Except at no point did she call them lesser people.
Not approving of a person doing X thing does not mean you think they're horrific abominations who must be stoned. People are attributing a shit ton more hyperbole to a statement than it has. Which is pretty much none. Unless anyone in here thinks anyone who does something they personally don't approve of is subhuman garbage.
She is essentially saying "Yall gon burn in hell, but that's okay"
Or she's saying nothing
In no case is what she's saying supportive
Only in this thread could "Don't hate gay people" be considered not supportive.
when it's appended with "even though they do those terrible things gay people do" it isn't
Quote where she said they do terrible things. I can wait.
“Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.”
right here
fuck gendered marketing
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I mean can anyone quote where she said she believes they are either abominations or should burn in Hell?
And no, saying "Love them even you don't personally don't approve of their lifestyle" is not saying that. Lots of people do lots of things plenty of people here personally don't approve of.
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
I mean can anyone quote where she said she believes they are either abominations or should burn in Hell?
And no, saying "Love them even you don't personally don't approve of their lifestyle" is not saying that. Lots of people do lots of things plenty of people here personally don't approve of.
Except at no point did she call them lesser people.
Not approving of a person doing X thing does not mean you think they're horrific abominations who must be stoned. People are attributing a shit ton more hyperbole to a statement than it has. Which is pretty much none. Unless anyone in here thinks anyone who does something they personally don't approve of is subhuman garbage.
She is essentially saying "Yall gon burn in hell, but that's okay"
Or she's saying nothing
In no case is what she's saying supportive
Only in this thread could "Don't hate gay people" be considered not supportive.
when it's appended with "even though they do those terrible things gay people do" it isn't
Quote where she said they do terrible things. I can wait.
“Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.”
right here
So you can't.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I mean can anyone quote where she said she believes they are either abominations or should burn in Hell?
And no, saying "Love them even you don't personally don't approve of their lifestyle" is not saying that. Lots of people do lots of things plenty of people here personally don't approve of.
If convictions against LGBT are based in Judeo-Christian values, the only instructive part of the Bible with regard to those issues is Lev 18:22, which states, and I quote, ". . . it is an abomination unto the Lord."
It's pretty cut and dried.
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
Except at no point did she call them lesser people.
Not approving of a person doing X thing does not mean you think they're horrific abominations who must be stoned. People are attributing a shit ton more hyperbole to a statement than it has. Which is pretty much none. Unless anyone in here thinks anyone who does something they personally don't approve of is subhuman garbage.
She is essentially saying "Yall gon burn in hell, but that's okay"
Or she's saying nothing
In no case is what she's saying supportive
Only in this thread could "Don't hate gay people" be considered not supportive.
when it's appended with "even though they do those terrible things gay people do" it isn't
Quote where she said they do terrible things. I can wait.
“Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.”
No you really didn't. You made some baseless assumptions.
Edit: Actually no. Not entirely baseless. It's entirely [i[possible[/i] she could mean that. It's just that you've completely failed to show any reasonable way that she did.
Quid on
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I mean can anyone quote where she said she believes they are either abominations or should burn in Hell?
And no, saying "Love them even you don't personally don't approve of their lifestyle" is not saying that. Lots of people do lots of things plenty of people here personally don't approve of.
If convictions against LGBT are based in Judeo-Christian values, the only instructive part of the Bible with regard to those issues is Lev 18:22, which states, and I quote, ". . . it is an abomination unto the Lord."
It's pretty cut and dried.
Or the even less amicable early church doctrine
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
She disagrees with the core of my being. She has convictions about it.
Whatever else is going on, I do not feel that her views are approaching supportive.
Quid is also confused about why it's racist to stockpile guns in order to defend yourself from the Urban Thugs
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I mean can anyone quote where she said she believes they are either abominations or should burn in Hell?
And no, saying "Love them even you don't personally don't approve of their lifestyle" is not saying that. Lots of people do lots of things plenty of people here personally don't approve of.
If convictions against LGBT are based in Judeo-Christian values, the only instructive part of the Bible with regard to those issues is Lev 18:22, which states, and I quote, ". . . it is an abomination unto the Lord."
It's pretty cut and dried.
Or the even less amicable early church doctrine
So as you're a self described Catholic I can only assume that you agree wholesale with the bible too then, right?
I mean can anyone quote where she said she believes they are either abominations or should burn in Hell?
And no, saying "Love them even you don't personally don't approve of their lifestyle" is not saying that. Lots of people do lots of things plenty of people here personally don't approve of.
The thing with disapproval for religious reasons is they start to go really dark places quick. Even if she thinks gay people don't deserve to go to hell for their sins, she's implying that they don't deserve equal rights as citizens which is still a shitty opinion to have.
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
No you really didn't. You made some baseless assumptions.
Edit: Actually no. Not entirely baseless. It's entirely [i[possible[/i] she could mean that. It's just that you've completely failed to show any reasonable way that she did.
I'll also make sure not to make any baseless assumptions about nice people talking about how the neighborhood has been a bit run down and how it would be nice if certain people didn't drive around out here or show up in the park
fuck gendered marketing
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
I mean can anyone quote where she said she believes they are either abominations or should burn in Hell?
And no, saying "Love them even you don't personally don't approve of their lifestyle" is not saying that. Lots of people do lots of things plenty of people here personally don't approve of.
If convictions against LGBT are based in Judeo-Christian values, the only instructive part of the Bible with regard to those issues is Lev 18:22, which states, and I quote, ". . . it is an abomination unto the Lord."
It's pretty cut and dried.
Or the even less amicable early church doctrine
So as you're a self described Catholic I can only assume that you agree wholesale with the bible to then, right?
Quid, I don't think this is productive. I do think it is terribly unfair to Elldren, though.
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
I mean can anyone quote where she said she believes they are either abominations or should burn in Hell?
And no, saying "Love them even you don't personally don't approve of their lifestyle" is not saying that. Lots of people do lots of things plenty of people here personally don't approve of.
If convictions against LGBT are based in Judeo-Christian values, the only instructive part of the Bible with regard to those issues is Lev 18:22, which states, and I quote, ". . . it is an abomination unto the Lord."
It's pretty cut and dried.
Or the even less amicable early church doctrine
So as you're a self described Catholic I can only assume that you agree wholesale with the bible too then, right?
She disagrees with the core of my being. She has convictions about it.
Whatever else is going on, I do not feel that her views are approaching supportive.
Which conviction? The conviction that her jacked up God may or may not ascribe homosexuals as sinners which may or may not mean anything depending on which church she's goes to and which she says people should ignore anyway?
I mean can anyone quote where she said she believes they are either abominations or should burn in Hell?
And no, saying "Love them even you don't personally don't approve of their lifestyle" is not saying that. Lots of people do lots of things plenty of people here personally don't approve of.
The thing with disapproval for religious reasons is they start to go really dark places quick. Even if she thinks gay people don't deserve to go to hell for their sins, she's implying that they don't deserve equal rights as citizens which is still a shitty opinion to have.
No she really isn't. If she said people should instead use the law to achieve their beliefs she would be implying that. Law never even entered in to what she said.
No you really didn't. You made some baseless assumptions.
Edit: Actually no. Not entirely baseless. It's entirely [i[possible[/i] she could mean that. It's just that you've completely failed to show any reasonable way that she did.
I'll also make sure not to make any baseless assumptions about nice people talking about how the neighborhood has been a bit run down and how it would be nice if certain people didn't drive around out here or show up in the park
Then from now on if you say you don't approve of something but people shouldn't judge the people who do it I'll go ahead and assume you think they should be stoned just for the sake of consistency.
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
edited April 2013
You're right, Quid
We have no idea what she believes (except Ross who knows her personally I guess and has been trying to tell you what she believes, but putting that aside)
We just have a statement that we should love people (with lots of caveats involving homophobic dog-whistles but they could instead just be perfectly innocent!)
Fuck it, I'm done. Feel free to be the geese spool thinks you're all a parody of if you want. Hopefully the super duper pure votes in any other states will outweigh everyone else you've all decided are bigots for not waving a flag.
This is the post that got this whole conversation started
“Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. This is standard boilerplate for: "How dare you accuse me of being hateful just because I oppose gay rights!"
The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. I don't like the gay choices you've made in your life but I still love you!
Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.” I'm compassionately telling you that you don't deserve equal treatment under the law.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Fuck it, I'm done. Feel free to be the geese spool thinks you're all a parody of if you want. Hopefully the super duper pure votes in any other states will outweigh everyone else you've all decided are bigots for not waving a flag.
I don't need a flag, man. I'd settle for an absence of passive legitimization of bigotry.
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ElldrenIs a woman dammitceterum censeoRegistered Userregular
This is the post that got this whole conversation started
“Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. This is standard boilerplate for: "How dare you accuse me of being hateful just because I oppose gay rights!"
The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. I don't like the gay choices you've made in your life but I still love you!
Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.” I'm compassionately telling you that you don't deserve equal treatment under the law.
Thank you
It's a common reformulation of the old "Love the sinner, Hate the sin" canard
the fact that she is saying this at all is problematic
Except at no point did she call them lesser people.
Not approving of a person doing X thing does not mean you think they're horrific abominations who must be stoned. People are attributing a shit ton more hyperbole to a statement than it has. Which is pretty much none. Unless anyone in here thinks anyone who does something they personally don't approve of is subhuman garbage.
She is essentially saying "Yall gon burn in hell, but that's okay"
Or she's saying nothing
In no case is what she's saying supportive
Only in this thread could "Don't hate gay people" be considered not supportive.
when it's appended with "even though they do those terrible things gay people do" it isn't
Quote where she said they do terrible things. I can wait.
As soon as you quote where she said "don't hate gay people"
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
the fact that she is saying this at all is problematic
The really bad part is that the quote concretely condones passive bigotry while failing to cement its position w/r/t to what kind of "compassion" LGBTeamers are worthy of.
I mean, in a limited definition, compassion may just mean "we won't try to kill you with rocks."
Except at no point did she call them lesser people.
Not approving of a person doing X thing does not mean you think they're horrific abominations who must be stoned. People are attributing a shit ton more hyperbole to a statement than it has. Which is pretty much none. Unless anyone in here thinks anyone who does something they personally don't approve of is subhuman garbage.
She is essentially saying "Yall gon burn in hell, but that's okay"
Or she's saying nothing
In no case is what she's saying supportive
Only in this thread could "Don't hate gay people" be considered not supportive.
It's a comment in the same vein as "Bless your heart."
the fact that she is saying this at all is problematic
The really bad part is that the quote concretely condones passive bigotry while failing to cement its position w/r/t to what kind of "compassion" LGBTeamers are worthy of.
I mean, in a limited definition, compassion may just mean "we won't try to kill you with rocks."
Or even "We will try to kill you with rocks but we'll feel really bad about it"
edit: or even "We're going to kill you with rocks for your own good, it's better this way"
Elldren on
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
the fact that she is saying this at all is problematic
The really bad part is that the quote concretely condones passive bigotry while failing to cement its position w/r/t to what kind of "compassion" LGBTeamers are worthy of.
I mean, in a limited definition, compassion may just mean "we won't try to kill you with rocks."
Or even "We will try to kill you with rocks but we'll feel really bad about it"
Yeah, I suppose.
"It's for your own good! We love you! We will cry for you at your funeral! After we kill you!"
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
This is the post that got this whole conversation started
“Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. This is standard boilerplate for: "How dare you accuse me of being hateful just because I oppose gay rights!"
The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. I don't like the gay choices you've made in your life but I still love you!
Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.” I'm compassionately telling you that you don't deserve equal treatment under the law.
I for one admit to having misread the original quote as being, "It's a lie that if you disagree with someone's lifestyle, you must meddle with their life, and it's a lie that if you decide meddling is wrong, that means you approve of that lifestyle."
This is because, not being religious, I associate hatred and love with actions, not bullshit. I apologize for arguing incorrectly earlier.
Except at no point did she call them lesser people.
Not approving of a person doing X thing does not mean you think they're horrific abominations who must be stoned. People are attributing a shit ton more hyperbole to a statement than it has. Which is pretty much none. Unless anyone in here thinks anyone who does something they personally don't approve of is subhuman garbage.
She is essentially saying "Yall gon burn in hell, but that's okay"
Or she's saying nothing
In no case is what she's saying supportive
Only in this thread could "Don't hate gay people" be considered not supportive.
It's a comment in the same vein as "Bless your heart."
I hold even less interest in giving her the benefit of the doubt because of the number of people sharing that quote that are TOTALLY opposed.
PAD ID - 328,762,218
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
the fact that she is saying this at all is problematic
The really bad part is that the quote concretely condones passive bigotry while failing to cement its position w/r/t to what kind of "compassion" LGBTeamers are worthy of.
I mean, in a limited definition, compassion may just mean "we won't try to kill you with rocks."
Or even "We will try to kill you with rocks but we'll feel really bad about it"
Yeah, I suppose.
"It's for your own good! We love you! We will cry for you at your funeral! After we kill you!"
Yeah, compassion can be used for some fucked up actions. Like up to torture if you fear they'll go to Hell. Fortunately I have not seen that particular thing lately.
Hey you know what's better than this? Besides everything of course. But I was referring to GOOD NEWS!
Uruguay's Senate voted to legalize gay marriage, 23-8. The lower house is expected to vote and pass the modified bill within 2 weeks. The ruling party, which pledged to vote for the law, controls both houses. Once passed, the government has up to 90 days to implement it, followed by the president signing it into law. All of the above are expected to happen. They're the second nation to approve marriage equality in Latin America (Argentina the first), and will (likely, barring something absolutely drastic) become the 12th nation to legalize gay marriage.
Hey you know what's better than this? Besides everything of course. But I was referring to GOOD NEWS!
Uruguay's Senate voted to legalize gay marriage, 23-8. The lower house is expected to vote and pass the modified bill within 2 weeks. The ruling party, which pledged to vote for the law, controls both houses. Once passed, the government has up to 90 days to implement it, followed by the president signing it into law. All of the above are expected to happen. They're the second nation to approve marriage equality in Latin America (Argentina the first), and will (likely, barring something absolutely drastic) become the 12th nation to legalize gay marriage.
Unfortunately I don't forsee any further Latin American countries joining them in the immediate future, but hope springs eternal
I find the phrase "straight ally" super weird. I don't think anyone's ever called me that before, and I certainly don't define myself an "ally" of the gay rights movement. That word just makes me think of like supply trains and strategic geopolitical alliances. Like, allies eventually stop being allies, they're working together but are by definition fundamentally separate. I'm not "pro-gay", I'm pro equality and pro treating all people with respect. And I don't consider my support for equal treatment under the law to be some sort of magnanimous gesture because of how kind I am. I support good schools in my community even though I don't have kids because I don't want to live in a community of stupid people, and I support gay rights and minority rights because I want to live in a free and fair democracy, and I don't want to live in a shitty-ass 18th century theocracy.
I dunno, I guess it's not really that simple either, but I just find it weird when people act like if you're straight you can just pick up and walk away from gay rights at no cost. The stakes are obviously not the same, but I still feel like I have a personal stake in gay rights succeeding, just like I have an interest in women being treated equally and fairly despite me not being female. I want people to be treated right, because I'm also a person, and that's a far more important bond than skin color or who you want to have sex with, at least to me.
Uh that might've turned a little heavier than I was intending, but yeah.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
Posts
right here
And no, saying "Love them even you don't personally don't approve of their lifestyle" is not saying that. Lots of people do lots of things plenty of people here personally don't approve of.
It's ok Quid
You haven't been trained to hear the whistle
So you can't.
If convictions against LGBT are based in Judeo-Christian values, the only instructive part of the Bible with regard to those issues is Lev 18:22, which states, and I quote, ". . . it is an abomination unto the Lord."
It's pretty cut and dried.
I just did
No you really didn't. You made some baseless assumptions.
No you really didn't. You made some baseless assumptions.
Edit: Actually no. Not entirely baseless. It's entirely [i[possible[/i] she could mean that. It's just that you've completely failed to show any reasonable way that she did.
Don't make us show you what the definition of "baseless" is. Please, friend. I like you.
Or the even less amicable early church doctrine
Whatever else is going on, I do not feel that her views are approaching supportive.
So as you're a self described Catholic I can only assume that you agree wholesale with the bible too then, right?
The thing with disapproval for religious reasons is they start to go really dark places quick. Even if she thinks gay people don't deserve to go to hell for their sins, she's implying that they don't deserve equal rights as citizens which is still a shitty opinion to have.
I'll also make sure not to make any baseless assumptions about nice people talking about how the neighborhood has been a bit run down and how it would be nice if certain people didn't drive around out here or show up in the park
Quid, I don't think this is productive. I do think it is terribly unfair to Elldren, though.
fuck no
I'm a terrible Catholic
Which conviction? The conviction that her jacked up God may or may not ascribe homosexuals as sinners which may or may not mean anything depending on which church she's goes to and which she says people should ignore anyway?
Truly she is Falwell reborn.
No she really isn't. If she said people should instead use the law to achieve their beliefs she would be implying that. Law never even entered in to what she said.
Then from now on if you say you don't approve of something but people shouldn't judge the people who do it I'll go ahead and assume you think they should be stoned just for the sake of consistency.
We have no idea what she believes (except Ross who knows her personally I guess and has been trying to tell you what she believes, but putting that aside)
We just have a statement that we should love people (with lots of caveats involving homophobic dog-whistles but they could instead just be perfectly innocent!)
I don't need a flag, man. I'd settle for an absence of passive legitimization of bigotry.
Thank you
It's a common reformulation of the old "Love the sinner, Hate the sin" canard
the fact that she is saying this at all is problematic
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
The really bad part is that the quote concretely condones passive bigotry while failing to cement its position w/r/t to what kind of "compassion" LGBTeamers are worthy of.
I mean, in a limited definition, compassion may just mean "we won't try to kill you with rocks."
It's a comment in the same vein as "Bless your heart."
It isn't a demonstration of support. It is a demonstration of the problem.
This isn't purity/cause bullshit like "straight ally" crap earlier. It is the very problem.
Or even "We will try to kill you with rocks but we'll feel really bad about it"
edit: or even "We're going to kill you with rocks for your own good, it's better this way"
Yeah, I suppose.
"It's for your own good! We love you! We will cry for you at your funeral! After we kill you!"
I for one admit to having misread the original quote as being, "It's a lie that if you disagree with someone's lifestyle, you must meddle with their life, and it's a lie that if you decide meddling is wrong, that means you approve of that lifestyle."
This is because, not being religious, I associate hatred and love with actions, not bullshit. I apologize for arguing incorrectly earlier.
I hold even less interest in giving her the benefit of the doubt because of the number of people sharing that quote that are TOTALLY opposed.
Yeah, compassion can be used for some fucked up actions. Like up to torture if you fear they'll go to Hell. Fortunately I have not seen that particular thing lately.
Uruguay's Senate voted to legalize gay marriage, 23-8. The lower house is expected to vote and pass the modified bill within 2 weeks. The ruling party, which pledged to vote for the law, controls both houses. Once passed, the government has up to 90 days to implement it, followed by the president signing it into law. All of the above are expected to happen. They're the second nation to approve marriage equality in Latin America (Argentina the first), and will (likely, barring something absolutely drastic) become the 12th nation to legalize gay marriage.
Steam
Making it socially unacceptable and in some cases illegal to be openly homophobic is the first step to getting rid of the problem.
Unfortunately I don't forsee any further Latin American countries joining them in the immediate future, but hope springs eternal
I dunno, I guess it's not really that simple either, but I just find it weird when people act like if you're straight you can just pick up and walk away from gay rights at no cost. The stakes are obviously not the same, but I still feel like I have a personal stake in gay rights succeeding, just like I have an interest in women being treated equally and fairly despite me not being female. I want people to be treated right, because I'm also a person, and that's a far more important bond than skin color or who you want to have sex with, at least to me.
Uh that might've turned a little heavier than I was intending, but yeah.