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Women, Shame, and Desire

robbehrobbeh Registered User regular
edited September 2012 in Help / Advice Forum
How I perceive myself is this: I'm on a trajectory toward bitterness, unfulfilled desire, and resignation. There's this sense in my mind that I'm losing something, like my potential is swiftly unraveling. I feel like I am unable to change my personality to be more fun and desirable, less burdened and sad. I'm looking for inspiration and hope that I'm wrong.

I'm in my 20's and I've never had a serious relationship, or been laid. I don't think anyone would assume that based on looking at me - it just hasn't happened. It's infrequent that I work up the courage to ask out a pretty girl, and they're the only kind of girl I find myself attracted to. Usually when I ask the response is good - only been few times I didn't get a girls number when I asked - but after that things don't go forward because I'm extremely nervous, or reserved, or not aggressive, or our personalities and just really different. Honestly (I think) most girls take a look at me and think I'm some alpha male and when they get to know me I'm really sensitive, and it's a huge turn off. I don't want to misrepresent myself as some golden boy either, cuz I'm not. I'm critical of others and myself, and I'm a bit self-centered. But I'm also not some bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused. That mentality really disturbs me.

So I don't know what to do. I've avoided socialization like the plague cuz, even though I'm physically impressive, I'm shy as hell and very introverted and I get very nervous in crowds. I got enough guts to ask girls out cold and it usually works, but it seems a bit creepy and weird and a bit humiliating.

Some stuff about me:
In good shape
Pretty well read
Addicted to politics
Do a little boxing
Used to be pilot
In school
Some artistic talent and taste
Don't drink, etc.
Coming out of a very rough couple of years, feel a bit burdened still

Sorry for being melodramatic! :p Just trying to accurately convey my thoughts.

robbeh on
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    ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Stop making assumptions about what women are thinking about you. Women are not inherently turned off by sensitivity, nor inherently turned on by an alpha male. They're people - talk to them like they're people.

    Also, "pretty" is not a personality trait. Your best bet is to take all those things you listed and look for people who like at least a few of them too. That's how relationships are made.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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    mysticjuicermysticjuicer [he/him] I'm a muscle wizard and I cast P U N C HRegistered User regular
    Everything that Ceres said.

    Also, if you find it easy to get numbers, you're probably attractive, so you've got that going for you. Where are you meeting women? The reason I ask is if you're just asking people out at clubs/bars, then you're only guaranteed to have one thing in common; you both happen to be at the same club or bar. You're basically gambling that you're both looking for the same thing.

    If you want to meet someone you'll have more in common with, try meeting people in different places. If you're passionate about videogames, or cooking, attend a convention or take a cooking class. Or make an online dating profile. We've got a thread in Debate & Discourse that'll help you set up a profile.

    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/149703/internet-dating-who-is-your-favorite-duck-and-other-dating-questions#latest

    narwhal wrote:
    Why am I Terran?
    My YouTube Channel! Featuring silly little Guilty Gear Strive videos and other stuff!
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    FruhmannFruhmann Registered User regular
    i don't think you want a relationship. you want sex or the idea or a relationship. your whole post is nothing but self deprecating "I" statements. you don't need to meet women. you just need to meet people. stop bottling up your social anxiousness and then unleashing it on some poor girl who becomes a target of your issues.

    if you just get yourself out there more, play it cool (don't eye F or corner trap-talk ANY girl), they'll notice you. because if you're not all on them, they'll be more comfortable accepting you as an individual in the social atmosphere. girls want to know they can have two things from a guy when they meet him. that they won't be judged or have over critical comments made. and that they can have fun with/be fun with/ and get fun from this person. fun being very vague and relative to the girl/group. fun to a group of gamer girls might not be the same type of fun a group of club going girls would enjoy. that's where just hanging out comes into play. you get to know people, what they're about and what they like.

    bottom line: before you can be anyone else's significant other, you have to be, make and feel significant on your own.

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    PixelMonkeyPixelMonkey Registered User regular
    Never let them you've reached your twenties without a relationship alot of them are well weird about that, mind you if it's a big deal to them they aren't individuals worth hanging out with any way. But yeah as previous psoters have mentioned try gatherings of people that sare the same just a suggestion there don't know really. If you suffer from social anxiety maybe go to some therapy for that? I don't know man same probs as you buddy hope it gets better for you.

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    SubhumanSubhuman Overlord BaltimoreRegistered User regular
    robbeh wrote:
    How I perceive myself is this: I'm on a trajectory toward bitterness, unfulfilled desire, and resignation. There's this sense in my mind that I'm losing something, like my potential is swiftly unraveling. I feel like I am unable to change my personality to be more fun and desirable, less burdened and sad. I'm looking for inspiration and hope that I'm wrong.

    I'm in my 20's and I've never had a serious relationship, or been laid. I don't think anyone would assume that based on looking at me - it just hasn't happened. It's infrequent that I work up the courage to ask out a pretty girl, and they're the only kind of girl I find myself attracted to. Usually when I ask the response is good - only been few times I didn't get a girls number when I asked - but after that things don't go forward because I'm extremely nervous, or reserved, or not aggressive, or our personalities and just really different. Honestly (I think) most girls take a look at me and think I'm some alpha male and when they get to know me I'm really sensitive, and it's a huge turn off. I don't want to misrepresent myself as some golden boy either, cuz I'm not. I'm critical of others and myself, and I'm a bit self-centered. But I'm also not some bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused. That mentality really disturbs me.

    So I don't know what to do. I've avoided socialization like the plague cuz, even though I'm physically impressive, I'm shy as hell and very introverted and I get very nervous in crowds. I got enough guts to ask girls out cold and it usually works, but it seems a bit creepy and weird and a bit humiliating.

    Some stuff about me:
    In good shape
    Pretty well read
    Addicted to politics
    Do a little boxing
    Used to be pilot
    In school
    Some artistic talent and taste
    Don't drink, etc.
    Coming out of a very rough couple of years, feel a bit burdened still

    Sorry for being melodramatic! :p Just trying to accurately convey my thoughts.

    Not to be crass, but I think your problem could be that you don't drink. Pretty much friendship or relationship I've had past highschool has began with copious amounts of alcohol consumption. You don't have to be a raging alcoholic like me, but being open-minded and having a few pints at a nice place may open up some real live social networking for you. You like politics? Drinking and politics mix together great... might cause a few fist fights from time to time, but if you seek out places with like-minded folk, the potential is great.. maybe even get into some local projects or other things you may discover are productive, not just meeting women.

    "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"- Napoleon Bonaparte
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    ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    I met my husband during an activity that does not involve drinking, and he doesn't drink at all. :P Lots of people don't drink, need to drink to meet people, or even think it's particularly interesting. So take that with a huge side helping of salt.

    Also, he was a 32-year-old virgin who'd never had a real relationship when we met, and I really gave no shits about that because he was a kind, wonderful, generous man. He does mention from time to time that he was discriminated against on the dating front once in a while because of that, but the right person really won't mind.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    Drinking to be more comfortable in social situations is a trap.

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    SubhumanSubhuman Overlord BaltimoreRegistered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Drinking to be more comfortable in social situations is a trap.

    True, but I didn't say that drinking should be done to become more confident, I'm saying it's fun and much of the scene for somebody in their 20's (as I am) will be revolved around some level of drinking. Doesn't have to be just a local pub. Open mics, college parties, shows, even political meetings. I've gone to coffee houses that sell booze. You don't have to drink at all, I'm just saying it's an option that opens up a lot of doors to the outside world.

    "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"- Napoleon Bonaparte
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    GafotoGafoto Registered User regular
    I always recommend OkCupid. Do your best to accurately represent yourself on your profile and your personality won't be a surprise when you go on a first date.

    sierracrest.jpg
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    EshEsh Tending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles. Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    Subhuman wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    Drinking to be more comfortable in social situations is a trap.

    True, but I didn't say that drinking should be done to become more confident, I'm saying it's fun and much of the scene for somebody in their 20's (as I am) will be revolved around some level of drinking. Doesn't have to be just a local pub. Open mics, college parties, shows, even political meetings. I've gone to coffee houses that sell booze. You don't have to drink at all, I'm just saying it's an option that opens up a lot of doors to the outside world.

    The most irritating thing in the world is being sober around a bunch of drunk people. Not fun. The OP had a little caveat after "Don't Drink" earlier, so I think there's some good reason he doesn't now and shouldn't start again.

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    UsagiUsagi Nah Registered User regular
    Never let them you've reached your twenties without a relationship alot of them are well weird about that

    To both the OP and PM: women aren't a different species, we're not a "them" to be classified and generalized--we're people, individuals with personalities and different likes/dislikes

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    SubhumanSubhuman Overlord BaltimoreRegistered User regular
    Esh wrote: »
    Subhuman wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    Drinking to be more comfortable in social situations is a trap.

    True, but I didn't say that drinking should be done to become more confident, I'm saying it's fun and much of the scene for somebody in their 20's (as I am) will be revolved around some level of drinking. Doesn't have to be just a local pub. Open mics, college parties, shows, even political meetings. I've gone to coffee houses that sell booze. You don't have to drink at all, I'm just saying it's an option that opens up a lot of doors to the outside world.

    The most irritating thing in the world is being sober around a bunch of drunk people
    . Not fun. The OP had a little caveat after "Don't Drink" earlier, so I think there's some good reason he doesn't now and shouldn't start again.

    haha, so right. That's why I join in with the boisterous, drunken merry-making. Not for everyone, I guess. Can always try dating sites to narrow down his searches. Politics can join people together... Say you're vegan.. there's like maybe 0.5% of the population of females who is vegan, and they would rather date other vegans. Gotta make sacrifices ;)

    "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"- Napoleon Bonaparte
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    FyndirFyndir Registered User regular
    Are you suggesting that the OP should lie, Subhuman?


    'cause that is pretty awful advice.

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    HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Fyndir wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that the OP should lie, Subhuman?


    'cause that is pretty awful advice.

    Gonna have to agree with Fyn here. Any relationship that begins with dishonesty will usually end poorly. Once you let the lies in, they begin to slowly poison everything.

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    FruhmannFruhmann Registered User regular
    Yeah. Drink and lie your way to stability

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    And Drink This SodaAnd Drink This Soda Likes Shenmue In a caveRegistered User new member
    Congratulations on receiving my very first reply on these boards. I kid. It's not an honor at all. I've been reading the comics here for years, but only yesterday (mostly out of depression and loneliness), did I actually make an effort to join the forums here. First off, everyone here seems like genuinely nice people and I'm sure things will work out in the end. I can tell you - in 100% honesty - the most important part of your OP is that "it just hasn't happened". I just came out of a very long relationship - and I sound a lot like you (apart from that boxing part) - so if you're only in your 20s, relax man. It's all good! Just keep being yourself and you'll find someone. Don't change, or think you have to! That's obviously a bad idea. It's not a race. I got married at 20 - just got divorced. I was way too young, I wish I waited - and should have stood up for myself more. Unless you're some sort of freak, everything will work out. And hell, even if you're a freak - there's so much love for freaks these days! As I said, it's not a race - just relax and let things happen. Remember... be yourself. Sure, I feel more confident when I drink... but if that ain't you, that ain't you. Keep your head up. It'll work out. Seriously. It will.

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    KarrmerKarrmer Registered User regular
    I think it's important to acknowledge the fact that you seem pretty clearly a little narcissistic and pessimistic. You come across as the usual type that thinks they're far more intelligent and deep than most of their peers, and any male that goes to a bar, has some drinks, and takes a lady home must be some "bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused."

    Stop thinking that the idea of just having a good time with a woman without some sort of up front long term super deep intense relationship is somehow some awful thing. Just relax and enjoy yourself and allow yourself to do whatever feels natural to you in the situation. Being a human being doesn't make you terrible, nor does allowing yourself to have a drink, though I can understand that idea as I also abstained from drinking for a long time... but now that I enjoy some drinks with my friends I have a lot more fun ;)

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    robbehrobbeh Registered User regular
    edited September 2012
    Karrmer wrote: »
    I think it's important to acknowledge the fact that you seem pretty clearly a little narcissistic and pessimistic. You come across as the usual type that thinks they're far more intelligent and deep than most of their peers, and any male that goes to a bar, has some drinks, and takes a lady home must be some "bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused."

    Does anyone expect me to respond to this?

    Anyway, had a good day - got out and tried to mingle. Got a number, we'll see how things go.
    . Sure, I feel more confident when I drink... but if that ain't you, that ain't you. Keep your head up. It'll work out. Seriously. It will.

    Appreciate it :) welcome to the board! It's a pretty thoughtful community - been lurking around here for a long while. I'll give updates if people care, some good posts in the thread, thanks for the feedback guys.

    robbeh on
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    robbehrobbeh Registered User regular
    Esh wrote: »
    Subhuman wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    Drinking to be more comfortable in social situations is a trap.

    True, but I didn't say that drinking should be done to become more confident, I'm saying it's fun and much of the scene for somebody in their 20's (as I am) will be revolved around some level of drinking. Doesn't have to be just a local pub. Open mics, college parties, shows, even political meetings. I've gone to coffee houses that sell booze. You don't have to drink at all, I'm just saying it's an option that opens up a lot of doors to the outside world.

    The most irritating thing in the world is being sober around a bunch of drunk people. Not fun. The OP had a little caveat after "Don't Drink" earlier, so I think there's some good reason he doesn't now and shouldn't start again.

    Indeed :) I appreciate the sentiment, however, because I think for most normal people it's good for socializing, long as it's moderate. I don't begrudge anyone their beer :)

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    DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited September 2012
    robbeh wrote: »
    Karrmer wrote: »
    I think it's important to acknowledge the fact that you seem pretty clearly a little narcissistic and pessimistic. You come across as the usual type that thinks they're far more intelligent and deep than most of their peers, and any male that goes to a bar, has some drinks, and takes a lady home must be some "bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused."

    Does anyone expect me to respond to this?

    I would at least consider that he might be right. If he's getting that impression (and me too) just from a single post on a message board that you made, I'd say that those elements of personality are coming over thick and strong even through text. I can't even imagine how your apparent superiority complex comes across when dealing with others in person.

    Hell, he brought that subject up in (what I feel to be) a fairly polite and reasonable way. Your unnecessarily rude response only further sends across that impression.

    Rather than dismissing it, I would think about things carefully. It is VERY easy to think yourself more intelligent than other people, especially when you are, but people don't like it when you act that way and it is very easy to unconsciously act that way around people who you feel are your intellectual inferiors.

    Dhalphir on
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    TaphouseTaphouse Registered User regular
    edited September 2012
    Eh, think it's mostly about social exposure. Gunna echo what mystic said and recommend focusing on finding ways to meet people with shared interests

    Taphouse on
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    SubhumanSubhuman Overlord BaltimoreRegistered User regular
    Fyndir wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that the OP should lie, Subhuman?


    'cause that is pretty awful advice.

    No, I was hoping the facetiousness of the fake profile on a dating service was implied. Sorry to mislead, I guess it didn't come off as I intended. I stick to my original advice... get some drinks and go meet people. and yes, be yourself.

    "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"- Napoleon Bonaparte
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    ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Updates are not only welcome, they're looked for and enjoyed.

    Try not to take criticism of the way you're coming off too personally. Seriously think about it; go through your post and think to yourself "If I knew nothing about me, how would this sound?" I didn't get narcissist, but I did get a bit of the 'girls are an alien race' vibe. Check your thinking. Make sure you really aren't thinking of females as 'other'. If you think of yourself as separate, then separate you shall stay. I don't think anyone means any offense, although Karrmer's always kind of an unknown in that respect. :P

    Also, seriously, if you're not into drinking, there's no reason to do it, and don't listen to anyone who tells you that you have to in order to meet people or socialize. There are many many many many many things young 20-somethings get up to that don't involve booze and/or don't require you to drink. There's no reason to think you're missing out just because you order a coke at that get-together instead of a beer.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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    VanguardVanguard But now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    I would just relax and try to meet people. Don't go into any of this stuff with expectations that you're going to get laid, have a relationship, or anything. Just genuinely try to connect with other people and have a good time. If it leads to any of those things, great! If not, it still is a step forward from where you are.

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    KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    Usagi wrote: »
    Never let them you've reached your twenties without a relationship alot of them are well weird about that

    To both the OP and PM: women aren't a different species, we're not a "them" to be classified and generalized--we're people, individuals with personalities and different likes/dislikes

    This for the love of god, treating half of the population as a monolithic group is poisonous

    Also being shy or introverted is really not a big deal as long as it isn't stopping you from being around other people. Doesn't matter what the event is as long as you can stand to be around strangers and hold a conversation when engaged (you dont even have to initiate, just be responsive) you'll be fine

    Unless you're in a context that is specifically about finding somebody to date you really need to not go in with any expectations other than "gonna have a good time and meet some people and maybe expand my circle of friends"

    2x39jD4.jpg
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    PixelMonkeyPixelMonkey Registered User regular
    Seriously OP maybe try some booze netx time you're at a party or gathering. Not much! It could possibley help you not be a worried about talking to other people.

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    EsseeEssee The pinkest of hair. Victoria, BCRegistered User regular
    Crissakes, people, stop trying to convince the OP to drink. He can certainly do this without drinking, and I'm pretty sure from what he's said that he wants to. You never know the reasons why somebody doesn't drink, so when they say they don't do it, just let them not do it and move on. Let's get more advice in here that is actually helpful/insightful (and most posts so far have been).

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    FANTOMASFANTOMAS Flan ArgentavisRegistered User regular
    Lets recap.

    -Alcohol is not necesary
    -Hang out more
    -Dont be pedantic
    -You are young and dont really need to rush to anything
    -Dont engage with high expectations of a long relationship, let things flow organically

    Now, you dont have to go looking for "pretty" girls, as you stated before, and love and sex are two separate things completely, any of those two things are a base for diferent kinds of relationships. Dont understimate the relationship based on sex and friendship, they may not last, but since you are a cherry boy, you shouldnt even DREAM of going out there and finding your soulmate in your first date. Even if you did, you will fuck it up eventually, because that is how we learn things.

    You dont need to be a "bro" that manipulates or looks down on women, women are too, looking for easy relations, where they can relax and have sex comfortably, like many others said, women are no diferent from men, they dont necesarily care for unicorns and prince charming, and living happily ever after with a guy they met at a bar.

    My only real advice is, whatever you choose to do, always make sure the situation is clear for both parties, as in, make sure that you and her know what to expect from the other. (asuming all the previous advise from other forumers will get you within reach of a female species)

    Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
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    El SkidEl Skid The frozen white northRegistered User regular
    edited September 2012
    My advice is as follows- I have had some experience that I believe is similar to your own, hopefully I'm not too far off:

    Feel free to do some introspection when you're by yourself. When you're out looking for a relationship, your job is not to second guess what you are doing or saying (and it sounds like you might be doing that, as a fellow shy guy). Your job is to determine if the person you're talking to is someone you like and would like to know better, and to give that other person a good idea of who you are so that they can do the same.

    Connecting with another human being doesn't come naturally to me, so I know this sounds hard, but it really isn't. If you pay attention to what the other person is saying, talk about things that you are interested in, are interested in what they are saying... these things will probably be obvious to her. If, however, you are second guessing what you said 5 minutes ago, trying not to look her right in the eye for too long because you don't want to be creepy etc... it will be obvious that you aren't all there, though often the assumption will be this is because you aren't into her.

    Paying attention to her instead of yourself will have the additional benefit of warning you if this is not someone you would want to spend time with. And although I realize that this is not your current problem, it very easily can become a very large one.

    Hope that helps!

    El Skid on
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    NamrokNamrok Registered User regular
    You know, I think most of the advice you are getting is from people who either haven't experience, or have forgotten what the vicious cycle of being inexperienced, lacking confidence, and rejection is like.

    I mean some of its great advice in theory. Be open minded. Don't think of women as "others". Be yourself. And wait until someone who accepts you for who you truly are comes along. And for some extremely, remarkably, impossibly lucky individuals this advice works.

    The rest of us have to make compromises. And mistakes. So many mistakes.

    So honestly, my advice to you is just throw caution to the wind and go apeshit. Be a little reckless. Get a little drunk. Do things that don't necessarily seem smart. Be willing to hurt some feelings. Be willing to get your feelings hurt. Most people got all this messiness out of their system and learned how to socialize with the opposite sex in their teens. You'll just have to act a bit like a teenager in your 20's. It sucks, but you'll be happier once its over and done.

    And yeah, maybe tell a few lies of omission. I had a female friend of mine who kept complaining about how pathetic a coworker of hers sounded. He was in his 20's and still a virgin, and he was losing his mind about the fact that no woman wanted anything to do with him because of it. But he couldn't do anything about it until a woman was willing to give him the time of day. I had the same problem in my early 20's. At the end of the day I just went for low hanging fruit and didn't mention that I was still a virgin and poof, no more virginity. And some experience and confidence to build off of! And of course, my friend couldn't relate. Because she lost her's in her teens, at a roughly socially appropriate time. And she's used to being the pursued, not the pursuer. She is the rejector, not the rejected.

    So yeah, I guess there is all that.

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    LanchesterLanchester Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    robbeh wrote: »
    Karrmer wrote: »
    I think it's important to acknowledge the fact that you seem pretty clearly a little narcissistic and pessimistic. You come across as the usual type that thinks they're far more intelligent and deep than most of their peers, and any male that goes to a bar, has some drinks, and takes a lady home must be some "bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused."

    Does anyone expect me to respond to this?

    I would at least consider that he might be right. If he's getting that impression (and me too) just from a single post on a message board that you made, I'd say that those elements of personality are coming over thick and strong even through text. I can't even imagine how your apparent superiority complex comes across when dealing with others in person.

    Hell, he brought that subject up in (what I feel to be) a fairly polite and reasonable way. Your unnecessarily rude response only further sends across that impression.

    Rather than dismissing it, I would think about things carefully. It is VERY easy to think yourself more intelligent than other people, especially when you are, but people don't like it when you act that way and it is very easy to unconsciously act that way around people who you feel are your intellectual inferiors.

    Completely agree. There's a difference between cocky and confident...and it can be as little as how you put something. For example, in your OP you used "I'm physically impressive" and "In good shape". I literally rolled my eyes when I read the physically impressive bit

    Experience is the only thing you need and IMO, is the only thing that will make you start feeling less nervous and yourself when you out with someone.

    Be yourself and be open and honest when you're out with someone. And by that I mean, if you're feeling nervous or reserved, there is nothing wrong with saying that to them!!! Like Ceres and others have said, they are people too, and not only will they fully understand, but probably help explain any awkward or uncomfortable feelings in the conversations.

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    HewnHewn Registered User regular
    This screams, "Nice guys like me finish last cause women just want dumb bros who treat them like prey!" Which is a total lie. Let's just wipe out that attitude right now and we can move on to more constructive uses of your energy.

    You're going to have to get over your insecurities. You hide these insecurities by saying "people think I get laid" but the reality is, you're not getting picked. These women you target? You said they are attractive. Ok. They pick somebody else. They don't like the goods you're offering.

    And that's okay! You've fessed up to avoiding socialization. Well, bingo. Attractive and balanced young women? The vast majority of them like socialization. They are young. They like to do things. They want to go out, experience the world, and meet people. All very normal and healthy. Then you come along, looking like a lost puppy in social settings. Confident women don't want a puppy to train and tag along. They want a partner. An equal that pushes them.

    So what can you do? First off, drop the misunderstood introvert routine. Be open to new situations and new people. And practice being friendly, fun, and generally a nice guy to be around. Smile. Make eye contact. Have an opinion without being opinionated. All of these things take practice. But they get easier over time. And the good thing is that while you're learning, you can have a shit ton of fun. Your youth is there to try things, make mistakes, and figure yourself out.

    The next time you want to shell up, consider saying "YES!" Be open to new things, talk to new people, and you'll find yourself a magnet to the type of people that you want to attract. But you must be proactive. They won't drop into your lap while you sit alone in the library. Join clubs. Be a participant in groups, not a wallflower. Be willing to talk to a stranger with the knowledge it could end up totally awful and weird. It happens! But you learn.

    Steam: hewn
    Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
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    kaliyamakaliyama Left to find less-moderated fora Registered User regular
    I am still trying to figure out where the shame figures in. What are you ashamed of?

    fwKS7.png?1
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    robbehrobbeh Registered User regular
    edited September 2012
    kaliyama wrote: »
    I am still trying to figure out where the shame figures in. What are you ashamed of?
    I'm ashamed about the position I'm in, virgin in 20's. I'm ashamed of rejection and making mistakes, to the point that I feel like I'd rather avoid it altogether and just fly solo. I'm ashamed of being desperate and asking girls out cold, because even though i usually get a number, I think it IS creepy and I don't wanna be like that.
    Hewn wrote: »
    This screams, "Nice guys like me finish last cause women just want dumb bros who treat them like prey!" Which is a total lie. Let's just wipe out that attitude right now and we can move on to more constructive uses of your energy.

    You're going to have to get over your insecurities. You hide these insecurities by saying "people think I get laid" but the reality is, you're not getting picked. These women you target? You said they are attractive. Ok. They pick somebody else. They don't like the goods you're offering.

    And that's okay! You've fessed up to avoiding socialization. Well, bingo. Attractive and balanced young women? The vast majority of them like socialization. They are young. They like to do things. They want to go out, experience the world, and meet people. All very normal and healthy. Then you come along, looking like a lost puppy in social settings. Confident women don't want a puppy to train and tag along. They want a partner. An equal that pushes them.

    So what can you do? First off, drop the misunderstood introvert routine. Be open to new situations and new people. And practice being friendly, fun, and generally a nice guy to be around. Smile. Make eye contact. Have an opinion without being opinionated. All of these things take practice. But they get easier over time. And the good thing is that while you're learning, you can have a shit ton of fun. Your youth is there to try things, make mistakes, and figure yourself out.

    The next time you want to shell up, consider saying "YES!" Be open to new things, talk to new people, and you'll find yourself a magnet to the type of people that you want to attract. But you must be proactive. They won't drop into your lap while you sit alone in the library. Join clubs. Be a participant in groups, not a wallflower. Be willing to talk to a stranger with the knowledge it could end up totally awful and weird. It happens! But you learn.
    Haha I think you mostly got me right. To explain myself, when I made the post I had something in mind that really bothered me - this article I read earlier that day about the business/Wall Street culture of sexual aggression. It really is pervasive in business, my dad was an exec and it's a pretty overt attitude. Really frat boyish, and the impression I get is it's a lot more extreme now than with my dad's generation. BUT, I think you're right I'm way too hung up on this stuff and it's not the problem.

    Much of the reason I made this post is because even though I don't feel it sometimes, the problem is with me and not everyone else, and I want to figure out how to change and stop being a loser.

    So, advice I'm looking for: how/where to go to practice socializing and meeting people without coming off as a creep, or being desperate, or making people uncomfortable. Like you said, can't just go sit in a library and hope for the best, but I don't really have momentum to fly into new social circles, and I don't live in dorms or anything.
    Lanchester wrote: »
    Completely agree. There's a difference between cocky and confident...and it can be as little as how you put something. For example, in your OP you used "I'm physically impressive" and "In good shape." I literally rolled my eyes when I read the physically impressive bit
    Dude I'm not looking for condescension. Seriously worthless comment, you're extrapolating some significance out of something truly innocuous. Let's call a spade a spade - you don't like whatever portrait I painted, you're telling me that, and then you're spouting some generic, useless bromides to offset the blanket criticism. And that other dude's comments are so stupid I didn't think I needed to address them, but cuz people keep quoting him I'll take a sec:
    Karrmer wrote: »
    I think it's important to acknowledge the fact that you seem pretty clearly a little narcissistic and pessimistic. You come across as the usual type that thinks they're far more intelligent and deep than most of their peers, and any male that goes to a bar, has some drinks, and takes a lady home must be some "bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused."
    So, based on a deliberate description, in which I SAY, deliberately, I'm selfish and pessimistic, this guy thinks he's qualified to encapsulate the entirety of my being into "the usual type that thinks they're far more intelligent and deep than most of their peers." This guy has NO idea what I'm like, aside from the the most basic caricature I've offered. So, reflect upon the irony of that statement. He's saying I'm derivative, based on - wait for it - a derivative. I could do the same thing and say, "Wow here's a typical internet retard who makes bold judgements as to the value and nature of another person based on a tiny sampling of their online persona. He must be an ass in real life," but I know that it's hard enough to properly judge people face to face, let alone on the internet.

    Also, he seems to suggest that me being sober reflects I'm critical of others who drink, that I think "any male that goes to a bar, has some drinks, and takes a lady home must be some "bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused."" Seriously where the hell did this come from? The only explanation is my mention of sobriety. And his advice: go drink. Are you fucking kidding me??? Karrmer, I have fucking PROBLEMS with drinking. Alcoholism runs in the FAMILY. I didn't think I needed to spell it out, but I guess I was wrong. Other people don't have problems drinking, and I wish I didn't, so I could be more like other people.

    So, Lanchester, you don't like my phrasing? That's too bad. But I mention that I'm "physically impressive" because that's one of the only advantages I have. If I were some dude that's pretty ugly and out of shape, with the same social skills and personality, it's a different game.

    Example: I went to underwear party a couple days ago, something I wouldn't normally do AT ALL. Girls tell me I'm "pretty," one gives me her number without even talking to me, and she's attractive. Only reason is because I look good with my shirt off. Does it seem douchey to say that? For sure, but it actually happened and I was surprised myself.

    So if I seem like a douche, then howbout you go find another thread. Cuz you're not going to help by being one yourself.

    Now that's out of the way, I DO appreciate the feedback from most everyone in this thread.

    robbeh on
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    MulletudeMulletude Registered User regular
    Read Hewns post over and over, OP. He is giving great advice. It's hard to break out of that shell. It really does take practice. Don't feel pressured to be something you aren't. And bars are probably the worst place to try and meet girls unless you just wanna hook up with drunkies.

    So...Random stuff but wanted to encourage you!

    XBL-Dug Danger WiiU-DugDanger Steam-http://steamcommunity.com/id/DugDanger/
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    KarrmerKarrmer Registered User regular
    robbeh wrote: »
    kaliyama wrote: »
    I am still trying to figure out where the shame figures in. What are you ashamed of?
    I'm ashamed about the position I'm in, virgin in 20's. I'm ashamed of rejection and making mistakes, to the point that I feel like I'd rather avoid it altogether and just fly solo. I'm ashamed of being desperate and asking girls out cold, because even though i usually get a number, I think it IS creepy and I don't wanna be like that.
    Hewn wrote: »
    This screams, "Nice guys like me finish last cause women just want dumb bros who treat them like prey!" Which is a total lie. Let's just wipe out that attitude right now and we can move on to more constructive uses of your energy.

    You're going to have to get over your insecurities. You hide these insecurities by saying "people think I get laid" but the reality is, you're not getting picked. These women you target? You said they are attractive. Ok. They pick somebody else. They don't like the goods you're offering.

    And that's okay! You've fessed up to avoiding socialization. Well, bingo. Attractive and balanced young women? The vast majority of them like socialization. They are young. They like to do things. They want to go out, experience the world, and meet people. All very normal and healthy. Then you come along, looking like a lost puppy in social settings. Confident women don't want a puppy to train and tag along. They want a partner. An equal that pushes them.

    So what can you do? First off, drop the misunderstood introvert routine. Be open to new situations and new people. And practice being friendly, fun, and generally a nice guy to be around. Smile. Make eye contact. Have an opinion without being opinionated. All of these things take practice. But they get easier over time. And the good thing is that while you're learning, you can have a shit ton of fun. Your youth is there to try things, make mistakes, and figure yourself out.

    The next time you want to shell up, consider saying "YES!" Be open to new things, talk to new people, and you'll find yourself a magnet to the type of people that you want to attract. But you must be proactive. They won't drop into your lap while you sit alone in the library. Join clubs. Be a participant in groups, not a wallflower. Be willing to talk to a stranger with the knowledge it could end up totally awful and weird. It happens! But you learn.
    Haha I think you mostly got me right. To explain myself, when I made the post I had something in mind that really bothered me - this article I read earlier that day about the business/Wall Street culture of sexual aggression. It really is pervasive in business, my dad was an exec and it's a pretty overt attitude. Really frat boyish, and the impression I get is it's a lot more extreme now than with my dad's generation. BUT, I think you're right I'm way too hung up on this stuff and it's not the problem.

    Much of the reason I made this post is because even though I don't feel it sometimes, the problem is with me and not everyone else, and I want to figure out how to change and stop being a loser.

    So, advice I'm looking for: how/where to go to practice socializing and meeting people without coming off as a creep, or being desperate, or making people uncomfortable. Like you said, can't just go sit in a library and hope for the best, but I don't really have momentum to fly into new social circles, and I don't live in dorms or anything.
    Lanchester wrote: »
    Completely agree. There's a difference between cocky and confident...and it can be as little as how you put something. For example, in your OP you used "I'm physically impressive" and "In good shape." I literally rolled my eyes when I read the physically impressive bit
    Dude I'm not looking for condescension. Seriously worthless comment, you're extrapolating some significance out of something truly innocuous. Let's call a spade a spade - you don't like whatever portrait I painted, you're telling me that, and then you're spouting some generic, useless bromides to offset the blanket criticism. And that other dude's comments are so stupid I didn't think I needed to address them, but cuz people keep quoting him I'll take a sec:
    Karrmer wrote: »
    I think it's important to acknowledge the fact that you seem pretty clearly a little narcissistic and pessimistic. You come across as the usual type that thinks they're far more intelligent and deep than most of their peers, and any male that goes to a bar, has some drinks, and takes a lady home must be some "bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused."
    So, based on a deliberate description, in which I SAY, deliberately, I'm selfish and pessimistic, this guy thinks he's qualified to encapsulate the entirety of my being into "the usual type that thinks they're far more intelligent and deep than most of their peers." This guy has NO idea what I'm like, aside from the the most basic caricature I've offered. So, reflect upon the irony of that statement. He's saying I'm derivative, based on - wait for it - a derivative. I could do the same thing and say, "Wow here's a typical internet retard who makes bold judgements as to the value and nature of another person based on a tiny sampling of their online persona. He must be an ass in real life," but I know that it's hard enough to properly judge people face to face, let alone on the internet.

    Also, he seems to suggest that me being sober reflects I'm critical of others who drink, that I think "any male that goes to a bar, has some drinks, and takes a lady home must be some "bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused."" Seriously where the hell did this come from? The only explanation is my mention of sobriety. And his advice: go drink. Are you fucking kidding me??? Karrmer, I have fucking PROBLEMS with drinking. Alcoholism runs in the FAMILY. I didn't think I needed to spell it out, but I guess I was wrong. Other people don't have problems drinking, and I wish I didn't, so I could be more like other people.

    So, Lanchester, you don't like my phrasing? That's too bad. But I mention that I'm "physically impressive" because that's one of the only advantages I have. If I were some dude that's pretty ugly and out of shape, with the same social skills and personality, it's a different game.

    Example: I went to underwear party a couple days ago, something I wouldn't normally do AT ALL. Girls tell me I'm "pretty," one gives me her number without even talking to me, and Wshe's attractive. Only reason is because I look good with my shirt off. Does it seem douchey to say that? For sure, but it actually happened and I was surprised mys elf.

    So if I seem like a douche, then howbout you go find another thread. Cuz you're not going to help by being one yourself.

    Now that's out of the way, I DO appreciate the feedback from most everyone in this thread.

    Way to prove us right I guess? That is one of the more rude and defensive posts I've ever seen. More than one person noticed the same traits in your personality based on yourfirst post and you immediately dismiss the possibility, get defensive, and fall back into more pseudo-intellectual rantings.

    Until you're willing to really look in the mirror, you'll never grow past this issue in your life.

    Also I never suggested you drink - I actually openly stated I understand that issue as I also avoided drinking at all for a long time as my family has alcohol issues as well. Eventually I gave it a shot - on my own terms - and realized that I can have fun without some fear of turning into an alcoholic just like my parents. It doesn't have to be that way, but I do think being open to new experiences (when or if you ever feel comfortable with it) may be a good idea. The things your family have done in their life don't automatically make that your future.

    If you had drinking issues already yourself, this obviously isn't relevant.

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    MulletudeMulletude Registered User regular
    Yeah...But the odds of someone becoming an alcoholic when their parent(s) are alcoholics is very high. Even higher for men than women.

    So maybe just drop that whole point since he already says he doesn't drink.

    XBL-Dug Danger WiiU-DugDanger Steam-http://steamcommunity.com/id/DugDanger/
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    ceresceres When the last moon is cast over the last star of morning And the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Karrmer, shut up and find another thread. This is your only warning.

    And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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    honkymcgoohonkymcgoo Registered User regular
    Personally I find that now that I'm approaching 30 and the bar/club scene is a bit less appealing, the best place to meet people is at shows. You've already got at least one topic to talk about since you're both (presumably) there to see a band you both enjoy. People drink but it's not the same drinking environment as a bar so you're more likely to run into moderate, social or non drinkers. And the time that shows usually happens lends itself to an easy invitation to hang out afterward, as you can just say "Hey, I was gonna go grab a late night slice. Wanna come with?" or something similar. It's usually simple enough to talk at least a little bit during each bands set, and the time between bands is perfect for talking. As an added bonus to someone who may be looking to expand their social circle, if you go to enough shows you start to see the same people out at them and become friends capable of hanging out outside of shows, and they will introduce you to more people and so on and so on. Obviously your mileage may vary, but that's my preferred activity.

    I didn't even know what the fuck and avitar was until about 5 minutes ago.
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    kaliyamakaliyama Left to find less-moderated fora Registered User regular
    edited September 2012
    Well, whether or not Karrmer(except on the drinking thing, given that you have said that you have had drinking problems yourself) and Hewn and Dhalphir and Esh are right , whatever personality traits are causing you to flame your interlocutors on this thread are likely leading to some of your problems with women and socializaton. Giving advice on a message board is a lot like reading an epistolary novel - we as readers only know what you are telling us, and unless you are omniscient you are an unreliable narrator.

    nothing to be ashamed of w/r/t the virginity thing. i've dated several very attractive men + women who were virgins into their mid twenties because things didn't gel for them sooner. i've also seen it quite effectively used as a pick up line, women often think it is cute, and as long as you are a generous lover and eager student it won't bother any body.

    Taking your posts at face value:
    1) you should seek out nerdier women who are more like you on the axes of being "nervous, or reserved, or not aggressive" or are fine being the assertive one in the relationship. the woman who approached you might be good for that.

    Parsing your posts for what they say about your personality, they tell me that:

    1) you should get therapy, because the combination of your described personality traits and the sentence "I'm critical of others and myself, and I'm a bit self-centered. But I'm also not some bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused.” Suggests you have combined crippling insecurities with a superiority complex. That’s quite common and nothing to be ashamed of, but you need to unravel some of those issues if you want to be happy.

    2) That you are the type to needlessly argue about small points in the fashion of philosophy majors or a bunch of nerds sitting around playing warhammer. that's great fun, I do it for a living, but it is almost always a preserve of male social interaction amongst friends and will turn most women off.

    3) That you think at least some of women you meet are stupid sluts who engage in some bestial rutting game with the alpha bros who “treat women as prey,” or are passive victims – “prey” again. I don’t think either are healthy attittudes about women, and while that attitude exists it is not coextensive with traditional male confidence. I recommend seeking and asking out girls who are smarter - this often means compromising in some sense with looks. Try it, it can be more rewarding than you think.

    If this is all wrong, apologies, but every time people raise points like this you respond with bristling hostility and, most tellingly, don’t correct their impressions of you. So that leaves nothing for people to work with except people stating their opinions from what you have told them, and then your response telling them they're wrong without correcting their impressions. That is why people have used the words “pedantic” and “defensive”, because it is not the usual behavior one sees for somebody who is genuinely introspective and wants to change themselves. If you don’t feel like you owe strangers on the internet more of an explanation, that’s fine, but you’re not going to get good advice – Garbage In, Garbage Out. An actual flesh and blood therapist would be doing their best to get around the unreliable narrator question with good conversation, but it’s a lot easier to do when you are in the same room with somebody than in an internet forum. That means this process relies on your good faith.

    kaliyama on
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