nevilleThe Worst Gay(Seriously. The Worst!)Registered Userregular
Update:
Last Thursday I sent them a demand letter, stating all of the damage, violations of law (including the precise laws and statutes they broke -- big thanks to @sarukun for finding those for me), and what I expected back.
Namely, that I expect a full refund for the overcharges, then after all the other damages are subtracted, it negates the $900.
So basically "GIMME ALL MY MONEY BACK"
I said they had 7 days to respond; obviously they did nothing.
I called and the receptionist was like "You haven't received your things?" and when i said i sent a fax, she was like "Oh. ok. I'll have claims call you back in 10 minutes." I said "The last 3x I was told that, no one called me back." But she assured me it would happen.
Over 30 minutes later with no call, I call them -again-:
Their defense? "Oh you didn't call to confirm we got the fax."
Me: "Yeah, so what? It's not my job to make sure you are responsible."
"Well we can't do anything without a document."
me: "Yeah, that's why technology is so great. Even if YOU are scumbags, it still sends a confirmation, so I know it was received."
"Well maybe someone got it but threw it away"
lol.
me: "Throwing away legal documents doesn't remove the responsibility. Go ahead, but I'm proceeding with legal action, so my advice would be get your business in order."
She just asked for the fax again. W/e
At this point I'm going to file in Small Claims.
My plan is once I win a default judgement (I know they won't show up), to take a lien out on them.
I know a sheriff should serve it, but my question is: Should I go down to be present for it?
My worry is that something may go wrong and then it'll be their word vs someone else I don't know.
I suppose the problem with making a 7 hour (each way) trip is that if they refuse to let us in (I dunno if they can do that, but looking at their office, it has a big gate in front of the door, so it could), it'd be time and money wasted.
I worked at the Sheriff's dept in San Diego for years and we would handle liens often - this may not apply to whatever procedures your department uses, but we would have the deputy go with the person and make sure they are allowed in to collect their lien. The "call for service" remains open for the duration, generally 8+ hours a day for multiple days. If anything ever goes wrong, you quickly dial 9-1-1 or whatever you need to do and they will be there quickly as the call is already waiting and the deputies obviously know exactly where it is and who is involved.
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nevilleThe Worst Gay(Seriously. The Worst!)Registered Userregular
I worked at the Sheriff's dept in San Diego for years and we would handle liens often - this may not apply to whatever procedures your department uses, but we would have the deputy go with the person and make sure they are allowed in to collect their lien. The "call for service" remains open for the duration, generally 8+ hours a day for multiple days. If anything ever goes wrong, you quickly dial 9-1-1 or whatever you need to do and they will be there quickly as the call is already waiting and the deputies obviously know exactly where it is and who is involved.
@Karrmer so I would have to be present to collect the lien, then?
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143999Tellin' yanot askin' ya, not pleadin' with yaRegistered Userregular
I worked at the Sheriff's dept in San Diego for years and we would handle liens often - this may not apply to whatever procedures your department uses, but we would have the deputy go with the person and make sure they are allowed in to collect their lien. The "call for service" remains open for the duration, generally 8+ hours a day for multiple days. If anything ever goes wrong, you quickly dial 9-1-1 or whatever you need to do and they will be there quickly as the call is already waiting and the deputies obviously know exactly where it is and who is involved.
@Karrmer so I would have to be present to collect the lien, then?
If so, I wonder if you can somehow add the costs involved to the amount owed you.
I really don't know but I'll ask. Most cases obviously were locals with liens on other locals so they probably preferred being present to collect. All I know is that was how 99% of them that I handled were dealt with
Nevs, thanks to your horror story, I yelped my movers and did some checking to make sure they were legit. And they were great! So you helped me out in a way, if you'd like a (tiny) silver lining.
I think you automatically get a lien on any real property they own in the city your small claims case is in (IANAL, but i'm going through this process right now), when you win a judgement.
Then you can file a Writ of Execution to have a sherriff go over there and take shit to sell, and satisfy your lien. I'd probably file the writ on one of the trucks, it seems to me that would be the easiest thing to identify. I think you can check with the SDAT database in your state, to see if their company has any real assets (like the building from which they operate or something). I'm not sure how exactly that works though.
Collecting on a judgement SUUUCKS, sounds like your experience may be as painful or more painful than mine. On the bright side, you earn 10% (at least in MD) per annum interest on a judgement, so the longer they delay, the more they owe. it's a pitiful silver lining (considering, they may never pay depending on how slick they are), but, glass half full right?
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nevilleThe Worst Gay(Seriously. The Worst!)Registered Userregular
I think you automatically get a lien on any real property they own in the city your small claims case is in (IANAL, but i'm going through this process right now), when you win a judgement.
Then you can file a Writ of Execution to have a sherriff go over there and take shit to sell, and satisfy your lien. I'd probably file the writ on one of the trucks, it seems to me that would be the easiest thing to identify. I think you can check with the SDAT database in your state, to see if their company has any real assets (like the building from which they operate or something). I'm not sure how exactly that works though.
Collecting on a judgement SUUUCKS, sounds like your experience may be as painful or more painful than mine. On the bright side, you earn 10% (at least in MD) per annum interest on a judgement, so the longer they delay, the more they owe. it's a pitiful silver lining (considering, they may never pay depending on how slick they are), but, glass half full right?
Hey @Dr. Frenchenstein that is really useful information, thank you.
Can you tell me more about how collecting "sucks"? It sounds (or at least I was hoping) that you just get the judgement, have an officer go over and they are forced to pay or else forfeit whatever possessions you want. Is it not that simple?
Also, do I need to be there in person? I can allocate a day/two for such a trip, if I really need to, but obviously I'd prefer not to if I can avoid it, since that's about a 7 hour drive each way for me.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
Hey @Dr. Frenchenstein that is really useful information, thank you.
Can you tell me more about how collecting "sucks"? It sounds (or at least I was hoping) that you just get the judgement, have an officer go over and they are forced to pay or else forfeit whatever possessions you want. Is it not that simple?
Also, do I need to be there in person? I can allocate a day/two for such a trip, if I really need to, but obviously I'd prefer not to if I can avoid it, since that's about a 7 hour drive each way for me.
No, it's not just "go over there with a cop and they pay up or you get to take shit" (I didn't mean that snarky, promise) it's more likely a scenario where you win a default judgement for X dollars, they refuse to pay and get an even slightly competent attorney to appeal or drag out the payment for (seriously) years, until you finally win a secondary judgement to garnish their wages, at which point they can at any time file bankruptcy on that company and use another.
Collecting from people is fucking hard. That's the bullet point to take away from this.
in theory it's "Sherriff/Constable goes over(or private service guy), serves guy with papers noting writ of execution, guy gets 30 days to pay up. guy doesn't pay, sheriff/constable comes, prevents access & takes his shit, sells it at auction, you get proceeds up to the amount of your judgement"
i imagine your company would use those 30 days to disappear whatever assets the company has or some shit. that's why you should file on a truck or something they definitely own, IANAL but i think that places a lien on that item and they can't do anything with it until that is satisfied (except go bankrupt).
I'll let you know how mine works out but currently it's "can't find guy to make him pay me, issue warrant for his arrest, guy is in other state somewhere, warrant is useless. Try to get writ of execution, can't find guy to serve papers, clerk shrugs shoulders, my head asplode." I'm assuming there is some sort of alternative service out there, but the clerks at the district court aren't being very forthcoming/Don't know.
That's not really a comparable example because BoA isn't a shady, fly by night company that can just declare bankruptcy and then reopen under a slightly different name.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
Okay, technically yes, you can win a judgement which will entitle you to take another person's goods for the purpose of sale to reclaim debt owed (which until now I thought was impossible unless it was on rent-to-own goods, because it seems illegal as hell), but that's after the party refuses to pay.
Most likely though a judge is still going to go through the model of something more closely related to a garnishment of wages before they allow a wronged party to just show up with a couple of cops and start taking trucks from a company, and in the time it takes to get all of this stuff filed and sit through appeals or extensions, that company is going to file bankruptcy, or actually fight this.
are YOU on the beer list?
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nevilleThe Worst Gay(Seriously. The Worst!)Registered Userregular
Okay, technically yes, you can win a judgement which will entitle you to take another person's goods for the purpose of sale to reclaim debt owed (which until now I thought was impossible unless it was on rent-to-own goods, because it seems illegal as hell), but that's after the party refuses to pay.
Most likely though a judge is still going to go through the model of something more closely related to a garnishment of wages before they allow a wronged party to just show up with a couple of cops and start taking trucks from a company, and in the time it takes to get all of this stuff filed and sit through appeals or extensions, that company is going to file bankruptcy, or actually fight this.
No company is going to file bankruptcy over $3k, that's silly.
And I don't think they'll garnish wages; it's a business, not a guy behind on his child support.
They took money fraudulently, I think it's likely I will get a default payment (they're not going to bother to show), so I'll wait my 30 days then get a lien and hope to put this crap behind me.
You'd be surprised. 30 days is more than enough time to shift infrastructure and accounts to a new shell business, and then filing for bankruptcy with no assets to the business (sold off to make money). Or just straight up close shop.
Contractors do this pretty regularly, there's no easy way to track these guys. Once they fuck up, they shut down and start new.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I'll let you know how mine works out but currently it's "can't find guy to make him pay me, issue warrant for his arrest, guy is in other state somewhere, warrant is useless. Try to get writ of execution, can't find guy to serve papers, clerk shrugs shoulders, my head asplode." I'm assuming there is some sort of alternative service out there, but the clerks at the district court aren't being very forthcoming/Don't know.
In fact, there is! It was pretty popular in the mid-80s, though it's sort of fallen out of favor in recent years. I know a few people that have been made whole through this method. It worked out fairly well for most of them, though things did tend to get heated very often and the outcome always seemed to be up in the air until the eleventh hour. TBH I'm not sure I should even be telling you about it, so try to keep it on the down-low.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKERS
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
Don't get me wrong Neville, I'm rooting for you because these guys suck. I just want to make sure that you're not just expecting to walk up with a couple of cops because they don't show up to court after 30 days and start taking their shit. There's just more to it than that, regardless of what the Daily Show tells us.
It's like Bowen said, it's easy for small business to do this, and they do it ALL THE TIME. I personally had something similar happen to me with an auto repair shop and never collected because they shut their doors and changed business. I know a bar in my college town that did this every time they got busted for selling to minors.
Also, you have to consider this, they dicked you out of three grand because they suck. How many others have they dicked over? Who else do they owe money to? They're not going to close up shop over three grand, but they'll sure as hell do it over 20 or 30 grand if that's what they owe in business loans and existing settlements and anything else they've got on their plate you're not aware of.
Again, I want you to win, hell I almost NEED you to win just to feel better about this thread and what's happened to you. I'm sympathetic to your cause since I've been in a similar situation. I'm just saying, you've (most likely) got a longer road than 30 to 60 days ahead of you, and you need to be prepared for that.
Okay, technically yes, you can win a judgement which will entitle you to take another person's goods for the purpose of sale to reclaim debt owed (which until now I thought was impossible unless it was on rent-to-own goods, because it seems illegal as hell), but that's after the party refuses to pay.
Most likely though a judge is still going to go through the model of something more closely related to a garnishment of wages before they allow a wronged party to just show up with a couple of cops and start taking trucks from a company, and in the time it takes to get all of this stuff filed and sit through appeals or extensions, that company is going to file bankruptcy, or actually fight this.
It depends on what you file for, if you demonstrate that this company is shady as hell, the judge may let you do some crazy shit to teach them a lesson. Do i think the judge would let you foreclose on a $300k warehouse to pay a $3k judgement? most likely no. a $30k truck? maybe. You could garnish revenues, but like everyone is saying, this place will likely just close up shop. it's probably less than $3k to reincorporate (or whatever). That's why getting the writ on something concrete of which you can prove ownership is a good bet. Bankruptcy is very much abused in this country. Not long ago, some guys dog attacked some kid, when his parents sued for medical expenses, he just declared bankruptcy and got off scott free (sorta...)
BTW it's definitely not as easy as: win case, go over with cop to sell their shit. There were a bunch of hoops to jump through in mine, but mine wasn't small claims. since you can't even have a lawyer in small claims, i think they forego the whole "oral exam" (where you ask the defendant where their assets are, and they tell you to go fuck yourself, it's very efficient) thing. You just have to research their assets, and file the proper paperwork, then hope for the best. with real estate, you don't even have to serve the person individually! The sherriff just posts it on the door!
That's not really a comparable example because BoA isn't a shady, fly by night company that can just declare bankruptcy and then reopen under a slightly different name.
I'm not saying that would be exactly Neville's experience, but it does work (theoretically, as i said).
Anyhow, they ended up showing up at 9:30 (shockingly late, who would have guessed) and I called the policy for a civil standby to make sure nothing happened.
I never realized that was a thing you could do. I should have, and probably would have figured it out if the situation required it, but it's never entered my mind.
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The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
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nevilleThe Worst Gay(Seriously. The Worst!)Registered Userregular
Finally, some good news; Bank of America sided with me, so the $1700 charge won't be sent back to the scammers. I sent off much more info (complete with pictures) to Chase today, so here's hoping the remaining amount gets credited back to me too. (I'm still out $690 which is less than their initial quote, but if you add what I had to pay for repairs/etc, I'm still about $500 out).
be glad it didnt go to court, etc. I just got a property seized to cover a judgement debt. turns out i have to cough up $3k just to get the city to get them to take it to auction. so it seems, i would get my money back... you know, if i had 3 grand lying around so i could get the 10 grand owed to me... totally makes sense.
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Last Thursday I sent them a demand letter, stating all of the damage, violations of law (including the precise laws and statutes they broke -- big thanks to @sarukun for finding those for me), and what I expected back.
Namely, that I expect a full refund for the overcharges, then after all the other damages are subtracted, it negates the $900.
So basically "GIMME ALL MY MONEY BACK"
I said they had 7 days to respond; obviously they did nothing.
I called and the receptionist was like "You haven't received your things?" and when i said i sent a fax, she was like "Oh. ok. I'll have claims call you back in 10 minutes." I said "The last 3x I was told that, no one called me back." But she assured me it would happen.
Over 30 minutes later with no call, I call them -again-:
Their defense? "Oh you didn't call to confirm we got the fax."
Me: "Yeah, so what? It's not my job to make sure you are responsible."
"Well we can't do anything without a document."
me: "Yeah, that's why technology is so great. Even if YOU are scumbags, it still sends a confirmation, so I know it was received."
"Well maybe someone got it but threw it away"
lol.
me: "Throwing away legal documents doesn't remove the responsibility. Go ahead, but I'm proceeding with legal action, so my advice would be get your business in order."
She just asked for the fax again. W/e
At this point I'm going to file in Small Claims.
My plan is once I win a default judgement (I know they won't show up), to take a lien out on them.
I know a sheriff should serve it, but my question is: Should I go down to be present for it?
My worry is that something may go wrong and then it'll be their word vs someone else I don't know.
I suppose the problem with making a 7 hour (each way) trip is that if they refuse to let us in (I dunno if they can do that, but looking at their office, it has a big gate in front of the door, so it could), it'd be time and money wasted.
Thoughts?
I'm sure there's a way to allow me to be your legal representative; no idea how complicated that might be.
@Karrmer so I would have to be present to collect the lien, then?
If so, I wonder if you can somehow add the costs involved to the amount owed you.
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Then you can file a Writ of Execution to have a sherriff go over there and take shit to sell, and satisfy your lien. I'd probably file the writ on one of the trucks, it seems to me that would be the easiest thing to identify. I think you can check with the SDAT database in your state, to see if their company has any real assets (like the building from which they operate or something). I'm not sure how exactly that works though.
Collecting on a judgement SUUUCKS, sounds like your experience may be as painful or more painful than mine. On the bright side, you earn 10% (at least in MD) per annum interest on a judgement, so the longer they delay, the more they owe. it's a pitiful silver lining (considering, they may never pay depending on how slick they are), but, glass half full right?
Hey @Dr. Frenchenstein that is really useful information, thank you.
Can you tell me more about how collecting "sucks"? It sounds (or at least I was hoping) that you just get the judgement, have an officer go over and they are forced to pay or else forfeit whatever possessions you want. Is it not that simple?
Also, do I need to be there in person? I can allocate a day/two for such a trip, if I really need to, but obviously I'd prefer not to if I can avoid it, since that's about a 7 hour drive each way for me.
No, it's not just "go over there with a cop and they pay up or you get to take shit" (I didn't mean that snarky, promise) it's more likely a scenario where you win a default judgement for X dollars, they refuse to pay and get an even slightly competent attorney to appeal or drag out the payment for (seriously) years, until you finally win a secondary judgement to garnish their wages, at which point they can at any time file bankruptcy on that company and use another.
Collecting from people is fucking hard. That's the bullet point to take away from this.
in theory it's "Sherriff/Constable goes over(or private service guy), serves guy with papers noting writ of execution, guy gets 30 days to pay up. guy doesn't pay, sheriff/constable comes, prevents access & takes his shit, sells it at auction, you get proceeds up to the amount of your judgement"
i imagine your company would use those 30 days to disappear whatever assets the company has or some shit. that's why you should file on a truck or something they definitely own, IANAL but i think that places a lien on that item and they can't do anything with it until that is satisfied (except go bankrupt).
I'll let you know how mine works out but currently it's "can't find guy to make him pay me, issue warrant for his arrest, guy is in other state somewhere, warrant is useless. Try to get writ of execution, can't find guy to serve papers, clerk shrugs shoulders, my head asplode." I'm assuming there is some sort of alternative service out there, but the clerks at the district court aren't being very forthcoming/Don't know.
Most likely though a judge is still going to go through the model of something more closely related to a garnishment of wages before they allow a wronged party to just show up with a couple of cops and start taking trucks from a company, and in the time it takes to get all of this stuff filed and sit through appeals or extensions, that company is going to file bankruptcy, or actually fight this.
No company is going to file bankruptcy over $3k, that's silly.
And I don't think they'll garnish wages; it's a business, not a guy behind on his child support.
They took money fraudulently, I think it's likely I will get a default payment (they're not going to bother to show), so I'll wait my 30 days then get a lien and hope to put this crap behind me.
Contractors do this pretty regularly, there's no easy way to track these guys. Once they fuck up, they shut down and start new.
In fact, there is! It was pretty popular in the mid-80s, though it's sort of fallen out of favor in recent years. I know a few people that have been made whole through this method. It worked out fairly well for most of them, though things did tend to get heated very often and the outcome always seemed to be up in the air until the eleventh hour. TBH I'm not sure I should even be telling you about it, so try to keep it on the down-low.
It's like Bowen said, it's easy for small business to do this, and they do it ALL THE TIME. I personally had something similar happen to me with an auto repair shop and never collected because they shut their doors and changed business. I know a bar in my college town that did this every time they got busted for selling to minors.
Also, you have to consider this, they dicked you out of three grand because they suck. How many others have they dicked over? Who else do they owe money to? They're not going to close up shop over three grand, but they'll sure as hell do it over 20 or 30 grand if that's what they owe in business loans and existing settlements and anything else they've got on their plate you're not aware of.
Again, I want you to win, hell I almost NEED you to win just to feel better about this thread and what's happened to you. I'm sympathetic to your cause since I've been in a similar situation. I'm just saying, you've (most likely) got a longer road than 30 to 60 days ahead of you, and you need to be prepared for that.
It depends on what you file for, if you demonstrate that this company is shady as hell, the judge may let you do some crazy shit to teach them a lesson. Do i think the judge would let you foreclose on a $300k warehouse to pay a $3k judgement? most likely no. a $30k truck? maybe. You could garnish revenues, but like everyone is saying, this place will likely just close up shop. it's probably less than $3k to reincorporate (or whatever). That's why getting the writ on something concrete of which you can prove ownership is a good bet. Bankruptcy is very much abused in this country. Not long ago, some guys dog attacked some kid, when his parents sued for medical expenses, he just declared bankruptcy and got off scott free (sorta...)
BTW it's definitely not as easy as: win case, go over with cop to sell their shit. There were a bunch of hoops to jump through in mine, but mine wasn't small claims. since you can't even have a lawyer in small claims, i think they forego the whole "oral exam" (where you ask the defendant where their assets are, and they tell you to go fuck yourself, it's very efficient) thing. You just have to research their assets, and file the proper paperwork, then hope for the best. with real estate, you don't even have to serve the person individually! The sherriff just posts it on the door!
I'm not saying that would be exactly Neville's experience, but it does work (theoretically, as i said).
I never realized that was a thing you could do. I should have, and probably would have figured it out if the situation required it, but it's never entered my mind.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Huzzah. Today is a good day for justice!