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Women, Shame, and Desire
robbeh
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
How I perceive myself is this: I'm on a trajectory toward bitterness, unfulfilled desire, and resignation. There's this sense in my mind that I'm losing something, like my potential is swiftly unraveling. I feel like I am unable to change my personality to be more fun and desirable, less burdened and sad. I'm looking for inspiration and hope that I'm wrong.
I'm in my 20's and I've never had a serious relationship, or been laid. I don't think anyone would assume that based on looking at me - it just hasn't happened. It's infrequent that I work up the courage to ask out a pretty girl, and they're the only kind of girl I find myself attracted to. Usually when I ask the response is good - only been few times I didn't get a girls number when I asked - but after that things don't go forward because I'm extremely nervous, or reserved, or not aggressive, or our personalities and just really different. Honestly (I think) most girls take a look at me and think I'm some alpha male and when they get to know me I'm really sensitive, and it's a huge turn off. I don't want to misrepresent myself as some golden boy either, cuz I'm not. I'm critical of others and myself, and I'm a bit self-centered. But I'm also not some bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused. That mentality really disturbs me.
So I don't know what to do. I've avoided socialization like the plague cuz, even though I'm physically impressive, I'm shy as hell and very introverted and I get very nervous in crowds. I got enough guts to ask girls out cold and it usually works, but it seems a bit creepy and weird and a bit humiliating.
Some stuff about me:
In good shape
Pretty well read
Addicted to politics
Do a little boxing
Used to be pilot
In school
Some artistic talent and taste
Don't drink, etc.
Coming out of a very rough couple of years, feel a bit burdened still
Sorry for being melodramatic!
Just trying to accurately convey my thoughts.
I'm in my 20's and I've never had a serious relationship, or been laid. I don't think anyone would assume that based on looking at me - it just hasn't happened. It's infrequent that I work up the courage to ask out a pretty girl, and they're the only kind of girl I find myself attracted to. Usually when I ask the response is good - only been few times I didn't get a girls number when I asked - but after that things don't go forward because I'm extremely nervous, or reserved, or not aggressive, or our personalities and just really different. Honestly (I think) most girls take a look at me and think I'm some alpha male and when they get to know me I'm really sensitive, and it's a huge turn off. I don't want to misrepresent myself as some golden boy either, cuz I'm not. I'm critical of others and myself, and I'm a bit self-centered. But I'm also not some bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused. That mentality really disturbs me.
So I don't know what to do. I've avoided socialization like the plague cuz, even though I'm physically impressive, I'm shy as hell and very introverted and I get very nervous in crowds. I got enough guts to ask girls out cold and it usually works, but it seems a bit creepy and weird and a bit humiliating.
Some stuff about me:
In good shape
Pretty well read
Addicted to politics
Do a little boxing
Used to be pilot
In school
Some artistic talent and taste
Don't drink, etc.
Coming out of a very rough couple of years, feel a bit burdened still
Sorry for being melodramatic!
Just trying to accurately convey my thoughts. robbeh on
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Posts
Also, "pretty" is not a personality trait. Your best bet is to take all those things you listed and look for people who like at least a few of them too. That's how relationships are made.
Also, if you find it easy to get numbers, you're probably attractive, so you've got that going for you. Where are you meeting women? The reason I ask is if you're just asking people out at clubs/bars, then you're only guaranteed to have one thing in common; you both happen to be at the same club or bar. You're basically gambling that you're both looking for the same thing.
If you want to meet someone you'll have more in common with, try meeting people in different places. If you're passionate about videogames, or cooking, attend a convention or take a cooking class. Or make an online dating profile. We've got a thread in Debate & Discourse that'll help you set up a profile.
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/149703/internet-dating-who-is-your-favorite-duck-and-other-dating-questions#latest
if you just get yourself out there more, play it cool (don't eye F or corner trap-talk ANY girl), they'll notice you. because if you're not all on them, they'll be more comfortable accepting you as an individual in the social atmosphere. girls want to know they can have two things from a guy when they meet him. that they won't be judged or have over critical comments made. and that they can have fun with/be fun with/ and get fun from this person. fun being very vague and relative to the girl/group. fun to a group of gamer girls might not be the same type of fun a group of club going girls would enjoy. that's where just hanging out comes into play. you get to know people, what they're about and what they like.
bottom line: before you can be anyone else's significant other, you have to be, make and feel significant on your own.
Not to be crass, but I think your problem could be that you don't drink. Pretty much friendship or relationship I've had past highschool has began with copious amounts of alcohol consumption. You don't have to be a raging alcoholic like me, but being open-minded and having a few pints at a nice place may open up some real live social networking for you. You like politics? Drinking and politics mix together great... might cause a few fist fights from time to time, but if you seek out places with like-minded folk, the potential is great.. maybe even get into some local projects or other things you may discover are productive, not just meeting women.
Also, he was a 32-year-old virgin who'd never had a real relationship when we met, and I really gave no shits about that because he was a kind, wonderful, generous man. He does mention from time to time that he was discriminated against on the dating front once in a while because of that, but the right person really won't mind.
True, but I didn't say that drinking should be done to become more confident, I'm saying it's fun and much of the scene for somebody in their 20's (as I am) will be revolved around some level of drinking. Doesn't have to be just a local pub. Open mics, college parties, shows, even political meetings. I've gone to coffee houses that sell booze. You don't have to drink at all, I'm just saying it's an option that opens up a lot of doors to the outside world.
The most irritating thing in the world is being sober around a bunch of drunk people. Not fun. The OP had a little caveat after "Don't Drink" earlier, so I think there's some good reason he doesn't now and shouldn't start again.
To both the OP and PM: women aren't a different species, we're not a "them" to be classified and generalized--we're people, individuals with personalities and different likes/dislikes
haha, so right. That's why I join in with the boisterous, drunken merry-making. Not for everyone, I guess. Can always try dating sites to narrow down his searches. Politics can join people together... Say you're vegan.. there's like maybe 0.5% of the population of females who is vegan, and they would rather date other vegans. Gotta make sacrifices
'cause that is pretty awful advice.
Gonna have to agree with Fyn here. Any relationship that begins with dishonesty will usually end poorly. Once you let the lies in, they begin to slowly poison everything.
Stop thinking that the idea of just having a good time with a woman without some sort of up front long term super deep intense relationship is somehow some awful thing. Just relax and enjoy yourself and allow yourself to do whatever feels natural to you in the situation. Being a human being doesn't make you terrible, nor does allowing yourself to have a drink, though I can understand that idea as I also abstained from drinking for a long time... but now that I enjoy some drinks with my friends I have a lot more fun
Does anyone expect me to respond to this?
Anyway, had a good day - got out and tried to mingle. Got a number, we'll see how things go.
Appreciate it
Indeed
I would at least consider that he might be right. If he's getting that impression (and me too) just from a single post on a message board that you made, I'd say that those elements of personality are coming over thick and strong even through text. I can't even imagine how your apparent superiority complex comes across when dealing with others in person.
Hell, he brought that subject up in (what I feel to be) a fairly polite and reasonable way. Your unnecessarily rude response only further sends across that impression.
Rather than dismissing it, I would think about things carefully. It is VERY easy to think yourself more intelligent than other people, especially when you are, but people don't like it when you act that way and it is very easy to unconsciously act that way around people who you feel are your intellectual inferiors.
No, I was hoping the facetiousness of the fake profile on a dating service was implied. Sorry to mislead, I guess it didn't come off as I intended. I stick to my original advice... get some drinks and go meet people. and yes, be yourself.
Try not to take criticism of the way you're coming off too personally. Seriously think about it; go through your post and think to yourself "If I knew nothing about me, how would this sound?" I didn't get narcissist, but I did get a bit of the 'girls are an alien race' vibe. Check your thinking. Make sure you really aren't thinking of females as 'other'. If you think of yourself as separate, then separate you shall stay. I don't think anyone means any offense, although Karrmer's always kind of an unknown in that respect. :P
Also, seriously, if you're not into drinking, there's no reason to do it, and don't listen to anyone who tells you that you have to in order to meet people or socialize. There are many many many many many things young 20-somethings get up to that don't involve booze and/or don't require you to drink. There's no reason to think you're missing out just because you order a coke at that get-together instead of a beer.
This for the love of god, treating half of the population as a monolithic group is poisonous
Also being shy or introverted is really not a big deal as long as it isn't stopping you from being around other people. Doesn't matter what the event is as long as you can stand to be around strangers and hold a conversation when engaged (you dont even have to initiate, just be responsive) you'll be fine
Unless you're in a context that is specifically about finding somebody to date you really need to not go in with any expectations other than "gonna have a good time and meet some people and maybe expand my circle of friends"
-Alcohol is not necesary
-Hang out more
-Dont be pedantic
-You are young and dont really need to rush to anything
-Dont engage with high expectations of a long relationship, let things flow organically
Now, you dont have to go looking for "pretty" girls, as you stated before, and love and sex are two separate things completely, any of those two things are a base for diferent kinds of relationships. Dont understimate the relationship based on sex and friendship, they may not last, but since you are a cherry boy, you shouldnt even DREAM of going out there and finding your soulmate in your first date. Even if you did, you will fuck it up eventually, because that is how we learn things.
You dont need to be a "bro" that manipulates or looks down on women, women are too, looking for easy relations, where they can relax and have sex comfortably, like many others said, women are no diferent from men, they dont necesarily care for unicorns and prince charming, and living happily ever after with a guy they met at a bar.
My only real advice is, whatever you choose to do, always make sure the situation is clear for both parties, as in, make sure that you and her know what to expect from the other. (asuming all the previous advise from other forumers will get you within reach of a female species)
Feel free to do some introspection when you're by yourself. When you're out looking for a relationship, your job is not to second guess what you are doing or saying (and it sounds like you might be doing that, as a fellow shy guy). Your job is to determine if the person you're talking to is someone you like and would like to know better, and to give that other person a good idea of who you are so that they can do the same.
Connecting with another human being doesn't come naturally to me, so I know this sounds hard, but it really isn't. If you pay attention to what the other person is saying, talk about things that you are interested in, are interested in what they are saying... these things will probably be obvious to her. If, however, you are second guessing what you said 5 minutes ago, trying not to look her right in the eye for too long because you don't want to be creepy etc... it will be obvious that you aren't all there, though often the assumption will be this is because you aren't into her.
Paying attention to her instead of yourself will have the additional benefit of warning you if this is not someone you would want to spend time with. And although I realize that this is not your current problem, it very easily can become a very large one.
Hope that helps!
I mean some of its great advice in theory. Be open minded. Don't think of women as "others". Be yourself. And wait until someone who accepts you for who you truly are comes along. And for some extremely, remarkably, impossibly lucky individuals this advice works.
The rest of us have to make compromises. And mistakes. So many mistakes.
So honestly, my advice to you is just throw caution to the wind and go apeshit. Be a little reckless. Get a little drunk. Do things that don't necessarily seem smart. Be willing to hurt some feelings. Be willing to get your feelings hurt. Most people got all this messiness out of their system and learned how to socialize with the opposite sex in their teens. You'll just have to act a bit like a teenager in your 20's. It sucks, but you'll be happier once its over and done.
And yeah, maybe tell a few lies of omission. I had a female friend of mine who kept complaining about how pathetic a coworker of hers sounded. He was in his 20's and still a virgin, and he was losing his mind about the fact that no woman wanted anything to do with him because of it. But he couldn't do anything about it until a woman was willing to give him the time of day. I had the same problem in my early 20's. At the end of the day I just went for low hanging fruit and didn't mention that I was still a virgin and poof, no more virginity. And some experience and confidence to build off of! And of course, my friend couldn't relate. Because she lost her's in her teens, at a roughly socially appropriate time. And she's used to being the pursued, not the pursuer. She is the rejector, not the rejected.
So yeah, I guess there is all that.
Completely agree. There's a difference between cocky and confident...and it can be as little as how you put something. For example, in your OP you used "I'm physically impressive" and "In good shape". I literally rolled my eyes when I read the physically impressive bit
Experience is the only thing you need and IMO, is the only thing that will make you start feeling less nervous and yourself when you out with someone.
Be yourself and be open and honest when you're out with someone. And by that I mean, if you're feeling nervous or reserved, there is nothing wrong with saying that to them!!! Like Ceres and others have said, they are people too, and not only will they fully understand, but probably help explain any awkward or uncomfortable feelings in the conversations.
You're going to have to get over your insecurities. You hide these insecurities by saying "people think I get laid" but the reality is, you're not getting picked. These women you target? You said they are attractive. Ok. They pick somebody else. They don't like the goods you're offering.
And that's okay! You've fessed up to avoiding socialization. Well, bingo. Attractive and balanced young women? The vast majority of them like socialization. They are young. They like to do things. They want to go out, experience the world, and meet people. All very normal and healthy. Then you come along, looking like a lost puppy in social settings. Confident women don't want a puppy to train and tag along. They want a partner. An equal that pushes them.
So what can you do? First off, drop the misunderstood introvert routine. Be open to new situations and new people. And practice being friendly, fun, and generally a nice guy to be around. Smile. Make eye contact. Have an opinion without being opinionated. All of these things take practice. But they get easier over time. And the good thing is that while you're learning, you can have a shit ton of fun. Your youth is there to try things, make mistakes, and figure yourself out.
The next time you want to shell up, consider saying "YES!" Be open to new things, talk to new people, and you'll find yourself a magnet to the type of people that you want to attract. But you must be proactive. They won't drop into your lap while you sit alone in the library. Join clubs. Be a participant in groups, not a wallflower. Be willing to talk to a stranger with the knowledge it could end up totally awful and weird. It happens! But you learn.
Warframe: TheBaconDwarf
Much of the reason I made this post is because even though I don't feel it sometimes, the problem is with me and not everyone else, and I want to figure out how to change and stop being a loser.
So, advice I'm looking for: how/where to go to practice socializing and meeting people without coming off as a creep, or being desperate, or making people uncomfortable. Like you said, can't just go sit in a library and hope for the best, but I don't really have momentum to fly into new social circles, and I don't live in dorms or anything.
Dude I'm not looking for condescension. Seriously worthless comment, you're extrapolating some significance out of something truly innocuous. Let's call a spade a spade - you don't like whatever portrait I painted, you're telling me that, and then you're spouting some generic, useless bromides to offset the blanket criticism. And that other dude's comments are so stupid I didn't think I needed to address them, but cuz people keep quoting him I'll take a sec: So, based on a deliberate description, in which I SAY, deliberately, I'm selfish and pessimistic, this guy thinks he's qualified to encapsulate the entirety of my being into "the usual type that thinks they're far more intelligent and deep than most of their peers." This guy has NO idea what I'm like, aside from the the most basic caricature I've offered. So, reflect upon the irony of that statement. He's saying I'm derivative, based on - wait for it - a derivative. I could do the same thing and say, "Wow here's a typical internet retard who makes bold judgements as to the value and nature of another person based on a tiny sampling of their online persona. He must be an ass in real life," but I know that it's hard enough to properly judge people face to face, let alone on the internet.
Also, he seems to suggest that me being sober reflects I'm critical of others who drink, that I think "any male that goes to a bar, has some drinks, and takes a lady home must be some "bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused."" Seriously where the hell did this come from? The only explanation is my mention of sobriety. And his advice: go drink. Are you fucking kidding me??? Karrmer, I have fucking PROBLEMS with drinking. Alcoholism runs in the FAMILY. I didn't think I needed to spell it out, but I guess I was wrong. Other people don't have problems drinking, and I wish I didn't, so I could be more like other people.
So, Lanchester, you don't like my phrasing? That's too bad. But I mention that I'm "physically impressive" because that's one of the only advantages I have. If I were some dude that's pretty ugly and out of shape, with the same social skills and personality, it's a different game.
Example: I went to underwear party a couple days ago, something I wouldn't normally do AT ALL. Girls tell me I'm "pretty," one gives me her number without even talking to me, and she's attractive. Only reason is because I look good with my shirt off. Does it seem douchey to say that? For sure, but it actually happened and I was surprised myself.
So if I seem like a douche, then howbout you go find another thread. Cuz you're not going to help by being one yourself.
Now that's out of the way, I DO appreciate the feedback from most everyone in this thread.
So...Random stuff but wanted to encourage you!
Way to prove us right I guess? That is one of the more rude and defensive posts I've ever seen. More than one person noticed the same traits in your personality based on yourfirst post and you immediately dismiss the possibility, get defensive, and fall back into more pseudo-intellectual rantings.
Until you're willing to really look in the mirror, you'll never grow past this issue in your life.
Also I never suggested you drink - I actually openly stated I understand that issue as I also avoided drinking at all for a long time as my family has alcohol issues as well. Eventually I gave it a shot - on my own terms - and realized that I can have fun without some fear of turning into an alcoholic just like my parents. It doesn't have to be that way, but I do think being open to new experiences (when or if you ever feel comfortable with it) may be a good idea. The things your family have done in their life don't automatically make that your future.
If you had drinking issues already yourself, this obviously isn't relevant.
So maybe just drop that whole point since he already says he doesn't drink.
nothing to be ashamed of w/r/t the virginity thing. i've dated several very attractive men + women who were virgins into their mid twenties because things didn't gel for them sooner. i've also seen it quite effectively used as a pick up line, women often think it is cute, and as long as you are a generous lover and eager student it won't bother any body.
Taking your posts at face value:
1) you should seek out nerdier women who are more like you on the axes of being "nervous, or reserved, or not aggressive" or are fine being the assertive one in the relationship. the woman who approached you might be good for that.
Parsing your posts for what they say about your personality, they tell me that:
1) you should get therapy, because the combination of your described personality traits and the sentence "I'm critical of others and myself, and I'm a bit self-centered. But I'm also not some bro who views women with contempt, like they're prey and objects to be abused.” Suggests you have combined crippling insecurities with a superiority complex. That’s quite common and nothing to be ashamed of, but you need to unravel some of those issues if you want to be happy.
2) That you are the type to needlessly argue about small points in the fashion of philosophy majors or a bunch of nerds sitting around playing warhammer. that's great fun, I do it for a living, but it is almost always a preserve of male social interaction amongst friends and will turn most women off.
3) That you think at least some of women you meet are stupid sluts who engage in some bestial rutting game with the alpha bros who “treat women as prey,” or are passive victims – “prey” again. I don’t think either are healthy attittudes about women, and while that attitude exists it is not coextensive with traditional male confidence. I recommend seeking and asking out girls who are smarter - this often means compromising in some sense with looks. Try it, it can be more rewarding than you think.
If this is all wrong, apologies, but every time people raise points like this you respond with bristling hostility and, most tellingly, don’t correct their impressions of you. So that leaves nothing for people to work with except people stating their opinions from what you have told them, and then your response telling them they're wrong without correcting their impressions. That is why people have used the words “pedantic” and “defensive”, because it is not the usual behavior one sees for somebody who is genuinely introspective and wants to change themselves. If you don’t feel like you owe strangers on the internet more of an explanation, that’s fine, but you’re not going to get good advice – Garbage In, Garbage Out. An actual flesh and blood therapist would be doing their best to get around the unreliable narrator question with good conversation, but it’s a lot easier to do when you are in the same room with somebody than in an internet forum. That means this process relies on your good faith.