I love the dynamic events, I just don't like the, well, the dynamic portion of them. "You never know when they'll start! It's fresh!" is fine, until you finish a zone underleveled because you only ever got 2 events that entire time and the curve is designed with events in mind.
I wish I could just enter an area and push a big red MAKE EVENTS GO button if there are none going on.
definitely, you miss a lot of content unfortunately unless the event gods are smiling on you. I've been to zones where almost no events popped at all and it felt like I missed a lot of the experience
I have stared into Satan's asshole, and it fucking winked at me.
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CyrondinI bring the sick beats on you, brotherChicago, ILRegistered Userregular
and about GW2 having a LFD system, i think it really is the game just needed to launch before the system can come out, SWTOR issue is that the devs was really gun-ho about "communaty" by keeping everything on the same server.
in a game with overflow and guesting in the works, i think we will see a LFD in about a year. i rather see dungens be balanced out better before a LFD system and it seem to be working on now.
This isn't me bashing. I think this is just the result of MMO-burnout that most of us still have. However, I think I'm mostly finished with GW2 until more content releases. Granted, I think I would've gotten about the same playtime out of Pandaland.
I've found there's little to do in GW2 once you're at cap unless you really just want to do WvW or sPvP all the time. That's okay with me since it's not a sub game and you can just take a break until the next expansion/DLC happens without worrying about monies. But it does not feel like a game I personally can play for a very long time. I also think the Dynamic Event system gets pretty dull throughout leveling a lot of the time, mostly because most of the events are simply not interesting or get zerged instantly
I do look forward to what Arenanet does with the game in the future though
They need to scale better from 1 player to some larger group of players.
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CyrondinI bring the sick beats on you, brotherChicago, ILRegistered Userregular
also people seem to forget a big key different with GW2 and WOW when it come for looking for groups, and it the trinity, the only reason it taken hours in trade looking for a run in mana tombs is finding a healer and tank. yes i do know there are ways in GW2 where you can focus on healing others and also being a tank, but it not as needed as it is in wow. sure it may be unwise to run with 5 glass cannon elementists but you can.
and please don't bring up the random videos in youtube where 5 rouges ran though a heroic at the end of a x-packs life, that is possable but it not what 98% of people run stuff do.
also there is a ton of stuff to do in the world in GW2 like exploring, karma grind that a LFD may not do what it did in wow. in GW2 everything from the AH to even guilds are cross relam. i don't see why a LFG system in dungens would be the end.
I would have to say that GW2 is the superior game right now. WoW is still a good game, or else it would not have survived this long. But at this time, the gameplay of WoW really shows its age. WoW has just passed its prime. GW2, has been a highly enjoyable experience the entire time I have been playing it.
I think the core of GW2 is great. But if you dont like PVP then you will hate being 80 in GW2 if you dont like limited grinds with very little RoI.
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CyrondinI bring the sick beats on you, brotherChicago, ILRegistered Userregular
but i feel the core changes to GW2 PvE makes things better, and i also played wow since launch and i about burned out since ICC, i played a bit of cata at first but only for a short time. and then i came back for a bit after i beat TOR and i only tronsmong my tier 6 and did dragon soul one time.
also about dragon soul holy shit the writing in there was bad, there was one line that made me laugh, GW2 can be bad but nothing will top alexandra shoting at deathwing "he gone completely mad".
after the hundered of years of GENOSIDE, and fucking up the planet, he was on the level, but nope final fight, he went chocho.
IMHO ANet could learn a thing or two about end game PvE from the master. GW2 has superior PVP but the PVE is no comparison.
I'm curious what you mean by this. Are you talking about tier ladders, or just dungeon design?
i honestly like to know. since there are quite a few who think blizzerd have pretty mush gone downhill for a few years. and not just talking about wow.
As someone who got to level 80 in GW2, got 100% zone completion, 2 full sets of exotic gear, did all the dungeons in explorable and story...I'm having a hard time thinking of a PvE experience that was exciting and challenging.
The world event bosses are basically giant loot pinatas (and shitty loot at that). Almost all the dungeon boss mechanics are 1) This boss has a shitload of health 2) This boss will do an attack that one-shots you probably. This means the dungeon fights are just 10 minute kite & spank snoozefests. If you can see the attacks coming through all the particles effects flying around on screen, then you just dodge it. If you get one-shot, doesn't really matter as long as someone on the team is alive to rez you.
Like, there's a difference between something that's hard and something that's challenging. Staring at a wall for 2 hours is hard because it's so boring, but I wouldn't call it challenging. Spamming skills on a boss for 10 minutes while occasionally dodging makes it hard to not fall asleep, but it's not challenging. A few of the bosses have different mechanics, like the HotW boss that alternates between PBAoE and AoE in a ring around him so you switch between ranged and close-range, but those are fairly rudimentary and not that fun.
I don't want to make it seems like all the dungeons are really easy. Some of the paths are hard. For example, GL is probably the hardest boss in the game, and few PuGs can beat him (he's also one of the very few bosses that has multiple phases). But the "hard" mechanics are: He does a projectile that one-shots you, he does an AoE that one-shots you, and he does a charge attack that one-shots you. It's basically just a gear/build/party composition/reflex check, and part of what makes it "hard" is that his projectile attack is extremely difficult to make out among all the particle effect chaos.
Then on top of that I have to wait 10+ minutes in town/outside the dungeon spamming chat for a party because there's no functional LFG tool.
On the issue of the personal story: it's not really personal at all (your choices don't matter), and the writing/characters are pretty bad.
Meister on
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CyrondinI bring the sick beats on you, brotherChicago, ILRegistered Userregular
edited October 2012
i still want to know why this thread is not locked. we know it just be a shitstorm since it posted but mods are sturing the storm. i am starting to think rous is a blizzerd shill.
no i am for real, rous shouldn't be mods if he is ok with this thread, this is not gamefaqs. this type of thread would of been locked if it was about any other subject? GW2 VS SWTOR, it would be locked.
i meen for real we are better then to have a "what is better" thread.
i still want to know why this thread is not locked. we know it just be a shitstorm since it posted but mods are sturing the storm. i am starting to think rous is a blizzerd shill.
no i am for real, rous shouldn't be mods if he is ok with this thread, this is not gamefaqs. this type of thread would of been locked if it was about any other subject? GW2 VS SWTOR, it would be locked.
i meen for real we are better then to have a "what is better" thread.
?
so far seemed like a reasonable discussion with people presenting arguments in support of both sides
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
i still want to know why this thread is not locked. we know it just be a shitstorm since it posted but mods are sturing the storm. i am starting to think rous is a blizzerd shill.
no i am for real, rous shouldn't be mods if he is ok with this thread, this is not gamefaqs. this type of thread would of been locked if it was about any other subject? GW2 VS SWTOR, it would be locked.
i meen for real we are better then to have a "what is better" thread.
remember when you got banned for calling people the n-word and homosexuals?
because someone made fun of your quarterback?
here's an idea: leave the thread and don't come back if you don't want to take part in it's discussion.
i still want to know why this thread is not locked. we know it just be a shitstorm since it posted but mods are sturing the storm. i am starting to think rous is a blizzerd shill.
no i am for real, rous shouldn't be mods if he is ok with this thread, this is not gamefaqs. this type of thread would of been locked if it was about any other subject? GW2 VS SWTOR, it would be locked.
i meen for real we are better then to have a "what is better" thread.
Look, while I definitely think this topic is against the spirit if not the rules of the forums (especially as it seems likely to be a magnet for the "Getting mad about videogames" thing) I don't think it's necessary to get upset about this or to start calling names.
Back to the topic at hand. While I do think the games are very different I feel that the gameplay of WoW shows its age significantly. However this does not mean that GW2 is a better game, nor is it worse. It's important to understand that for all their flaws and greatness, neither is a perfect game.
For me, it comes back to story.
For all GW2's good storyline missions and dynamic approach to the quest and event systems, the world lacks a lot of the inclusiveness that draws you in.
The game has an expansive and extensive background but trying to find it is like finding out the past in Skyrim, you have to go out of your way to track down all the tidbits.
For all Warcraft's great inclusiveness and stories, Blizzard is reaching inside and hollowing out the entire Warcraft universe to make new content. Suddenly every single name in the stories and background of the game are not only visible, but interact-able, watchable, and beatable. The Warcraft universe is hollowing out from the inside as Blizzard is trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel to bring new content to the fore. Which is why what was only an in-joke only years before is suddenly a reality.
IMHO ANet could learn a thing or two about end game PvE from the master. GW2 has superior PVP but the PVE is no comparison.
I'm curious what you mean by this. Are you talking about tier ladders, or just dungeon design?
I am talking about everything PVE in GW2. It is horrible once you get past the very enjoyable leveling. At 80 once I 100% the 60+ zones and got crafting up there wasnt anything to do. I could grind world events endlessly for karma to get some of those cool looking sets, or I could grind horrible dungeons for some of those cooler looking sets, or... well that is pretty much it. I had great fun 1-fresh 80 but that was it.
I gotta say: personally I tend to enjoy the explorable mode dungeons. I think people are generally too hard on them. I think there are two specific problems: first is that the first story mode (ascalon catacombs) is one of the harder ones, and it's the first one most people do which sets a bad tone for the rest. Second is that many of the bosses are just too HP-spongy, which can make them tedious.
However, aside from those two problems, which are both fixable (especially the HP one) I think overall the dungeons are pretty good. I've had fun running them, and this is from a guy who's mostly there for the WvW.
Yeah, I enjoy the dungeons a lot too. I see them more as 5 man raid difficulty encounters. And the outdoor DEs as the typical group face-rolls.
Someone above mentioned the personal story not being great. Overall I'd agree, there are parts that are very good, but I didn't ever feel pushed along into a storyline I really wanted to follow the way I did in nightfall, for example. So I reallllly hope they release an expansion with a similar level of story quality.
I enjoyed opening portals and doing experiments with Zojja and eventually fighting an evil dimension-travelling version of myself who had taken over all of Tyria in another alternate-universe in my Asuras storyline 8-)
Levelling 1 to 80 in GW2 was phenomenally fun, and I did it twice. Then I ran all the explorable mode dungeons, and realized they just weren't very fun design. My friends and I just had no desire to keep repeating them. Then I realized I wasn't going to work on a legendary. This leaves only PvP as something I will log in to GW2 to do. As Jubal said, the PvP is great. WvW is fun as hell, and SPvP is fun too if you want that smaller scale experience. But the PvE end game is just not that good. I'm sure they'll improve it over time.
I think the core of GW2 is great. But if you dont like PVP then you will hate being 80 in GW2 if you dont like limited grinds with very little RoI.
I agree, WUVWUV is great fun and my personal endgame, and I like some of the stuff about the dungeons, but WoW has it in spades over GW2 in terms of dungeon design
Then again going forward I think that's going to be a big priority of Arenanet. I'd like to see some unique runes/sigils and shit out of dungeons too, it's undeniable that the carrot largely isn't there (I mean, you can only motivate most people for so long with new armor skins). I think Arenanet is capable of having unique statted dungeon items and whatnot without engaging in power creep, you just have to use incomparables like "Gets you out of cc" and "whenever your character /dances you gain might" or something
With regards to GW2; I'm ok with pvp being the end game, especially if it's fun. I look at the dungeons as a fun little extra when I want a dungeon crawl with some friends who don't mind wiping a million times and goofing off. I think I prefer a good, long dungeon crawl over running them a million times in quick succession.
What I really like about the leveling experience though is how free form it is. I'm not tied to a particular questing hub. With the way the quests are designed I can move out of an area and come back later if I want to without losing any progress. I don't have to follow things in a linear fashion either. If I get bored then I just move on. I'm not stuck grinding out some quest I don't feel like doing in order to get to the next in the series. I can just run around doing whatever exploring to my heart's content. It makes for a much more fluid experience which I enjoy.
I think Anet is going to need to provide a few more carrots to chase at max level to keep people interested long term though.
This is the right sort of discourse that needs to be going on, but I just need to sort if put a stake in the whole GW2 not having LFD function.
Cyrondin is as dumb as a bag of hammers, but he did make one actual point.
Yes, GW2 does not have a LFD.
No, GW2 does not need an actual dungeon finder.
Why? It's simple. As he pointed out, you have no tank, and no healer.
The real reason why the dungeon finder existed is that there were roles that no one wanted to play. Everyone wanted to do damage on thier Arms warrior, thier Ret paladin, thier Cat druid, Their 75 SAM/THF, their White Lion, their Gladiator. Thats just how it is. The minority who wanted to actually play a tank, or a healer got groups super quick did everything they needed to do, and either went to an alt or burned out. That made LFG necessary, because of the small pool of players wanting to play those roles. It also affected player mindstates, and nade people think " Hey, instead if waiting 45 minutes for a DPS, maybe i should get some tank gear and instaque.
Overall, LFG is fucking BRILLIANT for WoW, for SWTOR, for Aion. Its damn near necessary.
But not for GW2.
Why?
EVERY SINGLE DUNGEON CAN BE COMPLETED BY ANY CLASS MAKE UP, FOREVER.
Its not that there is just the absence of the Trinity, although that helps.
Its that ther is NO CLASS, no build, that is absolutley necessary. 5 warriors? Get it done.4 eles and a ranger? No prob. No matter the group make up, you can kill it. So getting a group litterally consists of getting five able bodies and beating the heck out if it. No need for a Bard puller, a druid tank, a 99 rebirth wizzy, none of that shit. 5 dudes and then kill mans.
And if you cant somehow reach out to five random people in a game that has 2 million players at the moment, Then you have bigger problems then killing a dungeon boss.
And I say that having leveled from zero to 75 Samurai(with a 37 THF), alone, with an obscenly specific group makeup to be effective( Bard/Thf puller, Red mage, Black Mage, myself, Ninja tank), before my class recieved a massive buff making them actually playable. I have seen the pit of hell. Looking for a group in GW2 it isnt.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited October 2012
GW2 needs a dungeon finder so you don't have to spam "LFG" in general chat for two hours. It has nothing to do with the trinity or lack of.
I mean, shit, a dungeon finder in GW2 would be even better than it is in WoW because the system could just throw any five people into a dungeon without needing to look for tanks or healers.
It's absolutely not true that any build can just do explorables, but that's actually part of what makes a LFD tool bad for GW2. GW2 wants its explorable dungeons to be difficult enough they require trial and error, and people adjusting their traits, utilities, etc. from fight to fight, and people just don't do that in average pug situations. LFD tool would just result in people complaining that the dungeons are too hard.
The bigger problem with GW2 is not a lack of dungeon tools, it's the lack of good dungeon design overall, but that's a subjective point. During my honeymoon phase with the game I tried convincing myself the dungeons are better than they are, but they're really not.
Finding classes for you isn't really what makes LFG great, though, it's the convenience- in WoW you go "I am interested in these dungeons, find me a party", then you keep playing. Once it finds a party you're teleported into the dungeon, then, win or lose, you're teleported back where you were.
In GW2 you're likely 5 zones away and need to teleport to the entrance, then spam people until you find a full group (oh, so many people leaving when they realize they're not the last person the party needed), go in, win or lose, you're still at the dungeon. You then have the option to run the same dungeon again, or pay money to teleport to another dungeon, or pay money to get back to the content you were doing before. It's just busywork.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
It's absolutely not true that any build can just do explorables, but that's actually part of what makes a LFD tool bad for GW2. GW2 wants its explorable dungeons to be difficult enough they require trial and error, and people adjusting their traits, utilities, etc. from fight to fight, and people just don't do that in average pug situations. LFD tool would just result in people complaining that the dungeons are too hard.
It's almost as if dungeons could have more than one extremely hard difficulty level.
GW2 needs a dungeon finder so you don't have to spam "LFG" in general chat for two hours. It has nothing to do with the trinity or lack of.
I mean, shit, a dungeon finder in GW2 would be even better than it is in WoW because the system could just throw any five people into a dungeon without needing to look for tanks or healers.
It technically has one. You flag yourself for LFG, and people can see who is flagged in a little list menu. The problem is noone knows it exists, and I have no idea what the range is on it.
It could use some more functionality (Being able to mark what dungeon you are looking for for example) but the main problem isn't that GW2 doesn't have one, it's that noone knows where it is, how to use it, or even where to look for the people who ARE using it.
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GW2 needs a dungeon finder so you don't have to spam "LFG" in general chat for two hours. It has nothing to do with the trinity or lack of.
I mean, shit, a dungeon finder in GW2 would be even better than it is in WoW because the system could just throw any five people into a dungeon without needing to look for tanks or healers.
To your first point, what in the blue fuck are you running that will take you TWO HOURS to look for a group. Seriously, honest to god question.
Whatever your answer, go to Lions Arch, advertise for what you want to run. If you have trouble, re-log, get into an overflow, ask again. If that fails, get a Nice or Candymancers invite(guilds are crosserver) ask there, and you will at least have a pity group in 20 minutes. Dont be lazy.
It's absolutely not true that any build can just do explorables, but that's actually part of what makes a LFD tool bad for GW2. GW2 wants its explorable dungeons to be difficult enough they require trial and error, and people adjusting their traits, utilities, etc. from fight to fight, and people just don't do that in average pug situations. LFD tool would just result in people complaining that the dungeons are too hard.
The bigger problem with GW2 is not a lack of dungeon tools, it's the lack of good dungeon design overall, but that's a subjective point. During my honeymoon phase with the game I tried convincing myself the dungeons are better than they are, but they're really not.
I both agree, and disagree with you, and my stance can be summed up in one sentance.
Every fight boils down to gimic, range, or meele. All of them.
Which means as long as you show up with a ranged weapon a, clense, and a brain, you can do any fight in the game on anything, with anyone.
Its also bad design. You can really tell that dungeons were the last thing to get done.
GW2 needs a dungeon finder so you don't have to spam "LFG" in general chat for two hours. It has nothing to do with the trinity or lack of.
I mean, shit, a dungeon finder in GW2 would be even better than it is in WoW because the system could just throw any five people into a dungeon without needing to look for tanks or healers.
To your first point, what in the blue fuck are you running that will take you TWO HOURS to look for a group. Seriously, honest to god question.
Whatever your answer, go to Lions Arch, advertise for what you want to run. If you have trouble, re-log, get into an overflow, ask again. If that fails, get a Nice or Candymancers invite(guilds are crosserver) ask there, and you will at least have a pity group in 20 minutes. Dont be lazy.
Oh screw the goose off. Even if it did only take 20 minutes (it often takes longer), that's still 20 minutes wasted.
For Story Mode at the very least, there's no reason not to have a system that automatically matches a bunch of people together to run the dungeon. What possible gain is there from this needless inconvenience?
Not wanting the game to waste my fucking time for no reason is not laziness.
They are going to improve the LFG tool/system, they already said so. It seems unlikely that they will do auto-LFD though, especially with some dungeons tied to zone events. They obviously want their dungeons to be a part of the world. You have to travel there, and in some cases secure the entrance. If they just dump you and 4 random other people into the dungeon, some of that substance is gone. There is a point where convenience takes away from the game. I'm not saying we are there yet, and different people are going to have varying opinions on where that point is, but it does exist.
Also, they are thankfully working on incentives for story mode, so it shouldn't be such a pain to get groups for.. hopefully soon.
Incentives don't solve the problem of having to spam chat organizing this shit for no reason.
And what story-mode dungeons are tied to zone events? You don't have to travel to the actual entrance for any of the dungeons.
Dumping you and 4 other random people into the entrance of the dungeon? That's the way the game works right now. The only thing we're asking for is that they streamline the pointless waste of time before that part.
Sorry, but putting a party together is not a pointless waste of time, especially if ANet is aiming for dungeons to be challenging. Does it take too much time? Yes. Should it be automatic? In my opinion, no.
An improved LFG tool will solve the problem of having to spam chat. Story-mode incentives will just make getting the group together faster.
Someone in your party does have to travel to the dungeon entrance to initiate the dungeon. CoE and CoF entrances are tied to zone meta events. Not sure if there are others.
Sorry, but putting a party together is not a pointless waste of time, especially if ANet is aiming for dungeons to be challenging. Does it take too much time? Yes. Should it be automatic? In my opinion, no.
An improved LFG tool will solve the problem of having to spam chat. Story-mode incentives will just make getting the group together faster.
Someone in your party does have to travel to the dungeon entrance to initiate the dungeon. CoE and CoF entrances are tied to zone meta events. Not sure if there are others.
In what way isn't it? What am I gaining by this process? What's the reasoning here?
As pointed out above, GW2 is even less discriminatory about class selection then WoW or it's equivalents so you are literally just grabbing the first 4 warm bodies coherent enough to respond to a message in chat.
Maybe your reasoning applies to Explorable mode, but Story mode is 100% meant to be done by a random group of anybodies.
GW2 needs a dungeon finder so you don't have to spam "LFG" in general chat for two hours. It has nothing to do with the trinity or lack of.
I mean, shit, a dungeon finder in GW2 would be even better than it is in WoW because the system could just throw any five people into a dungeon without needing to look for tanks or healers.
To your first point, what in the blue fuck are you running that will take you TWO HOURS to look for a group. Seriously, honest to god question.
Whatever your answer, go to Lions Arch, advertise for what you want to run. If you have trouble, re-log, get into an overflow, ask again. If that fails, get a Nice or Candymancers invite(guilds are crosserver) ask there, and you will at least have a pity group in 20 minutes. Dont be lazy.
Oh screw the goose off. Even if it did only take 20 minutes (it often takes longer), that's still 20 minutes wasted.
For Story Mode at the very least, there's no reason not to have a system that automatically matches a bunch of people together to run the dungeon. What possible gain is there from this needless inconvenience?
Not wanting the game to waste my fucking time for no reason is not laziness.
Look man, my post wasn't directed at you in any way. My post was in response to the blatent hyperbole that reVerse was using. I remember actually waiting two hours waiting to get a group, and I had to, because there was no other choice. You have choices, right now, in GW2, that you dont have to work exeptionally hard to do. Waiting 2 hours in LA just spamming LFG BLAH is just plain lazy.
As for everything else, you do make a good point in a semi-obtuse way.
The fact that you feel that its not worth the effort to spend 20 minutes putting together a group for a dungeon is terrible, and I agree that the incentive for running them(woo 180 tokens a day for 4 hours in a dungeon wooo i get GLOVES!)
The rewards you get currently
match up with basically a dungeon finder group 20 minute run, and thats a problem. If you are going to make someone go through the effort it takes to do an explorable mode, you should be rewarded in kind.
It's something that WoW did perfect(reward for time spent), and currently, as far as dungeons,GW2 falls short.
And I totally agree about the story mode lfg thing. However, the problem lies in that a LOT of the current story modes are ABSOLUTLY INSANE, and I would not trust five random people on different servers with no accountability attached to finish it, not for what you get, which is a big fat "woo, i finished story mode, horray?".
The fact that you feel that its not worth the effort to spend 20 minutes putting together a group for a dungeon is terrible, and I agree that the incentive for running them(woo 180 tokens a day for 4 hours in a dungeon wooo i get GLOVES!)
The rewards you get currently
match up with basically a dungeon finder group 20 minute run, and thats a problem. If you are going to make someone go through the effort it takes to do an explorable mode, you should be rewarded in kind.
It's something that WoW did perfect(reward for time spent), and currently, as far as dungeons,GW2 falls short.
OK there are legitimate criticisms of dungeons and LFG in GW2, but I can't see how this is one of them. In GW2 you run a dungeon three times and it guarantees you a minor max-stat item. Run a dungeon five times and you are guaranteed a major max-stat item.
That is a lot of reward for little effort compared to the drawn out process of getting max-stat (or even a tier below) gear in WoW.
Edit: Of course, WoW is designed around climbing a tier ladder while GW2 is not, so this makes sense. Regardless, I'd say GW2's dungeon rewards are pretty rapid.
Sorry, but putting a party together is not a pointless waste of time, especially if ANet is aiming for dungeons to be challenging. Does it take too much time? Yes. Should it be automatic? In my opinion, no.
An improved LFG tool will solve the problem of having to spam chat. Story-mode incentives will just make getting the group together faster.
Someone in your party does have to travel to the dungeon entrance to initiate the dungeon. CoE and CoF entrances are tied to zone meta events. Not sure if there are others.
In what way isn't it? What am I gaining by this process? What's the reasoning here?
As pointed out above, GW2 is even less discriminatory about class selection then WoW or it's equivalents so you are literally just grabbing the first 4 warm bodies coherent enough to respond to a message in chat.
Maybe your reasoning applies to Explorable mode, but Story mode is 100% meant to be done by a random group of anybodies.
Auto-LFD might work for story mode. The problem there is then people would expect it for explorable, which I definitely would not prefer (although on the other hand I wouldn't quit the game over it).
I think that people personally getting a party together would mean (in general) more social aspects, more strategy discussion, less people bailing, etc. Meaning a nicer experience overall in the actual dungeon. Maybe that wouldn't be as much of an issue as I am imagining. The GW2 community is pretty good. I think the heavy emphasis on cooperation in PvE helps to encourage a good community.
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in a game with overflow and guesting in the works, i think we will see a LFD in about a year. i rather see dungens be balanced out better before a LFD system and it seem to be working on now.
They need to scale better from 1 player to some larger group of players.
and please don't bring up the random videos in youtube where 5 rouges ran though a heroic at the end of a x-packs life, that is possable but it not what 98% of people run stuff do.
also there is a ton of stuff to do in the world in GW2 like exploring, karma grind that a LFD may not do what it did in wow. in GW2 everything from the AH to even guilds are cross relam. i don't see why a LFG system in dungens would be the end.
master? your "master" made TOC. fuck your master
also about dragon soul holy shit the writing in there was bad, there was one line that made me laugh, GW2 can be bad but nothing will top alexandra shoting at deathwing "he gone completely mad".
after the hundered of years of GENOSIDE, and fucking up the planet, he was on the level, but nope final fight, he went chocho.
I'm curious what you mean by this. Are you talking about tier ladders, or just dungeon design?
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
i honestly like to know. since there are quite a few who think blizzerd have pretty mush gone downhill for a few years. and not just talking about wow.
The world event bosses are basically giant loot pinatas (and shitty loot at that). Almost all the dungeon boss mechanics are 1) This boss has a shitload of health 2) This boss will do an attack that one-shots you probably. This means the dungeon fights are just 10 minute kite & spank snoozefests. If you can see the attacks coming through all the particles effects flying around on screen, then you just dodge it. If you get one-shot, doesn't really matter as long as someone on the team is alive to rez you.
Like, there's a difference between something that's hard and something that's challenging. Staring at a wall for 2 hours is hard because it's so boring, but I wouldn't call it challenging. Spamming skills on a boss for 10 minutes while occasionally dodging makes it hard to not fall asleep, but it's not challenging. A few of the bosses have different mechanics, like the HotW boss that alternates between PBAoE and AoE in a ring around him so you switch between ranged and close-range, but those are fairly rudimentary and not that fun.
I don't want to make it seems like all the dungeons are really easy. Some of the paths are hard. For example, GL is probably the hardest boss in the game, and few PuGs can beat him (he's also one of the very few bosses that has multiple phases). But the "hard" mechanics are: He does a projectile that one-shots you, he does an AoE that one-shots you, and he does a charge attack that one-shots you. It's basically just a gear/build/party composition/reflex check, and part of what makes it "hard" is that his projectile attack is extremely difficult to make out among all the particle effect chaos.
Then on top of that I have to wait 10+ minutes in town/outside the dungeon spamming chat for a party because there's no functional LFG tool.
On the issue of the personal story: it's not really personal at all (your choices don't matter), and the writing/characters are pretty bad.
no i am for real, rous shouldn't be mods if he is ok with this thread, this is not gamefaqs. this type of thread would of been locked if it was about any other subject? GW2 VS SWTOR, it would be locked.
i meen for real we are better then to have a "what is better" thread.
so far seemed like a reasonable discussion with people presenting arguments in support of both sides
remember when you got banned for calling people the n-word and homosexuals?
because someone made fun of your quarterback?
here's an idea: leave the thread and don't come back if you don't want to take part in it's discussion.
Look, while I definitely think this topic is against the spirit if not the rules of the forums (especially as it seems likely to be a magnet for the "Getting mad about videogames" thing) I don't think it's necessary to get upset about this or to start calling names.
Back to the topic at hand. While I do think the games are very different I feel that the gameplay of WoW shows its age significantly. However this does not mean that GW2 is a better game, nor is it worse. It's important to understand that for all their flaws and greatness, neither is a perfect game.
For me, it comes back to story.
For all GW2's good storyline missions and dynamic approach to the quest and event systems, the world lacks a lot of the inclusiveness that draws you in.
The game has an expansive and extensive background but trying to find it is like finding out the past in Skyrim, you have to go out of your way to track down all the tidbits.
For all Warcraft's great inclusiveness and stories, Blizzard is reaching inside and hollowing out the entire Warcraft universe to make new content. Suddenly every single name in the stories and background of the game are not only visible, but interact-able, watchable, and beatable. The Warcraft universe is hollowing out from the inside as Blizzard is trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel to bring new content to the fore. Which is why what was only an in-joke only years before is suddenly a reality.
I'd guess Dungeon design.
GW2 has some interesting things going on and you could build interesting dungeons with them, but they just ... haven't.
And the outdoor bosses of GW2 just aren't that interesting. But the PvE game doesn't ever work well in GW2 with that many players imo.
I am talking about everything PVE in GW2. It is horrible once you get past the very enjoyable leveling. At 80 once I 100% the 60+ zones and got crafting up there wasnt anything to do. I could grind world events endlessly for karma to get some of those cool looking sets, or I could grind horrible dungeons for some of those cooler looking sets, or... well that is pretty much it. I had great fun 1-fresh 80 but that was it.
However, aside from those two problems, which are both fixable (especially the HP one) I think overall the dungeons are pretty good. I've had fun running them, and this is from a guy who's mostly there for the WvW.
Someone above mentioned the personal story not being great. Overall I'd agree, there are parts that are very good, but I didn't ever feel pushed along into a storyline I really wanted to follow the way I did in nightfall, for example. So I reallllly hope they release an expansion with a similar level of story quality.
I agree, WUVWUV is great fun and my personal endgame, and I like some of the stuff about the dungeons, but WoW has it in spades over GW2 in terms of dungeon design
Then again going forward I think that's going to be a big priority of Arenanet. I'd like to see some unique runes/sigils and shit out of dungeons too, it's undeniable that the carrot largely isn't there (I mean, you can only motivate most people for so long with new armor skins). I think Arenanet is capable of having unique statted dungeon items and whatnot without engaging in power creep, you just have to use incomparables like "Gets you out of cc" and "whenever your character /dances you gain might" or something
What I really like about the leveling experience though is how free form it is. I'm not tied to a particular questing hub. With the way the quests are designed I can move out of an area and come back later if I want to without losing any progress. I don't have to follow things in a linear fashion either. If I get bored then I just move on. I'm not stuck grinding out some quest I don't feel like doing in order to get to the next in the series. I can just run around doing whatever exploring to my heart's content. It makes for a much more fluid experience which I enjoy.
I think Anet is going to need to provide a few more carrots to chase at max level to keep people interested long term though.
Cyrondin is as dumb as a bag of hammers, but he did make one actual point.
Yes, GW2 does not have a LFD.
No, GW2 does not need an actual dungeon finder.
Why? It's simple. As he pointed out, you have no tank, and no healer.
The real reason why the dungeon finder existed is that there were roles that no one wanted to play. Everyone wanted to do damage on thier Arms warrior, thier Ret paladin, thier Cat druid, Their 75 SAM/THF, their White Lion, their Gladiator. Thats just how it is. The minority who wanted to actually play a tank, or a healer got groups super quick did everything they needed to do, and either went to an alt or burned out. That made LFG necessary, because of the small pool of players wanting to play those roles. It also affected player mindstates, and nade people think " Hey, instead if waiting 45 minutes for a DPS, maybe i should get some tank gear and instaque.
Overall, LFG is fucking BRILLIANT for WoW, for SWTOR, for Aion. Its damn near necessary.
But not for GW2.
Why?
EVERY SINGLE DUNGEON CAN BE COMPLETED BY ANY CLASS MAKE UP, FOREVER.
Its not that there is just the absence of the Trinity, although that helps.
Its that ther is NO CLASS, no build, that is absolutley necessary. 5 warriors? Get it done.4 eles and a ranger? No prob. No matter the group make up, you can kill it. So getting a group litterally consists of getting five able bodies and beating the heck out if it. No need for a Bard puller, a druid tank, a 99 rebirth wizzy, none of that shit. 5 dudes and then kill mans.
And if you cant somehow reach out to five random people in a game that has 2 million players at the moment, Then you have bigger problems then killing a dungeon boss.
And I say that having leveled from zero to 75 Samurai(with a 37 THF), alone, with an obscenly specific group makeup to be effective( Bard/Thf puller, Red mage, Black Mage, myself, Ninja tank), before my class recieved a massive buff making them actually playable. I have seen the pit of hell. Looking for a group in GW2 it isnt.
I mean, shit, a dungeon finder in GW2 would be even better than it is in WoW because the system could just throw any five people into a dungeon without needing to look for tanks or healers.
The bigger problem with GW2 is not a lack of dungeon tools, it's the lack of good dungeon design overall, but that's a subjective point. During my honeymoon phase with the game I tried convincing myself the dungeons are better than they are, but they're really not.
In GW2 you're likely 5 zones away and need to teleport to the entrance, then spam people until you find a full group (oh, so many people leaving when they realize they're not the last person the party needed), go in, win or lose, you're still at the dungeon. You then have the option to run the same dungeon again, or pay money to teleport to another dungeon, or pay money to get back to the content you were doing before. It's just busywork.
It's almost as if dungeons could have more than one extremely hard difficulty level.
It technically has one. You flag yourself for LFG, and people can see who is flagged in a little list menu. The problem is noone knows it exists, and I have no idea what the range is on it.
It could use some more functionality (Being able to mark what dungeon you are looking for for example) but the main problem isn't that GW2 doesn't have one, it's that noone knows where it is, how to use it, or even where to look for the people who ARE using it.
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To your first point, what in the blue fuck are you running that will take you TWO HOURS to look for a group. Seriously, honest to god question.
Whatever your answer, go to Lions Arch, advertise for what you want to run. If you have trouble, re-log, get into an overflow, ask again. If that fails, get a Nice or Candymancers invite(guilds are crosserver) ask there, and you will at least have a pity group in 20 minutes. Dont be lazy.
I both agree, and disagree with you, and my stance can be summed up in one sentance.
Every fight boils down to gimic, range, or meele. All of them.
Which means as long as you show up with a ranged weapon a, clense, and a brain, you can do any fight in the game on anything, with anyone.
Its also bad design. You can really tell that dungeons were the last thing to get done.
Oh screw the goose off. Even if it did only take 20 minutes (it often takes longer), that's still 20 minutes wasted.
For Story Mode at the very least, there's no reason not to have a system that automatically matches a bunch of people together to run the dungeon. What possible gain is there from this needless inconvenience?
Not wanting the game to waste my fucking time for no reason is not laziness.
Also, they are thankfully working on incentives for story mode, so it shouldn't be such a pain to get groups for.. hopefully soon.
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
And what story-mode dungeons are tied to zone events? You don't have to travel to the actual entrance for any of the dungeons.
Dumping you and 4 other random people into the entrance of the dungeon? That's the way the game works right now. The only thing we're asking for is that they streamline the pointless waste of time before that part.
An improved LFG tool will solve the problem of having to spam chat. Story-mode incentives will just make getting the group together faster.
Someone in your party does have to travel to the dungeon entrance to initiate the dungeon. CoE and CoF entrances are tied to zone meta events. Not sure if there are others.
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
In what way isn't it? What am I gaining by this process? What's the reasoning here?
As pointed out above, GW2 is even less discriminatory about class selection then WoW or it's equivalents so you are literally just grabbing the first 4 warm bodies coherent enough to respond to a message in chat.
Maybe your reasoning applies to Explorable mode, but Story mode is 100% meant to be done by a random group of anybodies.
Look man, my post wasn't directed at you in any way. My post was in response to the blatent hyperbole that reVerse was using. I remember actually waiting two hours waiting to get a group, and I had to, because there was no other choice. You have choices, right now, in GW2, that you dont have to work exeptionally hard to do. Waiting 2 hours in LA just spamming LFG BLAH is just plain lazy.
As for everything else, you do make a good point in a semi-obtuse way.
The fact that you feel that its not worth the effort to spend 20 minutes putting together a group for a dungeon is terrible, and I agree that the incentive for running them(woo 180 tokens a day for 4 hours in a dungeon wooo i get GLOVES!)
The rewards you get currently
match up with basically a dungeon finder group 20 minute run, and thats a problem. If you are going to make someone go through the effort it takes to do an explorable mode, you should be rewarded in kind.
It's something that WoW did perfect(reward for time spent), and currently, as far as dungeons,GW2 falls short.
And I totally agree about the story mode lfg thing. However, the problem lies in that a LOT of the current story modes are ABSOLUTLY INSANE, and I would not trust five random people on different servers with no accountability attached to finish it, not for what you get, which is a big fat "woo, i finished story mode, horray?".
OK there are legitimate criticisms of dungeons and LFG in GW2, but I can't see how this is one of them. In GW2 you run a dungeon three times and it guarantees you a minor max-stat item. Run a dungeon five times and you are guaranteed a major max-stat item.
That is a lot of reward for little effort compared to the drawn out process of getting max-stat (or even a tier below) gear in WoW.
Edit: Of course, WoW is designed around climbing a tier ladder while GW2 is not, so this makes sense. Regardless, I'd say GW2's dungeon rewards are pretty rapid.
Auto-LFD might work for story mode. The problem there is then people would expect it for explorable, which I definitely would not prefer (although on the other hand I wouldn't quit the game over it).
I think that people personally getting a party together would mean (in general) more social aspects, more strategy discussion, less people bailing, etc. Meaning a nicer experience overall in the actual dungeon. Maybe that wouldn't be as much of an issue as I am imagining. The GW2 community is pretty good. I think the heavy emphasis on cooperation in PvE helps to encourage a good community.
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)