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[Tactics Games] Love or hate em? Why?

FizzleFizzle Player of GamesRegistered User regular
I've really been impressed by Fire Emblem lately, and it got me thinking back to some very fond memories with Final Fantasy Tactics and a few other games of that ilk. Curious to hear what other folks think about Tactics.

I'll start.

Love:
- Character evolution between battles. I don't generally enjoy grind, but for some reason I really enjoy shaping my army over time.
- Decision depth. Always liked chess and I sort of view tactics games as chess lite.
- Replayability. Different army every time, different interactions.

Dislike:
- PvE. All of them (with the exception of Hero Academy) seem to focus on play against an AI, which is a bit of a bummer.
- Balance. Always seems to be some uber unit that undermines some of the enjoyment. Think this is a product of me over-grinding and AI though. :D

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Posts

  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    I actually prefer the fact that they are PvE.

    For one thing, I don't always feel like going head to head against another person.

    For another, I don't need an internet connection to play them. I don't always have (or want to use) an internet connection when I'm playing games. Games that are self-contained rate pretty highly in my books nowadays.

  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited February 2013
    Tactical games tend to have well developed character building systems which are pretty open for neat combinations of skills and characters. I'm a big fan of that sort of thing regardless of where it is found.

    PvP would be a nice feature. I'd sort of like to see more tactical combat multilayer stuff at least as an option. Maybe a system for sharing more badass combo with other's would help with this too. Like a chevo system that would give you the option of uploading a video if you pulled off a 16 hit combo, or whatever.

    I don't know. You spend tens of hours grinding on the block of shapeless statics into a finely crafted idol of death and destruction, and you never get to share it with anyone.

    Turn based multiplayer is frequently dull(waiting for people is boring), and balancing would tend to take some work.

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  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] As elusive as doubt Registered User regular
    Delmain wrote: »
    I actually prefer the fact that they are PvE.

    For one thing, I don't always feel like going head to head against another person.

    For another, I don't need an internet connection to play them. I don't always have (or want to use) an internet connection when I'm playing games. Games that are self-contained rate pretty highly in my books nowadays.

    Its a shame that games like this are starting to become the exception.

    I had to wait for steam to update the other night when I wanted to play civ 5. Bullshit, is what that was.

    mvaYcgc.jpg
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    It is an eternal shame that we're never going to get Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition Tactics. I'm hoping that the success of XCom is going to lead to some fresh attempts at a variety of tactics games.

  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    Persistent leveling is poison to PvP.

    The only way to make PvP work in a tactics game is to remove the grind and replace it with a points system.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    Persistent leveling is poison to PvP.

    The only way to make PvP work in a tactics game is to remove the grind and replace it with a points system.

    And that's why the best ones are all PvE-centric, in my opinion. Half the fun of the game is shepherding your tiny little crew of mercenaries or what have you from an ineffective rabble into a well oiled machine.

  • FizzleFizzle Player of Games Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    SammyF wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Persistent leveling is poison to PvP.

    The only way to make PvP work in a tactics game is to remove the grind and replace it with a points system.

    And that's why the best ones are all PvE-centric, in my opinion. Half the fun of the game is shepherding your tiny little crew of mercenaries or what have you from an ineffective rabble into a well oiled machine.

    Why not just assign a weight to each unit according to it's progress (Mage Level 1: 1 point, Mage 3: 3 points, Wizard 1: 5 points) and then pit armies of similar weight against each other? That way you could still have the progression, but folks would be fighting armies of similar strength.

    Fizzle on
  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    The balancing would be terrible. It's hard enough figuring out how the value of a knight compares to a mage without factoring in level differentials.

    I haven't played beyond the demo, but I liked how Skull of the Samurai did it on XBLA -- all footmen are created equal at the start of the battle, but they can develop further on the field.

    SammyF on
  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    Additionally, trying to match armies with equal points against each other would result in segmenting the user base. You would need many more people actively playing in order to actually find a match, because 9 out of 10 players would not be matchable against you. For a genre that's already somewhat niche, this would absolutely kill the multiplayer.

    Garthor on
  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] As elusive as doubt Registered User regular
    Anyone care to list or link to some of these games? The only experience I have with the genre is XCOM Enemy Unknown, which I realize isn't at all an RPG but I enjoyed it a great deal and would love to see a similar team-building, turn based fighting game with a good story to boot.

    mvaYcgc.jpg
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Western coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderator mod
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    Anyone care to list or link to some of these games? The only experience I have with the genre is XCOM Enemy Unknown, which I realize isn't at all an RPG but I enjoyed it a great deal and would love to see a similar team-building, turn based fighting game with a good story to boot.

    The entire Fire Emblem series, Final Fantasy Tactics, the original XCOM, its sequel Terror from the Deep, XCOM: Apocalypse, and the Advance War series are all ones I can suggest looking at off the top of my head.

    There are man others but those are just what occurred to me. If you wanna try something aged, but similar, the entire XCOM series (until the recent one) are in one big Steam pack for like fifteen dollars.

    Though I bought it on sale for two.

  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] As elusive as doubt Registered User regular
    Thanks.

    mvaYcgc.jpg
  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    [Tycho?] wrote: »
    Anyone care to list or link to some of these games? The only experience I have with the genre is XCOM Enemy Unknown, which I realize isn't at all an RPG but I enjoyed it a great deal and would love to see a similar team-building, turn based fighting game with a good story to boot.

    Jagged Alliance 2

    Silent Storm

    Fallout Tactics

    I am kind of giddy for you at the thought that I just introduced you to three fantastic tactics games that can be yours in a matter of minutes for less than $30.

  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    Garthor wrote: »
    Additionally, trying to match armies with equal points against each other would result in segmenting the user base. You would need many more people actively playing in order to actually find a match, because 9 out of 10 players would not be matchable against you. For a genre that's already somewhat niche, this would absolutely kill the multiplayer.

    You know what, that's absolutely true and the best point to be made. It's hard enough to find an opponent who won't quit half way through a game when a critical roll doesn't go his way or something.

  • FizzleFizzle Player of Games Registered User regular
    SammyF wrote: »
    Garthor wrote: »
    Additionally, trying to match armies with equal points against each other would result in segmenting the user base. You would need many more people actively playing in order to actually find a match, because 9 out of 10 players would not be matchable against you. For a genre that's already somewhat niche, this would absolutely kill the multiplayer.

    You know what, that's absolutely true and the best point to be made. It's hard enough to find an opponent who won't quit half way through a game when a critical roll doesn't go his way or something.

    The quitting aspect was what made it really hard for me to get into Hero Academy. So many games that just stopped halfway through. Loved that they brought another offering like that to mobile though.

  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    Love love love Tactics games. Especially the Final Fantasy Tactics series of games (original, advance, advance 2). Been itching for Square to tap into that market again.

    Been playing the Disgaea series as well, but I usually burn out on those before I get to the end.

  • FizzleFizzle Player of Games Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    What'd you like best silence? You ever try Tactics: Ogre?

    Agree re Disgaea. I always had a blast diving into the weapons and the colored tile mechanics are pretty fun to play around with as well. Definitely adds a layer of depth to the experience. I'll admit that I have a preference for FFT's character progression though -- really liked playing around with all of the classes.

    Fizzle on
  • FizzleFizzle Player of Games Registered User regular
    It is to my great shame that I admit I never played Advance Wars.

  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Western coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderator mod
    I'm sad they haven't made one since 2008. I enjoyed the last one a lot, but was kind of disappointed by some of the choices in game design (didn't like most flying units for one thing)

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I think TBS gamers could really use something like RPG maker. The genre is generally equivalent to a tabletop war game with too much math, which should be relatively easy to code for.

  • FizzleFizzle Player of Games Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I think TBS gamers could really use something like RPG maker. The genre is generally equivalent to a tabletop war game with too much math, which should be relatively easy to code for.

    I'd settle for a unit editor and a map editor!

  • furlionfurlion Riskbreaker Lea MondeRegistered User regular
    This is hands down my favorite genre ever since I rented Final Fantasy Tactics way back in the day. Anyone who enjoys the original FFT should really check out Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together. It is the older sibling of FFT being developed by almost the same team before they were bought by Squaresoft. FFT definitely wins as my favorite of the genre but TO is a very close second. Also the PSP version of Wild Arms is a decent take on the genre with a few interesting twists that keep it unique. I even bought FFX-II since it was supposed to have a deep job system. It was interesting enough right up until the characters started having to dress in BDSM fetish gear. No problem with sex in my games but it just absolutely destroyed my immersion.

    Personally I love the abiliy to mix and match skills and abilities to create new combinations of characters. Like the Samuari class having abilities that benefit from Magic Strength making it an excellent secondary on Wizards. The games also tend to have deeper stories, or at least better stories then many games in other genres. In other RPG's your character is stuck in whatever role the developer decided for you, whereas here there is much more freedom. I also really appreciate game mechanics that try and mirror reality closely. For instance FFT's weather, terrain, and height effects.

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  • FizzleFizzle Player of Games Registered User regular
    furlion wrote: »
    This is hands down my favorite genre ever since I rented Final Fantasy Tactics way back in the day. Anyone who enjoys the original FFT should really check out Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together. It is the older sibling of FFT being developed by almost the same team before they were bought by Squaresoft. FFT definitely wins as my favorite of the genre but TO is a very close second. Also the PSP version of Wild Arms is a decent take on the genre with a few interesting twists that keep it unique. I even bought FFX-II since it was supposed to have a deep job system. It was interesting enough right up until the characters started having to dress in BDSM fetish gear. No problem with sex in my games but it just absolutely destroyed my immersion.

    Personally I love the abiliy to mix and match skills and abilities to create new combinations of characters. Like the Samuari class having abilities that benefit from Magic Strength making it an excellent secondary on Wizards. The games also tend to have deeper stories, or at least better stories then many games in other genres. In other RPG's your character is stuck in whatever role the developer decided for you, whereas here there is much more freedom. I also really appreciate game mechanics that try and mirror reality closely. For instance FFT's weather, terrain, and height effects.

    Solid post. Did you ever play Ogre Battle? I often view that as ancestor of the more modern tactics games. Still probably one of my favorite games of all time.

  • DissociaterDissociater Registered User regular
    I generally quite like them. FFT blew me away when I was a kid. One roadblock I get with them though is when some games have 'random' encounters, or fights that don't actively move the story or game forward. Early on in the game I like these because I'm still all excited about the combat, and leveling characters, picking jobs, testing new spells, etc. But when you're around the 15 hour mark they get tedious.

    I'm sure I'm not the only one who would take one of those bar away missions to get some exp for your characters in FFT and then would walk back and forth between cities to hit the number of days required for the mission, saving at almost every 'safe' dot and restarting the game if one of the red ones ended up in a fight!

  • ZenitramZenitram Registered User regular
    Jagged Alliance 2 is unparalleled when it comes to depth, and is still being modded today. There's quite a learning curve with the community patch though.

  • iguanacusiguanacus Desert PlanetRegistered User regular
    Still waiting on a true Shining Force sequel. Some great memories of those games.

  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    Love:
    - Character evolution between battles. I don't generally enjoy grind, but for some reason I really enjoy shaping my army over time.
    - Decision depth. Always liked chess and I sort of view tactics games as chess lite.
    - Replayability. Different army every time, different interactions.

    Dislike:
    - PvE. All of them (with the exception of Hero Academy) seem to focus on play against an AI, which is a bit of a bummer.
    - Balance. Always seems to be some uber unit that undermines some of the enjoyment. Think this is a product of me over-grinding and AI though.
    My list would be almost exactly the same. Actually I wouldn't mind the PvE, except that the AI is always terrible.

  • VladimusVladimus Registered User regular
    I seriously don't want to know how many hundreds of hours I've put into Final Fantasy Tactics.

    Vandal Hearts was kind of terribly over the top, so much that I never gave the sequel a look, though it's widely thought it's the better of the two.

    Jean d'Arc on psp is a fun little aside, not hard just fun.

    Some friends of mine say good things about nippon ichi's other tactical games, la Pucelle and the like.

  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    Love:
    - Character evolution between battles. I don't generally enjoy grind, but for some reason I really enjoy shaping my army over time.
    - Decision depth. Always liked chess and I sort of view tactics games as chess lite.
    - Replayability. Different army every time, different interactions.

    Dislike:
    - PvE. All of them (with the exception of Hero Academy) seem to focus on play against an AI, which is a bit of a bummer.
    - Balance. Always seems to be some uber unit that undermines some of the enjoyment. Think this is a product of me over-grinding and AI though.
    My list would be almost exactly the same. Actually I wouldn't mind the PvE, except that the AI is always terrible.

    So, so true. Usually in lieu of intelligent maneuvering you're simply pitted against superior numbers with superior equipment and superior base stats.

    XCOM:EU's AI is at least smart enough to move to a flanking position more often than not when you give it the opportunity, and it's rather wicked about punishing your mistakes, but it's hardly brilliant.

  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    Fizzle wrote: »
    What'd you like best silence? You ever try Tactics: Ogre?

    Agree re Disgaea. I always had a blast diving into the weapons and the colored tile mechanics are pretty fun to play around with as well. Definitely adds a layer of depth to the experience. I'll admit that I have a preference for FFT's character progression though -- really liked playing around with all of the classes.

    The original Final Fantasy Tactics is my favorite, simply because I played it when I was a kid and was bad at video games, and basically every part of that first playthrough is stitched to my soul.
    Losing on the very first map because I just hit start and went at it with Ramza and Delita. I didn't know you had 6 extra guys to pick from!
    After I figured out you had up to 5 guys on a map, I didn't know they sold Archer and Knight stuff at the first Castle, so, I went to battle 3 with them barehanded and naked. Suffice to say it did not go well and I lost some dudes FOREVER. This did not sit well with my young self, so I raised the money to hire new guys, name them the exact same, and proceeded to continue the game.
    Grinding for hours and hours and hours on the one map before Golgarand Execution Site, because that fight was so hard and I was cut off from the rest of the map.
    Getting stuck in Riovannes Castle and being unable to beat Wiegraf. Starting a new file with a bit more experience!

    I played Tactics: Ogre, and it was ok, but there were a few things that bugged me about it.
    1) I found grinding enough points to build my troops the way I wanted was more tedious than similar tactics games. Abilities cost a lot of points.
    2) The crafting system was annoying having to save after each steps' success and reload after each steps' failure.
    3) I screwed myself out of getting the Necromancer, and didn't want to go through all the effort to get her the hard way.

    I still made it pretty far in Chapter 4. I have a habit of quitting games before the last dungeon though. I could definitely see its influence on the Final Fantasy Tactics games though.

  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    FFT is my favorite game of all time

    I never beat it

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    It is an eternal shame that we're never going to get Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition Tactics. I'm hoping that the success of XCom is going to lead to some fresh attempts at a variety of tactics games.

    If i had the money, i would make the fuck out of that game.

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  • chrisnlchrisnl Registered User regular
    FFT Deep Dungeon was some of the best times I've had in a video game. The lower levels were still a challenge for my ultimate cheese squad, but damn if I was going to finish the game without learning Zodiac.

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  • GrisloGrislo Registered User regular
    Fizzle wrote: »
    furlion wrote: »
    This is hands down my favorite genre ever since I rented Final Fantasy Tactics way back in the day. Anyone who enjoys the original FFT should really check out Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together. It is the older sibling of FFT being developed by almost the same team before they were bought by Squaresoft. FFT definitely wins as my favorite of the genre but TO is a very close second. Also the PSP version of Wild Arms is a decent take on the genre with a few interesting twists that keep it unique. I even bought FFX-II since it was supposed to have a deep job system. It was interesting enough right up until the characters started having to dress in BDSM fetish gear. No problem with sex in my games but it just absolutely destroyed my immersion.

    Personally I love the abiliy to mix and match skills and abilities to create new combinations of characters. Like the Samuari class having abilities that benefit from Magic Strength making it an excellent secondary on Wizards. The games also tend to have deeper stories, or at least better stories then many games in other genres. In other RPG's your character is stuck in whatever role the developer decided for you, whereas here there is much more freedom. I also really appreciate game mechanics that try and mirror reality closely. For instance FFT's weather, terrain, and height effects.

    Solid post. Did you ever play Ogre Battle? I often view that as ancestor of the more modern tactics games. Still probably one of my favorite games of all time.

    Ogre Battle, while a very good game, is really closer to being an RTS. There's not much to tie it to Tactics Ogre, in terms of pure gameplay.

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  • EriktheVikingGamerEriktheVikingGamer Registered User regular
    Grinding for hours and hours and hours on the one map before Golgarand Execution Site, because that fight was so hard and I was cut off from the rest of the map.
    Getting stuck in Riovannes Castle and being unable to beat Wiegraf. Starting a new file with a bit more experience!

    I remember how hard both of these fights were the first time or two I went through the game myself. Those fights definitely were competency checks for the player. So many fond memories of FFT.

    Also, I'm that one guy who couldn't get into either FFT:A or A2 because of that fracking Judge System. Major bummer because from what else I saw of it there were some pretty awesome game systems in there as far as tactics games go.

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  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    The judge system is much better in A2. Laws are fixed for a battle (sometimes specifically to screw you over, but hey, it's part of the challenge), and for the majority of the battles, all that breaking them does is remove your chosen bonus, prevent you from reviving for the rest of the battle, and make you lose out on extra rewards at the end that don't particuarly matter in the long run.

  • seabassseabass Doctor MassachusettsRegistered User regular
    Mostly it's just that they tend to rely on turn based gameplay. I can play a turn, leisurely take a sip of my drink, look at my chat windows and poke at my buddies, and ask the wife about what she's reading before taking another turn. Thus, the king of tactics games for me was final fantasy tactics on the DS, as I could play a few turns while hitting the john, then get back to whatever it was I was doing.

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  • furlionfurlion Riskbreaker Lea MondeRegistered User regular
    Grislo wrote: »
    Fizzle wrote: »
    furlion wrote: »
    This is hands down my favorite genre ever since I rented Final Fantasy Tactics way back in the day. Anyone who enjoys the original FFT should really check out Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together. It is the older sibling of FFT being developed by almost the same team before they were bought by Squaresoft. FFT definitely wins as my favorite of the genre but TO is a very close second. Also the PSP version of Wild Arms is a decent take on the genre with a few interesting twists that keep it unique. I even bought FFX-II since it was supposed to have a deep job system. It was interesting enough right up until the characters started having to dress in BDSM fetish gear. No problem with sex in my games but it just absolutely destroyed my immersion.

    Personally I love the abiliy to mix and match skills and abilities to create new combinations of characters. Like the Samuari class having abilities that benefit from Magic Strength making it an excellent secondary on Wizards. The games also tend to have deeper stories, or at least better stories then many games in other genres. In other RPG's your character is stuck in whatever role the developer decided for you, whereas here there is much more freedom. I also really appreciate game mechanics that try and mirror reality closely. For instance FFT's weather, terrain, and height effects.

    Solid post. Did you ever play Ogre Battle? I often view that as ancestor of the more modern tactics games. Still probably one of my favorite games of all time.

    Ogre Battle, while a very good game, is really closer to being an RTS. There's not much to tie it to Tactics Ogre, in terms of pure gameplay.

    I have actually played a few of the different Ogre Battle games (assuming you include the Tactics Ogre franchise as a part of it). Ogre Battle 64 is my personal favorite of the direct series. Although it is not really a tactics game I really enjoyed the mix of RTS and RPG gameplay elements. I have played pretty much all of the console and handheld tactic games that have come out in the states. Some I have not seen mentioned so far:

    Suikoden Tactics
    Front Mission Series
    Tactics Ogre: The Knight of Lodis
    Metal Gear Acid

    All of which are pretty solid games if you can get them. The Front Mission series is especially good since it combines two things I love: Tactics gameplay and big ass robots.

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  • Zombie HeroZombie Hero Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    If you can find an old copy of dynasty tactics (1 or 2) it is really worth your time. It's a great game that makes you really emphasize placement of troops.

    Edit: Also, the Heroes of Might and Magic sort of fits (I like V with the AI mod the best, but i think 3 is generally considered the most popular)

    Edit 2: And if HOMM is tactics, then so is king's bounty, and maybe even disciples

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