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[PATV] Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - Extra Credits Season 4, Ep. 21: The Hero’s Journey (Part

DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
edited July 2012 in The Penny Arcade Hub
image[PATV] Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - Extra Credits Season 4, Ep. 21: The Hero’s Journey (Part 2)

This week, we conclude our two-part series on the Hero's Journey as applied to games (like Journey).<br /> Check out Gab's artwork <a href=" http://www.gabrielarts.de/&quot; target="_blank">here</a>! Seriously, do it. She's pretty darned good.<br /> Come discuss this topic in the <a href="http://extra-credits.net/episodes/the-heros-journey-part-2/#discuss&quot; target="_blank">forums</a>!

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  • kailowkailow Registered User regular
    Would mike/gabe please draw an exrta credits episode

  • T.KT.K Registered User new member
    Huge props for using a picture of the Releshan book from Myst III. Too bad it really isn't what you're talking about right then, but still glad to see that reference

  • memodrixmemodrix Registered User new member
    apotheosis is doubly done if you have sniffed out everything, as it gives you the white robes to use on your next Journey through the world, along with the ability to automatically recharge your scarf.

    ....wow. that sounded a great deal more thought provoking and intelligent in my mind. Oh well.

  • ElphenElphen Registered User new member
    I had to pause this when they used a picture of VImes when talking about the Threshold Guardian and separating the world of adventure from our everyday world - they used Vimes! Yay! ^___^

  • darkfiretigerdarkfiretiger Registered User regular
    Well done, I remember reading about the hero's journey when I was reading someone disassembling the HP books and how the first few use this well and then it kinda falls off towards the last books.

  • DriscolDriscol __BANNED USERS regular
    Wow I have never seen it all laid out like this but it seems like the matrix follows all of them in an interesting way, especially the "transcending" or whatever the tenth one was. Seems like all of them were represented in that movie.

  • Ryha2000Ryha2000 Game Designer/Engineer Boston MARegistered User regular
    In my opinion steps 7 and 8 are both served by other players. In my play through I ran into both a helpful other player that guided me through challenges that I was finding difficult and a unhelpful one who was interested in exploring or subverting the flow of the levels.

  • Ryha2000Ryha2000 Game Designer/Engineer Boston MARegistered User regular
    If anyone is interested in the development of thought in the 50 odd years since The Hero with a Thousand Faces was written I highly recommend the book 'The Seven Basic Plots' http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Basic-Plots-Tell-Stories/dp/0826480373 This book takes it for granted that there a number of basic plots like the hero's journey and sets about asking WHY. It is a deep thoughtful dare I say erudite book.

  • catsoupcatsoup Registered User regular
    The bit about the stage of Supernatural Aid working best in games where it is part of the character's personal story, not just the more obvious heroic tale being told, reminded me particularly of a specifically good usage of this trope or theme in a game: The Destiny Plume, in "Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume", where not only does gaining this power separate the tutorial part of the game from the rest of the game, but it also not only sets the protagonist Wil on his heroic journey (as he most venture into the land to gain more souls for the Plume so that at the end of his year's journey it will be strong enough to slay the Valkyrie with and avenge his father) but is the beginning of the themes of Wil's personal story (what price would you go to for revenge). It also works so well in that game because the Supernatural Aid, the Destiny Plume which unlocks a warriors' hidden power at the price of their life at the end of the battle, is parallel or metaphorical to the game's main theme, which is the cost that war, even good war or glorious war, has on the people around it; the family of the slain and the victims of the chaos and economic turmoil war wreaks.

  • dough-planetdough-planet Registered User new member
    Gah! I'm only half way through watching Neon Genesis Evangelion; I had no idea Eva 01 was somehow made from Shinji's mum. I literally paused episode 13 to watch this! I know I'm arriving at the NGE party pretty late in the day but a spoiler warning would have been nice... :P


    Aaach just kidding. I know it would be impossible to do these videos without spoilers. I thought it was an amusingly irritating coincidence though and thus, worth sharing. Thanks guys!

  • WorcesterGeekWorcesterGeek Registered User new member
    I've always been fascinated by the Hero's Journey and for any one else interested you should check out the Star Wars: The Legacy Revealed. Does a great job of showing the Hero's Journey applied to Star Wars. It was originally on the History Channel.

  • PithcatPithcat Registered User new member
    The piece of music that plays during that last stage of Journey, flying around at the top of the mountain, is called Apotheosis. I didn't realize it's relevance to the Hero's Journey until watching this. I suppose it strengthens the connection.

  • MisterEnsuesMisterEnsues Registered User new member
    I loved the parabola drawn on at 7:00 when he says "parable."

  • Specter Von BarenSpecter Von Baren Registered User regular
    You say that the meeting with the Godess is skipped but I'd say it's actually one of the most fascinating part of the game, when you meet a companion. At a certain point a person becomes attached to their companion, whether when they first meet or later, and this symbolizes the understanding of love. Sooner or later you or your companion can get separated but if you both care about seeing the end of the journey with each other then you will try to look for one another or watch in horror as they get snapped up by a dragon, or wait with silent cheers for them to make it past the blowing wind to safety.

  • Jenny_SpaghettiJenny_Spaghetti I am 3 ginger midgets in a trench coat. Calgary, CanadalandRegistered User regular
    <3 Schmendrick the magician! It tickled me to see that worked in there. :)

  • Sonny_69Sonny_69 Registered User regular
    journey

  • Biff BeastmanBiff Beastman Registered User new member
    If I remember Journey's story correctly, there's a scene right before you ascend the mountain in which the figure in white shows how the history of the civilization transitions to the player's recent journey. It seems to me that this is the Meeting with the Goddess, even if it does come before the Road of Trials. This is the point at which the player realizes (or confirms) that they are a part of this civilization and that the fates of the player, the white figures, and the light on the mountain are intertwined. This is where I first started to see my character as belonging to the game's story and setting, instead of being a plumber who simply happened by a mushroom kingdom.

    I also think Woman as Temptress is covered as well. If we accept the premise that the game conveys these steps through play rather than narrative, then this step is handled quite well. Near the end of the march up the mountain, I was trudging forward in the snow, with nothing but the light to keep me oriented. As it became more difficult to move forward, I was reminded of my experience of being blown backward when I went off course near the start of the game. I slowly lost sight of any points of reference, and I could barely move at all. I was going to die, and video games have taught me to avoid that outcome. I seriously began to consider heading back the way I came, if only to regroup for another attempt. This is the temptation--to despair of reaching the goal at all, to consider abandoning that quest to preserve one's own life, to turn off the game without ever beating it. Obviously since it's a game, it didn't take long for me to realize that going back down the mountain would be as useless as dying in the snow, but I'm impressed that the game managed to tempt me for even a few seconds.

  • stongestonge Registered User new member
    If you have the soundtrack of Journey, some of the songs seemed to be titled with these Hero's Journey stages! Pretty cool.

  • AlexSpaceOrganAlexSpaceOrgan Registered User new member
    Wait - Releeshahn is a goal, not a supernatural aid!

  • polianpolian Registered User new member
    It seems to me that The Woman as Temptress in Journey could be interpreted as being the alcove with the lamp on the path up the mountain. Every time I pass it I have to stop and I always feel like staying there in the warmth is much preferred to trudging through the snow some more. The bridge outside of the alcove is also a perfect place to turn back if you were so inclined, as it takes you back to the start of the level.

  • Agent S7Agent S7 Registered User regular
    It's pretty amazing how well Persona 3 fits into this mold. I just rewatched the episode, trying to think of a good example, and P3 is nearly PERFECT.

    1.) Call to Adventure: Minato (the fan name for the protagonist) enters the Dark Hour for the first time while in a subway car, but has no idea what it is.

    2.) Refusal of the Call: He leads a normal life for the first few days, and doesn't seem particularly interested in the odd event on the subway. (The only one that, I think, stretches it a bit). Alternatively, if you want to look at it from a gameplay perspective, the player doesn't really get to do much until he gets to the next stage...but that's also kind of a stretch.

    3.) Supernatural Aid: When Minato awakens his Persona (his inner self that gives him superpowers) for the first time. Personas aren't just neat magical things--they have a serious effect on the story, thus fitting very well into the ACTUAL Hero's Journey structure.

    4.) The Threshold: When Minato enters the massive tower of Tartarus for the first time, he first encounters many gameplay mechanics and combat. There's even a massive stairway, and you have to open a door to first enter the place. Pretty obvious stuff.

    5.) Belly of the Whale (?) If it's present, it's probably the search for the missing high school girl, Fuuka. Here we begin to discover that people are going missing in Tartarus, and start glimpsing the true danger of the quest.

    6.) The Road of Trials. Minato and friends have to take down enormous Shadows every month, and they're told this will help them save the world.

    7 & 8.) Meeting with Goddess and Temptation. Both are present in a single character, interestingly enough. Yukari, one of Minato's teammates, is an obvious love interest for him...but there's also a scene where one of the massive Shadows nearly forces them to give into carnal desire, which would quite literally cause them to die as the Shadow fed on their souls.

    9.) Atonement with the Father: Eventually, our heroes discover that their actions have unleashed the Spirit of Death on the world, Nyx. (Long story). It just so happens that they get a new classmate then, whose name...escapes me for some reason. Anyway, the new guy becomes fast friends with our heroes, until he comes into his true memories: he is the Spirit of Death, come to kill them all...and he hates it. The fact that the main character has befriended Death itself, and they forgive one another for their upcoming roles, would apply.

    10.) Apotheosis. This couldn't be any more obvious--Nyx descends on the earth and starts killing almost everyone. But the main character is empowered by his links to his friends, and all of humanity. Minato ends up basically gaining enlightenment, flies up to Nyx and sacrifices his life energy to conquer death.

    11.) The Return: Minato returns to the ordinary world after that...to say goodbye to his friends. Finally, his physical body dies, and his soul continues to seal Nyx away so it can't destroy all life.

  • Bermuda CakeBermuda Cake Registered User new member
    What's interesting is that certain tracks in the journey OST are entitled 'Road of Trials', 'Apotheosis' and 'Rebirth'. It's pretty undeniable that they had this in mind when making the game.

  • mekman 2mekman 2 a goober Registered User regular
    We all go through the Hero's Journey. It's extremely reassuring for me personally to see that it's a formula for ones life. I totally borked the "Temptation part" in my personal experience, and I'm hoping for a second chance (somehow, it may not be the same), although I know it may (or will) be even more difficult the second time around. This show is a service, I appreciate your work.

  • Xander0311Xander0311 Registered User regular
    <3 to whoever added the "Secret of Kells" screenshots. Good movie!

  • NagisawaNagisawa Registered User new member
    Man, are these guys wrong... Journey is NOT the 'heroes journey'. It's the Journey of LIFE. You are born, you grow and when you lose your scarf, death. The Being in White is a God Figure, or the Angel of St. Peter...

    Your 'scarf' is your experience, your growth. But HEY these guys are 'in the industry' the 'know' the 'truth'. *Sigh*

  • SkagasmSkagasm Registered User new member
    @Nagisawa

    They're using the game as a means of explaining an archetypal story-telling strategy. They're not trying to say what the game is "ABOUT". They're not interpreting meaning or applying allegory. They're providing a lense through which to view/create stories.

    Furthermore, if you think that there is a single "right" answer for how to interpret art you're doing it wrong.

  • solidboxsolidbox Registered User new member
    I think meeting with the Goddess could possibly be an aspect of journey depending on circumstance. My belief is that the aspect lies on your relationship you develop with your partner through certain events in the game. For example, on my first play, I befriended a partner early on and we were inseparable. This should be most of everyone's experiences as well. We eventually made it to the underground segment and we were in the area where the dragons are first formally introduced. The dragon activated and my new found friend, who was way too curious for his own good, got snatched up by the dragon. My reaction was that of pain, more than I thought was possible with a person i have never really met in my life. But nonetheless, there I was, grieving that I had lost my friend. Of course it turns out that he lived and I was overjoyed. What this made me realize was that I truly cared for this person. even if we may never play again or even get to talk, in that given instance, I cared. I feel that thatgamecompany decided to make it up to the players to create this aspect of the heroes journey, they just provided the right setting and mood to allow it to develop and the rest was up to us.

  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    C'mon Daniel. Eyes up! You can't just look at your notes the whole time. Engage the audience!
    ;)

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  • ReaverKingReaverKing Registered User regular
    edited July 2012
    I gave this episode some thought and I just realized that even "Moneyball" - a baseball movie about sports statistics and managing teams rather than the actual playing of the sport - follows the Hero's Journey despite being based on an actual baseball season and real, living people as well as having no physical confrontations whatsoever. (SPOILERS!) Oakland A's manager BIlly Beane loses three of his best players to teams with bigger budgets and decides that his team needs to radically shift its direction to compete with the bigger market teams. Then, on a visit to Cleveland, Billy discoveres a young statistician who is developing a model for evaluating players based on their actual performance on the field rather than the same "intangable" criteria scouts have been using for over a century. The pair then fight back against an initial losing streak, resistance from the organization at home - and baseball as a whole - to dramatically improve the team's performance dollar for dollar by hiring "undervalued" players, and set baseball history when their team wins the all-time record of 20 consecutive wins. Then, when all is said and done, Billy rejects an incredibile offer that would have made him very, very wealthy to pursue his true goals as a manager and father in Oakland. That IS the heroe's journey. And a REAL man LIVED IT in 2002.

    ReaverKing on
  • Sonny_69Sonny_69 Registered User regular
    journey

  • Zachary AmaranthZachary Amaranth Registered User regular
    The best part of this is simply that people will pick up Campbell's work.

  • saberkiwisaberkiwi OrlandoRegistered User new member
    Holy moly, you really did just reference Gawain and the Green Knight. That college class on early Arthurian Literature paid off for me, after all. Huzzah!

  • thegreenelokinthegreenelokin Registered User new member
    I created an account just to ask if the wizard in blue was Schmendrick the magician? i think it is!

  • Cthulhu CalamariCthulhu Calamari Toronto, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Does anyone know what the two screenshots at the 5:00 mark are from?

  • wordsonplaywordsonplay Registered User new member
    Heh, this seems pretty typical of the use of Hero's Journey outside of anthropology. "This story exactly fits the Hero's Journey, except for this bit and that bit and all those weird bits in the middle... but hey, there's a beginning a middle and and end, so it must be the Hero's journey!"

  • panpenumbrapanpenumbra Registered User new member
    @ wordsonplay Actually, Campbell would have been the first to admit that the Hero's Journey is not a rigorous absolute of cultural storytelling models; rather, it's an archetypal amalgamation of many cultural commonalities that appear in various forms of storytelling (mythology being his definitive subject). That being said, you can think of it as a sort of "check list" of elements, and the threshold at which a narrative becomes a model of the Hero's Journey is, in some sense, a subjective analysis (for example: "if it's 6/10 or more, it's the Hero's Journey!").

  • shadowjoe94shadowjoe94 Registered User new member
    This really helped me iv been writing this book for the past year or well wanted to but I could never get my thoughts straight and as I started to organise them using the heros journey to put the events in order I realised the main charcters love interest would make a better main character due to the backstory and history I gave them or maybe ill make both equel main character each having there own decent and trials but the definitly helped and I thank you guys for helping me get started

  • kiminoakiminoa Registered User new member
    I keep thinking of Snowcrash by Neal Stephenson. Journey hacked us!

  • NamesplosionNamesplosion Registered User new member
    If you look at the steps of the heroes journey, it becomes apparent that the Legend of Zelda franchise does an amazing job of following the heroes journey. If you take a look at just the first game you can see that it follows nearly every step, starting with the cave with the old man, talking to the old man constitutes the Call to adventure and then the refusal of the call is brought after the supernatural aid (AKA the wooden sword that shoots laser beams), the refusal to the call is brought as the compulsion to explore the world rather than finding the way to advance through the adventure, and the metaphorical invisible wall pulling you back is the fact that so much of the world is unexplorable without certain key items or prior knowledge of how to advance. The Supernatural Aid (as spoken of earlier) exists not only as the wood sword but as everything you obtain throughout the experience from heart containers to the flippers, but it could also be argued that the supernatural aid was the beings that give you the items (AKA the dungeons, the boss monsters, the old man, the old woman, and Zelda), but we should move on. The crossing of the threshold is the point at which you begin fighting monsters (or arguably the first dungeon). The Belly of The Whale is the point at which you begin to feel like the world is empty and the visuals make the world seem deserted, this also continues ever so slightly throughout the rest of the game. The road of trials arguably either at the first dungeon or the path to the second dungeon. The Meeting With The Goddess is represented by the meeting with Zelda (or something else, I'm not sure about this one). The Woman as Temptress is the point at which it becomes extremely tempting to give up and stop looking for the next dungeon or whatever it is you are trying to do. Meeting with the father is represented as getting that last item you need to become strong enough to defeat Ganon and save Zelda. Apotheosis is the point at which you become strong enough to enter Ganon's Lair and Defeat him. The Return is simply the point at which the Triforce is obtained and Zelda is saved.

  • NamesplosionNamesplosion Registered User new member
    If you look at the steps of the heroes journey, it becomes apparent that the Legend of Zelda franchise does an amazing job of following the heroes journey. If you take a look at just the first game you can see that it follows nearly every step, starting with the cave with the old man, talking to the old man constitutes the Call to adventure and then the refusal of the call is brought after the supernatural aid (AKA the wooden sword that shoots laser beams), the refusal to the call is brought as the compulsion to explore the world rather than finding the way to advance through the adventure, and the metaphorical invisible wall pulling you back is the fact that so much of the world is unexplorable without certain key items or prior knowledge of how to advance. The Supernatural Aid (as spoken of earlier) exists not only as the wood sword but as everything you obtain throughout the experience from heart containers to the flippers, but it could also be argued that the supernatural aid was the beings that give you the items (AKA the dungeons, the boss monsters, the old man, the old woman, and Zelda), but we should move on. The crossing of the threshold is the point at which you begin fighting monsters (or arguably the first dungeon). The Belly of The Whale is the point at which you begin to feel like the world is empty and the visuals make the world seem deserted, this also continues ever so slightly throughout the rest of the game. The road of trials arguably either at the first dungeon or the path to the second dungeon. The Meeting With The Goddess is represented by the meeting with Zelda (or something else, I'm not sure about this one). The Woman as Temptress is the point at which it becomes extremely tempting to give up and stop looking for the next dungeon or whatever it is you are trying to do. Meeting with the father is represented as getting that last item you need to become strong enough to defeat Ganon and save Zelda. Apotheosis is the point at which you become strong enough to enter Ganon's Lair and Defeat him. The Return is simply the point at which the Triforce is obtained and Zelda is saved.

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