If your child consumes 37 metal objects selected at random, then I'm fairly sure you'd be very glad they chose buckyball magnets! While they are indeed magnetic, they are blunt, non-toxic and stable in the gut. Much better to eat them that say, 37 sewing needles, or 37 pushpins.
Nope.
Quality rebuttal. I would think 37 sewing needles (which would migrate throughout your body btw) would actually be more harmful. Hell you could see in the Xray that the magnets were all in one bracelet formation. And the issue she was having was intestinal blockage, not perforation. This after the magnet had been in her gut for over a week. If you want to read something fascinating you should look up foxtail migration in the body. As disturbing as it is it's fascinating how the body can move objects through itself.
I've seen cases of people who swallowed like 20+ knifes and forks and such. Magnets still be more dangerous yo. (Don't let what sounds logical at first colour your view, your digestive tract is weird.)
If your child consumes 37 metal objects selected at random, then I'm fairly sure you'd be very glad they chose buckyball magnets! While they are indeed magnetic, they are blunt, non-toxic and stable in the gut. Much better to eat them that say, 37 sewing needles, or 37 pushpins.
Nope.
Quality rebuttal. I would think 37 sewing needles (which would migrate throughout your body btw) would actually be more harmful. Hell you could see in the Xray that the magnets were all in one bracelet formation. And the issue she was having was intestinal blockage, not perforation. This after the magnet had been in her gut for over a week. If you want to read something fascinating you should look up foxtail migration in the body. As disturbing as it is it's fascinating how the body can move objects through itself.
I've seen cases of people who swallowed like 20+ knifes and forks and such. Magnets still be more dangerous yo. (Don't let what sounds logical at first colour your view, your digestive tract is weird.)
Correct. In case anyone was confused: the reason magnets are dangerous is because they can move along your intestine, then if they're in separate parts of the intestine but close enough to attract through the walls, SNAP! You now have two parts of intestines stuck together, which can cause blockages, twists, infections, etc.
Of course, I'm still not in favor of bannination. I mean, even without the whole "toys" aspect, any parent should know better than to leave things small enough to swallow around young children. This is part of "baby proofing". The only magnets that should be on your fridge are those awesome ABC ones that are way too big to swallow, and can be used by your drunken friends to spell curse words.
Damn shame you have to put your magnetic poetry up at the top of the fridge. Damn shame.
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
If your child consumes 37 metal objects selected at random, then I'm fairly sure you'd be very glad they chose buckyball magnets! While they are indeed magnetic, they are blunt, non-toxic and stable in the gut. Much better to eat them that say, 37 sewing needles, or 37 pushpins.
Nope.
Quality rebuttal. I would think 37 sewing needles (which would migrate throughout your body btw) would actually be more harmful. Hell you could see in the Xray that the magnets were all in one bracelet formation. And the issue she was having was intestinal blockage, not perforation. This after the magnet had been in her gut for over a week. If you want to read something fascinating you should look up foxtail migration in the body. As disturbing as it is it's fascinating how the body can move objects through itself.
I've seen cases of people who swallowed like 20+ knifes and forks and such. Magnets still be more dangerous yo. (Don't let what sounds logical at first colour your view, your digestive tract is weird.)
Correct. In case anyone was confused: the reason magnets are dangerous is because they can move along your intestine, then if they're in separate parts of the intestine but close enough to attract through the walls, SNAP! You now have two parts of intestines stuck together, which can cause blockages, twists, infections, etc.
Of course, I'm still not in favor of bannination. I mean, even without the whole "toys" aspect, any parent should know better than to leave things small enough to swallow around young children. This is part of "baby proofing". The only magnets that should be on your fridge are those awesome ABC ones that are way too big to swallow, and can be used by your drunken friends to spell curse words.
Damn shame you have to put your magnetic poetry up at the top of the fridge. Damn shame.
yeah getting rid of fridge magnets should definitely be part of any baby-proofing. I've spent my entire childhood knowing only wooden fridge-doors, so I never though about this, but man you gotta get rid of of even such seemingly innocuous things.
And I am not really convinced on a ban either. But consider Jef's post about how easily you might think they're safe, and then consider his post about how even the most awesome parent can slip up and fucking thank the lord for it not ending in tragedy (and how many awesome parents will end up with a tragedy). I like my novelty shit as much as the next geek, but I also believe that we shouldn't let our personal enjoyment overcome what is good for society. A lot of reactions here seem to put so much blame on "stupid parents" or "stupid kids" like we're dealing with some survival of the fittest shit. I don't care if it's only stupid people that this happens to, it wouldn't make it ok somehow.
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
If your child consumes 37 metal objects selected at random, then I'm fairly sure you'd be very glad they chose buckyball magnets! While they are indeed magnetic, they are blunt, non-toxic and stable in the gut. Much better to eat them that say, 37 sewing needles, or 37 pushpins.
Nope.
Quality rebuttal. I would think 37 sewing needles (which would migrate throughout your body btw) would actually be more harmful. Hell you could see in the Xray that the magnets were all in one bracelet formation. And the issue she was having was intestinal blockage, not perforation. This after the magnet had been in her gut for over a week. If you want to read something fascinating you should look up foxtail migration in the body. As disturbing as it is it's fascinating how the body can move objects through itself.
I've seen cases of people who swallowed like 20+ knifes and forks and such. Magnets still be more dangerous yo. (Don't let what sounds logical at first colour your view, your digestive tract is weird.)
Correct. In case anyone was confused: the reason magnets are dangerous is because they can move along your intestine, then if they're in separate parts of the intestine but close enough to attract through the walls, SNAP! You now have two parts of intestines stuck together, which can cause blockages, twists, infections, etc.
Of course, I'm still not in favor of bannination. I mean, even without the whole "toys" aspect, any parent should know better than to leave things small enough to swallow around young children. This is part of "baby proofing". The only magnets that should be on your fridge are those awesome ABC ones that are way too big to swallow, and can be used by your drunken friends to spell curse words.
Damn shame you have to put your magnetic poetry up at the top of the fridge. Damn shame.
yeah getting rid of fridge magnets should definitely be part of any baby-proofing. I've spent my entire childhood knowing only wooden fridge-doors, so I never though about this, but man you gotta get rid of of even such seemingly innocuous things.
And I am not really convinced on a ban either. But consider Jef's post about how easily you might think they're safe, and then consider his post about how even the most awesome parent can slip up and fucking thank the lord for it not ending in tragedy (and how many awesome parents will end up with a tragedy). I like my novelty shit as much as the next geek, but I also believe that we shouldn't let our personal enjoyment overcome what is good for society. A lot of reactions here seem to put so much blame on "stupid parents" or "stupid kids" like we're dealing with some survival of the fittest shit. I don't care if it's only stupid people that this happens to, it wouldn't make it ok somehow.
I don't think it's just "stupid parents ruining fun", it's the fact that so many, many things fall into this category, and the magnets aren't even near the top of the list.
Will stopping 100,000 people from buying something save 1 kid/year? Maybe, or maybe instead of getting distracted by the magnets before they find the steak knife, they just move on to the steak knife.
I don't see what makes the magnets more dangerous than any of the decorations or other toys I have around my house.
Edit: For context, I have a replica Anduril mounted at the end of my corridor. If a kid tugs at it, it's going to come off, and probably make a hole in him/her, and probably ruin my wall.
All told I have around 13 swords of various shapes, sizes and sharpness strewn around. (yes I have a problem )
I'm totally cool with not selling Buckyballs in a toy store. That's legislation I can get behind; much like we don't allow Joe Camel to sell cigarettes anymore.
I'd also be down with legislation that allows the state to bring a civil suit against parents who negligently allow their children to eat fucking magnets. Put it under "child endangerment", and all monetary awards are paid into the education budget or something.
I honestly don't understand this attitude.
Pros of banning them: Fewer kids require major surgery, fewer kids require medically expensive procedures, fewer kids risk death, fewer medical resources are unnecessarily wasted, etc.
Cons of banning them: There's one fewer desktoy available, companies based on this product are financially hurt.
Pros of "allow the state to bring civil suits against parents": .... We get to make parents whose children are now likely have a serious medical condition feel bad? Lose more money? And a desktoy and its distributing company are not hampered
Cons: No major reduction in health incidents, higher court costs/congestion, more kids put in foster care?
Like what in that makes that better?
The whole argument boils down to : Is it better to have this product available for purchase or not?
Its some fucking magnets that you can arrange into shapes not a fucking cure for cancer, or the basis for an industry that employs millions or some great artistic work.
I like how it's been like 10 or so pages and you still haven't answered my question.
Why haven't we banned swimming pools?
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I'm totally cool with not selling Buckyballs in a toy store. That's legislation I can get behind; much like we don't allow Joe Camel to sell cigarettes anymore.
I'd also be down with legislation that allows the state to bring a civil suit against parents who negligently allow their children to eat fucking magnets. Put it under "child endangerment", and all monetary awards are paid into the education budget or something.
I honestly don't understand this attitude.
Pros of banning them: Fewer kids require major surgery, fewer kids require medically expensive procedures, fewer kids risk death, fewer medical resources are unnecessarily wasted, etc.
Cons of banning them: There's one fewer desktoy available, companies based on this product are financially hurt.
Pros of "allow the state to bring civil suits against parents": .... We get to make parents whose children are now likely have a serious medical condition feel bad? Lose more money? And a desktoy and its distributing company are not hampered
Cons: No major reduction in health incidents, higher court costs/congestion, more kids put in foster care?
Like what in that makes that better?
The whole argument boils down to : Is it better to have this product available for purchase or not?
Its some fucking magnets that you can arrange into shapes not a fucking cure for cancer, or the basis for an industry that employs millions or some great artistic work.
I like how it's been like 10 or so pages and you still haven't answered my question.
Why haven't we banned swimming pools?
Because the pros are greater then the cons obviously.
It shouldn't be hard to figure this out from his arguments formulation.
The whole argument boils down to : Is it better to have this product available for purchase or not?
No, see, this is not actually the argument at all.
The argument is: "What is an acceptable number of deaths resulting from any given diversion, and what are reasonable precautions to take for such diversions, and who is responsible for which precautions?"
You keep trying to make this about one specific company selling one specific product without any consideration for the precedents that might set. The world consists of more than just small children and Buckyballs.
I can't see the pros side, I mean he specifically forgot to mention some of the pros I mentioned a while ago, 3d puzzles increasing dexterity and increasing brain activity, and being especially helpful to alzheimer's patients (the kinds of puzzles that are actually impossible to do with other products and magnets -- you can make something similar but they're not as good... plus builds hand strength).
What is the pro side to swimming pools? Staying cool and exercise? Fuck man inside and do some push ups in the ACed house. Then no kids will die unless someone forgot to pick up their buckyballs or turn them over after the ban (lolright), and some little shit swallows them while doing some military push ups.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I can't see the pros side, I mean he specifically forgot to mention some of the pros I mentioned a while ago, 3d puzzles increasing dexterity and increasing brain activity, and being especially helpful to alzheimer's patients (the kinds of puzzles that are actually impossible to do with other products and magnets -- you can make something similar but they're not as good... plus builds hand strength).
What is the pro side to swimming pools? Staying cool and exercise? Fuck man inside and do some push ups in the ACed house. Then no kids will die unless someone forgot to pick up their buckyballs or turn them over after the ban (lolright), and some little shit swallows them while doing some military push ups.
Swimming pools are far better exercise then what you suggest for many many people. (the elderly in particular) They are also part of our society, training for swimming in non-pool environments, gathering places for a wide variety of atheletic activities (many of which shouldn't be hard to think of with the goddamn Olympics going on) and so on. There's also transition costs, both economic and social to consider in getting rid of swimming pools.
Buckyballs or the like, on the other hand, are a fucking desktoy of limited applications used by a comparatively minute number of people.
The amount of rabid defence of their right to exist in this thread is in vast disproportion to their value to even the people who own the damn things, who I bet aren't even most of the people posting in this thread.
Man, there aren't any pros of owning a swimming pool that can remotely justify a kid's death.
Like they're just giant hard to clean puddles.
Edit: I'd say if a product with a specific choking/safety hazard warning on it was taken off the market due to a child choking on it, it would suggest that products with safety warnings have zero ass coverage. So Lego has gotta go too, you know?
I can't see the pros side, I mean he specifically forgot to mention some of the pros I mentioned a while ago, 3d puzzles increasing dexterity and increasing brain activity, and being especially helpful to alzheimer's patients (the kinds of puzzles that are actually impossible to do with other products and magnets -- you can make something similar but they're not as good... plus builds hand strength).
What is the pro side to swimming pools? Staying cool and exercise? Fuck man inside and do some push ups in the ACed house. Then no kids will die unless someone forgot to pick up their buckyballs or turn them over after the ban (lolright), and some little shit swallows them while doing some military push ups.
Swimming pools are far better exercise then what you suggest for many many people. (the elderly in particular) They are also part of our society, training for swimming in non-pool environments, gathering places for a wide variety of atheletic activities (many of which shouldn't be hard to think of with the goddamn Olympics going on) and so on. There's also transition costs, both economic and social to consider in getting rid of swimming pools.
Hey kind of like how I suggested that toy could be used to increase dexterity of the mind and body for older patients! Well, even so, we could put pools in public areas so it's only under lifeguard supervision! We don't need personal pools!
Buckyballs or the like, on the other hand, are a fucking desktoy of limited applications used by a comparatively minute number of people.
The amount of rabid defence of their right to exist in this thread is in vast disproportion to their value to even the people who own the damn things, who I bet aren't even most of the people posting in this thread.
The statistics suggest otherwise. Plus, legos and darts kill more kids a year than buckyballs have their entire existence.
A total of 0, aside from PantsB's third hand information from his wife how they admit 20 something a month (or whatever it was, it was pretty outlandish in general) and how they are internally devastated by them.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I can't see the pros side, I mean he specifically forgot to mention some of the pros I mentioned a while ago, 3d puzzles increasing dexterity and increasing brain activity, and being especially helpful to alzheimer's patients (the kinds of puzzles that are actually impossible to do with other products and magnets -- you can make something similar but they're not as good... plus builds hand strength).
What is the pro side to swimming pools? Staying cool and exercise? Fuck man inside and do some push ups in the ACed house. Then no kids will die unless someone forgot to pick up their buckyballs or turn them over after the ban (lolright), and some little shit swallows them while doing some military push ups.
Swimming pools are far better exercise then what you suggest for many many people. (the elderly in particular) They are also part of our society, training for swimming in non-pool environments, gathering places for a wide variety of atheletic activities (many of which shouldn't be hard to think of with the goddamn Olympics going on) and so on. There's also transition costs, both economic and social to consider in getting rid of swimming pools.
Hey kind of like how I suggested that toy could be used to increase dexterity of the mind and body for older patients! Well, even so, we could put pools in public areas so it's only under lifeguard supervision! We don't need personal pools!
Right, except your idea is nothing but supposition based on ... well, pretty much nothing except trying to pull some reason buckyballs are "good for people" out of your ass.
And fyi, personal pools are already heavily regulated. At least where I'm from.
So if you really wanna use this analogy, you seem to be arguing for heavy regulation of buckyballs which I'm pretty sure PantsB has already said he'd be in favour of.
Buckyballs or the like, on the other hand, are a fucking desktoy of limited applications used by a comparatively minute number of people.
The amount of rabid defence of their right to exist in this thread is in vast disproportion to their value to even the people who own the damn things, who I bet aren't even most of the people posting in this thread.
The statistics suggest otherwise. Plus, legos and darts kill more kids a year than buckyballs have their entire existence.
A total of 0, aside from PantsB's third hand information from his wife how they admit 20 something a month (or whatever it was, it was pretty outlandish in general) and how they are internally devastated by them.
Really, what's the evidence for the vast and varied applications and uses of buckyballs? What "statistics" are these?
I can't see the pros side, I mean he specifically forgot to mention some of the pros I mentioned a while ago, 3d puzzles increasing dexterity and increasing brain activity, and being especially helpful to alzheimer's patients (the kinds of puzzles that are actually impossible to do with other products and magnets -- you can make something similar but they're not as good... plus builds hand strength).
What is the pro side to swimming pools? Staying cool and exercise? Fuck man inside and do some push ups in the ACed house. Then no kids will die unless someone forgot to pick up their buckyballs or turn them over after the ban (lolright), and some little shit swallows them while doing some military push ups.
Swimming pools are far better exercise then what you suggest for many many people. (the elderly in particular) They are also part of our society, training for swimming in non-pool environments, gathering places for a wide variety of atheletic activities (many of which shouldn't be hard to think of with the goddamn Olympics going on) and so on. There's also transition costs, both economic and social to consider in getting rid of swimming pools.
Hey kind of like how I suggested that toy could be used to increase dexterity of the mind and body for older patients! Well, even so, we could put pools in public areas so it's only under lifeguard supervision! We don't need personal pools!
Right, except your idea is nothing but supposition based on ... well, pretty much nothing except trying to pull some reason buckyballs are "good for people" out of your ass.
And fyi, personal pools are already heavily regulated. At least where I'm from.
So if you really wanna use this analogy, you seem to be arguing for heavy regulation of buckyballs which I'm pretty sure PantsB has already said he'd be in favour of.
I'm not, but his position falls flat on its face because all these regulations don't do jack shit to stop it.
And sure they have regulations, but still, more people die to it than buckyballs. Why, again, are we not banning pools, and/or darts? (I believe I linked some statistics back a dozen or so pages ago on darts IIRC).
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Buckyballs or the like, on the other hand, are a fucking desktoy of limited applications used by a comparatively minute number of people.
The amount of rabid defence of their right to exist in this thread is in vast disproportion to their value to even the people who own the damn things, who I bet aren't even most of the people posting in this thread.
I'm not sure why the utility / usefulness / number of applications of a product should be a factor here. How do you measure it? Who has the final word on whether a product is "useful" or not? Kids get hold of videogames above their age rating all the time which is, according to some, harmful to them. And videogames with violent or sexual content aren't useful in any measurable way; they're just giant wastes of time as far as any non-gamer is concerned. Ban them! Ingestion of nail polish remover is one of the leading causes of severe pediatric poisoning. Is nail polish so vital to our society that it justifies risking children's lives? Ban it! Alcohol is a major cause of both pediatric and adult death. How is it useful? Ban it! Kids that are allergic to nuts might die from eating one nut. What does society gain from an unhealthy, child-killing snack like nuts? Ban them! Dogs have been known to attack children. How is a pet dog useful? Ban them! Surely someone's "fun" can't be worth the lives of our chilllldrrennnnn!
Or do you just mean that Buckyballs aren't popular enough? They have failed to capture the interest of more than X% of the population, and therefore they are under a different standard of scrutiny? This company sells a hypothetically dangerous product, but has failed to sell enough of them; let's drive them out of business? Wouldn't it make more sense to ban products that are popular and kill more children?
There is literally no reason to have a personal pool considering the dangers they pose and how may children die yearly. A community pool would be fine with licensed and cpr trained employees, but a personal pool literally has no benefit that outweighs the risk it poses considering the statistics on child casualties annually.
That's if you believe the things should be banned based on their proneness to accidents.
Luckily that's not how we view things, and rightfully so. That's why swimming pools are not banned, and why Buckyballs should not be banned. The only reason there is a call to ban them is because of the mental imagery of the potential risks involved and a fearmongering campaign. The company has taken every precaution with their product, the consumer blatantly ignores those precautions, and accidents occur. This is not the fault of the company, it IS the fault of the parent who bought them for their child or left them in reach of a toddler, but even that being the case it's still just an accident, one of millions that happen around the world. No child has died from this product, there are 12 reported incidents of ingestion of this product specifically, and even fewer of those required any sort of medical intervention. That's not this week, this month, or this year. That's over the past THREE years. Considering there have been over 2 MILLION of these units sold I think it's pretty absurd to ban a product with an incident rate that low.
You can rail on about risk vs reward all you like, how the life of a child is more important than the entertainment provided by a desk toy, but in actuality we're talking about out of 2,000,000 units, 0.0006% of the consumers have reported ingestion, and even fewer than that required medical aid. I think the life of a child is more important than entertainment. But with the numbers provided in the CPSC report the life of a child is not at an appropriate risk to ban the product.
Every single incident has been neglect of the parent or stupidity of the child (brought about by the lack of the parent to educate the child after giving them a toy specifically marked to not be appropriate for their age, Pseudo-piercings? REALLY?)
I just simply don't believe we should ban something because consumers can't be arsed to read or comprehend a damned label that basically says KEEP AWAY FROM CHILDREN MAY CAUSE BODILY HARM OR DEATH. Instead of banning everything that could possibly hurt anything we should make a concerted effort to educate the populous about not being stupid. Not leaving small rare earth magnets lying around in reach of children (Much like you wouldn't leave needles, rat poison, plastic bags, etc around them), not giving rare earth magnets to children who are under the age recommended. (You'll note there are no reported incidents of this happening to children over the recommended age), or if you REALLY feel the need to give your underaged child a tiny rare earth magnet and leave them unsupervised at the VERY least you should sit them down and educate them on the dangers involved. If they are not old enough to comprehend a talk of that nature, then it is your responsibility to not buy the product in the first place or keep it locked away like any other potential risk.
Instead of doing any of that though, we've decided it's much easier to just ban the product because people can't be trusted to act intelligently, despite the fact that a very small percentage of the consumers are actually even affected in the first place.
I mentioned this a while back but noone really replied to it, what if by some miracle it wasn't children being affected, but pets? Would the same outrage be there? What if it killed 50 pets every year? Do you think there would still be a call for a ban? Or do you think that the pet owners would assume responsibility for what happened because the packaging says to keep away from household pets?
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The life of someone's elses child is not worth more than my entertainment.
Mostly because you're the fuckup who left it in their reach and ignored the warnings, not me. If it were my child, maybe, and I'd probably lock mine up or just not buy them.
Difficult concepts to grasp, I'll admit. /s
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
The life of someone's elses child is not worth more than my entertainment.
Mostly because you're the fuckup who left it in their reach and ignored the warnings, not me. If it were my child, maybe, and I'd probably lock mine up or just not buy them.
Difficult concepts to grasp, I'll admit. /s
I'm not so callous as to have this particular viewpoint, but that notwithstanding I still don't think the risks are great enough to warrant any sort of action outside of product labeling and maybe a Public Service Announcement educating people on magnet use.
Wouldn't really be a bad idea in general considering how integrated magnets are in our everyday lives.
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I have no problem being callous about it. I mean if it came down to banning spaghetti because some shitspawn choked on some spaghetti-o's then fuck yes, they are not worth anything to me. People's property and family, intrinsically, do not hold any value to me.
The more I know them the more value they have, but realistically, if a meteor killed a house full of people I didn't know, I'd care for about 1 minute. If they were evil geniuses that built some sort of meteor attractor and left it on out of idiocy, I'd care for about 0 minutes.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I'm not sure why the utility / usefulness / number of applications of a product should be a factor here. How do you measure it? Who has the final word on whether a product is "useful" or not? Kids get hold of videogames above their age rating all the time which is, according to some, harmful to them. And videogames with violent or sexual content aren't useful in any measurable way; they're just giant wastes of time as far as any non-gamer is concerned. Ban them!Ingestion of nail polish remover is one of the leading causes of severe pediatric poisoning. Is nail polish so vital to our society that it justifies risking children's lives? Ban it! Alcohol is a major cause of both pediatric and adult death. How is it useful? Ban it! Kids that are allergic to nuts might die from eating one nut. What does society gain from an unhealthy, child-killing snack like nuts? Ban them! Dogs have been known to attack children. How is a pet dog useful? Ban them! Surely someone's "fun" can't be worth the lives of our chilllldrrennnnn!
Or do you just mean that Buckyballs aren't popular enough? They have failed to capture the interest of more than X% of the population, and therefore they are under a different standard of scrutiny? This company sells a hypothetically dangerous product, but has failed to sell enough of them; let's drive them out of business? Wouldn't it make more sense to ban products that are popular and kill more children?
I feel like this is an apt analogy, if not a perfect one.
The whole argument boils down to : Is it better to have this product available for purchase or not?
No, see, this is not actually the argument at all.
The argument is: "What is an acceptable number of deaths resulting from any given diversion, and who is responsible for which precautions as concerns such diversions?"
You keep trying to make this about one specific company selling one specific product without any consideration for the precedents that might set. The world consists of more than just small children and Buckyballs.
The whole argument boils down to : Is it better to have this product available for purchase or not?
No, see, this is not actually the argument at all.
The argument is: "What is an acceptable number of deaths resulting from any given diversion, and what are reasonable precautions to take for such diversions, and who is responsible for which precautions?"
You keep trying to make this about one specific company selling one specific product without any consideration for the precedents that might set. The world consists of more than just small children and Buckyballs.
What precedents are a matter of concern here?
Off the top of my head:
- If Buckyballs are an unnecessary frivolity resulting in X deaths per year, then presumably we should ban any similarly unnecessary frivolity that results in more than X deaths per year. What might this list include?
- If we are banning something that is exhaustively labeled as not-child-safe because it is not child-safe, what does that mean for how we use warning labels as a means of deterrent?
If we wish to maintain a consistent and coherent application of safety regulations - and I'm assuming that we do - then we really can't just ban things on a whim without considering how those standards will be applied in the future.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
I'm not sure why the utility / usefulness / number of applications of a product should be a factor here. How do you measure it? Who has the final word on whether a product is "useful" or not? Kids get hold of videogames above their age rating all the time which is, according to some, harmful to them. And videogames with violent or sexual content aren't useful in any measurable way; they're just giant wastes of time as far as any non-gamer is concerned. Ban them! Ingestion of nail polish remover is one of the leading causes of severe pediatric poisoning. Is nail polish so vital to our society that it justifies risking children's lives? Ban it! Alcohol is a major cause of both pediatric and adult death. How is it useful? Ban it! Kids that are allergic to nuts might die from eating one nut. What does society gain from an unhealthy, child-killing snack like nuts? Ban them! Dogs have been known to attack children. How is a pet dog useful? Ban them! Surely someone's "fun" can't be worth the lives of our chilllldrrennnnn!
I agree with the thrust of your argument, but a lot of your analogies up there fail because of what would happen if we did ban those things. We've tried banning alcohol - we got a huge black market, violent crime, and people still drank the stuff anyway, making probably 40% of the nation into criminals. I don't know what banning nuts would actually look like, but you probably end up with eliminating all related regulation, and suddenly people with allergies can't really be sure that folks aren't sneaking peanuts into their M&Ms.
Banning Buckyballs would have pretty much no direct fallout. Nobody's going to make black market Buckyballs. Banning them would just mean they aren't there anymore.
As I said before, I think banning Buckyballs is dumb, but if you are going to enact a reactionary and ill-informed ban on some diversionary product, this is a comparatively harmless target.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
People would likely still use buckyballs just not with that brand name. There are plenty of products around your house that benefit from them. Like... fridge magnets (like the cause of a few of those "buckyball" incidents).
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
I have no problem being callous about it. I mean if it came down to banning spaghetti because some shitspawn choked on some spaghetti-o's then fuck yes, they are not worth anything to me. People's property and family, intrinsically, do not hold any value to me.
The more I know them the more value they have, but realistically, if a meteor killed a house full of people I didn't know, I'd care for about 1 minute. If they were evil geniuses that built some sort of meteor attractor and left it on out of idiocy, I'd care for about 0 minutes.
People would likely still use buckyballs just not with that brand name. There are plenty of products around your house that benefit from them. Like... fridge magnets (like the cause of a few of those "buckyball" incidents).
Lets be even more accurate, we're not talking about banning nail polish remover; we're talking about banning a single brand of nail polish remover, and leaving all other acetone based products alone.
iirc, a few years back, maybe 10 or so, there was in fact a magnetic product that was specifically marketed as a pseudo-piercing, so it isn't really that outlandish an idea for someone to have.
iirc, a few years back, maybe 10 or so, there was in fact a magnetic product that was specifically marketed as a pseudo-piercing, so it isn't really that outlandish an idea for someone to have.
Is that product still around, or did it get banned?
iirc, a few years back, maybe 10 or so, there was in fact a magnetic product that was specifically marketed as a pseudo-piercing, so it isn't really that outlandish an idea for someone to have.
Is that product still around, or did it get banned?
iirc, a few years back, maybe 10 or so, there was in fact a magnetic product that was specifically marketed as a pseudo-piercing, so it isn't really that outlandish an idea for someone to have.
Oh I don't think the idea is outlandish, in fact it seems a very natural extension to go from a piercing, to one that has all the appearances but with none of the holes in your face. I just found the fact that it seems to be one of the major causes incredibly stupid. I thought it was more small children finding them on the desk, or toddlers picking them up off the ground, but no it's small children attaching them to their faces after being given them by their parents. It's an order of magnitude more absurd than I had initially thought an dit makes me weep for the future of our society.
Delphinidaes on
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The life of someone's elses child is not worth more than my entertainment.
Mostly because you're the fuckup who left it in their reach and ignored the warnings, not me.
This is 100% how I feel. I'm sorry your child swallowed a magnet because of YOUR negligence. Hopefully that knowledge that you're a terrible parent sticks with you forever. That or you actually start being a GOOD parent, which is a shocking suggestion, I know.
The life of someone's elses child is not worth more than my entertainment.
Mostly because you're the fuckup who left it in their reach and ignored the warnings, not me.
This is 100% how I feel. I'm sorry your child swallowed a magnet because of YOUR negligence. Hopefully that knowledge that you're a terrible parent sticks with you forever. That or you actually start being a GOOD parent, which is a shocking suggestion, I know.
Man it isn't about being a good or a bad parent.
Like I know that's the go-to, but like Jeffe said your kids are on 24/7 looking to kill themselves. Nothing would please them more than to slit their tiny throats with their adorable little hands.
Missing a very unlikely accident is not exactly a sign you're a demon. Although you know, not having tiny swallowable shit around is pretty standard for parenting.
That's the biggest thing durandal. I'm not attacking you because you can't watch your demonspawn 24/7 -- I'm attacking you because you kept small swallow-able magnets laying about. That's just irresponsible and the blame is squarely on whoever's shoulders at that level. Plus the whole not caring about your kid (figurative your), because I'm responsible enough to not do that, so maybe you should be banned, not me.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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Well, that and swimming pool lobbyists.
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They're super small! You don't want that out where legit any kid can get their hands on it. I'd keep it out of the house until they were 10.
You know that's going up their nose or something. My dad dealt with like a kid a week who shoved a marble up his or her nose.
Ah, so it's even easier for a kid to swallow them. That's good to know.
I've seen cases of people who swallowed like 20+ knifes and forks and such. Magnets still be more dangerous yo. (Don't let what sounds logical at first colour your view, your digestive tract is weird.)
Correct. In case anyone was confused: the reason magnets are dangerous is because they can move along your intestine, then if they're in separate parts of the intestine but close enough to attract through the walls, SNAP! You now have two parts of intestines stuck together, which can cause blockages, twists, infections, etc.
Of course, I'm still not in favor of bannination. I mean, even without the whole "toys" aspect, any parent should know better than to leave things small enough to swallow around young children. This is part of "baby proofing". The only magnets that should be on your fridge are those awesome ABC ones that are way too big to swallow, and can be used by your drunken friends to spell curse words.
Damn shame you have to put your magnetic poetry up at the top of the fridge. Damn shame.
yeah getting rid of fridge magnets should definitely be part of any baby-proofing. I've spent my entire childhood knowing only wooden fridge-doors, so I never though about this, but man you gotta get rid of of even such seemingly innocuous things.
And I am not really convinced on a ban either. But consider Jef's post about how easily you might think they're safe, and then consider his post about how even the most awesome parent can slip up and fucking thank the lord for it not ending in tragedy (and how many awesome parents will end up with a tragedy). I like my novelty shit as much as the next geek, but I also believe that we shouldn't let our personal enjoyment overcome what is good for society. A lot of reactions here seem to put so much blame on "stupid parents" or "stupid kids" like we're dealing with some survival of the fittest shit. I don't care if it's only stupid people that this happens to, it wouldn't make it ok somehow.
I don't think it's just "stupid parents ruining fun", it's the fact that so many, many things fall into this category, and the magnets aren't even near the top of the list.
Will stopping 100,000 people from buying something save 1 kid/year? Maybe, or maybe instead of getting distracted by the magnets before they find the steak knife, they just move on to the steak knife.
I don't see what makes the magnets more dangerous than any of the decorations or other toys I have around my house.
Edit: For context, I have a replica Anduril mounted at the end of my corridor. If a kid tugs at it, it's going to come off, and probably make a hole in him/her, and probably ruin my wall.
All told I have around 13 swords of various shapes, sizes and sharpness strewn around. (yes I have a problem
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
I like how it's been like 10 or so pages and you still haven't answered my question.
Why haven't we banned swimming pools?
Because the pros are greater then the cons obviously.
It shouldn't be hard to figure this out from his arguments formulation.
What precedents are a matter of concern here?
What is the pro side to swimming pools? Staying cool and exercise? Fuck man inside and do some push ups in the ACed house. Then no kids will die unless someone forgot to pick up their buckyballs or turn them over after the ban (lolright), and some little shit swallows them while doing some military push ups.
Swimming pools are far better exercise then what you suggest for many many people. (the elderly in particular) They are also part of our society, training for swimming in non-pool environments, gathering places for a wide variety of atheletic activities (many of which shouldn't be hard to think of with the goddamn Olympics going on) and so on. There's also transition costs, both economic and social to consider in getting rid of swimming pools.
Buckyballs or the like, on the other hand, are a fucking desktoy of limited applications used by a comparatively minute number of people.
The amount of rabid defence of their right to exist in this thread is in vast disproportion to their value to even the people who own the damn things, who I bet aren't even most of the people posting in this thread.
Like they're just giant hard to clean puddles.
Edit: I'd say if a product with a specific choking/safety hazard warning on it was taken off the market due to a child choking on it, it would suggest that products with safety warnings have zero ass coverage. So Lego has gotta go too, you know?
Hey kind of like how I suggested that toy could be used to increase dexterity of the mind and body for older patients! Well, even so, we could put pools in public areas so it's only under lifeguard supervision! We don't need personal pools!
The statistics suggest otherwise. Plus, legos and darts kill more kids a year than buckyballs have their entire existence.
A total of 0, aside from PantsB's third hand information from his wife how they admit 20 something a month (or whatever it was, it was pretty outlandish in general) and how they are internally devastated by them.
Right, except your idea is nothing but supposition based on ... well, pretty much nothing except trying to pull some reason buckyballs are "good for people" out of your ass.
And fyi, personal pools are already heavily regulated. At least where I'm from.
So if you really wanna use this analogy, you seem to be arguing for heavy regulation of buckyballs which I'm pretty sure PantsB has already said he'd be in favour of.
Really, what's the evidence for the vast and varied applications and uses of buckyballs? What "statistics" are these?
I'm not, but his position falls flat on its face because all these regulations don't do jack shit to stop it.
And sure they have regulations, but still, more people die to it than buckyballs. Why, again, are we not banning pools, and/or darts? (I believe I linked some statistics back a dozen or so pages ago on darts IIRC).
I'm not sure why the utility / usefulness / number of applications of a product should be a factor here. How do you measure it? Who has the final word on whether a product is "useful" or not? Kids get hold of videogames above their age rating all the time which is, according to some, harmful to them. And videogames with violent or sexual content aren't useful in any measurable way; they're just giant wastes of time as far as any non-gamer is concerned. Ban them! Ingestion of nail polish remover is one of the leading causes of severe pediatric poisoning. Is nail polish so vital to our society that it justifies risking children's lives? Ban it! Alcohol is a major cause of both pediatric and adult death. How is it useful? Ban it! Kids that are allergic to nuts might die from eating one nut. What does society gain from an unhealthy, child-killing snack like nuts? Ban them! Dogs have been known to attack children. How is a pet dog useful? Ban them! Surely someone's "fun" can't be worth the lives of our chilllldrrennnnn!
Or do you just mean that Buckyballs aren't popular enough? They have failed to capture the interest of more than X% of the population, and therefore they are under a different standard of scrutiny? This company sells a hypothetically dangerous product, but has failed to sell enough of them; let's drive them out of business? Wouldn't it make more sense to ban products that are popular and kill more children?
That's if you believe the things should be banned based on their proneness to accidents.
Luckily that's not how we view things, and rightfully so. That's why swimming pools are not banned, and why Buckyballs should not be banned. The only reason there is a call to ban them is because of the mental imagery of the potential risks involved and a fearmongering campaign. The company has taken every precaution with their product, the consumer blatantly ignores those precautions, and accidents occur. This is not the fault of the company, it IS the fault of the parent who bought them for their child or left them in reach of a toddler, but even that being the case it's still just an accident, one of millions that happen around the world. No child has died from this product, there are 12 reported incidents of ingestion of this product specifically, and even fewer of those required any sort of medical intervention. That's not this week, this month, or this year. That's over the past THREE years. Considering there have been over 2 MILLION of these units sold I think it's pretty absurd to ban a product with an incident rate that low.
You can rail on about risk vs reward all you like, how the life of a child is more important than the entertainment provided by a desk toy, but in actuality we're talking about out of 2,000,000 units, 0.0006% of the consumers have reported ingestion, and even fewer than that required medical aid. I think the life of a child is more important than entertainment. But with the numbers provided in the CPSC report the life of a child is not at an appropriate risk to ban the product.
Every single incident has been neglect of the parent or stupidity of the child (brought about by the lack of the parent to educate the child after giving them a toy specifically marked to not be appropriate for their age, Pseudo-piercings? REALLY?)
I just simply don't believe we should ban something because consumers can't be arsed to read or comprehend a damned label that basically says KEEP AWAY FROM CHILDREN MAY CAUSE BODILY HARM OR DEATH. Instead of banning everything that could possibly hurt anything we should make a concerted effort to educate the populous about not being stupid. Not leaving small rare earth magnets lying around in reach of children (Much like you wouldn't leave needles, rat poison, plastic bags, etc around them), not giving rare earth magnets to children who are under the age recommended. (You'll note there are no reported incidents of this happening to children over the recommended age), or if you REALLY feel the need to give your underaged child a tiny rare earth magnet and leave them unsupervised at the VERY least you should sit them down and educate them on the dangers involved. If they are not old enough to comprehend a talk of that nature, then it is your responsibility to not buy the product in the first place or keep it locked away like any other potential risk.
Instead of doing any of that though, we've decided it's much easier to just ban the product because people can't be trusted to act intelligently, despite the fact that a very small percentage of the consumers are actually even affected in the first place.
I mentioned this a while back but noone really replied to it, what if by some miracle it wasn't children being affected, but pets? Would the same outrage be there? What if it killed 50 pets every year? Do you think there would still be a call for a ban? Or do you think that the pet owners would assume responsibility for what happened because the packaging says to keep away from household pets?
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Mostly because you're the fuckup who left it in their reach and ignored the warnings, not me. If it were my child, maybe, and I'd probably lock mine up or just not buy them.
Difficult concepts to grasp, I'll admit. /s
I'm not so callous as to have this particular viewpoint, but that notwithstanding I still don't think the risks are great enough to warrant any sort of action outside of product labeling and maybe a Public Service Announcement educating people on magnet use.
Wouldn't really be a bad idea in general considering how integrated magnets are in our everyday lives.
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The more I know them the more value they have, but realistically, if a meteor killed a house full of people I didn't know, I'd care for about 1 minute. If they were evil geniuses that built some sort of meteor attractor and left it on out of idiocy, I'd care for about 0 minutes.
I feel like this is an apt analogy, if not a perfect one.
Off the top of my head:
- If Buckyballs are an unnecessary frivolity resulting in X deaths per year, then presumably we should ban any similarly unnecessary frivolity that results in more than X deaths per year. What might this list include?
- If we are banning something that is exhaustively labeled as not-child-safe because it is not child-safe, what does that mean for how we use warning labels as a means of deterrent?
If we wish to maintain a consistent and coherent application of safety regulations - and I'm assuming that we do - then we really can't just ban things on a whim without considering how those standards will be applied in the future.
I agree with the thrust of your argument, but a lot of your analogies up there fail because of what would happen if we did ban those things. We've tried banning alcohol - we got a huge black market, violent crime, and people still drank the stuff anyway, making probably 40% of the nation into criminals. I don't know what banning nuts would actually look like, but you probably end up with eliminating all related regulation, and suddenly people with allergies can't really be sure that folks aren't sneaking peanuts into their M&Ms.
Banning Buckyballs would have pretty much no direct fallout. Nobody's going to make black market Buckyballs. Banning them would just mean they aren't there anymore.
As I said before, I think banning Buckyballs is dumb, but if you are going to enact a reactionary and ill-informed ban on some diversionary product, this is a comparatively harmless target.
People would likely still use buckyballs just not with that brand name. There are plenty of products around your house that benefit from them. Like... fridge magnets (like the cause of a few of those "buckyball" incidents).
Thank you.
iirc, a few years back, maybe 10 or so, there was in fact a magnetic product that was specifically marketed as a pseudo-piercing, so it isn't really that outlandish an idea for someone to have.
Is that product still around, or did it get banned?
First google result http://www.achadirect.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=114_254&zenid=572b66fce57cfb1850d3b292d39cfdd8
Magnetic tongue/ear/nose studs
Oh I don't think the idea is outlandish, in fact it seems a very natural extension to go from a piercing, to one that has all the appearances but with none of the holes in your face. I just found the fact that it seems to be one of the major causes incredibly stupid. I thought it was more small children finding them on the desk, or toddlers picking them up off the ground, but no it's small children attaching them to their faces after being given them by their parents. It's an order of magnitude more absurd than I had initially thought an dit makes me weep for the future of our society.
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This is 100% how I feel. I'm sorry your child swallowed a magnet because of YOUR negligence. Hopefully that knowledge that you're a terrible parent sticks with you forever. That or you actually start being a GOOD parent, which is a shocking suggestion, I know.
Man it isn't about being a good or a bad parent.
Like I know that's the go-to, but like Jeffe said your kids are on 24/7 looking to kill themselves. Nothing would please them more than to slit their tiny throats with their adorable little hands.
Missing a very unlikely accident is not exactly a sign you're a demon. Although you know, not having tiny swallowable shit around is pretty standard for parenting.