What kind of gains are you honestly going to see using restrict? I can't see much necessity for it.
less register tension. Without restrict every time you read or write to a pointer you need to copy the value to a register first and modify
it there. If you know that no other pointer is aliased directly to that pointer you get the benefit of directly changing the pointers value.
Edited: restrict can cut both ways. You can increase register usage or reduce it. The primary benefit is more room for the compiler to reorder instructions or do vector operations.
What kind of gains are you honestly going to see using restrict? I can't see much necessity for it.
Pretty huge ones in the right situations, orders of magnitude potentially. Knowing what it is now, it basically would remove a lot of the need to hand-optimize or write assembly critical sections of code. Instead of bastardizing your code in C or ASM you can write it mostly straight-forward while avoiding data dependencies (data hazards).
It is "fixing" the kinds of things I had to do "magic" for before, I'm not doing anything with that anymore but if I ever go back to it I'll definitely see if restrict is in play.
That makes a bit more sense in my mind, thanks you two.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
0
KakodaimonosCode fondlerHelping the 1% get richerRegistered Userregular
Man, I love it when you hit a chunk of code and you're all "Now why in the hell would anyone ever think that would work?"
Had to spend the morning unwinding all of the changes the new guy made to the python byte packing we do for our message layer.
And they really don't seem to be teaching new grads how bit shifting works. He was utterly lost when I started explaining how to shift the data into a ulong and unpack it.
Man, I love it when you hit a chunk of code and you're all "Now why in the hell would anyone ever think that would work?"
Had to spend the morning unwinding all of the changes the new guy made to the python byte packing we do for our message layer.
And they really don't seem to be teaching new grads how bit shifting works. He was utterly lost when I started explaining how to shift the data into a ulong and unpack it.
Man, I love it when you hit a chunk of code and you're all "Now why in the hell would anyone ever think that would work?"
Had to spend the morning unwinding all of the changes the new guy made to the python byte packing we do for our message layer.
And they really don't seem to be teaching new grads how bit shifting works. He was utterly lost when I started explaining how to shift the data into a ulong and unpack it.
Aren't you just reinterpret casting the memory reference to be a ulong array? Or do you have a non contiguous collection that you need to pack? I normally think of packing as being easier to reason about if you think of raw memory references. So when I have non contiguous items that need to be packed I generally just copy them to contiguous memory and pack that ( unless it becomes a time / memory bottleneck ).
Bitmasking is a lost technique from when memory was important. Flags seem to have gone the way of the dodo. I still like the concept and like to use it.
Especially useful when pulling octets from an int based IP address.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Bitmasking is a lost technique from when memory was important. Flags seem to have gone the way of the dodo. I still like the concept and like to use it.
Especially useful when pulling octets from an int based IP address.
I still find bitmasking to be useful in SQL where dynamically declaring columns is not something you want to even think about doing.
Man, I love it when you hit a chunk of code and you're all "Now why in the hell would anyone ever think that would work?"
Had to spend the morning unwinding all of the changes the new guy made to the python byte packing we do for our message layer.
And they really don't seem to be teaching new grads how bit shifting works. He was utterly lost when I started explaining how to shift the data into a ulong and unpack it.
Aren't you just reinterpret casting the memory reference to be a ulong array? Or do you have a non contiguous collection that you need to pack? I normally think of packing as being easier to reason about if you think of raw memory references. So when I have non contiguous items that need to be packed I generally just copy them to contiguous memory and pack that ( unless it becomes a time / memory bottleneck ).
It's a non-contiguous custom data structure. We do a forced pack to send these suckers over the wire so we aren't wasting space when we're trying to drop a few hundred thousand of them out there.
Got an example? Don't think I've ever ran across that gjaustin.
It's really useful when writing a search algorithm and you want to calculate how many hits you have.
OPEN SearchCursor
FETCH NEXT FROM SearchCursor INTO @RelevanceExponent, @Term, @MatchType, @MatchTable
WHILE @@FETCH_STATUS = 0
BEGIN
-- By flagging a bit in the relevance column, we can track exactly which term caused the hit
-- These hits are then combined with a bitwise OR. This prevents double counting a hit.
IF (@RelevanceExponent = 31)
BEGIN
-- Special case, since x8000 is actually a negative number we can't get it with the POWER function
SET @RelevanceValue = 0x8000
END
ELSE
BEGIN
SET @RelevanceValue = POWER(2, @RelevanceExponent)
END
IF (@MatchType LIKE 'AND')
BEGIN
-- Later on we'll AND this value against the relevance for a returned row.
-- If the result doesn't still match this value, that means that the row didn't meet all the AND requirements
SET @AndRelevanceMask = @AndRelevanceMask | @RelevanceValue
END
IF (@MatchTable = '' OR @MatchTable LIKE 'Foo')
BEGIN
UPDATE @FooIDs
SET Relevance = Relevance | @RelevanceValue
FROM @FooIDs FooIDs
INNER JOIN Foo ON FooIDs.FooID = Foo.FooID
WHERE (Foo.Name LIKE @Term
OR Foo.Abbr LIKE @Term
OR Foo.Description LIKE @Term)
END
IF (@MatchTable = '' OR @MatchTable LIKE 'Bar')
BEGIN
UPDATE @BarIDs
SET Relevance = Relevance | @RelevanceValue
FROM @BarIDs BarIDs
INNER JOIN BarON BarIDs.BarID = Bar.BarID
WHERE (Bar.Name LIKE @Term
OR Bar.Abbr LIKE @Term
OR Bar.Description LIKE @Term)
END
-- If we're doing an AND match on a specific table, we can delete unmatched IDs
-- This doesn't replace the later check, as we could have an AND without a table or multiple AND matches
IF (@MatchType LIKE 'AND')
BEGIN
IF (@MatchTable LIKE 'Foo')
BEGIN
DELETE FROM @FooIDs
WHERE (Relevance & @RelevanceValue) <> @RelevanceValue
END
IF (@MatchTable LIKE 'Bar')
BEGIN
DELETE FROM @BarIDs
WHERE (Relevance & @RelevanceValue) <> @RelevanceValue
END
END
FETCH NEXT FROM SearchCursor INTO @RelevanceExponent, @Term, @MatchType, @MatchTable
END
Then later on:
SELECT top (@MaxRows)
Foo.Name,
Bar.Description,
dbo.fnBitCount(ISNULL(FooIDs.Relevance, 0) -- fnBitCount allows us to calculate exactly how many terms were hit by this row
| ISNULL(BarIDs.Relevance, 0)) AS HitCount,
dbo.fnBitCount(ISNULL(FooIDs.Relevance, 0) -- fnBitCount allows us to calculate exactly how many terms were hit by this row
| ISNULL(BarIDs.Relevance, 0)) / @TermCount AS Relevance
FROM Data
LEFT OUTER JOIN @FooIDs FooIDs
ON Data.FooID = FooIDs.FooID
LEFT OUTER JOIN @BarIDs BarIDs
ON Data.BarID = BarIDs.BarID
It really doesn't matter if you use it directly or not.
If you made it through a four-year Computer Science degree, you should just know this shit conceptually. Engineers know it better in my experience. I can explain it to a non-sciences non-math person without much difficulty.
The work I've seen submitted in a fourth year course on real-time systems with prereqs of second and third year architecture courses, where you will be doing FPGA logic, and not understanding bitmasking? Shit should be a warcrime.
How do you expect to do digital circuit logic when you don't even understand bitmasking.
@infidel I've noticed less and less people understand how memory even works, meaning how a byte is a collection of bits, so going down a level and understanding bit masking would require those fundamentals first.
Seems like comp-sci is pumping out high level abstracted coders more than people who understand software as a concept?
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
i have almost no grasp of applied bit-level programming
but i have an excuse
i didn't go to college
+1
KakodaimonosCode fondlerHelping the 1% get richerRegistered Userregular
And then all the recruiters whine that comp-sci graduates don't know the latest Java release or .Net.
I know my company is somewhat unusual in that we actually need people who understand the low-level abstractions and how to actually write serious high-performance code, but it's still surprising to see how little the new grads know when we interview them.
i have almost no grasp of applied bit-level programming
but i have an excuse
i didn't go to college
You could probably give a good answer knowing how bits and bytes interact. They didn't teach us in my degree, either, so, I know it's pretty common to not know that kind of thing. Didn't even really teach proper memory management. Just sort of lumped it together with "you know the basics, extrapolate, because we're moving on."
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
@infidel I've noticed less and less people understand how memory even works, meaning how a byte is a collection of bits, so going down a level and understanding bit masking would require those fundamentals first.
Seems like comp-sci is pumping out high level abstracted coders more than people who understand software as a concept?
Some people are just fine without getting into the lower level knowledge.
But I do a lot of tutoring and training and establishing concepts on how memory works has always improved grades and competency in general.
Man, I love it when you hit a chunk of code and you're all "Now why in the hell would anyone ever think that would work?"
Had to spend the morning unwinding all of the changes the new guy made to the python byte packing we do for our message layer.
And they really don't seem to be teaching new grads how bit shifting works. He was utterly lost when I started explaining how to shift the data into a ulong and unpack it.
Aren't you just reinterpret casting the memory reference to be a ulong array? Or do you have a non contiguous collection that you need to pack? I normally think of packing as being easier to reason about if you think of raw memory references. So when I have non contiguous items that need to be packed I generally just copy them to contiguous memory and pack that ( unless it becomes a time / memory bottleneck ).
It's a non-contiguous custom data structure. We do a forced pack to send these suckers over the wire so we aren't wasting space when we're trying to drop a few hundred thousand of them out there.
That should be pretty easy than, presuming you are padding the class to be unsigned long aligned.
@infidel I've noticed less and less people understand how memory even works, meaning how a byte is a collection of bits, so going down a level and understanding bit masking would require those fundamentals first.
Seems like comp-sci is pumping out high level abstracted coders more than people who understand software as a concept?
Some people are just fine without getting into the lower level knowledge.
But I do a lot of tutoring and training and establishing concepts on how memory works has always improved grades and competency in general.
I think I remember you posting that infographic you made like... 6ish years ago when I was first going through my degree. That really solidified my shaky knowledge, I know that. Either it was you or ecco. I can't remember.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
And then all the recruiters whine that comp-sci graduates don't know the latest Java release or .Net.
I know my company is somewhat unusual in that we actually need people who understand the low-level abstractions and how to actually write serious high-performance code, but it's still surprising to see how little the new grads know when we interview them.
And then all the recruiters whine that comp-sci graduates don't know the latest Java release or .Net.
I know my company is somewhat unusual in that we actually need people who understand the low-level abstractions and how to actually write serious high-performance code, but it's still surprising to see how little the new grads know when we interview them.
So do you guys hire remote workers?
And is it flex time?
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
@infidel I've noticed less and less people understand how memory even works, meaning how a byte is a collection of bits, so going down a level and understanding bit masking would require those fundamentals first.
Seems like comp-sci is pumping out high level abstracted coders more than people who understand software as a concept?
Some people are just fine without getting into the lower level knowledge.
But I do a lot of tutoring and training and establishing concepts on how memory works has always improved grades and competency in general.
I think I remember you posting that infographic you made like... 6ish years ago when I was first going through my degree. That really solidified my shaky knowledge, I know that. Either it was you or ecco. I can't remember.
Apparently May 2009 for the "beginner's thread" as I how-do-mine-4-pointers primer.
Or you might be thinking of something else, I think I've made large posts on that topic a few times. But I think that is the only one I used images for convenience.
Man, I love it when you hit a chunk of code and you're all "Now why in the hell would anyone ever think that would work?"
Had to spend the morning unwinding all of the changes the new guy made to the python byte packing we do for our message layer.
And they really don't seem to be teaching new grads how bit shifting works. He was utterly lost when I started explaining how to shift the data into a ulong and unpack it.
Aren't you just reinterpret casting the memory reference to be a ulong array? Or do you have a non contiguous collection that you need to pack? I normally think of packing as being easier to reason about if you think of raw memory references. So when I have non contiguous items that need to be packed I generally just copy them to contiguous memory and pack that ( unless it becomes a time / memory bottleneck ).
It's a non-contiguous custom data structure. We do a forced pack to send these suckers over the wire so we aren't wasting space when we're trying to drop a few hundred thousand of them out there.
That should be pretty easy than, presuming you are padding the class to be unsigned long aligned.
@infidel I've noticed less and less people understand how memory even works, meaning how a byte is a collection of bits, so going down a level and understanding bit masking would require those fundamentals first.
Seems like comp-sci is pumping out high level abstracted coders more than people who understand software as a concept?
Some people are just fine without getting into the lower level knowledge.
But I do a lot of tutoring and training and establishing concepts on how memory works has always improved grades and competency in general.
I think I remember you posting that infographic you made like... 6ish years ago when I was first going through my degree. That really solidified my shaky knowledge, I know that. Either it was you or ecco. I can't remember.
Apparently May 2009 for the "beginner's thread" as I how-do-mine-4-pointers primer.
Or you might be thinking of something else, I think I've made large posts on that topic a few times. But I think that is the only one I used images for convenience.
Yeah I think you've done it a few times before that, that's the one that sticks out in my memory though.
You should make a blog on padev for it.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Man, I love it when you hit a chunk of code and you're all "Now why in the hell would anyone ever think that would work?"
Had to spend the morning unwinding all of the changes the new guy made to the python byte packing we do for our message layer.
And they really don't seem to be teaching new grads how bit shifting works. He was utterly lost when I started explaining how to shift the data into a ulong and unpack it.
Aren't you just reinterpret casting the memory reference to be a ulong array? Or do you have a non contiguous collection that you need to pack? I normally think of packing as being easier to reason about if you think of raw memory references. So when I have non contiguous items that need to be packed I generally just copy them to contiguous memory and pack that ( unless it becomes a time / memory bottleneck ).
It's a non-contiguous custom data structure. We do a forced pack to send these suckers over the wire so we aren't wasting space when we're trying to drop a few hundred thousand of them out there.
That should be pretty easy than, presuming you are padding the class to be unsigned long aligned.
@infidel I've noticed less and less people understand how memory even works, meaning how a byte is a collection of bits, so going down a level and understanding bit masking would require those fundamentals first.
Seems like comp-sci is pumping out high level abstracted coders more than people who understand software as a concept?
Some people are just fine without getting into the lower level knowledge.
But I do a lot of tutoring and training and establishing concepts on how memory works has always improved grades and competency in general.
I think I remember you posting that infographic you made like... 6ish years ago when I was first going through my degree. That really solidified my shaky knowledge, I know that. Either it was you or ecco. I can't remember.
Apparently May 2009 for the "beginner's thread" as I how-do-mine-4-pointers primer.
Or you might be thinking of something else, I think I've made large posts on that topic a few times. But I think that is the only one I used images for convenience.
Alts and general trolling. Tube never really got much more in depth than that I don't think. I don't want to ping him because I don't know how annoying that is when people do that to you as a mod.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Posts
Also you don't have much to lose using it because if your compiler doesn't support it then oh well, it just won't optimize with that feature.
less register tension. Without restrict every time you read or write to a pointer you need to copy the value to a register first and modify
it there. If you know that no other pointer is aliased directly to that pointer you get the benefit of directly changing the pointers value.
Edited: restrict can cut both ways. You can increase register usage or reduce it. The primary benefit is more room for the compiler to reorder instructions or do vector operations.
Pretty huge ones in the right situations, orders of magnitude potentially. Knowing what it is now, it basically would remove a lot of the need to hand-optimize or write assembly critical sections of code. Instead of bastardizing your code in C or ASM you can write it mostly straight-forward while avoiding data dependencies (data hazards).
It is "fixing" the kinds of things I had to do "magic" for before, I'm not doing anything with that anymore but if I ever go back to it I'll definitely see if restrict is in play.
Had to spend the morning unwinding all of the changes the new guy made to the python byte packing we do for our message layer.
And they really don't seem to be teaching new grads how bit shifting works. He was utterly lost when I started explaining how to shift the data into a ulong and unpack it.
The majority can't do bitmasking.
Aren't you just reinterpret casting the memory reference to be a ulong array? Or do you have a non contiguous collection that you need to pack? I normally think of packing as being easier to reason about if you think of raw memory references. So when I have non contiguous items that need to be packed I generally just copy them to contiguous memory and pack that ( unless it becomes a time / memory bottleneck ).
Especially useful when pulling octets from an int based IP address.
I still find bitmasking to be useful in SQL where dynamically declaring columns is not something you want to even think about doing.
Yeah, just let me clean it up so that I'm not posting proprietary code
It's a non-contiguous custom data structure. We do a forced pack to send these suckers over the wire so we aren't wasting space when we're trying to drop a few hundred thousand of them out there.
It's really useful when writing a search algorithm and you want to calculate how many hits you have.
OPEN SearchCursor FETCH NEXT FROM SearchCursor INTO @RelevanceExponent, @Term, @MatchType, @MatchTable WHILE @@FETCH_STATUS = 0 BEGIN -- By flagging a bit in the relevance column, we can track exactly which term caused the hit -- These hits are then combined with a bitwise OR. This prevents double counting a hit. IF (@RelevanceExponent = 31) BEGIN -- Special case, since x8000 is actually a negative number we can't get it with the POWER function SET @RelevanceValue = 0x8000 END ELSE BEGIN SET @RelevanceValue = POWER(2, @RelevanceExponent) END IF (@MatchType LIKE 'AND') BEGIN -- Later on we'll AND this value against the relevance for a returned row. -- If the result doesn't still match this value, that means that the row didn't meet all the AND requirements SET @AndRelevanceMask = @AndRelevanceMask | @RelevanceValue END IF (@MatchTable = '' OR @MatchTable LIKE 'Foo') BEGIN UPDATE @FooIDs SET Relevance = Relevance | @RelevanceValue FROM @FooIDs FooIDs INNER JOIN Foo ON FooIDs.FooID = Foo.FooID WHERE (Foo.Name LIKE @Term OR Foo.Abbr LIKE @Term OR Foo.Description LIKE @Term) END IF (@MatchTable = '' OR @MatchTable LIKE 'Bar') BEGIN UPDATE @BarIDs SET Relevance = Relevance | @RelevanceValue FROM @BarIDs BarIDs INNER JOIN BarON BarIDs.BarID = Bar.BarID WHERE (Bar.Name LIKE @Term OR Bar.Abbr LIKE @Term OR Bar.Description LIKE @Term) END -- If we're doing an AND match on a specific table, we can delete unmatched IDs -- This doesn't replace the later check, as we could have an AND without a table or multiple AND matches IF (@MatchType LIKE 'AND') BEGIN IF (@MatchTable LIKE 'Foo') BEGIN DELETE FROM @FooIDs WHERE (Relevance & @RelevanceValue) <> @RelevanceValue END IF (@MatchTable LIKE 'Bar') BEGIN DELETE FROM @BarIDs WHERE (Relevance & @RelevanceValue) <> @RelevanceValue END END FETCH NEXT FROM SearchCursor INTO @RelevanceExponent, @Term, @MatchType, @MatchTable ENDThen later on:
SELECT top (@MaxRows) Foo.Name, Bar.Description, dbo.fnBitCount(ISNULL(FooIDs.Relevance, 0) -- fnBitCount allows us to calculate exactly how many terms were hit by this row | ISNULL(BarIDs.Relevance, 0)) AS HitCount, dbo.fnBitCount(ISNULL(FooIDs.Relevance, 0) -- fnBitCount allows us to calculate exactly how many terms were hit by this row | ISNULL(BarIDs.Relevance, 0)) / @TermCount AS Relevance FROM Data LEFT OUTER JOIN @FooIDs FooIDs ON Data.FooID = FooIDs.FooID LEFT OUTER JOIN @BarIDs BarIDs ON Data.BarID = BarIDs.BarIDIf you made it through a four-year Computer Science degree, you should just know this shit conceptually. Engineers know it better in my experience. I can explain it to a non-sciences non-math person without much difficulty.
The work I've seen submitted in a fourth year course on real-time systems with prereqs of second and third year architecture courses, where you will be doing FPGA logic, and not understanding bitmasking? Shit should be a warcrime.
How do you expect to do digital circuit logic when you don't even understand bitmasking.
Seems like comp-sci is pumping out high level abstracted coders more than people who understand software as a concept?
but i have an excuse
i didn't go to college
I know my company is somewhat unusual in that we actually need people who understand the low-level abstractions and how to actually write serious high-performance code, but it's still surprising to see how little the new grads know when we interview them.
You could probably give a good answer knowing how bits and bytes interact. They didn't teach us in my degree, either, so, I know it's pretty common to not know that kind of thing. Didn't even really teach proper memory management. Just sort of lumped it together with "you know the basics, extrapolate, because we're moving on."
Some people are just fine without getting into the lower level knowledge.
But I do a lot of tutoring and training and establishing concepts on how memory works has always improved grades and competency in general.
That should be pretty easy than, presuming you are padding the class to be unsigned long aligned.
const std::size_t itemLength = sizeof(DataStructure) / sizeof(unsigned long); const std::size_t length = numberOfItems * itemLength; unsigned long* storage = new unsigned long[ length ] unsigned long* current = storage; for(std::size_t i=0; i < numberOfItems; ++i) { DataStructure* item = getDataStructure(i); unsigned long* start = reinterpret_cast<unsigned long*>(item); std::copy( start, start + itemLength, current ); curent += itemLength; }I am ignoring the possibility of pointers which would make this even more enjoyable.
I think I remember you posting that infographic you made like... 6ish years ago when I was first going through my degree. That really solidified my shaky knowledge, I know that. Either it was you or ecco. I can't remember.
I hope there's no one on the forums called @RelevanceValue, @RelevanceMask, @FooIDs, or @BarIDs. Because I just pinged them 20 times each.
@IcyLiquid - Would it be possible to get the code tags to ignore the @ logic?
So do you guys hire remote workers?
And is it flex time?
Apparently May 2009 for the "beginner's thread" as I how-do-mine-4-pointers primer.
Or you might be thinking of something else, I think I've made large posts on that topic a few times. But I think that is the only one I used images for convenience.
He did say he was packing Python, so I would expect there to be some pointers somewhere
Yeah I think you've done it a few times before that, that's the one that sticks out in my memory though.
You should make a blog on padev for it.
Stop getting in my way of ignoring the facts!
Wait, when was Obs banned?
Alts and general trolling. Tube never really got much more in depth than that I don't think. I don't want to ping him because I don't know how annoying that is when people do that to you as a mod.