It's just as selfish for people to scream "I can't use it if it works this way, change it!" but those people don't seem to understand that.
There is a world of difference between "This device is rendered entirely non-functional or has features that aren't able to be used at all" and your statement, which only proves the argument you are trying to disprove entirely correct. Evidentially that was a big enough problem for a large enough group of their potential consumers that they had to change it :P
What? It's still an entertainment device, even if it literally transmogrifies into a brick when you try to unplug it from the internet it's still a nonessential good. Demanding an entertainment device capitulate to your specific living scenario even though plenty of people are happy with it as designed is just as selfish as accepting it as designed because it works for your living scenario and saying screw you to the others who it doesn't work for. The whole reason anyone complains about nonessential goods like this is due to selfishness. If you can't admit that then there's no reason to continue conversing with you.
The main reason by far though is that it tells the internet troll brigade that they can spew bile hard enough to get a company to capitulate, which is the worst fucking thing ever
I am sure you are sick of me pointing this out, but it is very much not the case that the "Internet troll brigade" won much of anything and it was more the "People not putting down actual money on an xbone compared to the PS4 brigade" that actually did win. This argument is a massive non-sequiter, because companies have shown multiple times they can ignore the Internet troll brigade as you call them without much worry.
But when that gets turned into actual dollars? That's when you get reversals and changes like what MS did. Frankly, Microsoft shit the bed themselves and nobody forced them into that (which they have, in fairness actually admitted they did).
As for the response, it is also a completely false argument because its been clear since the reversal that the xbones preorder numbers have improved and you aren't even characterising most people's opinions correctly either. For me, I will certainly buy a PS4 first now (but that is because I have other issues outside of their policy problems they reversed) but I will almost certainly have the idea of buying a xbone in future on the table (notably, when they add the things they currently aren't supporting in my region). Before it was "absolutely never even remotely consider buying one". So that is, in every respect, a dramatic improvement for Microsofts position at least for me.
The only thing that's clear in regards to preorders is that the PS4 seems to have more consoles available, such that the phrase "the PS4's preorders are more than the Xbone's" is true no matter what the speed of those preorders were. Both consoles are sold out at this moment, 4 months before launch, so I sincerely doubt that any "preorder pressure" was the cause of Microsoft's 180. Without concrete information, to the outside world it appears that the extremely strong trolling-style backlash from all aspects of the gaming industry--from people on forums to gaming websites piling on for hits--that they got after E3 was what made them change their minds, and that's enough to embolden the shittiest people into action "next time," whenever that may be.
Also, what does the PS4's service support in your area that the Xbone's won't such that "the things they currently aren't supporting in [your] region" is a negative towards Microsoft but not Sony?
Finally, the main thing that pisses me off about the whole backlash is that no one's putting near as much effort into getting the internet to be a utility. They just shout about how their internet is bad and thus Microsoft shouldn't make the Xbone need internet and then they don't do anything to try and make their internet better, which would not only help them but help everyone in their city, region, county, state and/or country. The internet's basically becoming truly essential but these people are attacking a symptom rather than the disease.
When a massively drastic policy reversal such as this goes down, it's not because a few internet nerds whined really hard. It's because the collective world at large balked.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Finally, the main thing that pisses me off about the whole backlash is that no one's putting near as much effort into getting the internet to be a utility. They just shout about how their internet is bad and thus Microsoft shouldn't make the Xbone need internet and then they don't do anything to try and make their internet better, which would not only help them but help everyone in their city, region, county, state and/or country. The internet's basically becoming truly essential but these people are attacking a symptom rather than the disease.
It happened because people care a whole helluva lot more about a console that functions without insane, arbitrary limitations than they do about having a console do things that consoles have always done just fine without, internet or no internet. Not to say that new internet-related progress is in any way a bad thing, but Microsoft dropped the ball here, not the people who successfully got Microsoft to be less completely moronic.
If Microsoft had been even halfway smart about their online ideas, then they could have had good press for good ideas and for letting people choose what they wanted. Instead, they ended up earning every last iota of their bad press by thinking they could strongarm customers into a laughably iron-fisted system, then panicked and did a total reversal when it turned out people absolutely hated their ideas. And now Microsoft will have to exist in an environment which will be hostile to or suspicious of their notions of "progress".
If Microsoft had spent more time thinking about what would be something enticing that benefited the consumer instead of trying to come up with ways to deal with those bad old used sales while screwing over the consumer, this whole mess would've never happened. Microsoft shit the bed, and now they have to sleep in it. They're the group they deserves your aggravation, not the consumers who all popped up and said "screw your terrible, terrible ideas". And even then, it was Microsoft who made the knee-jerk "oh shit" reaction of pulling everything, instead of having the forethought for some contingency plans beyond throwing it all out the window.
I am pissed at Microsoft, though. I'm pissed at them for firing Orth when he got ganged up on by internet trolls with an axe to grind. I'm pissed at them for presenting something that possibly could have been cool but doing so in the stupidest most anti-consumer way. I'm pissed at them for collapsing quicker than a house of cards in an earthquake, meaning they never truly believed in what they were trying to sell us. Additionally I'm pissed at them for folding so quickly because it empowers the worst people who inhabit the gamer culture to be as loud, hyperbolic, and argumentative as possible going forward.
But I am also pissed off at the people railing against it so hard like Microsoft owed them to make their next console just for them. I'm pissed off at the people who scream at the top of their lungs about something Microsoft's done and then turn around and don't raise a stink when Sony does the exact same thing. I'm pissed at the people who act like anyone who was okay with the original design are merely "underinformed" and will come around to hating it if told how it works properly (doubly pissed if the "how it works" these people describe isn't true). I'm pissed off at the gaming media for flaming the fires so they could get more hits.
So yeah, there's a lot of being pissed to go around: I can be pissed at the people complaining the loudest and be pissed at Microsoft at the same time, it's not an either/or thing.
Honestly curious if you even remember the 599 incident. This backlash isn't because it was Microsoft. It was because they were being stupid by it. Sony got the blunt end when they got hacked and their price reveal and they still get it about the Vita. So please stop acting like a victim.
I don't know where the hell you're getting that I'm acting like a victim, outside of you assuming I'm supporting the Xbone and you're on the other side or something. Do you remember the time frame between Microsoft's press conference and Sony's when people were shitting on MS for their UK/EU/BZ/AU prices as if they were ripping off those countries and then no one saying a thing when Sony's prices came out and they were doing the exact same thing? Or do you remember people during that same timeframe railing on Xbox Live for costing money for multiplayer and then shrugging off Sony adding it to the PS4?
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KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
Additionally I'm pissed at them for folding so quickly because it empowers the worst people who inhabit the gamer culture to be as loud, hyperbolic, and argumentative as possible going forward.
Additionally I'm pissed at them for folding so quickly because it empowers the worst people who inhabit the gamer culture to be as loud, hyperbolic, and argumentative as possible going forward.
Pot. Kettle. Something something.
Personally I see it as a bit of a red herring to start putting all the blame on the media and the 'nerd culture' to Microsoft's reversal. I can tell you now that even after E3, Microsoft would have stood by its ground on all the Xbox One's features. However, when during that time that the two biggest strong arm publishing companies EA and Activision go right out and say to the public that they don't have a problem with second hand sales and didn't force Microsoft's DRM policy was basically the death blow for the infamous DRM. This further highlights other rumours that very few publishers and developers knew of Sony's online and used game policy, and behind the scenes being throughly pissed off about it.
These loud, hyperbolic and argumentative people like to think they were the ones that made the difference in these situation but truthfully very rarely do they ever.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited July 2013
These posts Opty read like you haven't read any of the discussion that has occurred in this thread or the previous one whatsoever frankly.
It's just as selfish for people to scream "I can't use it if it works this way, change it!" but those people don't seem to understand that.
There is a world of difference between "This device is rendered entirely non-functional or has features that aren't able to be used at all" and your statement, which only proves the argument you are trying to disprove entirely correct. Evidentially that was a big enough problem for a large enough group of their potential consumers that they had to change it :P
What? It's still an entertainment device, even if it literally transmogrifies into a brick when you try to unplug it from the internet it's still a nonessential good. Demanding an entertainment device capitulate to your specific living scenario even though plenty of people are happy with it as designed is just as selfish as accepting it as designed because it works for your living scenario and saying screw you to the others who it doesn't work for.
No it's really not, because as endless polls proved, the general reaction across the internet and numerous other points in the debate like Dons infamous "360 is an offline device" showed that it was a small minority who were okay with the way Microsoft were doing things. Additionally, as a consumer and someone who loyally supported Microsoft for many years it is far more insulting to be told "You are no longer a relevant customer to us at all" than be told "Okay, we're not being exclusionary anymore". They changed things, but they didn't change your ability to access and play with the system in any significant way or even the core focus of the Xbone. It still requires the Kinect to function and it still has a major focus on TV and live sporting options in the US. These factors didn't change, but what did change was their inane attempt to control the used market where all major publishers then proceeded to throw them under a bus for and their online authentication.
Saying "I don't believe a large segment of people should be able to use this at all" is far more selfish and you can easily see that in the number of arguments in this thread that boil down to "Screw your opinions, this doesn't affect me so I couldn't care less". The difference being that I can understand people being disappointed that Microsoft changed the main feature a lot of people were thinking could be exciting, which was the family sharing option and I don't call their subsequent response "Internet trolling" for expressing that disappointment - a key difference between how I debate this and you do. Well, except for those on the petition noted earlier that basically are trolling the petition with ridiculous biased and ignorant arguments like "I vote for this so the Xbone can lose!" and similar nonsense.
The fact is, that a minority were happy with microsofts original decisions and that this minority wasn't enough to shift consoles in sufficient numbers of preorders to stop Microsoft realizing they were in for a landslide thumping at the start of the generation. Maybe Microsoft could have gambled and played a long game, but that was just it: A huge gamble and they evidentally weren't thinking they could win that. So they reversed their decision. It's that simple and allow me to discuss why your subsequent arguments that the "Internet troll brigade" as you call us really had shit all to do with this. Diablo 3 and Sim City both demonstrate that vocal groups on the internet who hate DRM rarely succeed at getting it removed until well after the fact. Diablo 3 is routinely criticized for its DRM and so is Sim City - both games have (and still do have) large vocal groups who refuse to buy them or criticize the DRM schemes relentlessly. In fact if you read over the internet you could even get the impression that Diablo 3 was a terrible game that nobody liked, they are in fact that vocal about how disappointed they were with Diablo 3.
And yet neither Diablo 3 or Sim City have removed their DRM, despite being widely criticized by both gamers and journalists for it. Why is that? It's simple, it's because your argument that the internet troll brigade has any significant power just by complaining is complete garbage with no significant evidence. Diablo 3 sold something ridiculous like over 6 million units (probably higher), before the controversy bomb hit Sim City raced away to 1.3 million in sales, albeit collapsing entirely to limp to 1.8 million two months later - but if the DRM had an effect there or not I think is debatable (but I believe the DRM did have an effect). The fact is, unless something is going to affect a companies bottom line they universally don't seem to give a shit about what the internet troll brigade seems to think. The Modern Warfare PC dedicated server boycott or the guys who wanted to boycott Left4Dead2 both demonstrate this aptly.
Only when actual economic terms are put to a publisher does anything get done and sometimes only eventally. Mass Effect 3 fans upset with the ending refused to buy further DLC, raised a ton of money to prove their point with Child's Play and donated hundreds of cupcakes to Bioware. These are tangible measurable effects than digital air on message boards with actual tangible real economic dollars and probably why the extended cut was made (and released for free, among other reasons). If it had just been people complaining on the internet I doubt anything would have happened, after all a lot of people vocally express their disappointment about Dragon Age 2 but you don't see Bioware rewriting the entire game for free there now do you? That's because with DA2 there was no real economic effect on the game from the disappointment or possibly no real incentive to change things, unlike Mass Effect 3. I think Mass Effect 3s ending was the only time I have personally see a developer give in to consumer demand and there is more than ample evidence to suggest a strong economic effect of the disappointment to why they did so. Most other "internet troll brigade" controversies usually have zero to no effect: Because companies generally know it doesn't make a bit of difference for the most part. The only time I can think of an exception is probably how 2k Games changed the XCOM FPS, but that game arguably had a major problem with getting non-XCOM fans interested in the first place and most X-COM fans hated the game. The combination of these things probably led someone to conclude they weren't getting market recognition or favourable word, so probably decided on the changes.
So once again, only when numbers - actual tangible economics - comes into play do we see reversals or significant changes. Microsoft saw the writing on the wall and I don't think it's a disputable that the number of people okay with a console potentially bricking itself without the internet was enough to keep it in compared to those who weren't. Nothing Microsoft did changes your ability to significantly play with the Xbone, I would think this argument of yours above would be much stronger if they had backed down on things like the Kinect. In fact the Kinect is probably a good example, because it gets almost as much hate from the very same "internet troll brigade" it's still there and a mandatory part of the console. Even with it being an immensely unpopular part due to Microsofts involvement in PRISM (data collection for the NSA) and the resulting privacy dispute that has followed from that.
I think it's extremely hard to compare feeling hard done by you can't play games without a disc to a console being completely inoperable when not connected to the internet. One is a minor inconvenience and the other is a substantial reduction in console function, saying otherwise is just showing how utterly unreasonable your position is. As for your final point, it's not at all unreasonable to say "I have been contribuing thousands of dollars to your company in buying games, DLC, an XBOX live subscription and multiple consoles (as the 360 had a terrible failure rate, yet oddly I forgave them for that, funny how it works!) and now you want to say 'buy a 360 for an offline device'"? I'm sorry, but that's the height of hubris from a company that I have supported for many years and if you think it's selfish to tell them that they were permanently* losing one of their previously dedicated customers over it, then I wear the label with pride.
*I made a note to say "Permanently losing" because it doesn't appear clear that while I won't buy an Xbone on release, buying one after release is more than probable now so long as they release good games for the system and bring their actual TV features over to my region. I stated this last page, but it seems to repeatedly get missed - deliberately I feel - in these discussions to try to score points for how terribly unreasonable we are for being negative, when that's actually not true whatsoever.
The only thing that's clear in regards to preorders is that the PS4 seems to have more consoles available, such that the phrase "the PS4's preorders are more than the Xbone's" is true no matter what the speed of those preorders were.
This is incorrect. At the time the PS3 was outselling the Xbone in preorders from any retailer or information we got on the topic in the order of 3:2 or 2:1, with some places being a 3:1 ratio of consoles sold. That's a complete and absolute total hiding no matter how you try to spin it. This is absolutely 100% why the decision was reversed.
Both consoles are sold out at this moment, 4 months before launch, so I sincerely doubt that any "preorder pressure" was the cause of Microsoft's 180. Without concrete information, to the outside world it appears that the extremely strong trolling-style backlash from all aspects of the gaming industry--from people on forums to gaming websites piling on for hits--that they got after E3 was what made them change their minds, and that's enough to embolden the shittiest people into action "next time," whenever that may be.
I like how your attitude is to call people trolls, shitty people and similar all the while trying to claim people who have been discussing the issue based on tangible evidence are unreasonable. All the while ignoring the nuances of the arguments made, what people over this thread and the last have actually said and repeating false assertions already firmly shot down multiple times. I have comprehensively dealt with why this is false above.
Also, what does the PS4's service support in your area that the Xbone's won't such that "the things they currently aren't supporting in [your] region" is a negative towards Microsoft but not Sony?
Microsoft are selling their console on TV and sports features, you might remember them having a 1 hour presentation on the topic in May in fact. These TV and sports features are not available in my region whatsoever and from all intents and purposes, also contribute to a larger OS imprint on the console (3 gigs for the kinect, multiple OSs to run it). So in effect it's a less functional console to me because it's not putting that power into games here, it's putting power into functions that don't work. I'm not exactly sure how you don't understand that the PS4 having these features because they can, but without making it a major focus of the console by implementing aspects that require charging $100 US more for the kinect camera ($50 AU more here). You really have to do some mental gymnastics to try to make the approach anywhere near equivalent, also the vast majority of Sony's TV features don't require a PSN+ subscription while Microsoft basically asks you to pay for XBLG to access these things. That's another important distinction - I don't feel like I am paying for them on the PS4 and strictly speaking, I'm not. It's a gaming console first and foremost, with the other TV stuff an irrelevant side dish. The Xbone makes the TV features a central selling people and then forgets to actually sell them to me. This is pretty straightforward and I really shouldn't have to explain this.
Finally, the main thing that pisses me off about the whole backlash is that no one's putting near as much effort into getting the internet to be a utility. They just shout about how their internet is bad and thus Microsoft shouldn't make the Xbone need internet and then they don't do anything to try and make their internet better, which would not only help them but help everyone in their city, region, county, state and/or country. The internet's basically becoming truly essential but these people are attacking a symptom rather than the disease.
Although I haven't mentioned this in the thread, I am an incredibly vocal and strong proponent locally here in Australia of the National Broadband Network. So if you had read the thread, which I basically don't think you have at all really, you would have seen me make these arguments before about how governments SHOULD be improving infrastructure (but aren't succeeding at it), particularly in how I feel that the internet should be essential and that infrastructure has to catch up. One way we're doing that in Australia is via the NBN, but it relies heavily on Labour winning the next election or the muppets in the liberal party are going to entirely dismantle it with an extremely inefficient option of using fiber to the node - then copper to the houses. This will give a much worse speed and mean we don't get the actual future proofed internet connection we need for the future.
What am I doing? Well, for one thing I am not just writing nonsense on the internet about how much I think the liberals are idiots for their NBN plan compared to Labour. I am actually having my citizenship changed soon to be Australian, which means I can vote in the next election and thus put my vote towards preserving the current NBN plan and subsequently a future-proofed internet. If Labour loses we are certainly going to lose the guaranteed fast and efficient NBN. It matters that much to me I am willing to change the citzenship of my country to vote in the upcoming election. So how about that for doing something? What exactly have you done?
I am pissed at Microsoft, though. I'm pissed at them for firing Orth when he got ganged up on by internet trolls with an axe to grind.
We have discussed this before, but you love ignoring the actual facts about what happened here and seem oblivious to how the actual situation occurred. For one thing, while I am certain Orth was trying to be humorous/sarcastic/funny it didn't come off with the tweets he was making such as "#dealwithit" and implying people in areas with poor internet should move house to get with the times. This immense kind of arrogance and hubris when read literally, which I don't think was his point, really set off the internet trolls and not so much the "axe to grind" part. Orth was very much at fault for portraying an incredibly rude and arrogant attitude, because he basically poured the fuel out and then set it on fire in the first place. That you ignore these aspects to focus on your personal agenda doesn't speak well of the rigor of your arguments or research whatsoever.
Honestly when someone responds to a tweet saying something like 'I don't live in an area with good internet' and they respond with 'Then move to come into the future, it's wonderful' and '#dealwithit', do you really think they are engaging in actual dialog? Sure, he was trying and absolutely failing to be funny, but sarcasm/jokes read poorly on the internet unfortunately.
I'm pissed at them for collapsing quicker than a house of cards in an earthquake, meaning they never truly believed in what they were trying to sell us.
I suspect that this is because certain people in Microsoft only realized how deep a hole they had dug when Sony didn't follow. I'm 100% sure they believed in what they were saying, but they did so making assumptions on how the big publishers and Sony were going to behave. Those assumptions were very very very wrong.
But I am also pissed off at the people railing against it so hard like Microsoft owed them to make their next console just for them.
I don't believe I am owed anything actually, what I did believe was that I had every single right to tell Microsoft what shitty decisions they were making and how much a total diaster fueled by hubris they were getting into. That's exactly what I have done. Believe it or not, there is no real skin off my nose other than losing my 61000 gamerscore, achievements and friends list for switching from MS to Sony. Do I feel like Microsoft shit all over me as a customer and that they basically told me I wasn't worth making their console for? Yeah, I do feel that but in a world with competition it's not so much feeling "owed" anything as "I will just take my money here".
And once again getting right down to the root of this entire conversation: Money talks. Enough people like me decided to abandon Microsoft and pre-order a PS4 instead, which hit home at retail, which hit home with various polls around the internet/papers, which hit home at Microsofts offices when they realized that for once angry internet speak was actually translating to the real world. So they decided to stop the bleeding immediately instead of going through a terrible slow death.
I'm pissed off at the people who scream at the top of their lungs about something Microsoft's done and then turn around and don't raise a stink when Sony does the exact same thing.
You've made this argument before and it proved to be entirely vapid on analysis frankly. I don't want a return to the endless debate over schrodinger's DRM again from when desperation set in to find anything wrong with Sony's approach.
And Sony have done so little of the "Exact same thing" you're just engaging in hyperbole really. Sony did mostly the complete opposite.
I'm pissed at the people who act like anyone who was okay with the original design are merely "underinformed" and will come around to hating it if told how it works properly (doubly pissed if the "how it works" these people describe isn't true).
This is the first valid point you've made in several posts. I entirely agree that was a gigantic goosey thing to do: People CAN be okay with these things! It's not being ignorant to like it whatsoever, because I know for a fact there are people who probably do have very stable good connections who wouldn't be affected by it. This is indisputable fact and many of the Xbone supporters in this thread said so, or they wouldn't be supporting it.
*GASP*.
Do you remember the time frame between Microsoft's press conference and Sony's when people were shitting on MS for their UK/EU/BZ/AU prices as if they were ripping off those countries and then no one saying a thing when Sony's prices came out and they were doing the exact same thing?
Once again your unwillingness to read the thread and assess the opinions of others is shown up clearly. For my part, I never actually complained about the price of the Xbone (or PS4), that was the Brits for the most part because the UK price is a gouge on both systems. At the same time, the PS4 is inherently the cheaper machine by default and being cheaper because of no Kinect gives them more leeway than being price gouged and more expensive. For my part, I only praised the price of both consoles, because frankly I didn't expect the Xbone or PS4 to be the prices they were. It was a pleasant surprise. I expected them to be the usual bullshit of $800+ AU, but they didn't and I feel both are incredibly well priced compared to previous console launches here.
Most NZ/Aus websites I've gone to have noted the Xbone is more expensive for less features on launch here in Australia/NZ, but the fact is that the prices of these consoles are insanely good compared to expectations. Nobody down here I feel is really complaining very hard about the price we got. It's amazing compared to what we're used to. You want gouging? The PS3 was $1300 fucking New Zealand dollars on release - I am not shitting you. That's gouging.
Or do you remember people during that same timeframe railing on Xbox Live for costing money for multiplayer and then shrugging off Sony adding it to the PS4?
I actually defended this in the PS4 thread because I have always been happy about Xbox Live costing money for multiplayer, because it meant MS invested heavily into non-hamster based server technology. The one thing I will say about PSN+ that's negative is that Sony's servers are powered by tiny gerbils on hamster wheels internally. It takes ages to download jack anything and that's because they haven't put the infrastructure behind things like MS did. I have no problem paying for PSN+ if they continue their amazing free game offers and invest the money from charging for MP into better servers for the service.
You seem to be unable to understand that people who disliked the DRM, kinect and other things can have considerable gradients of opinion on nearly every one of these points - instead lumping everyone you disagree with into a nebulous category of "Internet trolls" and "Shitty people" without bothering to consider or understand what many of them have actually wrote. That, TBH is the really insulting part of your arguments.
I'm going to lock this thread now because
A. It's a huge clusterfuck
B. Y'all are talking about the same shit you were talking about a month ago and no resolution is in sight
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The only thing that's clear in regards to preorders is that the PS4 seems to have more consoles available, such that the phrase "the PS4's preorders are more than the Xbone's" is true no matter what the speed of those preorders were. Both consoles are sold out at this moment, 4 months before launch, so I sincerely doubt that any "preorder pressure" was the cause of Microsoft's 180. Without concrete information, to the outside world it appears that the extremely strong trolling-style backlash from all aspects of the gaming industry--from people on forums to gaming websites piling on for hits--that they got after E3 was what made them change their minds, and that's enough to embolden the shittiest people into action "next time," whenever that may be.
Also, what does the PS4's service support in your area that the Xbone's won't such that "the things they currently aren't supporting in [your] region" is a negative towards Microsoft but not Sony?
Finally, the main thing that pisses me off about the whole backlash is that no one's putting near as much effort into getting the internet to be a utility. They just shout about how their internet is bad and thus Microsoft shouldn't make the Xbone need internet and then they don't do anything to try and make their internet better, which would not only help them but help everyone in their city, region, county, state and/or country. The internet's basically becoming truly essential but these people are attacking a symptom rather than the disease.
It happened because people care a whole helluva lot more about a console that functions without insane, arbitrary limitations than they do about having a console do things that consoles have always done just fine without, internet or no internet. Not to say that new internet-related progress is in any way a bad thing, but Microsoft dropped the ball here, not the people who successfully got Microsoft to be less completely moronic.
If Microsoft had been even halfway smart about their online ideas, then they could have had good press for good ideas and for letting people choose what they wanted. Instead, they ended up earning every last iota of their bad press by thinking they could strongarm customers into a laughably iron-fisted system, then panicked and did a total reversal when it turned out people absolutely hated their ideas. And now Microsoft will have to exist in an environment which will be hostile to or suspicious of their notions of "progress".
If Microsoft had spent more time thinking about what would be something enticing that benefited the consumer instead of trying to come up with ways to deal with those bad old used sales while screwing over the consumer, this whole mess would've never happened. Microsoft shit the bed, and now they have to sleep in it. They're the group they deserves your aggravation, not the consumers who all popped up and said "screw your terrible, terrible ideas". And even then, it was Microsoft who made the knee-jerk "oh shit" reaction of pulling everything, instead of having the forethought for some contingency plans beyond throwing it all out the window.
But I am also pissed off at the people railing against it so hard like Microsoft owed them to make their next console just for them. I'm pissed off at the people who scream at the top of their lungs about something Microsoft's done and then turn around and don't raise a stink when Sony does the exact same thing. I'm pissed at the people who act like anyone who was okay with the original design are merely "underinformed" and will come around to hating it if told how it works properly (doubly pissed if the "how it works" these people describe isn't true). I'm pissed off at the gaming media for flaming the fires so they could get more hits.
So yeah, there's a lot of being pissed to go around: I can be pissed at the people complaining the loudest and be pissed at Microsoft at the same time, it's not an either/or thing.
Pot. Kettle. Something something.
Personally I see it as a bit of a red herring to start putting all the blame on the media and the 'nerd culture' to Microsoft's reversal. I can tell you now that even after E3, Microsoft would have stood by its ground on all the Xbox One's features. However, when during that time that the two biggest strong arm publishing companies EA and Activision go right out and say to the public that they don't have a problem with second hand sales and didn't force Microsoft's DRM policy was basically the death blow for the infamous DRM. This further highlights other rumours that very few publishers and developers knew of Sony's online and used game policy, and behind the scenes being throughly pissed off about it.
These loud, hyperbolic and argumentative people like to think they were the ones that made the difference in these situation but truthfully very rarely do they ever.
No it's really not, because as endless polls proved, the general reaction across the internet and numerous other points in the debate like Dons infamous "360 is an offline device" showed that it was a small minority who were okay with the way Microsoft were doing things. Additionally, as a consumer and someone who loyally supported Microsoft for many years it is far more insulting to be told "You are no longer a relevant customer to us at all" than be told "Okay, we're not being exclusionary anymore". They changed things, but they didn't change your ability to access and play with the system in any significant way or even the core focus of the Xbone. It still requires the Kinect to function and it still has a major focus on TV and live sporting options in the US. These factors didn't change, but what did change was their inane attempt to control the used market where all major publishers then proceeded to throw them under a bus for and their online authentication.
Saying "I don't believe a large segment of people should be able to use this at all" is far more selfish and you can easily see that in the number of arguments in this thread that boil down to "Screw your opinions, this doesn't affect me so I couldn't care less". The difference being that I can understand people being disappointed that Microsoft changed the main feature a lot of people were thinking could be exciting, which was the family sharing option and I don't call their subsequent response "Internet trolling" for expressing that disappointment - a key difference between how I debate this and you do. Well, except for those on the petition noted earlier that basically are trolling the petition with ridiculous biased and ignorant arguments like "I vote for this so the Xbone can lose!" and similar nonsense.
The fact is, that a minority were happy with microsofts original decisions and that this minority wasn't enough to shift consoles in sufficient numbers of preorders to stop Microsoft realizing they were in for a landslide thumping at the start of the generation. Maybe Microsoft could have gambled and played a long game, but that was just it: A huge gamble and they evidentally weren't thinking they could win that. So they reversed their decision. It's that simple and allow me to discuss why your subsequent arguments that the "Internet troll brigade" as you call us really had shit all to do with this. Diablo 3 and Sim City both demonstrate that vocal groups on the internet who hate DRM rarely succeed at getting it removed until well after the fact. Diablo 3 is routinely criticized for its DRM and so is Sim City - both games have (and still do have) large vocal groups who refuse to buy them or criticize the DRM schemes relentlessly. In fact if you read over the internet you could even get the impression that Diablo 3 was a terrible game that nobody liked, they are in fact that vocal about how disappointed they were with Diablo 3.
And yet neither Diablo 3 or Sim City have removed their DRM, despite being widely criticized by both gamers and journalists for it. Why is that? It's simple, it's because your argument that the internet troll brigade has any significant power just by complaining is complete garbage with no significant evidence. Diablo 3 sold something ridiculous like over 6 million units (probably higher), before the controversy bomb hit Sim City raced away to 1.3 million in sales, albeit collapsing entirely to limp to 1.8 million two months later - but if the DRM had an effect there or not I think is debatable (but I believe the DRM did have an effect). The fact is, unless something is going to affect a companies bottom line they universally don't seem to give a shit about what the internet troll brigade seems to think. The Modern Warfare PC dedicated server boycott or the guys who wanted to boycott Left4Dead2 both demonstrate this aptly.
Only when actual economic terms are put to a publisher does anything get done and sometimes only eventally. Mass Effect 3 fans upset with the ending refused to buy further DLC, raised a ton of money to prove their point with Child's Play and donated hundreds of cupcakes to Bioware. These are tangible measurable effects than digital air on message boards with actual tangible real economic dollars and probably why the extended cut was made (and released for free, among other reasons). If it had just been people complaining on the internet I doubt anything would have happened, after all a lot of people vocally express their disappointment about Dragon Age 2 but you don't see Bioware rewriting the entire game for free there now do you? That's because with DA2 there was no real economic effect on the game from the disappointment or possibly no real incentive to change things, unlike Mass Effect 3. I think Mass Effect 3s ending was the only time I have personally see a developer give in to consumer demand and there is more than ample evidence to suggest a strong economic effect of the disappointment to why they did so. Most other "internet troll brigade" controversies usually have zero to no effect: Because companies generally know it doesn't make a bit of difference for the most part. The only time I can think of an exception is probably how 2k Games changed the XCOM FPS, but that game arguably had a major problem with getting non-XCOM fans interested in the first place and most X-COM fans hated the game. The combination of these things probably led someone to conclude they weren't getting market recognition or favourable word, so probably decided on the changes.
So once again, only when numbers - actual tangible economics - comes into play do we see reversals or significant changes. Microsoft saw the writing on the wall and I don't think it's a disputable that the number of people okay with a console potentially bricking itself without the internet was enough to keep it in compared to those who weren't. Nothing Microsoft did changes your ability to significantly play with the Xbone, I would think this argument of yours above would be much stronger if they had backed down on things like the Kinect. In fact the Kinect is probably a good example, because it gets almost as much hate from the very same "internet troll brigade" it's still there and a mandatory part of the console. Even with it being an immensely unpopular part due to Microsofts involvement in PRISM (data collection for the NSA) and the resulting privacy dispute that has followed from that.
I think it's extremely hard to compare feeling hard done by you can't play games without a disc to a console being completely inoperable when not connected to the internet. One is a minor inconvenience and the other is a substantial reduction in console function, saying otherwise is just showing how utterly unreasonable your position is. As for your final point, it's not at all unreasonable to say "I have been contribuing thousands of dollars to your company in buying games, DLC, an XBOX live subscription and multiple consoles (as the 360 had a terrible failure rate, yet oddly I forgave them for that, funny how it works!) and now you want to say 'buy a 360 for an offline device'"? I'm sorry, but that's the height of hubris from a company that I have supported for many years and if you think it's selfish to tell them that they were permanently* losing one of their previously dedicated customers over it, then I wear the label with pride.
*I made a note to say "Permanently losing" because it doesn't appear clear that while I won't buy an Xbone on release, buying one after release is more than probable now so long as they release good games for the system and bring their actual TV features over to my region. I stated this last page, but it seems to repeatedly get missed - deliberately I feel - in these discussions to try to score points for how terribly unreasonable we are for being negative, when that's actually not true whatsoever.
This is incorrect. At the time the PS3 was outselling the Xbone in preorders from any retailer or information we got on the topic in the order of 3:2 or 2:1, with some places being a 3:1 ratio of consoles sold. That's a complete and absolute total hiding no matter how you try to spin it. This is absolutely 100% why the decision was reversed.
I like how your attitude is to call people trolls, shitty people and similar all the while trying to claim people who have been discussing the issue based on tangible evidence are unreasonable. All the while ignoring the nuances of the arguments made, what people over this thread and the last have actually said and repeating false assertions already firmly shot down multiple times. I have comprehensively dealt with why this is false above.
Microsoft are selling their console on TV and sports features, you might remember them having a 1 hour presentation on the topic in May in fact. These TV and sports features are not available in my region whatsoever and from all intents and purposes, also contribute to a larger OS imprint on the console (3 gigs for the kinect, multiple OSs to run it). So in effect it's a less functional console to me because it's not putting that power into games here, it's putting power into functions that don't work. I'm not exactly sure how you don't understand that the PS4 having these features because they can, but without making it a major focus of the console by implementing aspects that require charging $100 US more for the kinect camera ($50 AU more here). You really have to do some mental gymnastics to try to make the approach anywhere near equivalent, also the vast majority of Sony's TV features don't require a PSN+ subscription while Microsoft basically asks you to pay for XBLG to access these things. That's another important distinction - I don't feel like I am paying for them on the PS4 and strictly speaking, I'm not. It's a gaming console first and foremost, with the other TV stuff an irrelevant side dish. The Xbone makes the TV features a central selling people and then forgets to actually sell them to me. This is pretty straightforward and I really shouldn't have to explain this.
Although I haven't mentioned this in the thread, I am an incredibly vocal and strong proponent locally here in Australia of the National Broadband Network. So if you had read the thread, which I basically don't think you have at all really, you would have seen me make these arguments before about how governments SHOULD be improving infrastructure (but aren't succeeding at it), particularly in how I feel that the internet should be essential and that infrastructure has to catch up. One way we're doing that in Australia is via the NBN, but it relies heavily on Labour winning the next election or the muppets in the liberal party are going to entirely dismantle it with an extremely inefficient option of using fiber to the node - then copper to the houses. This will give a much worse speed and mean we don't get the actual future proofed internet connection we need for the future.
What am I doing? Well, for one thing I am not just writing nonsense on the internet about how much I think the liberals are idiots for their NBN plan compared to Labour. I am actually having my citizenship changed soon to be Australian, which means I can vote in the next election and thus put my vote towards preserving the current NBN plan and subsequently a future-proofed internet. If Labour loses we are certainly going to lose the guaranteed fast and efficient NBN. It matters that much to me I am willing to change the citzenship of my country to vote in the upcoming election. So how about that for doing something? What exactly have you done?
We have discussed this before, but you love ignoring the actual facts about what happened here and seem oblivious to how the actual situation occurred. For one thing, while I am certain Orth was trying to be humorous/sarcastic/funny it didn't come off with the tweets he was making such as "#dealwithit" and implying people in areas with poor internet should move house to get with the times. This immense kind of arrogance and hubris when read literally, which I don't think was his point, really set off the internet trolls and not so much the "axe to grind" part. Orth was very much at fault for portraying an incredibly rude and arrogant attitude, because he basically poured the fuel out and then set it on fire in the first place. That you ignore these aspects to focus on your personal agenda doesn't speak well of the rigor of your arguments or research whatsoever.
Honestly when someone responds to a tweet saying something like 'I don't live in an area with good internet' and they respond with 'Then move to come into the future, it's wonderful' and '#dealwithit', do you really think they are engaging in actual dialog? Sure, he was trying and absolutely failing to be funny, but sarcasm/jokes read poorly on the internet unfortunately.
I suspect that this is because certain people in Microsoft only realized how deep a hole they had dug when Sony didn't follow. I'm 100% sure they believed in what they were saying, but they did so making assumptions on how the big publishers and Sony were going to behave. Those assumptions were very very very wrong.
I don't believe I am owed anything actually, what I did believe was that I had every single right to tell Microsoft what shitty decisions they were making and how much a total diaster fueled by hubris they were getting into. That's exactly what I have done. Believe it or not, there is no real skin off my nose other than losing my 61000 gamerscore, achievements and friends list for switching from MS to Sony. Do I feel like Microsoft shit all over me as a customer and that they basically told me I wasn't worth making their console for? Yeah, I do feel that but in a world with competition it's not so much feeling "owed" anything as "I will just take my money here".
And once again getting right down to the root of this entire conversation: Money talks. Enough people like me decided to abandon Microsoft and pre-order a PS4 instead, which hit home at retail, which hit home with various polls around the internet/papers, which hit home at Microsofts offices when they realized that for once angry internet speak was actually translating to the real world. So they decided to stop the bleeding immediately instead of going through a terrible slow death.
You've made this argument before and it proved to be entirely vapid on analysis frankly. I don't want a return to the endless debate over schrodinger's DRM again from when desperation set in to find anything wrong with Sony's approach.
And Sony have done so little of the "Exact same thing" you're just engaging in hyperbole really. Sony did mostly the complete opposite.
This is the first valid point you've made in several posts. I entirely agree that was a gigantic goosey thing to do: People CAN be okay with these things! It's not being ignorant to like it whatsoever, because I know for a fact there are people who probably do have very stable good connections who wouldn't be affected by it. This is indisputable fact and many of the Xbone supporters in this thread said so, or they wouldn't be supporting it.
*GASP*.
Once again your unwillingness to read the thread and assess the opinions of others is shown up clearly. For my part, I never actually complained about the price of the Xbone (or PS4), that was the Brits for the most part because the UK price is a gouge on both systems. At the same time, the PS4 is inherently the cheaper machine by default and being cheaper because of no Kinect gives them more leeway than being price gouged and more expensive. For my part, I only praised the price of both consoles, because frankly I didn't expect the Xbone or PS4 to be the prices they were. It was a pleasant surprise. I expected them to be the usual bullshit of $800+ AU, but they didn't and I feel both are incredibly well priced compared to previous console launches here.
Most NZ/Aus websites I've gone to have noted the Xbone is more expensive for less features on launch here in Australia/NZ, but the fact is that the prices of these consoles are insanely good compared to expectations. Nobody down here I feel is really complaining very hard about the price we got. It's amazing compared to what we're used to. You want gouging? The PS3 was $1300 fucking New Zealand dollars on release - I am not shitting you. That's gouging.
I actually defended this in the PS4 thread because I have always been happy about Xbox Live costing money for multiplayer, because it meant MS invested heavily into non-hamster based server technology. The one thing I will say about PSN+ that's negative is that Sony's servers are powered by tiny gerbils on hamster wheels internally. It takes ages to download jack anything and that's because they haven't put the infrastructure behind things like MS did. I have no problem paying for PSN+ if they continue their amazing free game offers and invest the money from charging for MP into better servers for the service.
You seem to be unable to understand that people who disliked the DRM, kinect and other things can have considerable gradients of opinion on nearly every one of these points - instead lumping everyone you disagree with into a nebulous category of "Internet trolls" and "Shitty people" without bothering to consider or understand what many of them have actually wrote. That, TBH is the really insulting part of your arguments.
A. It's a huge clusterfuck
B. Y'all are talking about the same shit you were talking about a month ago and no resolution is in sight
Geth, close the thread.