one's house is strange.
Man, the proportion of kids that do petty crimes or, I dunno, mug you because you're older (seriously, avoiding a store because there are teenagers there? How fucking terrifying the world must be for you) is something like 5% of teenagers at most. Apparently you're all picking up these stereotypes from shitty 80s movies that convinced everyone that teenagers were horrible little monsters to be disrespected at best, stalked at campgrounds and murdered at worst.
This is pretty much how racism works. You take the behavior of the worst 5% of people and then apply it to every member of that population you see and don't know. It's called ageism when you do it to people of a different age than you.
Have you ever interacted with teenagers? They don't have to commit petty crimes or mug anyone to be a huge pain in the ass. If I'm already at a place I'll bully through it and go about my business, but when I'm at home thinking about which of two nearby hardware stores I should visit to get a fluorescent lightbulb? You bet the quantity of obnoxious youths present will factor into that. I don't like being shouted at, insulted, or threatened, even if I'm reasonably confident that they're not stupid enough to escalate the situation.
Man, the proportion of kids that do petty crimes or, I dunno, mug you because you're older (seriously, avoiding a store because there are teenagers there? How fucking terrifying the world must be for you) is something like 5% of teenagers at most. Apparently you're all picking up these stereotypes from shitty 80s movies that convinced everyone that teenagers were horrible little monsters to be disrespected at best, stalked at campgrounds and murdered at worst.
This is pretty much how racism works. You take the behavior of the worst 5% of people and then apply it to every member of that population you see and don't know. It's called ageism when you do it to people of a different age than you.
Have you ever interacted with blacks? They don't have to commit petty crimes or mug anyone to be a huge pain in the ass. If I'm already at a place I'll bully through it and go about my business, but when I'm at home thinking about which of two nearby hardware stores I should visit to get a fluorescent lightbulb? You bet the quantity of obnoxious blacks present will factor into that. I don't like being shouted at, insulted, or threatened, even if I'm reasonably confident that they're not stupid enough to escalate the situation.
Man, the proportion of kids that do petty crimes or, I dunno, mug you because you're older (seriously, avoiding a store because there are teenagers there? How fucking terrifying the world must be for you) is something like 5% of teenagers at most. Apparently you're all picking up these stereotypes from shitty 80s movies that convinced everyone that teenagers were horrible little monsters to be disrespected at best, stalked at campgrounds and murdered at worst.
This is pretty much how racism works. You take the behavior of the worst 5% of people and then apply it to every member of that population you see and don't know. It's called ageism when you do it to people of a different age than you.
Have you ever interacted with blacks? They don't have to commit petty crimes or mug anyone to be a huge pain in the ass. If I'm already at a place I'll bully through it and go about my business, but when I'm at home thinking about which of two nearby hardware stores I should visit to get a fluorescent lightbulb? You bet the quantity of obnoxious blacks present will factor into that. I don't like being shouted at, insulted, or threatened, even if I'm reasonably confident that they're not stupid enough to escalate the situation.
Did you miss the point? Do you need me to explicate?
No, I got your point. You're so terrifically clever that you don't need to waste words on us useless forum plebs. Instead, you can merely run a few sed commands on the post you're quoting and mash the reply button, confident that your stunning eloquence will win you the admiration of the lesser mortals. Surely no one's ever done that before!
Obviously if I regarded [all black people] the way I regard [groups of teenagers loitering outside shopping malls] I'd be a racist. It's so astonishingly fucking obvious you oughtn't have wasted even the few keystrokes you deigned to spend on pointing it out. If I regarded [all black people] the way I regard [caffeinated beverages] I'd be pretty damn racist, too, because I like my tea black. None of this is relevant because "black people" aren't what's actually being discussed. I'm talking about teenagers, specifically those who choose to loiter in groups outside places of business. If you can't parse an argument with such a tiny degree of nuance then I think we're done here.
You're talking about people using the same sort of thinking that causes racism. You're describing all teenagers as being like this mental picture of teenagers you have. This is reasonable to do for an object that is typically uniform like coke or pepsi or tea versus coffee. This is not at all reasonable to do to living breathing human beings.
Just because they're teenagers doesn't mean they're going to harass you outside of stores or be a pain in the ass. Treating the situation like all teenagers do that is goosery. Treating the situation like it's something they do because they're teenagers is also goosery. The point of my post was that you're not only using goosey language, you're using the exact same goosey language that fuels racism.
If you can't understand that then yes, I do think we're done here.
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
"all teenagers hanging out in groups in store parking lots" is a subset very unlike "all black people". We're judging based on their behavior. Check your lazy rhetorical device and stop being a goose.
"all teenagers hanging out in groups in store parking lots" is a subset very unlike "all black people". We're judging based on their behavior. Check your lazy rhetorical device and stop being a goose.
Really? So if there were a bunch of 70 year old people together in a group in a store parking lot, you would judge them the same way? Judging them apparently based on their behavior of standing near each other in a store parking lot.
Remember, no other behavior was specifically mentioned when this was brought up, any descriptions of behavior were added on later, based on assumptions of them being teenagers. CycloneRanger made the assumption that because they were teenagers, that they were obnoxious, and would shout, insult, and threaten. He didn't say that he would avoid places that had groups of people that were obnoxious, shouted, insulted, and threatened outside them. He said that he would avoid places that had groups of teenagers around them, assuming that such groups would meet that criteria ("Have you ever interacted with teenagers?").
Soralin on
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
We joke about this a lot, but the reality is that your lawn is private property, and you have every right not to have people on it.
Perhaps a better way to address the situation is to ask why someone has such a problem with people being on their lawn. Extending one's sense of self to the grass surrounding one's house is strange.
Locke? That is why I care about property rights so very much. I put forth my labor to acquire or make a thing, and if you deprive me of its use or enjoyment, then you have taken my labor without compensation, and I don't care for being enslaved.
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spacekungfumanPoor and minority-filledRegistered User, __BANNED USERSregular
"all teenagers hanging out in groups in store parking lots" is a subset very unlike "all black people". We're judging based on their behavior. Check your lazy rhetorical device and stop being a goose.
Really? So if there were a bunch of 70 year old people together in a group in a store parking lot, you would judge them the same way? Judging them apparently based on their behavior of standing near each other in a store parking lot.
Remember, no other behavior was specifically mentioned when this was brought up, any descriptions of behavior were added on later, based on assumptions of them being teenagers. CycloneRanger made the assumption that because they were teenagers, that they were obnoxious, and would shout, insult, and threaten. He didn't say that he would avoid places that had groups of people that were obnoxious, shouted, insulted, and threatened outside them. He said that he would avoid places that had groups of teenagers around them, assuming that such groups would meet that criteria ("Have you ever interacted with teenagers?").
I don't like groups of teenagers because they are loud, obnoxious and painfully unselfaware of how obnoxious and stupid their behavior comes across. My wife and I were in a restaurant by NYU once (the peanut butter and jelly place, which is awesome) and it was extremely obvious the kids eating at the table next to us were college freshmen who just moved into their dorm, based on their (loud and so overheard) conversation. It was funny to hear them all posturing, trying to look cool without knowing anything about each other (part of the humor was that some of them looked like "cool kids" and some clearly did not, so the group did not seem likely to last). Younger teenagers in groups seem to be that foolishness writ large, only much louder. They do stupid things to show how brave or outgoing they are. They intentionally curse very loud in public to show they just don't care what people think (of course, they do). The whole thing is exhausting and annoying. Better to avoid them in favor of people that actually act like they are part of our civilization.
"all teenagers hanging out in groups in store parking lots" is a subset very unlike "all black people". We're judging based on their behavior. Check your lazy rhetorical device and stop being a goose.
Really? So if there were a bunch of 70 year old people together in a group in a store parking lot, you would judge them the same way? Judging them apparently based on their behavior of standing near each other in a store parking lot.
Remember, no other behavior was specifically mentioned when this was brought up, any descriptions of behavior were added on later, based on assumptions of them being teenagers. CycloneRanger made the assumption that because they were teenagers, that they were obnoxious, and would shout, insult, and threaten. He didn't say that he would avoid places that had groups of people that were obnoxious, shouted, insulted, and threatened outside them. He said that he would avoid places that had groups of teenagers around them, assuming that such groups would meet that criteria ("Have you ever interacted with teenagers?").
I would, yes. They are likely proselytizing.
I avoid any large group of people that isn't common place. For instance, if there's 5-10 25 year olds (black or white or mixed) I will avoid it because it's most likely an impromptu game of magic or D&D larping.
If I'm at the beach, well, that's a common situation.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
We joke about this a lot, but the reality is that your lawn is private property, and you have every right not to have people on it.
Perhaps a better way to address the situation is to ask why someone has such a problem with people being on their lawn. Extending one's sense of self to the grass surrounding one's house is strange.
Locke? That is why I care about property rights so very much. I put forth my labor to acquire or make a thing, and if you deprive me of its use or enjoyment, then you have taken my labor without compensation, and I don't care for being enslaved.
That's not being enslaved. In fact, it reminds me of how a Libertarian would react about property rights. It's logical to care about your property and it's a bad thing to have people steal or destroy it but equating that to anyone who steps on your lawn is going overboard IMO.
"all teenagers hanging out in groups in store parking lots" is a subset very unlike "all black people". We're judging based on their behavior. Check your lazy rhetorical device and stop being a goose.
Really? So if there were a bunch of 70 year old people together in a group in a store parking lot, you would judge them the same way? Judging them apparently based on their behavior of standing near each other in a store parking lot.
Remember, no other behavior was specifically mentioned when this was brought up, any descriptions of behavior were added on later, based on assumptions of them being teenagers. CycloneRanger made the assumption that because they were teenagers, that they were obnoxious, and would shout, insult, and threaten. He didn't say that he would avoid places that had groups of people that were obnoxious, shouted, insulted, and threatened outside them. He said that he would avoid places that had groups of teenagers around them, assuming that such groups would meet that criteria ("Have you ever interacted with teenagers?").
I don't like groups of teenagers because they are loud, obnoxious and painfully unselfaware of how obnoxious and stupid their behavior comes across. My wife and I were in a restaurant by NYU once (the peanut butter and jelly place, which is awesome) and it was extremely obvious the kids eating at the table next to us were college freshmen who just moved into their dorm, based on their (loud and so overheard) conversation. It was funny to hear them all posturing, trying to look cool without knowing anything about each other (part of the humor was that some of them looked like "cool kids" and some clearly did not, so the group did not seem likely to last). Younger teenagers in groups seem to be that foolishness writ large, only much louder. They do stupid things to show how brave or outgoing they are. They intentionally curse very loud in public to show they just don't care what people think (of course, they do). The whole thing is exhausting and annoying. Better to avoid them in favor of people that actually act like they are part of our civilization.
You know that all teenagers don't act like this all the time, right? So you encountered some teenage assholes. News at 11. Teenagers are actually part of civilization. They're not aliens or anything. It's fine to avoid them in those circumstances, I'd do it too, but you don't need to judge every teenager by them. Nor is that behavior limited to teenagers, it's just done less in public by adults.
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Teenagers have to congregate somewhere. Graffiti and vandalism is a petty crime compared to murder, selling illegal drugs (meth etc), torture, treason, slavery, high level white collar crime and more. Teenagers who commit those crimes get punished, they don't deserve to have their entire lives ruined for making bad decisions. We all have done bad shit at that age. It's a natural stage in human development.
Is this actually true? I've seen it repeated a lot, but my lolanecdotes never really lived up to it.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
I assume so. It's how we learn who we are.
We joke about this a lot, but the reality is that your lawn is private property, and you have every right not to have people on it.
If I'm rural enough, I can probably shoot them too.
We also had to defend the porch from possums and raccoons on numerous occasions. Fuckers are mean.
Yep. Shooting at children for stealing your fish.
I meant in context of vandalism/graffiti and whatever is happening in Bowen's area.
It's something I and my peers never participated in. I mean, I was aware that it happened, but it was always something I attributed to lower economic groups. (Yet again something that can be solved by income equality) And not something that "everybody goes through as growing up"
In hindsight though, my friends at that age would have been in the perfect position for those types of petty crime, since our (then unknown) social standing pretty much made us immune to repercussions.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
My take away from that is that your father thought it was worth shooting at routinely to go fishing. . .
Not everyone does petty crime. My friends and I didn't. Teenagers do make bad decisions, though. Petty crime definitely isn't monopolized by the poor. Wealthy kids have the safety net of connections and parents who buy the best lawyers to take the charges down to almost nothing or worse, cover up crimes so little Timmy's future is secure.
Hmm, okay. I think I just took away the wrong thing based on your reply to SKFM.
Probably just my blinding hate for people younger than me.
Edit: Though as an aside, the general consensus of the 'troublemaking teens' was blamed on English speaking parents not raising their kids properly.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
There had to be mercury in the water supply back then.
Oh man, just recently we had a raccoon living by our front door (kinda on the roof, kinda on these pillar things) and Im pretty sure it was trying to find a place to give birth. The fucking thing made predator noises and hissed and shit. Entering/leaving the house was like running the gauntlet.
12 gauge to the face would clear that right up.
In most neighborhoods, especially suburban ones, what's the alternative? There are extremely few public meeting places, especially ones that offer some food. At least malls are safe and well-lit. I mean, I live in a city and would rather have kids playing in a park or sitting at some tables in a park than congregating around a streetcorner, simply because they goof off and do dumb shit.
That sort of ties back to the gentrification thing too, though, as at least cities tend to offer places for people to go for free. You don't need a car to "get out of the house" in many cities, especially big ones.
My neighborhood is apparently one of the most diverse in the US, and also one of the densest. We apparently have like 33% white, 23% black, 24% asian, 13% filipino, and of the white/black there's a lot of them that are latino (puerto rican largely but also cuban, dominican, south american, etc.). I live in a relatively poor area of town (based on the census, I apparently make 3x as much as the average household just by myself) but it's also very safe. It's not the prettiest area, and there's a fair number of storefronts that have been closed for the past year+, but there's also thriving businesses and school kids, teenagers, adults, they all are outside and seem to get along. The neighborhood overall went without power for about a week during Sandy and, in general, most people were just outside complaining about it and shootin' the shit.
There's nothing particularly special about my neighborhood other than the fact that there's a park nearby, good bus routes, cheap transportation, lots of housing and small businesses, cheap fresh food for sale, and the PATH train to NYC. The infrastructure makes it easier to exist as someone without much money, and as such, it seems safer. Yeah, i'm not buying much from the 99¢ "up & less" store, but I'm not really their clientele.
I don't mind mall rats, unless they are taking up seats at the food court and not eating. I think the problem is more when they congregate in a random parking lot or outside a store. Kids skateboarding outside a store or filling up a parking lot is incredibly rude, as it may keep paying customers away.
Why would the mere presence of kids stop you going in to a store? When I was a kid, one of the places we would hang out was outside a local store, but we also spent our money on snacks and drinks in that store. We were the paying customers and unless you want kids to stay indoors watching TV all the time, you're going to see them outdoors with their friends.
I'm interested in where you draw the dividing line between them being the children of the people in your community and being feral youths prowling the street.
I don't think anyone cares about a small group of friends. I am talking about big gatherings (15+ kids) which I see a lot in parking lots or outside strip malls at night. If there are that many kids, being very loud, then it is disruptive. It's even worse when they all gather up with their obnoxious pimped out cars.
So is it numbers, age or volume that turns them from being members of your community to being a problem that needs to be policed? You're a lawyer so you should be able to spell out some specifics here.
Is a group of 16 8yr-olds a problem that needs to be removed? Is a group of 4 18yr-olds in "pimped out" cars who are quiet not a problem whereas 4 18yr-olds in "pimped out" cars who are above a certain decibel limit are a problem? Is the presence of the "pimped out" cars themselves offensive to your sensibilities?
People, in general, tend to congregate. If you have children, intend to have children, or have friends who have children, then those children will inevitably end up being "teenagers congregating anywhere" which you have professed to hate. When you were a teenager, did you never socialize with other people?
Do you seriously want everyone to be locked indoors between the ages of 12 and 20?
I know you don't actually want that, but how about you lay down some practical rules that the rest of the population can follow in order to avoid being classed as "rude" in your worldview.
I don't think there is much utility in laying out a set of rules that no one will follow. Suffice to say that anyone being loud and disruptive is rude, regardless of age IMO and parking lots or store fronts are not appropriate hangout spots.
When I was their age I hung out at friends house or the mall for the most part. Never outside stores or in parking lots. The parking lot thing in particular confuses me. Is it just because they have lights and are big? There are times when I see at least 50 teens in the parking lot of a nearby strip mall.
I feel like I live on a totally different planet than you. I have never once based my decision to go into a store or not based on if there are people out in front of it or not, or who those people are.
I have pretty much decided where I am going to before I even step out my front door, and then I go there. Other people don't really factor in.
You never just walk and go into random places that catch your eye?
This is pretty much how racism works. You take the behavior of the worst 5% of people and then apply it to every member of that population you see and don't know. It's called ageism when you do it to people of a different age than you.
Perhaps a better way to address the situation is to ask why someone has such a problem with people being on their lawn. Extending one's sense of self to the grass surrounding one's house is strange.
Are you, by chance, a teenager?
Obviously if I regarded [all black people] the way I regard [groups of teenagers loitering outside shopping malls] I'd be a racist. It's so astonishingly fucking obvious you oughtn't have wasted even the few keystrokes you deigned to spend on pointing it out. If I regarded [all black people] the way I regard [caffeinated beverages] I'd be pretty damn racist, too, because I like my tea black. None of this is relevant because "black people" aren't what's actually being discussed. I'm talking about teenagers, specifically those who choose to loiter in groups outside places of business. If you can't parse an argument with such a tiny degree of nuance then I think we're done here.
Just because they're teenagers doesn't mean they're going to harass you outside of stores or be a pain in the ass. Treating the situation like all teenagers do that is goosery. Treating the situation like it's something they do because they're teenagers is also goosery. The point of my post was that you're not only using goosey language, you're using the exact same goosey language that fuels racism.
If you can't understand that then yes, I do think we're done here.
Remember, no other behavior was specifically mentioned when this was brought up, any descriptions of behavior were added on later, based on assumptions of them being teenagers. CycloneRanger made the assumption that because they were teenagers, that they were obnoxious, and would shout, insult, and threaten. He didn't say that he would avoid places that had groups of people that were obnoxious, shouted, insulted, and threatened outside them. He said that he would avoid places that had groups of teenagers around them, assuming that such groups would meet that criteria ("Have you ever interacted with teenagers?").
Locke? That is why I care about property rights so very much. I put forth my labor to acquire or make a thing, and if you deprive me of its use or enjoyment, then you have taken my labor without compensation, and I don't care for being enslaved.
I don't like groups of teenagers because they are loud, obnoxious and painfully unselfaware of how obnoxious and stupid their behavior comes across. My wife and I were in a restaurant by NYU once (the peanut butter and jelly place, which is awesome) and it was extremely obvious the kids eating at the table next to us were college freshmen who just moved into their dorm, based on their (loud and so overheard) conversation. It was funny to hear them all posturing, trying to look cool without knowing anything about each other (part of the humor was that some of them looked like "cool kids" and some clearly did not, so the group did not seem likely to last). Younger teenagers in groups seem to be that foolishness writ large, only much louder. They do stupid things to show how brave or outgoing they are. They intentionally curse very loud in public to show they just don't care what people think (of course, they do). The whole thing is exhausting and annoying. Better to avoid them in favor of people that actually act like they are part of our civilization.
I would, yes. They are likely proselytizing.
I avoid any large group of people that isn't common place. For instance, if there's 5-10 25 year olds (black or white or mixed) I will avoid it because it's most likely an impromptu game of magic or D&D larping.
If I'm at the beach, well, that's a common situation.
That's not being enslaved. In fact, it reminds me of how a Libertarian would react about property rights. It's logical to care about your property and it's a bad thing to have people steal or destroy it but equating that to anyone who steps on your lawn is going overboard IMO.
You know that all teenagers don't act like this all the time, right? So you encountered some teenage assholes. News at 11. Teenagers are actually part of civilization. They're not aliens or anything. It's fine to avoid them in those circumstances, I'd do it too, but you don't need to judge every teenager by them. Nor is that behavior limited to teenagers, it's just done less in public by adults.