That is the same with every media in the history of everything, ever.
I know, it just hits home more because I enjoy gaming so much. It doesn't help that gaming is so new and still trying to find it's place in the sun, so it needs a bigger and more positive outward appearance. I'd be devastated if books were only 40ish years old and Twilight was a best seller. That's not what I want associated with books at all. Likewise, it irks me that when people think of gaming they think of endless streams of smart phone flash games and shooters. Yeah I love killing some mans online, and I pass the time with games on my phone, but there's so much more out there.
I'm not really sure what to say to people who are afraid that the nerd culture is not their culture anymore, and that somehow having more money thrown at your culture to woo you is a bad thing for you.
It's a thing that's already happened anyway, that nerd culture is more popular than you would like it to be, for whatever reason that you don't want other people to share your interests.
I don't think it's a problem of not wanting people to share your interests. It's that the money being thrown to woo isn't to woo you, it's by investors in the culture to woo other new people. They don't care about you, they want those new people. You like X game type? Too bad, Y games are big, all the big developers are churning them out instead of other things. It's okay though, cause you can talk to everyone about Y and see ads for Y on TV and the news might even run some awkwardly heartwarming and funny stories about dogs learning to play Y or something. Those new people won't know about X, but Y is pretty cool for now. Certainly the more the merrier, but when the more want to change something you enjoy, it's not unreasonable to resent them.
I, too, resent the mainstreamification and lowered barriers to creating games that has allowed a more diverse group of people to design and present games than ever before and look back fondly on the days--
Seriously, what are you missing? In between indie games, more thoughtful AAA games, and tons and tons of free underground game jamz, we have more game options than ever. What golden age are you pining for? When developers actually did make and market games to and for little kids? I don't! I'm happy I have plenty of adult games to play with now, in every flavor, in every difficulty! If this is what "mainstreaming" games has done, then yes, please, more mainstream, and even more.
Outside of smaller studios, kickstarters and indie games though, a lot of the bigger names in the industry are content to give us the same stuff over and over again. I certainly think we're in a golden age of gaming, if such a thing exists. But what will happen if and when interest in gaming decreases again? Even now though, yeah we have a lot of stuff to play, but how many people do you think I can talk to about games like FTL or Fallen Enchantress? How many can I talk to about Skyrim or CoD? I love when people who got into gaming thanks to Guitar Hero or Madden broaden their horizons, and I feel a little disappointed when they don't. There's a lot of great stuff out there, but unfortunately the public perception of it is just the big, mainstream games.
Tube and Srice have already tackled the meat of what I'd say, but I'll tack on that the people making your beloved niche titles aren't doing it for the mainstream sales, and the mainstream usually isn't buying it. So, you'll only have to worry about quirky titles like FTL going away when your hardcore/trueskool/oldschool/whatever gamers stop buying them.
Tangential: No offense, you seem like a nice enough guy, but holy shit does your entire statement make me scratch my head even more at this whole 'nerd vs hipster' thing that seems to rage across the internet. I couldn't think of a more stereotypical hipster line of thinking if I tried to. And I say this as a hipster sympathizer.
That is the same with every media in the history of everything, ever.
I know, it just hits home more because I enjoy gaming so much. It doesn't help that gaming is so new and still trying to find it's place in the sun, so it needs a bigger and more positive outward appearance. I'd be devastated if books were only 40ish years old and Twilight was a best seller. That's not what I want associated with books at all. Likewise, it irks me that when people think of gaming they think of endless streams of smart phone flash games and shooters. Yeah I love killing some mans online, and I pass the time with games on my phone, but there's so much more out there.
Considering that porn was one of the first uses of video...
You don't start off with the works of Shakespeare (and Shakespeare wrote a bunch of stinkers himself), you start off with simple stories and work up from there.
And cut it with the 'mainstream idiots' crap. Dead or Alive is aimed at a niche nerd demographic and half of its physics are for the character's breasts. Catering to a limited audience doesn't improve media, it makes it lazy because it can replace actual humor with in jokes and storytelling with referentiality.
Being socially ostracized as a kid does not make it okay to socially ostracize people when you're slightly older.
You don't get some "Act Like A Dick Free" card because your hobbies didn't make you popular in middle school.
We understand the concept. We understand why it's happening. That doesn't mean it's okay for grown people to act like middle schoolers.
Also, it's not like we're talking about an abuse shelter or Alcoholic's Anonymous. It's a hobby. The Gaymer con being linked to is different because it's about common ground and the politics of their gathering, they aren't going to kick someone out who doesn't have enough gay cred. I know we're all a little weird in games/comics/sci-fi, and safe spaces are great, but you don't get to make your safe space a weapon.
It's not that we missed a simple concept. It's just that it's so basic I thought we were bypassing that to talk about why that concept is bad for the overall culture.
It's not that none of us have ever been ostracized or isolated. It's just that some of us found a way through, and hey, some of those guys should join us, it's pretty nice over here too.
A guy might be forgiven for having different geek interests if he doesn't know the difference between the original Star Trek & Star Trek: The Next Generation.
Not by me.
(Kidding. Honest.)
I used this example because for years I didn't know this. I thought Picard & Kirk were on the same show. But it's cool, I can talk your ear off about Batman.
I used this example because for years I didn't know this. I thought Picard / Kirk were on the same show.
Fixed
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I used this example because for years I didn't know this. I thought Picard & Kirk were on the same show. But it's cool, I can talk your ear off about Batman.
Pre- or post-DKR? Golden, Silver, Bronze, Modern? DCAU, the, BatB? How many Robins am I holding up? ; )
Yes, as in people who played games before it was trendy and cool, and supported these franchises before gaming was a billion dollar industry, and not people whose first and only experience with a series is the newest iteration.
I like that words aren't even allowed to have definitions and that those definitions are meaningless, because they infringe on the all-accepting, gate-less, homogenized culture you want to create, so that gaming can finally be mainstream.
Hell, spending 5-minutes with the new DmC will tell you that this is a hobby for 13-year-olds and that it's going to stay that way for a good long time.
You didn't answer someone else when they questioned this and I'm still confused.
How can anyone younger than, say, eighteen really be a nerd then?
I have a thirteen year old nephew who loves video games, comics, anime, and attends some magnet school.
Much like video games, enjoying comics and anime don't get people socially ostracized anymore. Should my nephew stop calling himself a nerd or geek? After all, his first console was an Xbox, he didn't track down VHS copies of Sailor Moon, and he's reading popular runs of comics downloaded onto his tablet rather than slogging through crappy ones bought monthly. Is he not a nerd if he isn't a social outcast who inflicts suffering on himself for no apparent reason?
I don’t want to start this discussion up again, but here’s my two cents.
I think the problem is not that ‘fake nerds’ devalue anything ‘real nerds’ do, but more that for some (or many) ‘real nerds’ their hobby holds more value than just being fun. I got into punk rock at a very young age and I recognize what’s going on here all too well. At first I got made fun of a lot during highschool for listening to “the sound of people being kiled” but as soon as bands like the offspring and blink 182 started getting radioplay it seemed like being ‘punk’ was the new thing.
At first it bothered me A LOT, because my reasons for being into punk rock seemed so removed from other people’s reason. To me it was more about finding a place, a culture or a group to identify with. A place to feel safe without being judged, a place to meet likeminded people and to know that it was okay to be different. A place I could lose myself in something that felt hidden from the outside world, and a place that gave me emotional and mental support at times when I felt low. I’m sure a lot of “nerds” started playing d’n’d or reading lotr to feel a sense of strength and have a place to find comfort and support. The same thing I searched for in music.
It used to infuriate me to think that so many people were buying into something that was so important to me. Almost to the point it devalued everything I loved. It made me act like a douche and I was always trying to one-up everyone that was even remotely intersted in stuff I enjoyed.
But then something happened… I grew up. I grew up and realised that anything another person likes or dislikes does in no way give my interest more or less value. Soccer moms who like Green Day don’t bother me anymore. Same way it won’t ever bother me seeing people wearing a batman shirt that know nothing about comics. Maybe they like the animated series they saw 5 times on the tv, maybe they just liked the design, and just maybe they borrowed it from a friend and don't even know what Batman is (yeah right). Point is, it doesn’t really mean anything to my love for the bat or anything else. I know people find comfort in labelling themselves as something, but trust me, this will never be influenced by what other people say or do. Once you get over this it becomes hilarious, even trivial really.
Tl;dr: like what you like, and don’t judge people based on how fake or real they are about your 'unique' interest. It just makes you look like a sad, whiney douche.
You know what gamers need? An Oscars. Not because there would be any credibility to an arbitrary awards show, but because the old-school, rose-colored-hindsight grumps
could give all the indie, punishingly hard games the awards and get off people's backs. Roger Ebert still has Citizen Kane to watch and these folks still have Battletoads. And movies like Lincoln and games like Super Meat Boy and IWTBTG are still being made. So they can make themselves feel more...whatever by nominating those games and hearkening back to an age when games were made difficult not to be engaging, but to take your quarters or justify charging hundreds of dollars for eight minute long games. Meanwhile I'll enjoy Super Metroid on an emulator (gasp) and Skyrim, Citizen Kane and The Avengers. Since old things don't just go away, and great new things are being made, I can be grateful to live in the best of both worlds and an incredible era for creativity, and they can continue to feel better than me.
I'd just like to add that it's really unfortunate that we even have to have these arguments, because I'm fairly sure from Marmoset's posting record we might get along fairly well. Unless he's one of those FAKE politically/economically concerned peoples.
She had it waaaay worse than us boys, in pretty much every way. She's as true a fucking scotsman as you can get, and yet she still never uses her mic when she's pugging ME3 multiplayer. And why? Because of all the shit that she knows she's immediately going to deal with. Where's her fucking safe zone, huh?
In that case she should pretent that she is a 11 year old boy to make it really awkward for everybody.
I'm not really sure what to say to people who are afraid that the nerd culture is not their culture anymore, and that somehow having more money thrown at your culture to woo you is a bad thing for you.
It's a thing that's already happened anyway, that nerd culture is more popular than you would like it to be, for whatever reason that you don't want other people to share your interests.
I don't think it's a problem of not wanting people to share your interests. It's that the money being thrown to woo isn't to woo you, it's by investors in the culture to woo other new people. They don't care about you, they want those new people. You like X game type? Too bad, Y games are big, all the big developers are churning them out instead of other things. It's okay though, cause you can talk to everyone about Y and see ads for Y on TV and the news might even run some awkwardly heartwarming and funny stories about dogs learning to play Y or something. Those new people won't know about X, but Y is pretty cool for now. Certainly the more the merrier, but when the more want to change something you enjoy, it's not unreasonable to resent them.
I, too, resent the mainstreamification and lowered barriers to creating games that has allowed a more diverse group of people to design and present games than ever before and look back fondly on the days--
Seriously, what are you missing? In between indie games, more thoughtful AAA games, and tons and tons of free underground game jamz, we have more game options than ever. What golden age are you pining for? When developers actually did make and market games to and for little kids? I don't! I'm happy I have plenty of adult games to play with now, in every flavor, in every difficulty! If this is what "mainstreaming" games has done, then yes, please, more mainstream, and even more.
Outside of smaller studios, kickstarters and indie games though, a lot of the bigger names in the industry are content to give us the same stuff over and over again. I certainly think we're in a golden age of gaming, if such a thing exists. But what will happen if and when interest in gaming decreases again? Even now though, yeah we have a lot of stuff to play, but how many people do you think I can talk to about games like FTL or Fallen Enchantress? How many can I talk to about Skyrim or CoD? I love when people who got into gaming thanks to Guitar Hero or Madden broaden their horizons, and I feel a little disappointed when they don't. There's a lot of great stuff out there, but unfortunately the public perception of it is just the big, mainstream games.
Tube and Srice have already tackled the meat of what I'd say, but I'll tack on that the people making your beloved niche titles aren't doing it for the mainstream sales, and the mainstream usually isn't buying it. So, you'll only have to worry about quirky titles like FTL going away when your hardcore/trueskool/oldschool/whatever gamers stop buying them.
Tangential: No offense, you seem like a nice enough guy, but holy shit does your entire statement make me scratch my head even more at this whole 'nerd vs hipster' thing that seems to rage across the internet. I couldn't think of a more stereotypical hipster line of thinking if I tried to. And I say this as a hipster sympathizer.
My problem is rose tinted glasses. It's like the new DmC thing. No matter how great the new game actually is, I'm going to look down on it. In a few years I'll look back at this generation with fond memories of all my favorites, but still ignoring the crap, all the while complaining that the current generation is bad. The cycle will repeat until on my death bed I look back and think my whole life was pretty great, except this little dying bit.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
1) Once again, that's true of every creative medium, 2) I'm not understanding the problem.
oh man. All the silly geese. I am a oft-described hipster and seeing someone basically saying "you just don't get it" completely unironically is excellent.
Clearly, the problem here is that some people are nerds about the word "nerd" and, as a linguistics nerd and an etymology nerd, I would attest that these people are fake word nerds who are only in it for the popularity of the word "nerd" and therefore should be ridiculed, tarred, and feathered.
The infinitely interwoven layers of hipster, impossible for the eye to follow...
No mention of Manti Te'o yet? The timing on this could not have possibly been more perfect.
Manti Te'o was the runner up for the Heisman trophy (biggest individual honor in college football) in large part due to the touching story of his grandmother and girlfriend dying during the season. Yesterday the news broke that the girlfriend never existed.
But seriously, there's no point in getting upset about how the games of yesteryear are gone, since they're still here.
One of the major justifications I'm seeing for hating on the "new gamers" or the "new nerds" or the "fake nerds" or whatever it is you want to call it is that games get dumbed down. So now we've got the new Devil May Cry and and endless Call of Duty clones and so on as multi-billion dollar companies try to invest billions of dollars in the newly arrived masses. Those multi-billion dollar companies aren't catering to your little niche?
they never were
Back when being a gamer was social suicide games were being produced by companies using resources equal or inferior to what the indie teams of today have to play with.
Except the indie teams working on games today are legion beyond numbering etc, etc. Even before kickstarter started churning out ridiculously niche stuff.
The whole dread issue is just smoke and mirrors. The culture people are mourning the loss of never wavered, if other people can't find it in the mainstream that shouldn't be any of your concern. If you ever really cared you can.
I don’t want to start this discussion up again, but here’s my two cents.
I think the problem is not that ‘fake nerds’ devalue anything ‘real nerds’ do, but more that for some (or many) ‘real nerds’ their hobby holds more value than just being fun. I got into punk rock at a very young age and I recognize what’s going on here all too well. At first I got made fun of a lot during highschool for listening to “the sound of people being kiled” but as soon as bands like the offspring and blink 182 started getting radioplay it seemed like being ‘punk’ was the new thing.
At first it bothered me A LOT, because my reasons for being into punk rock seemed so removed from other people’s reason. To me it was more about finding a place, a culture or a group to identify with. A place to feel safe without being judged, a place to meet likeminded people and to know that it was okay to be different. A place I could lose myself in something that felt hidden from the outside world, and a place that gave me emotional and mental support at times when I felt low. I’m sure a lot of “nerds” started playing d’n’d or reading lotr to feel a sense of strength and have a place to find comfort and support. The same thing I searched for in music.
I'm glad you did put this in, because I think it should be recognized:
The need or desire for a community, a safe space, a (sub)culture to identify with, to support us in ways that the "outside world" can't or won't, is not inherently bad or wrong. It's a natural, human thing. We are social beings. And most of us, when we start to form our own identities early in life - separate from our families, our classroom groups, our churches/temples/mosques etc - start by defining ourselves by our interests. It's an easy thing to grasp, an easy way to draw lines between "us" and "them", between "me" and "everyone else" - and again, by itself this is not bad. It's vital. Without boundaries or distinctions, "me" cannot exist as a discrete entity.
(And yet, we don't want to be totally alone either; we want to be part of a group that we choose, more compatible than the ones that we're born into or assigned to. That constant tension between individuality and community, wanting our own space yet needing to "belong", is something we all have to deal with as human beings.)
There are, IMO, (at least) two common ways for this to go wrong, however. One is when those initial, possibly superficial choices are never reexamined and reevaluated, but are uncritically reinforced and internalized. (From "I like X" to "I AM X.") The things you liked as a child or adolescent are not the same as who you are, especially not when you're twice the age (or more) that you were when you first began to consider the matter. The second is when those natural and necessary boundaries are drawn so aggressively that they become as fortified and impassible as the Berlin Wall or the Korean DMZ: from "I like X" to "and I HATE anyone who doesn't!" Again, it should be acknowledged: this can be the result of a natural defensive reaction to harassment and even persecution. But it can become more of a hindrance than a useful adaption when one continues to drag around a heavy shell one doesn't actually need anymore, or when the instinct to lash out overrides reason and/or triggers on false positives.
it might have something to do with the 'true nerds' now having to share their hobby with the very same people that tormented them in high school because it became a lot more mainstream
it might have something to do with the 'true nerds' now having to share their hobby with the very same people that tormented them in high school because it became a lot more mainstream
Yes, others have said that. But:
1. I get in arguments and sometimes even worse with people who are unquestionably "legitimately" in my hobbies all the time. It's possible to disagree with and even strongly dislike someone, yet still acknowledge that they are part of the tribe.
2. That was how many years ago? For sanity's sake, there's got to be some kind of statute of limitation on these things. Let it go.*
(* I say this, yet know it won't happen, because if there's one thing humans are good at besides making tools and filling up the planet, it's holding grudges. People all over said planet are and have been killing each other for hundreds if not thousands of years while shouting, "he started it!")
There is a difference -- a huge difference -- between people who like specific elements of geek culture, and those who have absolutely NO interest in ANY part of geek culture, but deliberately feign interest in such for the sole purpose of fame or financial gain. And such people do exist
it might have something to do with the 'true nerds' now having to share their hobby with the very same people that tormented them in high school because it became a lot more mainstream
.. and what better chance for reconciliation, than to know you now share common interests with someone who used to torment you, and you might have the chance to make an enemy out of a friend? It's not as if there aren't bullies even within "Real X subculture". A profoundly aggravating memory from my time playing serious chess is that people would use your ability at chess as a social yardstick. Like I get if two top end players want to go over a game at a level I can't understand without being disturbed, but just because you're two classes higher rated than me, that doesn't mean that my opinions about politics or literature or other unrelated topics are automatically meritless.
However, I stand by my claim that there is a useful definition of a "fake gamer" as detailed above, and it isn't about how deep your passion goes, but whether or not you're pretending to have one for an ulterior motive. Or to steal from Fight Club, you don't have to have giant-ass man-boobs like Robert Paulsen to hang around Men Remaining Men, but I'll damn sure call out Tyler and Marla for what they are.
There is a difference -- a huge difference -- between people who like specific elements of geek culture, and those who have absolutely NO interest in ANY part of geek culture, but deliberately feign interest in such for the sole purpose of fame or financial gain. And such people do exist
it might have something to do with the 'true nerds' now having to share their hobby with the very same people that tormented them in high school because it became a lot more mainstream
.. and what better chance for reconciliation, than to know you now share common interests with someone who used to torment you, and you might have the chance to make an enemy out of a friend? It's not as if there aren't bullies even within "Real X subculture". A profoundly aggravating memory from my time playing serious chess is that people would use your ability at chess as a social yardstick. Like I get if two top end players want to go over a game at a level I can't understand without being disturbed, but just because you're two classes higher rated than me, that doesn't mean that my opinions about politics or literature or other unrelated topics are automatically meritless.
However, I stand by my claim that there is a useful definition of a "fake gamer" as detailed above, and it isn't about how deep your passion goes, but whether or not you're pretending to have one for an ulterior motive. Or to steal from Fight Club, you don't have to have giant-ass man-boobs like Robert Paulsen to hang around Men Remaining Men, but I'll damn sure call out Tyler and Marla for what they are.
who are you calling out
can you give an example, Grand Inquisitor?
I mean, if it's this pervasive a problem that you feel the need to stamp your feet and say NO MORE, then you should be able to illustrate an example of this, no?
Not some kind of generic "the sort of people who..."
The only way I could care about the fake geek girl thing (or fake geek boy) is if they were using it to gain some personal advantage through duplicity. I think everyone could imagine a scenario where someone feigned interest in something to get what they wanted, be that gaming, sports or what have you. Now, people I didn't like in high school now enjoying the things I enjoyed back then? Hey, that's just more targets to shoot / chop at online.
I'm a little dubious on those who have portal shirts, plushies and endlessly recite lines - but that certainly doesn't diminish my hobby in any way.
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kaliyamaLeft to find less-moderated foraRegistered Userregular
A single girl who is interested in being the "3" in a three-some.
Not just girls in this case, but right. As to @A Very Perturbed Marmoset, what does feeling like carpetbaggers are swarming your hobbies have to do with being a jerk to the newcomers? Nobody is making you interact with the "fake" geeks, so I don't understand what the problem is for people.
There is a difference -- a huge difference -- between people who like specific elements of geek culture, and those who have absolutely NO interest in ANY part of geek culture, but deliberately feign interest in such for the sole purpose of fame or financial gain. And such people do exist
it might have something to do with the 'true nerds' now having to share their hobby with the very same people that tormented them in high school because it became a lot more mainstream
.. and what better chance for reconciliation, than to know you now share common interests with someone who used to torment you, and you might have the chance to make an enemy out of a friend? It's not as if there aren't bullies even within "Real X subculture". A profoundly aggravating memory from my time playing serious chess is that people would use your ability at chess as a social yardstick. Like I get if two top end players want to go over a game at a level I can't understand without being disturbed, but just because you're two classes higher rated than me, that doesn't mean that my opinions about politics or literature or other unrelated topics are automatically meritless.
However, I stand by my claim that there is a useful definition of a "fake gamer" as detailed above, and it isn't about how deep your passion goes, but whether or not you're pretending to have one for an ulterior motive. Or to steal from Fight Club, you don't have to have giant-ass man-boobs like Robert Paulsen to hang around Men Remaining Men, but I'll damn sure call out Tyler and Marla for what they are.
who are you calling out
can you give an example, Grand Inquisitor?
I mean, if it's this pervasive a problem that you feel the need to stamp your feet and say NO MORE, then you should be able to illustrate an example of this, no?
Not some kind of generic "the sort of people who..."
You're on the internet. Provide links.
Do you deny that there exist people who feign interest in a hobby (while actually having none) for ulterior motives such as fame or financial gain?
The only way I could care about the fake geek girl thing (or fake geek boy) is if they were using it to gain some personal advantage through duplicity. I think everyone could imagine a scenario where someone feigned interest in something to get what they wanted, be that gaming, sports or what have you.
There is a difference -- a huge difference -- between people who like specific elements of geek culture, and those who have absolutely NO interest in ANY part of geek culture, but deliberately feign interest in such for the sole purpose of fame or financial gain. And such people do exist
it might have something to do with the 'true nerds' now having to share their hobby with the very same people that tormented them in high school because it became a lot more mainstream
.. and what better chance for reconciliation, than to know you now share common interests with someone who used to torment you, and you might have the chance to make an enemy out of a friend? It's not as if there aren't bullies even within "Real X subculture". A profoundly aggravating memory from my time playing serious chess is that people would use your ability at chess as a social yardstick. Like I get if two top end players want to go over a game at a level I can't understand without being disturbed, but just because you're two classes higher rated than me, that doesn't mean that my opinions about politics or literature or other unrelated topics are automatically meritless.
However, I stand by my claim that there is a useful definition of a "fake gamer" as detailed above, and it isn't about how deep your passion goes, but whether or not you're pretending to have one for an ulterior motive. Or to steal from Fight Club, you don't have to have giant-ass man-boobs like Robert Paulsen to hang around Men Remaining Men, but I'll damn sure call out Tyler and Marla for what they are.
who are you calling out
can you give an example, Grand Inquisitor?
I mean, if it's this pervasive a problem that you feel the need to stamp your feet and say NO MORE, then you should be able to illustrate an example of this, no?
Not some kind of generic "the sort of people who..."
You're on the internet. Provide links.
Do you deny that there exist people who feign interest in a hobby (while actually having none) for ulterior motives such as fame or financial gain?
The only way I could care about the fake geek girl thing (or fake geek boy) is if they were using it to gain some personal advantage through duplicity. I think everyone could imagine a scenario where someone feigned interest in something to get what they wanted, be that gaming, sports or what have you.
Pony can't, apparently.
Where are these people?
You don't get to weasel out of showing examples by saying 'can't you imagine people who do this thing? CAN'T YOU?'
The only way I could care about the fake geek girl thing (or fake geek boy) is if they were using it to gain some personal advantage through duplicity. I think everyone could imagine a scenario where someone feigned interest in something to get what they wanted, be that gaming, sports or what have you.
Pony can't, apparently.
The closest I can think of is shit like booth babes at cons and I'd rather that they weren't used.
But that's not quite the same level of "fake geek" you seem to think exists.
Some people can't tell the difference between believing something doesn't exist, and believing something is rare enough that there's no point in making any special efforts or preparations as regards it.
There is a difference -- a huge difference -- between people who like specific elements of geek culture, and those who have absolutely NO interest in ANY part of geek culture, but deliberately feign interest in such for the sole purpose of fame or financial gain. And such people do exist
it might have something to do with the 'true nerds' now having to share their hobby with the very same people that tormented them in high school because it became a lot more mainstream
.. and what better chance for reconciliation, than to know you now share common interests with someone who used to torment you, and you might have the chance to make an enemy out of a friend? It's not as if there aren't bullies even within "Real X subculture". A profoundly aggravating memory from my time playing serious chess is that people would use your ability at chess as a social yardstick. Like I get if two top end players want to go over a game at a level I can't understand without being disturbed, but just because you're two classes higher rated than me, that doesn't mean that my opinions about politics or literature or other unrelated topics are automatically meritless.
However, I stand by my claim that there is a useful definition of a "fake gamer" as detailed above, and it isn't about how deep your passion goes, but whether or not you're pretending to have one for an ulterior motive. Or to steal from Fight Club, you don't have to have giant-ass man-boobs like Robert Paulsen to hang around Men Remaining Men, but I'll damn sure call out Tyler and Marla for what they are.
who are you calling out
can you give an example, Grand Inquisitor?
I mean, if it's this pervasive a problem that you feel the need to stamp your feet and say NO MORE, then you should be able to illustrate an example of this, no?
Not some kind of generic "the sort of people who..."
You're on the internet. Provide links.
Do you deny that there exist people who feign interest in a hobby (while actually having none) for ulterior motives such as fame or financial gain?
The only way I could care about the fake geek girl thing (or fake geek boy) is if they were using it to gain some personal advantage through duplicity. I think everyone could imagine a scenario where someone feigned interest in something to get what they wanted, be that gaming, sports or what have you.
The only realistic example I can come up with for people making money off of a hobby they're not interested in is when they're selling products for that hobby. Like, a hypothetical example could a comic book store owner that only likes American comics and doesn't like tabletop games or manga or whatever, but sells them anyways because he knows that some people do and will buy them.
But I don't see that as a problem by any stretch of the imagination.
I think 'fake' in this context pretty much always means 'not as knowledgable as me about subject x'. And by god that's some of the lamest stuff ever.
I don't think I've ever seen people actually fake interest in something... I've seen a lot of people trying way too hard to be interested in something only to find out they aren't really after a few weeks though.
I find it funny that, even on what is definitely a nerd forum, the sterotype of nerds as permavirgin neckbeard mouthbreathers is still in full force.
Yeah it turns out that stereotype exists in vast numbers.
Yes, as do black thieves. But taking the stance of "poor perfect girl gamers that have to deal with mouthbreathers" does not help anyone. If they looked like a Man o War cover the issue would still be there.
On the other hand, I only know a fugly permavirgin neckbeard mouthbreather and he is not a nerd by any stretch of the word. I don't like to put up with toxic stereotypes even if they are directed at people I don't like.
Posts
I know, it just hits home more because I enjoy gaming so much. It doesn't help that gaming is so new and still trying to find it's place in the sun, so it needs a bigger and more positive outward appearance. I'd be devastated if books were only 40ish years old and Twilight was a best seller. That's not what I want associated with books at all. Likewise, it irks me that when people think of gaming they think of endless streams of smart phone flash games and shooters. Yeah I love killing some mans online, and I pass the time with games on my phone, but there's so much more out there.
Tube and Srice have already tackled the meat of what I'd say, but I'll tack on that the people making your beloved niche titles aren't doing it for the mainstream sales, and the mainstream usually isn't buying it. So, you'll only have to worry about quirky titles like FTL going away when your hardcore/trueskool/oldschool/whatever gamers stop buying them.
Tangential: No offense, you seem like a nice enough guy, but holy shit does your entire statement make me scratch my head even more at this whole 'nerd vs hipster' thing that seems to rage across the internet. I couldn't think of a more stereotypical hipster line of thinking if I tried to. And I say this as a hipster sympathizer.
On the black screen
Considering that porn was one of the first uses of video...
You don't start off with the works of Shakespeare (and Shakespeare wrote a bunch of stinkers himself), you start off with simple stories and work up from there.
And cut it with the 'mainstream idiots' crap. Dead or Alive is aimed at a niche nerd demographic and half of its physics are for the character's breasts. Catering to a limited audience doesn't improve media, it makes it lazy because it can replace actual humor with in jokes and storytelling with referentiality.
Also, it's not like we're talking about an abuse shelter or Alcoholic's Anonymous. It's a hobby. The Gaymer con being linked to is different because it's about common ground and the politics of their gathering, they aren't going to kick someone out who doesn't have enough gay cred. I know we're all a little weird in games/comics/sci-fi, and safe spaces are great, but you don't get to make your safe space a weapon.
It's not that we missed a simple concept. It's just that it's so basic I thought we were bypassing that to talk about why that concept is bad for the overall culture.
It's not that none of us have ever been ostracized or isolated. It's just that some of us found a way through, and hey, some of those guys should join us, it's pretty nice over here too.
I used this example because for years I didn't know this. I thought Picard & Kirk were on the same show. But it's cool, I can talk your ear off about Batman.
Fixed
You didn't answer someone else when they questioned this and I'm still confused.
How can anyone younger than, say, eighteen really be a nerd then?
I have a thirteen year old nephew who loves video games, comics, anime, and attends some magnet school.
Much like video games, enjoying comics and anime don't get people socially ostracized anymore. Should my nephew stop calling himself a nerd or geek? After all, his first console was an Xbox, he didn't track down VHS copies of Sailor Moon, and he's reading popular runs of comics downloaded onto his tablet rather than slogging through crappy ones bought monthly. Is he not a nerd if he isn't a social outcast who inflicts suffering on himself for no apparent reason?
I think the problem is not that ‘fake nerds’ devalue anything ‘real nerds’ do, but more that for some (or many) ‘real nerds’ their hobby holds more value than just being fun. I got into punk rock at a very young age and I recognize what’s going on here all too well. At first I got made fun of a lot during highschool for listening to “the sound of people being kiled” but as soon as bands like the offspring and blink 182 started getting radioplay it seemed like being ‘punk’ was the new thing.
At first it bothered me A LOT, because my reasons for being into punk rock seemed so removed from other people’s reason. To me it was more about finding a place, a culture or a group to identify with. A place to feel safe without being judged, a place to meet likeminded people and to know that it was okay to be different. A place I could lose myself in something that felt hidden from the outside world, and a place that gave me emotional and mental support at times when I felt low. I’m sure a lot of “nerds” started playing d’n’d or reading lotr to feel a sense of strength and have a place to find comfort and support. The same thing I searched for in music.
It used to infuriate me to think that so many people were buying into something that was so important to me. Almost to the point it devalued everything I loved. It made me act like a douche and I was always trying to one-up everyone that was even remotely intersted in stuff I enjoyed.
But then something happened… I grew up. I grew up and realised that anything another person likes or dislikes does in no way give my interest more or less value. Soccer moms who like Green Day don’t bother me anymore. Same way it won’t ever bother me seeing people wearing a batman shirt that know nothing about comics. Maybe they like the animated series they saw 5 times on the tv, maybe they just liked the design, and just maybe they borrowed it from a friend and don't even know what Batman is (yeah right). Point is, it doesn’t really mean anything to my love for the bat or anything else. I know people find comfort in labelling themselves as something, but trust me, this will never be influenced by what other people say or do. Once you get over this it becomes hilarious, even trivial really.
Tl;dr: like what you like, and don’t judge people based on how fake or real they are about your 'unique' interest. It just makes you look like a sad, whiney douche.
Thanks for that laugh there.
this, right here
this thing
this thing right here, man
we need to recognize and understand and understand this
In that case she should pretent that she is a 11 year old boy to make it really awkward for everybody.
My problem is rose tinted glasses. It's like the new DmC thing. No matter how great the new game actually is, I'm going to look down on it. In a few years I'll look back at this generation with fond memories of all my favorites, but still ignoring the crap, all the while complaining that the current generation is bad. The cycle will repeat until on my death bed I look back and think my whole life was pretty great, except this little dying bit.
1) I've said I know this. 2) I'm admitting I have the problem. That's all there is to it.
The infinitely interwoven layers of hipster, impossible for the eye to follow...
...it is like gazing upon the face of God.
Spock is the Borg one, right?
Manti Te'o was the runner up for the Heisman trophy (biggest individual honor in college football) in large part due to the touching story of his grandmother and girlfriend dying during the season. Yesterday the news broke that the girlfriend never existed.
Carry on.
One of the major justifications I'm seeing for hating on the "new gamers" or the "new nerds" or the "fake nerds" or whatever it is you want to call it is that games get dumbed down. So now we've got the new Devil May Cry and and endless Call of Duty clones and so on as multi-billion dollar companies try to invest billions of dollars in the newly arrived masses. Those multi-billion dollar companies aren't catering to your little niche?
they never were
Back when being a gamer was social suicide games were being produced by companies using resources equal or inferior to what the indie teams of today have to play with.
Except the indie teams working on games today are legion beyond numbering etc, etc. Even before kickstarter started churning out ridiculously niche stuff.
The whole dread issue is just smoke and mirrors. The culture people are mourning the loss of never wavered, if other people can't find it in the mainstream that shouldn't be any of your concern. If you ever really cared you can.
I'm glad you did put this in, because I think it should be recognized:
The need or desire for a community, a safe space, a (sub)culture to identify with, to support us in ways that the "outside world" can't or won't, is not inherently bad or wrong. It's a natural, human thing. We are social beings. And most of us, when we start to form our own identities early in life - separate from our families, our classroom groups, our churches/temples/mosques etc - start by defining ourselves by our interests. It's an easy thing to grasp, an easy way to draw lines between "us" and "them", between "me" and "everyone else" - and again, by itself this is not bad. It's vital. Without boundaries or distinctions, "me" cannot exist as a discrete entity.
(And yet, we don't want to be totally alone either; we want to be part of a group that we choose, more compatible than the ones that we're born into or assigned to. That constant tension between individuality and community, wanting our own space yet needing to "belong", is something we all have to deal with as human beings.)
There are, IMO, (at least) two common ways for this to go wrong, however. One is when those initial, possibly superficial choices are never reexamined and reevaluated, but are uncritically reinforced and internalized. (From "I like X" to "I AM X.") The things you liked as a child or adolescent are not the same as who you are, especially not when you're twice the age (or more) that you were when you first began to consider the matter. The second is when those natural and necessary boundaries are drawn so aggressively that they become as fortified and impassible as the Berlin Wall or the Korean DMZ: from "I like X" to "and I HATE anyone who doesn't!" Again, it should be acknowledged: this can be the result of a natural defensive reaction to harassment and even persecution. But it can become more of a hindrance than a useful adaption when one continues to drag around a heavy shell one doesn't actually need anymore, or when the instinct to lash out overrides reason and/or triggers on false positives.
Yes, others have said that. But:
1. I get in arguments and sometimes even worse with people who are unquestionably "legitimately" in my hobbies all the time. It's possible to disagree with and even strongly dislike someone, yet still acknowledge that they are part of the tribe.
2. That was how many years ago? For sanity's sake, there's got to be some kind of statute of limitation on these things. Let it go.*
(* I say this, yet know it won't happen, because if there's one thing humans are good at besides making tools and filling up the planet, it's holding grudges. People all over said planet are and have been killing each other for hundreds if not thousands of years while shouting, "he started it!")
.. and what better chance for reconciliation, than to know you now share common interests with someone who used to torment you, and you might have the chance to make an enemy out of a friend? It's not as if there aren't bullies even within "Real X subculture". A profoundly aggravating memory from my time playing serious chess is that people would use your ability at chess as a social yardstick. Like I get if two top end players want to go over a game at a level I can't understand without being disturbed, but just because you're two classes higher rated than me, that doesn't mean that my opinions about politics or literature or other unrelated topics are automatically meritless.
However, I stand by my claim that there is a useful definition of a "fake gamer" as detailed above, and it isn't about how deep your passion goes, but whether or not you're pretending to have one for an ulterior motive. Or to steal from Fight Club, you don't have to have giant-ass man-boobs like Robert Paulsen to hang around Men Remaining Men, but I'll damn sure call out Tyler and Marla for what they are.
who are you calling out
can you give an example, Grand Inquisitor?
I mean, if it's this pervasive a problem that you feel the need to stamp your feet and say NO MORE, then you should be able to illustrate an example of this, no?
Not some kind of generic "the sort of people who..."
You're on the internet. Provide links.
The only way I could care about the fake geek girl thing (or fake geek boy) is if they were using it to gain some personal advantage through duplicity. I think everyone could imagine a scenario where someone feigned interest in something to get what they wanted, be that gaming, sports or what have you. Now, people I didn't like in high school now enjoying the things I enjoyed back then? Hey, that's just more targets to shoot / chop at online.
I'm a little dubious on those who have portal shirts, plushies and endlessly recite lines - but that certainly doesn't diminish my hobby in any way.
Not just girls in this case, but right. As to @A Very Perturbed Marmoset, what does feeling like carpetbaggers are swarming your hobbies have to do with being a jerk to the newcomers? Nobody is making you interact with the "fake" geeks, so I don't understand what the problem is for people.
Do you deny that there exist people who feign interest in a hobby (while actually having none) for ulterior motives such as fame or financial gain?
Pony can't, apparently.
Where are these people?
You don't get to weasel out of showing examples by saying 'can't you imagine people who do this thing? CAN'T YOU?'
Yeah it turns out that stereotype exists in vast numbers.
The closest I can think of is shit like booth babes at cons and I'd rather that they weren't used.
But that's not quite the same level of "fake geek" you seem to think exists.
AlphaLackey can't, apparently.
But I don't see that as a problem by any stretch of the imagination.
I don't think I've ever seen people actually fake interest in something... I've seen a lot of people trying way too hard to be interested in something only to find out they aren't really after a few weeks though.
Yes, as do black thieves. But taking the stance of "poor perfect girl gamers that have to deal with mouthbreathers" does not help anyone. If they looked like a Man o War cover the issue would still be there.
On the other hand, I only know a fugly permavirgin neckbeard mouthbreather and he is not a nerd by any stretch of the word. I don't like to put up with toxic stereotypes even if they are directed at people I don't like.